Talk:Barack Obama, Sr.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Articles for deletion
This page was previously nominated for deletion.
Please see prior discussions before considering re-nomination:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

Contents

[edit] Recreated version

Please note that this page had been in the past been redirected per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barack Hussein Obama Sr. A new good-faith draft was created at Barack Obama Sr. and has now been moved here as history merge per a request at WP:RM, but also so that its merits as standalone article can be discussed. --Tikiwont (talk) 16:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] intro

I am not convinced that this should be a separate article, but if it is we need to be clear that his notability is strictly as Barack Obama's father. The lede has been reworked to reflect that - his position as an economist for the Kenyan government would not yield an article, so it is not the lead sentence. Also I included "absent" because he did not raise his son, and was not present for his growing up - they saw each other only once after he left the family. Tvoz |talk 05:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The word "absent" seems out of place to me in the lede. It seems too soon in the article to get into the amount of time he spent with his son (which wasn't much, but wasn't nothing either). --Allen (talk) 21:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
It was pretty close to nothing; there was no ongoing relationship at all after he left when son was 2 yrs old. That's absent, and why I think his notabilty for a separate article is questionable. Tvoz |talk 05:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
"biological father" might be better than "absent father". This precisely defines the relationship by distinguishing the fellow from Obama's stepfather; in American English to have an "absent father" implies that the child does not have a father in the house (which Obama did ... a stepfather) and also has an inappropriately judgmental ring to it. rewinn (talk) 05:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe Obama himself refers to his biological father as being "absent" - it's not my word, nor am I am being judgmental about it. The problem with "biological" alone is it doesn't speak to the salient point of whether or not he was a part of his son's life, which I think should be in the lede. (Also, note that Barack only had a stepfather "in the house" for the few years he lived in Indonesia - for the majority of his growing up there was no father, biological or step, in his house or in his life.) I have no problem with using "biological", but I'd like to also get in that lede sentence the fact that Obama Sr. was not a part of the son's life after age 2. The details of Obama Sr's life beyond Barack from age 0-2 should be seen in that context - which I think "absent" expresses. So I'd be fine with "absent biological father" or anything else that gets at what I'm talking about. Tvoz |talk 16:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Bioglogical father is correct. The fact that biological had to be added implies that he was absent. In the for what it's worth department he did have a male in the household from age 10 on when his white maternal grandparents Stanley Dunham and [Madelyn Dunham]] raised him in Hawaii while his mother was off globe trotting. Americasroof (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say there was no male in the house, I responded to your the incorrect statement that his stepfather was the "father" in the house, that's all. And adding "biological" implies that there was another father, which was only true for a short time. Tvoz |talk 23:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
"Biological father" doesn't seem right to me either. I usually hear that term used in the context of adoption, when the person referred to as "father" is different from the "biological father." I think the lede should refer to Obama Sr. simply as the senator's "father," which is what his son usually calls him. --Allen (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I said "absent" in the first place. Tvoz |talk 23:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's separate the two words. Tvoz, I can't tell whether you agree with me that "biological" should go... what do you think? As for "absent," I am okay with the new sentence you inserted... I wouldn't have put it in the lede myself, but it is factual and neutral and gets the point across. Can we therefore remove the word "absent?" I think it is too subjective and I agree with Rewinn that it has a judgmental ring to it. --Allen (talk) 03:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm o.k. the way it's written. Here's another example Leslie Lynch King, Sr, the father of Gerald Ford. I am curious if the father even paid a dime of child support.Americasroof (talk) 07:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[out] Allen - I can go either way. If you and others feel strongly about it, it's ok with me to remove either or both "absent" and "biological", but only if the sentence (or a similar one) remains in the lede about his not being there to raise Barack. I think this is important to be included in the lede as his paternity is the only reason the article exists at all, but his notability is questionable to me seeing as how little he actually had to do with Barack. Hope this clarifies - it's late, so I can't tell if it's coherent enough. Tvoz |talk 07:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Tvoz. I'm removing "absent" and "biological" and leaving your new sentence. Americasroof, you said you were okay with the way it is now but you didn't say if you'd be okay with the change I'm making. Let us know if you're not. I think the Gerald Ford case is different, because our article suggests he was informally adopted by Gerald Ford, Sr... meaning "biological father" is useful for distinguishing King from Ford's adoptive (sort of) father. --Allen (talk) 14:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead still establishes that he was not in the picture for that long so I'm o.k. with it. Americasroof (talk) 15:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

While this fellow is not the most notable person in the world, he *is* the main subject of a bestselling book by a leading political figure. Whether reasonable or not, the interest in him seems far to exceed that in the parents of other celebrities, e.g. Bill Clinton's father. Thus I would suggest he is sufficiently notable for his own article. rewinn (talk) 05:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if Obama Jr. is never elected President, his father is notable on two accounts (1) he's the subject of the # 1 bestseller on college campus bookstores (according to the Chronicle of Higher Education) and (2) he was the senior economist of a national government (Kenya). Bearian (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There are many books written by notable people about people who aren't very notable. And although Barack is notable, nobody talks about the book that mentions his father. His best known work is his other book "The Audacity of Hope". Simply being talked about in a book or being mentioned by the media is something many people have gone through, many of which aren't considered notable enough to be given an article. He should be mentioned in the artcles Barack Obama and other minor articles relaed to him, but not given his own. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 02:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I actually think that there's no real need to have this separate article, but it is simply not true that "no one talks about the book that mentions his father" - it more than mentions his father, it is about his father and what he thinks about his father and his childhood, and it is talked about a great deal. Tvoz/talk 03:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm well aware of that, I think the title and article imply that he's a major part of this book, and I wasn't trying to make light of that. What I'm saying is that this guy is already talked about in other articles where it's right for him to be included, but that there is no need for him to have his own article. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 05:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nyangoma-Kogelo

This article claims that Nyangoma-Kogelo is in Siaya District, while Barack Obama claims that is in Bondo District. Which one is it? Bash Kash (talk) 04:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you believe both are correct? At the time of Senior's birth Kyongoma-Kogelo was in Siaya District, but since then it has changed to Bondo District. --Bobblehead (rants) 03:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, I figured that. :-) Which one should we use on Wikipedia? (for consistency) Bash Kash (talk) 05:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
We can do both, using "(now in....)" rewinn (talk) 15:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] delete article

I propose this article be deleted. He is not notable. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 01:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Support deleting. Not notable and there is no reason to think the person this article is about will be notable in the future WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Being mentioned a few times by the media doesn't make you notable. I'm using this same argument for all biography articles being nominated for deletion that are related to Barack Obama, it's clear that Michelle Obama is the only notable person given an article, the others all seem to be fluff. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Note - ObamaGirlmachine (above) is a problematic and potentially disruptive new WP:SPA account that has been canvassing others to come to this and other pages in an attempt to delete articles for Obama family members. Suggest speedy closure if these articles are nominated. - Wikidemo (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Since the religion field in the infobox was filled out yesterday with "Islam",[1] "Atheism" has been added,[2] taken off,[3] re-added,[4] and now "Islam" has been taken off.[5] Does anyone know what he was at the time of his death? I know he was raised in Islam, but was apparently an Atheist by the time Barack was born, but not sure if he shifted back to Islam when he returned to Kenya. --Bobblehead (rants) 22:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)