Talk:Baralong Incident

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Baralong Incident article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Germany      (Rated Start-Class) Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Military history WikiProject     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met Associated task forces (general topics): Maritime warfare task force Associated task forces (nations and regions): British military history task force German military history task force Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): World War I task force WikiProject Irish Maritime This article is within the scope of WikiProject Irish Maritime. WikiProject Irish Maritime is an attempt to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of Maritime, seafaring and inland waterways articles associated with the island of Ireland. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Ireland Portal WikiProject Shipwrecks     (Rated Start-Class) This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Shipwrecks, an attempt to improve coverage of shipwreck-related topics. See also the parent WikiProject, WikiProject Disaster Management. If you plan to work on this article for an extended period of time, please indicate what you are doing on the Project's talk page. NB: Assessment ratings and other indicators given below are used by the Project in prioritising and managing its workload. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the Project's importance scale. Shipwreck-related priority open tasks: To Do Shipwrecks Clean up typos Improve grammar Add any additions if needed Discuss desired additions Cattewater Wreck Needs expansion Done Shipwrecks Re-wrote the first paragraph Cleaned up Types of Shipwrecks it felt a bit jumbled Cattewater Wreck Started the article

"the "Baralong Incident" was used to justify increased cruelty at sea both during World War One and after."

could we please rephrase this?

The reference that as added intially, was added with no content- which means it could not be a 'reference'. I certainly approve of the re-write now however, with all the details etc. included with the addition of a reference. Nautical 06:01, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 'Baralong' and 'Wiarda' 1.1 Notes 2 Liverpudlians 3 "It should be noted" 4 London Treaty

[edit] 'Baralong' and 'Wiarda'

According to Conway's ^[1], the Q-ship that sank U-41 was HMS 'Wyandra', not 'Wiarda' as the article has it. Conway's makes no mention of 'Wyandra' being the same ship as 'Baralong', although this could simply be an omission (the section on Q-ships is somewhat perfunctory). John Moore 309 21:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

May I refer you to the Spring 2006 edition of Iris na Mara.^[2]

The Baralong was renamed Whyalla and as such sank U-41 September 23 1915.

Then they changed it, again, to Manica. In 1922 she was sold to Japan and was renames Kyokuto Maru and later Shinsei Maru

ps - we have a John Moore in the MII - any connection? ClemMcGann 22:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

1. ^ Conway’s All the World’s Fighting Ships, 1906-1921 (Conway Maritime Press, 1985) ISBN: 0-85177-245-5)
2. ^ Iris na Mara, Spring 2006, issn 1649-3249

[edit] Liverpudlians

The section The Incident, 19 August 1915 ends with the sentence

The four were killed by the Liverpudlians.

However, nowhere in the article is Liverpool ever mentioned. This should be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AdrianLozano (talk • contribs) 13:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. When I read the article for the first time, I was sure this was vandalism. However, the "Liverpudlians" term is in the article since the first version. It is very confusing. HagenUK (talk) 19:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "It should be noted"

I am reading this article for the first time. It seems to me the current first paragraph and last paragraph contradict one another.

third paragraph

twelfth paragraph

On August 19, 1915, about 100 miles south of Queenstown, Ireland, U-27, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Wegener, <large>stopped the British steamer Nicosian in accordance with the rules laid down by the London Treaty.</large> A boarding party of six from the U-27 discovered that Nicosian was carrying munitions and 250 American mules intended for the use of the British army in France. They ordered the freighter's crew and passengers into lifeboats, which soon pulled away. They were preparing to sink the freighter.

It should be noted submarine crews on both sides were not treated well since they did not generally take prisoners of ships they sunk either, as there were no accommodations on board a submarine for this. <large>In Unrestricted submarine warfare</large> survival would depend on other ships being around to rescue, or on occasion, if it were possible, to get into lifeboats. Poor treatment of an enemy who used what was viewed as a more cruel weapon was common, for example, the soldiers who operated flame-throwers in WWI were many times not taken prisoner, but killed, to discourage the use of it.

So, if the Germans had fully complied with international law, how could this possibly justify the British justify breaking international law themselves?

I haven't read about this incident. But I read a book on the Lusitania, which explained that Germany had fully complied with international law in early years of the war. It quoted correspondence between Fisher, the First Sea Lord, and a high ranking German officer, where Fisher acknowledged Germany's compliance. Surprisingly, these two officers, who had remained friends for decades, even as tensions rose between their nations, continued to engage in a warm, cordial, personal correspondence, even as their two nations slugged it out. Fisher expressed admiration for his opposite number forbearance, for continuing to comply with international law, when he (Fisher) would have abandoned it much earlier.

In some of the articles I work on, I find contributors inserting paragraphs that start with similar wording to the twelth paragraph here. Last night I excised a POV paragraph of editorializing that started with: *It should be born in mind..." If a verifiable, authoritative, reliable source noted it, by all means cite that source. quote that source, paraphrase that source, with a reference. But, IMO, without a reliable source this paragraph does not comply with the policy of neutrality, and the the policy of no original research.

FWIW vessels like the Lusitania were routinely covertly carrying munitions, making them legitimate targets. The Lusitania sank quickly, and it is now generally acknowledged that it was carrying munitions, and was a legitimate target to be sunk on sight. The Germans had published a specific warning to Lusitania passengers that they knew it was covertly carrying munitions, and was a legitimate target.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 18:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] London Treaty

The link to 'London Treaty' in the article goes to this disambiguation page, and it's not clear to me which of the various treaties of London it's referring to. Anyone got an idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olaf Davis (talk • contribs) 17:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)