User talk:Bandurist/Archive 1

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[edit] З Різдвом Христовим і з Новим Роком!

DDima presents to you this wonderful Christmas tree of Kiev (Kyiv) and wishes you an upcoming Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! З Різдвом Христовим і з Новим Роком! —dima/s-ko/ 16:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
DDima presents to you this wonderful Christmas tree of Kiev (Kyiv) and wishes you an upcoming Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
З Різдвом Христовим і з Новим Роком! —dima/s-ko/ 16:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome

Hello, Bandurist/Archive 1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.

If you are interested in Ukraine-related themes, you may want to check out the Ukraine Portal, particularly the Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board. The New article announcements board is probably the most important and the most attended one. Please don't forget to anounce there the new articles you create. Adding both boards to your watchlist is probably a good idea.

Finally, in case you are interested, similar boards exist at Russia portal as many editors contribute to topics related to both countries. The respective boards there are: Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board. Of course there are also many other portals at Wikipedia or you may just get right into editing.

Again, welcome!--Irpen 06:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good work, Вікторе! --Lute88 01:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bandurist! Thanks a lot for all your help. Please WP:be bold in making corrections and improvements, especially in topics where you are specialist. One word of caution though, please be a little careful with creating of categories and stub templates and in the beginning better ask for advise. The reasons for that may be a little to long to explain, but, it all comes down, to the difficulty to correct and undo a mistake in the cat creation. Thanks again for your work. Also you may want to check out the Blind musicians article. Thanks, --Irpen 06:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks. I have been primarilly working in the Ukrainian vesion of the Wikipedia, basically putting in all the information I have aquired for my doctorate, and am now porting over most of it into the English version. Bit by bit. Thanks for the support and advice. I really am amazed by the whole project.Bandurist 15:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Praise and condemnation

[edit] Kiev/Kyiv

Please note that WP:NC(UE) states that the English version of the name should be used in preference over other names. Hence whilst its not incorrect to use Kyiv, it is highly recommended that its use be avoided, and certainly when changed to Kiev not reverted. However doing the opposite is violating a wiki guideline, so I hope you would not be offended that I reverted your edit to Babi Yar (though kept other corrections). Same goes for Kiev Bandurist Capella and Kiev academic style as article titles should definitely follow the policy. If you disagree with me, then please raise it at Talk:Kiev. Please don't take this personal, but the Kiev/Kyiv issue is certainly not new, and I don't blame anyone for disagreeing with me, but it received quite a bit of discussion and the reasons for Kiev are on the talk page of the city. --Kuban Cossack 22:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Greetings. A far as I know the current English version for the Ukrainian Capital is Kyiv. Kiev is the Russian transcription and is being phased out. I would like that reflected in the articles that I have done. I will refrain from changing Kiev to Kyiv, but I would appreciate not having Kyiv changed to Kiev in my articles.

By the way, I spent a couple of weeks in Krasnodar touring with the Kuban Kozak Choir, Viktor Zakharkchenko and Yuri Bulavin performing in a number of Stanytsias, festivals and on television in Krasnodar. How come you don't speak Ukrainian. I heard more Ukrainian in the Kuban than in Kyiv in 1991. Bandurist 05:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well its true that our balachka is a hybrid between 17th century Malorossian and modern Russian. However its a dialect with no grammatical structure and actually if you listned closely would contain words that are not even found in Russian or Ukrainian, particulary amongst those living in the Karachay-Cherkessia (the north - is Cossack homeland). I am from Central Kuban west of Kransnodar (we call it Катькодар). However politics seem to influence the choice, and I might dissapoint you, but we Cossacks are still loyal to the Pereyaslav Treaty that our ancestors signed more than 350 years ago. And we are proud of it. So if Ukraine is going to turn its back on us, well what can I say so be it, but in the current political spectrum, we are less likely to give an oath of eternal loyalty to Ukraine than Lviv will to Moscow... I for one am proud to be born Russian (although I must stress that we Cossacks:Kuban, Don, Terek have never actually considered ourselves ethnically Great Russians, but instead consider ourselves as a separate Ruthenian entity - Cossacks (Казаки). I will not blame you, but I think that its wrong to assume that there are only three East-Slavic super ethnicities, instead there are a dozen of them, and Great, Small and White Ruthenians only form the largest groups, in addition there are Pomorians, Lipovians, Cossacks, Rusyns and so on... As for the genetic composition...my mother is from Polotsk, and combine with all the war brides that were brought back, plus interhost marriages... ethnically the Cossack population of Cuban is a Kasha...but spiritually...we made up the Emperor's private guard and are now the largest part of the Presidential Guard in the Kremlin... that says something about our loyalty... In the Second World War, whilst some of our Don brothers chose to collaborate, we fought for our motherland here is my grandfather third row fourth from the left at the famous victory parade in 1945, (actually he can play a Bandura at 82 years of age).
Now then wrt to Kiev/Kyiv then really its a parrallel to Moscow/Moskva. The Russian name of the city would be Kiyev or Kijev based on the transliteration, and nobody is using that one anywhere. Think of it as Dnieper river. In Russian its Dnepr in Ukrainian its Dnipro... in English its Dnieper. Hence we use that throughout. Same with Kiev/Kiyev/Kyiv. Only the first one is an English word, and unfortunately WP:NC(UE) leaves little space for the alternative names. Why? Because think about the audience reading wikipedia, the majority of whom are only familiar with the words they see, and you cannot deny that in the course of 15 years there is a still an absoloute majority of people using Kiev over all other versions and its irrelelvant if Kiev is derived from Kiyev or not. I mean I am not offended if someone calls my capital Moscow and I don't even know on what language was that based on.
Anyway good job on the bandura related, but don't get too picky with such minor tweaks. I myself am into User:Kuban kazak/Metro Metro. Like Vyrlytsia or Zoloti Vorota. --Kuban Cossack 18:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words but I disagree regarding the use of Kyiv.

  • With regard to a comparison with say words Moskva, Varshava, Roma, Praha - English doesn't like the a ending and tends to go for a closed syllable ending for the names of Cities.
  • Kyiv come from Kiy - the apparent founder of Kyiv. The -iv ending is the Ukrainian pronounciation of the yat'. Thus we have Chernihiv, Lviv, Mykolayiv, Zhdaniv. Once upon a time Ukraine was part of the Russian empire. It made sense to call it Kiev then, however Ukraine today is an independant country and it is cementing its own traditions and changing the legacy of the past to refelct its own perceptions. It is interesting that the Ukrainian governement has chosen that it prefers the spelling of Kyiv in English and the fact that the US government has also chosen this particular spelling. I think that Wikipedia should follow suite and should not be stuck in the past.
  • As time is progressing more and more sites are choosing the Ukrainian transliteration rather than the Russian one.
  • www.kyivpost.com
  • www.ves-kyiv.com.ua
  • www.kyiv-obl.gov.ua

catalog.kyiv.ru/ua/categ-Services (even in Russia)

  • kyiv.osp-ua.info/index.php
  • www.ukraine.org/VKyiv/
  • www.kyiv.in.ua

This didn't exist before and it is a growing trend.

Anyway - I will be posting a whole slew of article on the bandura in the Kuban and in general and a mass of photographs. Hope you will enjoy the articles. Have you read the Minister and the Massacres by N. Tolstoy? 20:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well growing or not is something that will not influence wikipedia. What does influence wikipedia is that both CNN and BBC use Kiev, and a lot more people in the English speaking world read those than US or UK state let alone Ukrainian state publications (in English)... just google the two names against each other and you have a 34 million vs. 5 million preference of Kiev over Kyiv. And its not that the five million is insignificant... it's the fact that 34 million hits is a LOT! Here is a recent discussion [1] and Irpen fully summarises it.
As for historical versions, then prior to 1990s Kyiv was not known anywhere outside Ukraine and its diaspora...And as for history its best not to even dive into there. We have Second Battle of Kharkov and the city is Kharkiv; Battle of Lwów (1918) and the Lvov-Sandomierz Offensive and the modern city is called Lviv. We have the FC Dynamo Kyiv and the city is called Kiev.
I have not read the book, on the contrary I despise historical literature, particulary on controversial matters, because in my opinion its impossible to write history with no bias, sad but true. Since people will simply give you the sources and refrences taht they want you to believe. On the other hand I love Gumelyov because instead of following the boring historian approach of focusing on a narrow event he launches into everything and I must say I find his theory on "passionarity" convincing. As for other literature then its classical Russian:Leo Tolstoy, Bulgakov...its something you can read over and over again and still each time find it amazing and wonderful... --Kuban Cossack 21:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to briefly chime in. The issue has indeed been discussed to death. I would simply like to give you some links. Here is one of the discussions from over a year ago. Here is the most recent one. Much of what happened in between can be found at Talk:Kiev and its archives.

Now, to a more interesting things, I think you may find this discussion interesting. It took place long before you came here and I never returned to the subject or the article.

Best New Year wishes to you and let this year be productive for your off- and on-Wikipedia activity. --Irpen 05:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great article writing, Bandurist!

I notice a huge amount of content you are adding to Wikipedia and would like to thank you for that. Please keep up the good work.

As a word of advice, please always list your sources you use in articles. Also, no need to duplicate the messages you leave at article's talk at other people's talk pages. Most people watchlist the talk pages of the articles they edited. In case you want to be sure the particular user reads your talk page entry, just leave a note pointing towards the talk page. Thanks again and always feel free to ask if you have any questions. --Irpen 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


Pryvit - Христос Рождається. Thanks for your help and encouragement. I have spent most of the time building up http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE uk:Кобзарство, uk:Бандуристи sites, basically with the dictionary of Kobzarstvo I have been putting together for the past 25 years. I find the Ukrainian site easier to manage and more tolerant (although not so initially). Most of my posts in the english Wiki have disappeared unfortunately. Currently I occasionally make an English translation of one of my articles or materials, but I do find it frustrating with some of the changes that seem to immediately happen like changes in city transcriptions etc. But such is life. Still have a lot to do. I am going through my whole library checking and reviewing materials. I am also going through my photo and postcard collection and posting them in the commons and will later go through my sound recording collection and video collection. --Bandurist 15:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind my attempts at clean-up, and fitting the articles you write into more standard formats. The transcription issues are hot-button, and will most likely remain so with the diverse views present at WP. But I hope they don't discourage you with any further articles you wish to write. Христос Рождається, and Смачного!--tufkaa 17:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a learning experience. I'm just sitting on my own bandura stuff, and going over and correcting the materials over and over again and gradually learning all the tools. Everyday something new is learned. The transcription thing is a bit of a shocker but I'll get over it. Some people are very passionate about it. I guess the most important thing is to get the information together and out there. Христос Рождається. --Bandurist 18:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Well make sure you learn how to do correct citations and refrences as well. Just take a look at any article (e.g. Bridges in Kiev)--Kuban Cossack 18:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a learning experience. Hopefully my learning curve will be steep enough to keep people happy. And it is an interesting community - People I may have never gotten around to meeting. I will study the references and citations and gradually intergrate them into the articles. Thanks. --Bandurist 19:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post stamps

Dobroho dnja! I just uploaded 3 interesting post stamps in wikimedia commons. You may find them useful for your articles. Please use them if so: [2] [3] [4]. Also, you may know more about the stamps than me (they seem to be edited in Canada) if so, please add to the info on files.--Bryndza 18:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


Hi. The stamps were published by the Ukrainian Bandurist Chorus in Detroit USA bu Peter Honcharenko. They were used as a method of fund raising. He would send out small sheets of the stamps each year and received $5 - $? as adonation for the group. Their were a couple of hundred types of stamps issued.--01:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Bandurist

Thank you, I started to find more information on them too. [5] Inique things!--Bryndza 12:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have pages of them. I used to live in the Capella building when I first moved to the United States and they had hundreds of different types of stamps and stickers. Bandurist 17:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Yes, I know, I think we have corrected this months ago...? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Please take a look at the description at Image:Wolyn1943.jpg, which reflects this. --Lysytalk 06:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Did you mean to put this edit on Faustian's talk page? --Kuban Cossack 17:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Kobzar

Hey, you can make an usurpation request and change your username to User:Kobzar again... Sounds good? — Alex(U|C|E) 03:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kharkiv Metro articles

If you are going to move an article, please don't create separte pages and use the Move function. In addition please re: WP:RM prior to any moving in the future. Thank you. Also when making such a massive move spree, you should consult other parties for consensus. --Kuban Cossack 19:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Currently I am doing my doctorate in Kharkiv. I just got back from there yesterday. All the metro stations signs are in Ukrainian (because that is the the official state language). All the announcements are in Ukrainian. All the advertisoing in the trains and in the stations are in Ukrainian. All the Russian signs have been removed and replaced by Ukrainian ones because of the fact that Ukrainian is the official language. It makes no sense to have English transcriptions of the old Russian names as they are no longer current. If you look at the Dutch sight they use transcription directly from the Ukrainian. --Bandurist 20:14, 25 July 2007
and Russian has been made the state langauge by local Miska Rada, and held in court. Also there is no such thing as "old" or "new" names, as Russian names still hold.--Kuban Cossack 22:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
However, the declaration by the Miska Rada regarding Russian as the state language in Kharkiv is illegal and unconstitutional. All the signs in all the metro stations however are still in Ukrainian.
As it has been held in court, its legality is not in question, and so far there was no verdict by a superior body against it, apart from verbal outbursts by some politicians. Thus the argument does not hold. --Kuban Cossack 18:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Category:Musicians born in Ukraine

Hi, thought you'd want to know that a category you recently created, Category:Musicians born in Ukraine, has been nominated for deletion. The discussion is taking place at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007_July_31#Category:Musicians_born_in_Ukraine. The discussion was opened on July 31, and will probably close in two days, so if you wish to make a case for retaining the category, I wouldn't delay. Cgingold 01:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Archeological congress

The article on XIII Archeological Congress was proposed for deletion,and instead of deleting it I stubbified it and renamed it Russian Archeological Congress. The detailed information on the Bandura was not really encyclopedic in the detail given--transcripts of individual conference speeches are never kept. . But please feel free to make use of the material in an appropriately titled article with reasonable contents on the competition, if you think you have adequate sources--it's still in the history. DGG (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Your recent edit to Babi Yar

Meat is hung. People are hanged. Philip Trueman 10:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Hung" is used to refer to death by hanging and it has always been used to refer to death by hanging. Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage says this is not a mistake. However, after viewing a number of sites over the internet, the tendency does ssem to go to hanged. I shall thus change it back if it hasn't already happened. --Bandurist 10:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)




[edit] RfC Kyiv

Hello Bandurist, I'm a new Wiki editor from Toronto and have noticed your articles and discussions on things Ukrainian. Good work. Do you have the time for a quick comment on the Kyiv name on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming#Request_for_Comment. Thanks in advance. Eduvalko 02:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a better word?

Thanks for the input at RfC Kyiv. We'll see how that goes. BTW I had you on my watchlist and saw that you added a list of modern Kobzars on your user page. Good. Please don't be offended by my interest but is there a better word than "reproductive". It's breeding connotation overpowers what I think you wanted to say. I searched a thesaurus and came up with "Kobzar emulators" (its better than copiers or similiar words). Just my two kopijky worth and feel free to ignore this. Take care.Eduvalko 03:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Emulation certainly is a more accurateword. The use of the term "reproductive" was ported over from Ukrainian. It was used in my doctorate disertation. I applied the term to the bandura players from its usage in choral music in a book by one of the vice ministers of Culture in Ukraine. Looks like I will be changing it in Ukrainian as well. Thanks Bandurist 13:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I just saw your comment on the Kyiv page. Thank you for your humor. And I really like reading your well written articles on Ukrainian music. Best regards, Ostap 22:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sech - Urine?

Do please tell me how the term Сечь means urine, which you pointed out on several cases in edits to Cossack-related articles during my absense. Not only does the dictionary not point me in that direction (only in the verb, see for yourself) as a Russian speaker, I have never heard word be used as a substitute for моча or сычьё. Therefore I ask you return the term Sech where you have removed it.--Kuban Cossack 22:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In the dictionary - Сеч - f. urine, piss, Anat, urinary canal, ureter, muscular duct (tube) for urine: сечник, urine bladder Chem. urea. Bandurist 16:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, getlemen, it doesn't really matter if it means urine or not. Check what Sech is in this encyclopedia and check what Sich is. Standard accepted term in this encyclopaedia to describe a Cossack host is Sich and is the only one allowed. Period. User:Kuban kazak, who spends so much time correcting Kyiv to Kiev should know better then confuse readers with unacceptable words. It is clear cut case of WP:POINT. If this disruptive behavior persists, it will be reported immediately to the admins. --Hillock65 17:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kuban

2002 Russian census on langauge, 2% Ukrainian spoken. Nationality, well let's look at it this way:
  • Total Rural Population : 38737683
  • Total Rural Ukrainian Population: 691793
  • % of Rural Ukrainian population as a fraction of Russia's: (1.79%)
  • Total population in the Kuban: 6913294
  • Expected Ukrainian rural population in Kuban: 123747.
  • Actual Ukrainian rural population in the Kuban: 61867 (0.9% of total)

I don't understand how categories Ukrainian Diaspora can be added to a group which openly identifies as Russians. Would you add Rusyns as Russian population groups and Russian Diaspora? --Kuban Cossack 15:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed that there is a revert war going on in Kuban Cossacks. At the moment I don't have too much time to dedicate to this, but will come to it later. I have found though some sources for you [6][7] Both are reputable academic publications. Please support your claims by those sources and if they get deleted again, feel free to complain at the WP:ANI. This needs to be dealt with. Hope that helps. --Hillock65 16:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure, however my main source is the 2002 census, which unlike publications is primary and its accuracy is unquestionable. Krasnodar kray, Russians 4436272 of whom 17542 are Cossacks (five years later that number already stands at more than 25 thousand). Ukrainians 131774 mostly live in the Black Sea districts (which strictly speaking is not Kuban) and major cities. You give publications by questionable people, I give primary sources. Who is more accurate? --Kuban Cossack 16:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, what you are trying to do is to interpret the primary source (the census). That is called Original Research, if you didn't know. The census gives raw figures and provides no interpretation. If you want to make a conclusion, what balachka is, or highlight questions of Ukrainian identity among Kuban Cossacks you will have to do that by referring to reputable, academic publications that deal with these particular questions. Census provides only numbers, everything else is your WP:OR. The sources that I presented in no way dispute the results of the census or the numbers, but provide interpretation and analysis of the processes taking place on the ground. They are both academic papers, you will have to present very serious reasons to doubt them. --Hillock65 16:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

From Українське козацтво - Енциклопедія - Kyiv, 2006 - From the Кубанське козацтво article (p. 324-330: 1792-93 - Settled 25,000 from Ukraine (first wave) (I doubt that they were ethnically Russian) 1806-09 - 592 Zadunaj kozaks were resettled 1810 - 562 from Moldova 1809-11 - 41,635 people from Poltava and Chernhiv huberiyas (Second wave) 1820-25 - 59,455 people from Kharkiv, Poltava and Chernihiv hubernias (3rd wave) 1848-49- 11,949 people Kharkiv, Poltava and Chernihiv hubernias (4th wave) From 1792-1850 0ver 105 thousand people resettled there from central Ukraine. The final resettlement took place in 1862-66 with 1142 people.

In the census for 1927 there were 1,222,140 Ukrainians in the Kuban okruh which made up 55% of the population of the krai

In 1922 there were 33 Ukrainian language schools In 1927 there were 746 Ukrainian language schools In 1927 there were 7 tekhnikums that taught in Ukrainian and 150 published writers (most of whom were repressed in the 1930's). In the mid 30's over 1500 Ukrainian speaking intellctuals were murdered in Krasnodar. The names of Ukrainian stanytsias were also changed. Kyivska was changed to Chervonoartilivska, and Umanska to Leninhradska, Poltavska to Chervonoarmijska.

A change to 61867 (0.9% of total) from 55% in my opinion either warrants an article about the genocide of Ukrainians as an ethic group in he Kuban or an article on the falsification of census results in Russia. Bandurist 17:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to wedge in this comment, but the Danube Cossacks were migrated not in 1806-1809, but in 1828 when they were pardoned by Nicholas I. They first moved to the Azov where they formed the Azov Cossack Host. Only in 1860 did they move to the Kuban. Make sure to point out inaccuracies such as these in your sources, as I would love to see that article. Also claims of falsification, as Hillock said will have to refrenced, on top of that we have the censuses from -39,-59,-70,-79 and -89 as well as -02. I remember how in -89 I proudly said I was Russian, and in -02 that I was a Cossack, as well as a Russian. --Kuban Cossack 19:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Genocide is a very strong word, it needs to be supported by credible sources. I see a slight problem with that. An article about Kuban Ukrainians might be a good idea, though. All aspects of Ukrainians in Kuban can be covered there: history, culture, language, Holodomor, etc. If you want, I can start the stub. --Hillock65 17:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
It is a strong term, however what has been done in the Kuban fits in with the definition. I have already written an article that I will post either today or tomorrow. I just want to check all the facts, spelling etc in the neumerous books and journals I have. Kuban is a beautiful area. I spent a month there touring with concerts in 1991 Bandurist 18:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
How kind of you to visit there. I for one have lived there since 1979, and my ancestors are part of the original Black Sea Cossacks who migrated there. It is true that not all of the people living in the Kuban were Cossacks and yes people from Guberniyas moved there (when will you Bandurist learn to spell correctly?), however what is true is that the Cossacks were never viewed as Ukrainians, and to this day this remains true. With exception of a small period 1918-mid-1930s were forcibly classed as Ukrainians. Luckily this was sorted out (some genocide...when noone is killed). When Ukrainians in the Russian Empire were classed as Little Russians, that did not suit many now did it? Yet we do not write that the portion of "Russians" in Ukraine in 2001 is only 17% whilst in 1897 it was 95%. Was that genocide? There are multiple "academic" sources which would share this POV... I don't like Double Standards. --Kuban Cossack 18:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
You seem to contradict yourself:(the Cossacks were never viewed as Ukrainians ... With exception of a small period). And how was it "sorted out", if 2002 census showed 131774 Ukrainians in the region? I don't want to enter into premature discussion about this. This will be checked on the merit of the souces presented once the article is posted. Knowing your propensity to cite Russian imperialist sources, like "Ukraine is a disease" and high school essay cheating sites (сборник рефератов), I am naturally very suspicious about the sources you will present and can only advise to analyze and check them very thoroughly. --Hillock65 19:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and we certainly have never seen ourselves as Ukrainians. As for sources, I have photographs of protests in 1920s against Ukrainisation. Please, you yourself mixed up Kuban and Siberian Cossacks, and placed sources of a so-called Cold War vet. As for Ukrainians in the region, it also showed Armenians, Circassians, Tatars, Uzbeks and even Zimbabwians. In fact we have just about every person from the world living on our beautiful land, but mostly in cities and Black Sea Districts, which I myself have said that it is strictly not Kuban. With Olympics coming along in 2014 we will have just about everyone arrive, hope you can come as well. --Kuban Cossack 19:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • This is a very nice article. I guess you should be ready for it to come under attack. I will try to gather any sources to help you. Again, its a very nice article, grounded in factual reality. Ostap 22:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Good Suggestions!

I really liked your suggestions in the Ukrainians in Russia image, so i added you as a co-author in the image page, you can find it here. Good work! M.V.E.i. 18:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. But i have a little different opinion about what you offered in Russians in Ukraine, and asked you a few things there on the article talk page. M.V.E.i. 18:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I like the suggestions that you gave for these articles. I think you should also look into the discussion on the Holocaust, the topic being so- called Ukrainian discrepancy.thanx Mona23653 01:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)mona23653



[edit] Balachka WP:POINT!

I particularly liked your new masterpieces of Balachka, Black Sea Host and of course Ukrainians in Kuban (which I will not touch just yet). However the first example to begin with, do you really think that in 1897 the Don Cossacks (not Kuban) spoke standard Russian, with no regional dialect? So why introduce fringe theories that Balachka is a dialect that was formed in the 20th century. Dialects take centuries to form, and Don communities were formed at the end of the Kievan Rus. Second in your article Ukrainians in Russia you explicitely state that National churches were not permitted nor were... Ukrainian press. First of all there is no such thing for us Ukrainians and Russians as a National Church, we were all Russian Orthodox, and we still are, in fact I do not think that God has an ethnicity ;). Ukrainian press? Well the next paragraph states exclussively in large cities such as Moscow could Ukrainian press be found. Black Sea Host, copypasting a section from one article, which was previously merged into it (albeit from a different redirect) has to be discussed.

Look Bandurist, believe me, I respect the large amount of work that you put in to articles that affect your speciality, related to Ukrainian music. This makes you, unlike some, a good user. But what has been going on since this edit, is something that I can only interpret as deliberate assault. Now I understand that you might feel strong about certain issues, I too feel strong about how every year the amount of Russian language schools in Ukraine decrease, or how even Russian Empire-dated signs are mutilated on statues and decorations. However that is not a reason for me to begin a chain of articles that will do nothing but attract an edit war. I hate edit warring, but at present what I am seeing is nothing but oil being added to the fire. E-mail me if you want to discuss anything particular, I would love to collaborate on writing certain articles with you. --Kuban Cossack 19:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me start by saying that I respect the work you have done with regard the Cossacks and the Metro articles. The finess and logic are exemplary. However, do not agree with your POV regarding Ukrainian language. In fact the POV which you uphold is IMHO one of reasons the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union fell apart.
  • 1)this edit, I didn't do.
  • 2)In general, whenever you have changed my Ukrainian transcriptions to Russian ones you will notice that I did not engage in an edit war. The infomation is there. I disagreed to the reasoning, but such is life. I was very disappointed with what you did with my article on the Kuban National Republic whcih I translated from the Ukrainian Wikipedia. You butchered it to such an extent whilst I was writting it that I basically lost interest in continuing it. As a result the article lays unfinished.
  • 3) Balachka - We disagree. Why are we suddenly changing from the Kuban Cossacks to the Don. These are two different types of fish.
  • 4) National churches were not permitted. And in Russia they were not "we were all Russian Orthodox" I am Eastern orthodox. I am not Russian Orthodox. I was baptised in a Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Australia. We apparently have differeing views on (some minor points) of religion, which mmaybe we can explore in the near future.
  • 5) Ukrainian press? Well the next paragraph states exclusively in large cities such as Moscow could Ukrainian press be found Yes but when. Up until the Revolution no Ukrainian magazines or Newspapers were published in Russia. The few journals dealing with Ukrainian matters such as Ukrayinskaya zhyzn' edited by Symon Petlura was published in Russian. In 1918 they started publishing and you know what .. they publsihed Ukrainian papers in Kuban. even today there is a Ukrainian language newsopaper in Krasnodar called Kubanska Zoria.

We differ. Let us celebrate our differences and try to work it into a positive direction, but please don't be a bully. Bandurist 00:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist I am not a bully, and I do not wish to be. Kuban National Republic was translated from Ukrainian wikipedia, now I am not trying to paint it in a negative light, but when they openly state that individuals like Andrei Shkuro was a Ukrainian it makes me laugh, before recent times they had an official policy page that recruited edit warriors (Ksenofobii-nii) to other wikis. Articles should be written from authentic material, and guess what there are numerous History of the Kuban books printed right now in the Kuban, and they paint a very different picture of those events that the uk-wiki tries to do (again the same wikipedia that included EU and NATO as part of Ukraine's History...even though Ukraine is yet to even join either of those organisations, and is still under question if it will...)
I changed your Ukrainian transcriptions when you used them for times that only Russian would fit, for example I doubt examples like Malorosiyskyi Dvir is acceptable. If you disagree raise the issue with a third party, preferably not of Ukrainian or Russian origin.
Religion; true as your example might be, in Russia none of those communities ever existed, until the mid-20th century. Thus when reffering collectively, most Ukrainians in Russia would be in the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church, just like most Russians in Ukraine would be in the Ukrainian Orhtodox Church (MP <- although I dislike to use this excessive clarification). The latter is an unseparable part of the ROC.
Newspappers, sure, we have Armenian papers, we have television in Adygiyan, Cherkessiyan and Karachay (don't you forget that those republics are also part of the Kuban). We even have English papers printed. After all Russia is a free country, and unlike Ukraine where Russian press is being continuously pressured, I couldn't care less what the papers write and in what language they do so.--Kuban Cossack 09:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Where do I want to go with this? Well I want to prove to myself that I can work with you and vice versa, so I propose that only we, focus primarily for the next month or so, to write a long awaited article with a clear FA status Ukrainian Architecture. I have already created a plan for it in my sandbox: User:Kuban kazak/Ukrainian architecture, and recommend we don't publish it until it is ready. Oh and when you said transcriptions, you were right only once, Kharkiv Metro, I have given the issue some thought and I guess it is sensible to move them to Ukrainian titles. Though do it correctly by using the move function, but since the double redirects have been locked already I recommend you speak to an admin about this, try Mikka or Bakharev and they will sort it out. --Kuban Cossack 09:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] User:Kuban kazak/Ukrainian architecture

User:Kuban kazak/Ukrainian architecture I have made a start on it. Awaiting your input (the challenge of this is that both of us are not architects!) Feel free to begin/correct any part you want, it is as much your article as it is mine. --Kuban Cossack 16:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Churches in Volhynia

Hi, I guess you added info that language in Volynian Orthodox churches was changed to Russian. I seriously doubt that Polish govt was responsible of it. Do you have any more info? Greets Tymek 20:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Basically it was the Russocentric policies of Roman Dmowski who paralised the Ukrainianization of the Orthodox churches in Volyn. It is he that influence the outcome of the Riga treaty, it his his policies IMHO that brought Volyn to a boil. I will look into sources, possibly this weekend. Bandurist 20:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Pardon me for intervening, but I do believe that Church Slavonic not Russian, was the langauge of liturgy, unless you have something that directly counters that, I do not see how the interbellum, Polish Orthodox Church's carrying out service in this language is a sign of suppression of Ukrainian Culture. After all was it not because of Patriarch Nikon with Mogilla's influence that brought it into Russian Orhtodox Church in the first place? So if anything Church Slavonic should be something that will be a wholly Ukrainian practice, given that hardly any Old Believers live in Volhynia. --Kuban Cossack 17:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To a certain extent you are right, but also wrong. The Byzantine Catholics in Galicia had their liturgy in Church Slavonic and the sermon in Ukrainian. They only changed over to a Ukrainian language liturgy ie the venacular in 1963.

The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church changed over to Ukrainian language liturgy in 1918. Outside pressure however was placed on the Autocephalous Orthodox church in Volyn to revert the Ukrainian services back to Church Slavonic and the Sermon to Russian. Also church publications such as the calendar and newspaper were published in Russian. This was opposed by the Ukrainians. Bandurist 18:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well first of all, what makes you think all Ukrainians opposed this? You were not there so let's not make opinion based conclusions. Second of all, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, only existed in Soviet Union where it was supported, outside the USSR, in 1924 the Ecumenical Patriarchate, after Patriarch Tikhon was executed, took over all former Russian Empire territories, and created the Finnish, Estonian...and Polish Orthodox Church, all autonomous and subordianated to Istanbul. However he allowed the synod's of those churches, and in case of Poland's almost exclusively Belarussian and Ukrainian clergy to choose their own liturgy and service. So before 1918 for the past thousands of years they used Slavonic, then some (as no numbers provided, we can well assume a minority) chose to use Ukrianian (needs to be cited) and then again changed to Slavonic. That is not a sign of persecution in any way. Feel free to expand the POC article. --Kuban Cossack 18:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I can only go by my memories of what my mother's Grandfather (and Grandmother)(who happened to have been a deacon in a Ukrainian orthodox church in Dubrovytsia not far from Rivne to have been told me and from I have read and from what people in church spoke about. The more you read the more things fall into place and become understood. Indeed I will make additions as I get access to more materials that make sense. Bandurist 18:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] sorry

Sorry about that, I didn't know you had an article created. Ostap 01:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You are very fast. I am trying to deflect some of the negative stuff which still continues to come up regarding the pogroms. I translated most of Serhiychuk's article into english/ Now we can condence the section in the Petlura article. I also have created the Schwartzbard trial which still needs expansion. The more I read the more a travesty it was. Ineptedness from one side and seizing possibilties on the other. Bandurist 01:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, at the time I just thought that it was an attempt to throw more dirt on him. (and I didn't know it was you, it was an IP and the POV IPs have been active around that article) Anyway, I just removed a "guilt by association" reference to Petlura from the Kiev pogroms article. It seems like there is much work to do on this subject. Ostap 01:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
It amazes me the "Guilt by Association" thing. Documents are there although many of the documents that show he was not associated with it have previously been made difficult to get to. If he was associated in any way do you not think that they would have been dug up these specific documents by now instead of theis "Guilt by Association". It reminds me of the Ukrainian saying "Na horodi buzyna av Kyevi diadko." Association. Yeah. Bandurist 11:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edit

I hope you don't mind me nitpicking your editing habits, but I see you mark almost all of your edit as minor, when in fact many of them are not. May I suggest reading WP:MINOR and unchecking the possibly checked box 'mark all edits as minor' in preferences? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  12:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is your Problem?

If you are going to do these kind of edits I will complain to the administration of wikipedia, if you want to seek a WP:DR then so be it, but if you think you can just trill through articles just like that, it will be reported. Please stop and seek consensus first.--Kuban Cossack 10:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing my attention to my article. I have corrected the typos.Bandurist 11:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Have it your way. I will be filing a WP:MEDCAB shortly. --Kuban Cossack 12:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles

[edit] Ukrainians in Russia

Since you started the article Ukrainians in Russia you are probably the one most interested in it's positive developmet. The idea is exelent, and i decided to help you. I'm experianced in creating, writing and upgrading articles (see my user page). Russians in Ukraine is an article i started (but most of it was written by Kuban Cossack, i learned from him alot. He was worth 10 editors at this job). Do you want your article to look like this? With an infobox, image, big sections, good split? I think we can do that. What we need is to bring a team. If you'll wait for them to come, it might never evolve into something good. We need to bring the people, invite. I dont know many Ukrainian wikipedians. If it would be an article about Russians i could invite Kuban Cossack and in a short time it would evolve in to a huge faeature article. But since it's about Ukrainians, i dont know who to bring, and as i understood you know many. What you need is to bring those who you know are interested in Ukrainians and their history. Even if they havent learned the theme Ukrainians in Russia before, since they are interested in Ukrainian history in general they will get into the case fast. So what you could do is write a messege inviting the user to take part in the writing of the article, and leave this messege on a maximum number of user talk pages you can. M.V.E.i. 21:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, i would like to make an image to the article. I started a discussion one the talk page of the article. M.V.E.i. 21:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. The idea is not mine. It came up during the editing of Kuban Cossacks and instead of hasving a revert war I thought it would be more beneficial to work on an article. I admire Kuban cossacks editing skills, however I do not always agree with his POV. I see him as a diligent and thorough proof reader, especially in topics that he is excited by. Regarding list of Ukrainian in Russia. So many can be added. You have a host of composers such as Bortniansky and Berezovsky who were born in Ukraine but worked in St Petersburg. You have Taras Shevchenko who left Ukraine at the age of 14. You have thousands and it would clutter up the article very quickly. Currently I am just translating some of the material from the Ukrainain Encyclopedia and then touching up with some mor recent info from books published over the past few years. However, lets get people focused on having the article. Hopefully there will not be major editing wars. Bandurist 22:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


As i understood you have a big amount of knowledge about relegion in the Ukrainian community in Russia. Relegion (and Demography) are to important sections the article lacks. If you could it will be nice if you create a Relegion section. M.V.E.i. 12:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a specialist in that area. Just a passing interest in trying to understand what is going on there. Many of my friends with whom I associate with are very well versed. I will try to get the info required. Bandurist 13:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Then i'll just leave there a messege on the talk page that will say that those two are requiered. P.S. Nice user page, finally i dont have to press "edit" so i could read it :-). M.V.E.i. 15:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. As I do more research more and more info is coming my way. Bandurist 15:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
You should add the Ukrainians in Russia article to the list of your articles, due to the fact you are the one who started it on the English Wikipedia. M.V.E.i. 15:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Cossacks

Hello :-)

After reading that article (that you started) i cant not be interested in the topic (i'm half Jewish, my mother is Jewish, and father is Russian. From my Jewish side i have roots in the Zaporojhian Oblast). How many % of the Jews of Zaporojiya join the sich? Were there many in the Zaporojian sich? Did the sich ever change in the opinion of letting Jews in? Thank you. You can answer here on your talk page. M.V.E.i. 21:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Ukrainians in Russia and Jewish Cossacks are two articles that you created on the English Wikipedia, therefor they really should be mentioned in the your articles list. M.V.E.i. 21:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Greetings I was interested in the subject because I heard of it a number of years ago and thought it quite strange. When I attended Kyiv University they even had a humopurous song about it. Then I ran accross a mention of it in the Jewish encylopedia. wowo. Something that is poorly documented. I corrected some of the info and checked a number of Ukrainian sources and yes - bang - They did exist. Now the question is how Jewish were they? Were they ethnically Jewish or religiously Jewish. Had they converted to Christianity? Were they Krymchaks of Karaims? Much of the scholarship has been either unavailable or not supported by the powers that may be. It is only during the times of Kmelnytsky that the religion aspect came to prominance. Orthodoxy against everyone else. The results are well known and actively supported by some groups. Hopefully the article will act as a magnet for the collection of other materials. What percentage - I cannot say. I will have to speak to my Cossack guru friend at Harvard who recently defended his doctoraste on the Cossacks, but I would suspect that before Khmelnytsky the Sich accepted probably everyone in some capacity or other. Bandurist 23:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Thats amaizing, really who could have thought? Nice information! Thank you. Ostap is right, your work is amaizing. M.V.E.i. 07:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Bandurist, your work is amazing. I wish to encourage you to keep it up. I noticed that your user page is slightly skewed, and you can't really read it. May I try to fix this? Ostap 00:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Please do. You haven't seemn my library. I've been to Ukraine and Russia over 80 times and have brought back the most amzing books. Ostap, if you are in Toronto, there will be a lecture on Bandurists and Kobzars this Thursday at KUMF given by a professor from Kyiv University. 7.30 pm. Bandurist 00:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you really get around. Sadly I can't attend the Kobzar lecture, I'm in the wrong country. Again, please keep up your good work. And I think I fixed the page. Ostap 00:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - hey look what I found on the Siberian Russian Wiki * Dialects of Ukrainian language Great map. Bandurist 01:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No one argues they have a Ukrainian root, but generaly what they speak is Russian, just with a partly Ukrainian dialect. M.V.E.i. 07:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symon Petlura

Here. Some IP has said you are adding "POV" edits to the article. he seems to be removing some important material, but he is correct that some of it is unsourced. I have restored some of it with a source and clarified Petliura's supposed role in the pogroms, but the other stuff I left out for now until you can join the discussion. thanks, Ostap 01:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ostap. I read it earlier today and have been thinking about it. Its a newby. All we can do is welcome them to Wikipedia, talk about the learning curve and encourage them to note down that a citation is required and waiting an appropriate period of time rather than immediately removing material that one does not like. On the other hand asking for a thousand citiations for every trivial thing is also a pain. I can usually find the documents to cite but keep in mind most of my activities in Wiki are weekend endeavours. I just got home from work and it is 10.30 and I was up at 6.oo. It takes time to find the citations. Thank you very much for your support. 02:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist, I fully understand. If you had a long day, you should read this and get a good laugh out of it. I removed it from the links of the Petlyura article. It is really hilarious commie propoganda: [8]. Ostap 02:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I just wrote hiom a rely on his IP address. Maybe you could write him something.I doubt if he will read it, but he has been cited for some vadalism on a number of other articles. Bandurist 02:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If you noticed, apparently he is using a different computer, and as such he has a different IP. I don't think he got the messages left on the old one, so I left him one on the new IP asking him to create an account. That would make it much easier. I didn't see many problems with the original article, but I think we should let IP say what his compromise is. Ostap 20:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. Then we turn another person into a Wikipedian. Hopefully it wopuld be good if we can come up with a method in which we can cooperate rather than eternally having edit wars from various IP addresss. By having a stable registration he can build up his credibility. Bandurist 02:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Bandurist, I have access now to many primary source documents from the 1920s newspapers. Some clearly state that many witnesses, and not only Ukarinains, testified that Petlyura was a freind to the Jews, and had absolutely no involvement in the pogroms. I wanted to let you know about one that I found very interesting. There is a source, New York Times: Oct 22, 1927. p. 6, which says that Alexander Shulguin, a professor of History at the University of Prague, testified in the court that Petlyura had no responsibility and no control over the Bolsheviks and Ukrainian irregulars commiting the horrific pogroms. He then alleged that Schwartzbard was an agent of Moscow. Schwartzbards response was that he stood up and started screaming at the accuser, whom he had never met before, "You hate me because I am a Jew!". I think Schwartzbards reaction was very interesting. Shulguin simply answered "No, because you are a Bolshevik!" I know its WP:OR and can't go in the article, but I just wanted to let you know about that. I will see if any of the other sources can be included in the article. Ostap 19:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I am terribly sorry about not responding to the email. I just saw it now. Ostap 06:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

This section has to be rewritten, and rewritten well. We have a clash of two sides at this junction mainly because the two sides have gone there merry ways and never really sat down to examine the materials. As a result the myth aout his Pogromming just continued to grow and multiply. Bandurist 11:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
You have discovered me. I hope you like the CD's. Am working on a new one based on music by composers that were shot in 1938. Yeah. Sure beats "England doesn't have an academy" ... but it reminds me of the fact that the the USSR didn't have have a Russian Academy of Sciences. It had a Soviet one but no Russian one. Every republic had an academy of Sciences except Russia.... and did Russian Science suffer?Bandurist 11:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repatriation of Poles (1944-1946)

Thank you for the article, I have moved it to what I think is a better title (per Polish Wikipedia). I see that the Polish wikipedia has also an article on pl:Wysiedlenie Ukraińców z RP do ZSRR 1944-1946 - Repatriation of Ukrainians from Poland to USSR (1944-1946). This also sounds like a topic worth writing on. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi I'm basically translating all the recent materials uncovered by Serhiychuk, but rather than waiting for a Polish translation of the Ukrainian and then a translation from Polish to English we are jumping the line. Interesting stuff. Bandurist 02:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I want to join Piotrus, thank you very much for the very interesting article. Tymek 04:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Updated DYK query On 24 October 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Repatriation of Poles (1944-1946), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Mrs.EasterBunny 16:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Repatriation of Ukrainians from Poland to USSR (1944-1946) - just a stub, but I thought I should at least return the favor.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, you may be interested in Przebraże Self-Defence.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requests

[edit] Ukrainian Republic Capella

Hello, I started an article about the Ukrainian Republic Capella, but as that is my first attempt, I'm sure that there is a lot to be repaired. I would really appreciate any help or suggestions. Thanks, Horlo 01:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I actually read through Koshytz's diaries fro my Doctorate and went through his and Macenko's archives in Winnipeg. Some interesting material there to go through and add. Bandurist 18:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Volodymyr Serhiychuk

Hello, you were the author of Volodymyr Serhiychuk. Would you mind expanding the uk:Сергійчук Володимир Іванович article on ua wiki? Thanks, Ostap 04:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll try this weekend. He has produced a whole bunch of really interesting books. I picked up a couple and they read so well. He is the up and coming historian to watch. A product of post 1991. Bandurist 11:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Golovaty

Why did you create a duplicate article? If you disagree with the title do a WP:RM, if you are boycotting any discussions with me. Still, why have two articles? --Kuban Cossack 13:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I understand that you disagree with the name of an older article. But what are you doing exactly by creating a rival article under a name you like better and redirecting the old one to a new name? If the article's name is disputed, the move discussion is the proper way to go rather than forking and cut'n'paste moving. --Irpen 20:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balachka - again

Just to quote from WP:REVERT:

  • Do not simply revert changes that are made as part of a dispute. Be respectful to other editors, their contributions and their points of view.

Remember that persistant reverting will cause a block, and each article has a talk page where I am ready to discuss issues with you. I gave credible sources, therefore per WP:VAND . Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary. is considered a form of vandalism. I do hope you are aware of the consenquences that your persistant WP:POINT attack on that article might cause.--Kuban Cossack 17:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marking edits as minor

I suspect that your account is set to mark all edits as minor by default. Please go to Special:Preferences, click on "editing" and uncheck the "Mark all edits minor by default" box. Having your substantial edits marked as minor misleads your co-editors. Thanks, --Irpen 21:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Shall be done Bandurist 21:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
    • And? --Irpen (talk) 17:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
      • I forgot on that one. Sorry. Shall attempt to be mnore compliant. Bandurist (talk) 18:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
        • This edit, while factually wrong (WW2 took more Ukrainian lives), CANNOT be marked minor. Please stop it NOW! --Irpen (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
          • Ukrainas total military & civilian toll were 6,850,000 million Ukrainian discrepency. Moreover the losses were created by both the Nazis and the Soviets. The Holodomor was greater and instigated but just one government. Bandurist (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

~7 million death tool is certainly higher than any scholarly estimation of the number of death from the famine. But this issue aside, such significant changes being marked as minor is a serious aggravation as well as your refusal to stop it when it takes so little effort. --Irpen (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

            • Once again, I assure you that my intentions were honourable. I will attempt to be more careful in the future. Bandurist (talk) 04:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Once again this was by no means a minor edit. Your obstinate refusal to make a small correction in your settings described above despite many pleas is highly disrespectful. I am asking you for the umpteenth time to click on Special:Preferences, then click on "editing" and uncheck the "Mark all edits minor by default" box. --Irpen (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sholom Schwartzbard

Bandurist, I think a compromise would be good regarding the lead in the Sholom Schwartzbard article. Adding his criminal record to the lead is, in my opinion, not neccessary as it is already discussed in the article. It is the same reason why we should not include his military service record in the lead. I would have the lead not mention any of this, and just say that he was an anarchist, known for his assassination of politician Petlura.

right now it says:
"Sholom Schwartzbard (August 18, 1886, Izmail, Bessarabia, now Ukraine – March 3, 1938, Cape Town, South Africa) was a Bessarabian-born Jewish anarchist, twice-convicted escaped criminal[1], poet, known primarily for the assassination of the Ukrainian politician Symon Petliura. He was known in Russia as Samuil Isaakovich Shvartsburd, or Shulem Shmil Shvartsburd. He wrote in Yiddish under the pen name of Bal-Chaloimas (English: The Dreamer)."
I would propose this:
"Sholom Schwartzbard (August 18, 1886, Izmail, Bessarabia, now Ukraine – March 3, 1938, Cape Town, South Africa) was a Bessarabian-born Jewish anarchist known primarily for the assassination of the Ukrainian politician Symon Petliura. He was known in Russia as Samuil Isaakovich Shvartsburd, or Shulem Shmil Shvartsburd. He wrote poetry in Yiddish under the pen name of Bal-Chaloimas (English: The Dreamer)."

Thats my opinion, let me know what you think. And I set up the official request move for Holovaty. Best wishes, Ostap 01:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. Makes sense. Bandurist 04:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Cossacks

Here is another reference: [9]. Ostap (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bereza Kartuska

I have merged your existing article into the older and larger Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp. It was a detention camp, not a concentration camp - in other words, just a prison, perhaps infamous - but no more a concentration camp then Alcatraz (or even Lubianka). I am not aware of any serious academic work that would claim it was a c.c.; on the other hand such a term is sometimes used on purpose by some less reliable sources trying to demonize sanacja (or Poland). I am not trying to defend it, but it was not a concentration camp. I hope this clarifies this misunderstanding. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

PS. Actually, as Ostap pointed out to me, the term is used by reliable sources too. Nonetheless we should consider WP:NPOV as (from internment) "the term concentration camp lost some of its original meaning after Nazi concentration camps were discovered, and has ever since been understood to refer to a place of mistreatment, starvation, forced labour, and murder. The expression since then has only been used in this extremely pejorative sense". I'd suggest we carry any further discussion (if there is a need for it) on article's talk page, and if you want to rename it, let's use WP:RM.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Makes sense. I was moved to start the article because the Ukrainians in Canada just released a documentary film about the camp made by Yuri Luhovy from Montreal. The initial version is in Ukrainian. Currently they are making an english version of the film. I looked up the camp. Little is written, but I have found material from a professor who teaches in Moscow and now have a map of the camp. The who thing is to sort through the material.Bandurist (talk) 12:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is some research in Polish on the camp, ex. [10], [11], [12]. There are also some interesting articles online, ex. [13]. Let me know if there is any particular piece of information you are looking for.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

One more argument with which I would like to convince you to abstain instead of support that move. Concentration camp is as correct as internment/detention camp, with regards to definitions. Yes, it is more widely used - but it is also less neutral. The debate may also drive a wedge between Polish and Ukrainian editors on wiki, resurfacing some nationalist sentiments on both sides. I have seen this happen in the past and I certainly don't belive that this is what any of us want. I am particularly worried as the recent move was started and is supported by certain editors (not from Ukraine) who have shown time and again that they like to push an anti-Polish POV. Being on the same side with such nationalist POV-pushers is not good - they are not helping you because they care about the article or about Ukrainian POV, but because they want to push anti-Polish POV and damage Polish-Ukrainian relations on Wiki. As far as I can tell, up till now Polish and Ukrainian relations on Wiki were friendly; do we really want to risk damaging them over a silly camp name? I would urge you to reconsider changing your vote to abstain and convincing your fellow Ukrainian editors to do the same. Eastern European topics see too much tension already; we should ensure that the level of tension diminishes and we all work peacefully. In the end, Polish-Ukrainian conflict has never ever been beneficial to either of our sides.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from. The Poles do not want to be associated with any sort of concentration camp, and great energies have been expended to keep the term Poland as far as one can from the concept of concentration camps. However, from what I have read, although I do not believe that the camp was intended to be a concentration camp, to me it seems from what I have read like it became one in 1938. Keep in mind that I am not voting strongly for the change. ultimately I think that it will stay as an internment camp, but I do think that a paragraph needs to be added that in the process of escalation of antagonism the camp became a concentration camp, or approached that particular level. Also, keep in mind that the film about Bereza (which I have not seen) is making the rounds of the Ukrainian communities in its Ukrainian version. Currently they are collecting more money and more information in the process to generate the English version which is being slated to be shown on the CBC here in Canada. I feel that the discussion has to come now, because when the English version comes out there will be a flood of interest in this topic. The only way to handle it it is - Yes this and this happened BECAUSE this and this happened, which led to an unfortunate escalation which led to further escalation and further atrocities. We are over that now. We have learned that that direction leads to disaster for everyone. Here is the lesson of 50 years ago which we now understand. We also need to be careful to put both versions on the table. When I first saw the article, it had hardly any mention of the OUN inmates despite the fact that the camp was opened after one of their deeds, and the first inmates were from that organization. And here is that Faustian turn. An internment camp meant to slow down, hamper or ultimately stop the activities of the OUN became their University where members and interested parties who normally would never have met or may have passed each other got to know each other, trust each other, share ideas, build on them, gain strength and convictions. The "graduates" of Bereza Kartuzka became the soldiers of the Nachtigal and Rolland Battalions of the Wehrmacht, the organizers of the Poliska Sich and UPA. A continual escalation from which the benefactors were not I or you, or our parents, or grandparents, or our children. Lets put our heads together and see what can be learned from the lesson. I think we are on the same wavelength but looking at something from two different sides. Bandurist 01:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for translation

Of uk:День пам'яті жертв голодомору та політичних репресій. It may enhance the article on Holodomor, too.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

День па́м'яті же́ртв голодомо́ру та політи́чних репре́сій — національний захід, що відбувається четвертої суботи листопада.

The day of memory of the victims of the Holodomor and political repressions - a national measure which is marked on the fourth Saturday of November.

Запроваджено Президентом України Леонідом Кучмою (Указ № 1310/98 від 26 листопада 1998 року; Указом № 1181/2000 від 31 жовтня 2000 року до Указу внесено зміни).

Introduced by the president of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma (Order # 1310/98 of November 26, 1998; Directive #1181/2000 of October 31, 2000 to the decree. were introduced changes

В Указі сказано: «На підтримку ініціативи громадських організацій, Міністерства культури і мистецтв України, Державного комітету України у справах релігій, Державного комітету інформаційної політики, телебачення і радіомовлення України постановляю: установити в Україні День пам'яті жертв голодомору та політичних репресій, який відзначати щорічно у четверту суботу листопада».

The decree states: "In order to support the initiative of community organizations, the Ministry of Culture and Arts of Ukraine, the State committee of Ukraine regarding religious matters, the State committee of informational politics, television and radio of Ukraine have postulated: to establish in Ukraine a day of memory of the victims of the Holodomor and political repression, which will be marked yearly on the fourth Saturday of November.

Протягом усієї історії радянської України від штучних голодів і репресій, метою яких було зламання національного руху, загинуло за різними оцінками 10—20 мільйонів людей. Throughout the whole history of Soviet Ukraine from artificial famines and repressions, the aim of which was to break the national movement, have died according to different calculations 10-20 million people.

Bandurist (talk) 23:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Since its your translation, I believe you should create a new article on this in our mainspace - I would hate to steal your work.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 23:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Golovaty edit war

Please note, that persistant reverting will not bring you anywhere, if you are so sure of your version, then certainly it will win, so what have you to loose temporarily keeping a former one? Please note WP:3RR, and also WP:POINT. I must say the move of the painting to the Commons and changing the name of the image made me laugh, all I can say is that was pathetic (WP:DICK comes to mind). Anyway in course of reverting at least attempt to build on the version you are reverting instead of rolling back the page completely. For example your dates on the Russo-Turkish war are out of order, they begin at 1791. Also spelling of Cathrine II is not done with a -K, finally why did you remove my passage on the details of the Persian campaign. Last but not least, Golovaty became Ataman effectively in the last two weeks of his life, and was never aware of that title handed to him in his absense. --Kuban Cossack 12:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Pavlo Holovaty

Pavlo Holovaty, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that Pavlo Holovaty satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pavlo Holovaty and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Pavlo Holovaty during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Dougie WII (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antin Holovaty

page was moved :) Ostap 02:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Hurrah. A small victory. Now to add more material and expand the article.Bandurist 13:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Speedy deletion of Viktor Idzio

A tag has been placed on Viktor Idzio requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the article (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. carelesshx talk 17:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bans on languages in Russian Empire after the January Uprising in 1863

Could you comment at Talk:Lithuanian press ban? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] «Speakers in the Russian Empire» moving?

Здоров!
Though I asked for various opinions about moving the «Speakers in the Russian Empire» subsection from the Ukrainian language article to the Russian Empire, no one but you expressed any point of view… May I move it anyway without being called a vandal?
By the way — though I try not to read Russian (except for Коммерсантъ, Интерфакс, Новая Газета and a few others), this excerpt attracted my attention to this interview of Сергей Лукьяненко: I guess you'll love this…
Привіт! — Kanġi Oĥanko (talk) 10:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute what's wrong with showing that the Ukrainian language distribution in the 1897 was nearly double the size of the Ukrainian language in the Cossack Hetmanate back whenever it entered Russia? Belarusian language has the same table. Moreover it was the first real survey that recorded the Ukrainian language. I think it is important, we can condense it like the Belarusian table. --Kuban Cossack 13:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds logical. I will not oppose. Thats where it should be. Just provide a link. In my opinion it was placed there in order to cause uncomfort and dissent.

My Russian reading skills are pretty, mainly because most of the non-fiction material I read is in Russian. It may even be better than my Ukrainian reading skills. It is however the opposite when we discuss the matter of writing.

Thanks for the link. I shall purouse the material for breakfast. Bandurist (talk) 12:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kuban People's Republic

Hi,

I appreciate your contribution to Kuban People's Republic, but this is English Wikipedia, so please stick to writing in English.

It's perfectly OK to translate from Ukrainian to English, but don't put the Ukrainian text into the article.

Thanks for understanding and for your contributions! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Civility warning

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, we remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you.

This edit was over the top, please avoid such personal attacks in future Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crimean demographics

I ask you respond to the criticism of your new addition to the Crimea article here. I must say its a barnstar deserved. --Kuban Cossack 12:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Since you kindly answered my query with another revery (seriously have you considered that each time you do so you degrade yourself into a revert warrior on par with the likes of User:AndriyK and others). I will raise the issue here on your talk page:
  • The only point that has truth behind it is the fall of Ukrainians and Russians in Crimea due to the same problems that are affecting the rest of Ukraine, and due to Tatars returning.
  • Now incidently the Black Sea Fleet is stationed in Sevastopol, which strictly speaking is not part of the ARK, its a separate admin unit. Moreover after 2017 however many choose to leave the city, it will only affect the demographics of Sevastopol, not Crimea.
  • Furthermore the Russian Black Sea Fleet is not actually moving back to Russia, its moving from its historical base that has always been owned by that navy. So terms such as "return" are factually incorrect. I see no real reason to even mention the fleet in the Crimea article, maybe Sevastopol yes, but not the whole peninsula.
  • I also failed to understand the passage about weather the Vietnamese and Chinese, are decreasing or increasing because of the very poor English its written in. I request you repharse it. --Kuban Cossack 13:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Award

Ukrainian Barnstar of National Merit
You are hereby awarded this "Ukrainian Barnstar of National Merit" for continued expansion of historical articles, among which you created Bohdan Stashynsky, Sydir Bily, Zakhary Chepiha, Pavlo Holovaty, and expanded Antin Holovaty. Congrats!--Riurik(discuss) 06:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merry XMAS!

User:Piotrus and friends, in the midsts of Wigilia, wish you to enjoy this Christmas Eve!
User:Piotrus and friends, in the midsts of Wigilia, wish you to enjoy this Christmas Eve!
Bandurist, I also wish you a merry Christmas. Ostap 05:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Hopwfully I'll see you on the 28th -Bandurist (talk) 14:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holodomor denial

I've tried to start my second article here [[14]]. It's in pretty rough shape. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Horlo (talk) 09:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. There is so much to write there, but I don't know if I am qualified

Bandurist (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist, why not continue improving the Holodomor article instead? I think AfD. I commented at talk. --Irpen 16:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Good work on the article. I think it would be better to keep the article on denying the actual famine itself and not the use of the word genocide. Otherwise I fear the article will get deleted. Ostap 20:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree, it is a bad idea altogether and will become an edit war magnet. There are no laws on Holodomor denial and the topic is hardly noticeable, let's not go the Holocaust path. AfD it is. --Hillock65 (talk) 23:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the wishes -- and Merry Christmas to you, too! Interesting article you're working on, it's been educational for me to follow some of those links, and read more about the subject. I read the Time article twice, once quickly, and one more time slowly. I think one has to understand the historical context in which the article was written. I still don't know enough to be sure, but it looks like Duranty and the NYT were dominating the news in the US with respect to the famine in Soviet Ukraine, so those photos brought back by that enterprising cameraman, Thomas Walker, and what they were saying about the reality of the famine must have been very disquieting, going against a lot of the accepted wisdom at the time. Look at the whole context of that sentence, and I think you'll see the Time reporter was trying to parry the objections that were bound to come from some quarters (echoes of some of the POV/NPOV disputes around here!), by putting that caveat. But if you read the next sentence, starting with "But", and ending with "triumph in journalistic emphasis" (which goes into the title), it becomes quite apparent where the heart of that reporter was (namely, with the victims of the Holodomor):

For people who want to see starved and starving Russians, Cameraman Walker opened his portfolio last week. Samples:

DEATH FROM STARVATION IN A SOVIET HAY CART.
Although he worked on a community farm, where food was plentiful, this peasant died of starvation. He had crawled into his little hay cart to rest from his forced labor and never woke up.
LIKE A FROG
This younger child (see cut) crawled about the floor like a frog, and its poor little body was so deformed from lack of nourishment that it did not resemble a human being. Its mother had died of starvation when it was one year old.
ANOTHER OF THE 66 BODIES. . . .*
Such pictures prove nothing, since almost any picture could be made to lie. But served up last week by Hearstpapers to seeing-is-believing readers, Cameraman Walker's snaps were a triumph in journalistic emphasis. They covered pages and gave point to sprawling headlines, whereas most famine facts (Soviet or Chinese) are usually tucked away in back pages.

So I don't quite know how to treat this: it looks like an important, contemporaneous article, and it should definitely be quoted somewhere. But I think it would be a pity, and an injustice to that brave cameraman who brought those pictures back, and to the Time reporter who wrote that article, to portray this as somehow on the level of Duranty or Fisher -- to me, at least, it looks like the complete opposite! Turgidson (talk) 04:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] З Новим роком!

DDima wishes you a Happy New Year!—dima/talk/ 22:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
DDima wishes you a Happy New Year!
—dima/talk/ 22:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Stalin Society

Whoaa! is that a blast from the past, or what? Great find (well, in a perverse sort of way :)) Well, what can I say, those guys never give up, do they? Looks like you should have some new material for the article there. By the way, the guy who wrote that piece (and others like him) put a lot of weight on what Louis Fischer said at the time (in the 1930s)--more so than even Duranty. To give a more rounded picture of the event, though, it may be worth pointing out that Fischer himself had regrets later in life, and changed his mind. He even wrote a piece for The God that Failed, a book advertised as "Six famous men tell how they changed their minds about Communism" (the others being men like André Gide and Arthur Koestler—a different level of notability!) So it may be worth seeing if he did some mea culpa later on about his role in the attempted cover-up of the Holodomor, or retracted some of his statements and denials? I haven't had time to look into that, but maybe you know more about it? BTW, I added some of the material from the Holodomor denial article to the one on Fischer, I hope you don't mind --there was no mention of the Holodomor in Fischer's article before...

PS: Thanks for letting me know about Zaporozhian Cossacks : that's a very interesting article, I learned all sorts of stuff by just doing some copy-editing on it, and chasing some wikilinks. You guys seem very active around that area! Turgidson (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes, look here, on p.208, at what Fischer said in that 1949 book. It looks to me like he had changed partly his views by then, but not completely. Maybe you read it differently, but it looks to me he was still trying to spread the blame on the peasants for resisting collectivization ("many sulked or sabotaged the co-operative effort".) Though he now was saying that millions died in the famine in Ukraine, he only says about the CP: "The price of Bolshevik haste and dogmatism was enormous". How do you read this? Turgidson (talk) 01:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. But I can tell you that there are hundreds of millions of people that have turned their back on Communism. Still he does not accept the fact that many of the horrendous crimes that occurred happened because there were people with hidden agendas with axes to grind. I recently won a court battle. The person I was up against was my former boss who because of her hidden agenda used unchecked information to fire me. I could and did not state the hidden agenda, but let the evidence fall into place. Even the most initially damning evidence wound up ultimately supporting my case. With these Bolshevik rethinks they still try to support their trail of thinking even after they change their minds. I know that people died in the Holodomor. I know from the people my family associated itself with who lived through this period of time. Whether 10 million died or 5, doesn't make them twice better or twice worse. A significant number died. Was aid or help given to these people. No. Was aid offered? Yes but it was refused by the monolithic government which also attempted to stop all attempts of escape from the consequences. The bulk of the Ukrainian community in the West comes from the area under Polish occupation at the time and was not directly affected. My father and grandfather however came from the dead centre of this activity. Many of the stories I heard came from my Russian grandmother who stayed in the Soviet Union after the war when I visited her in Kishinev, Moldova after she was released from exile in Kazakhstan. These stories are what I have. Bandurist (talk) 01:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with you—though I don't have any personal experience with this, just what I know from the literature. (And, I say Chişinău :)). At any rate, the thing is to try and get as accurate a story as possible, based on the available literature—keeping in mind that the most secret archives are still not all open, and may never be. One more suggestion about the article: while researching this, I read somewhere that there was an interesting debate on Firing Line after Robert Conquest's book (The Harvest of Sorrow) came out—with William F. Buckley, Christopher Hitchens, and Harrison Salisbury debating. Maybe there are some usable quotes there? Finally, if you want to see one more concrete example of Holodomor denial, take a look at this review of Tottle's book (if you have the stomach for it...). Turgidson (talk) 03:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Holodomor denial

An editor has nominated Holodomor denial, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holodomor denial and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 07:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that rant (and some similar ones on the Holodomor talk page). It makes no sense whatsoever to me. But I don't know, I'm getting tired tilting at windmills and putting the finger in the dike. There are just too many people hell-bent on disrupting things around here, and making life miserable for those (relatively few) who actually want to improve things... Turgidson (talk) 03:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Bandurist, this edit made me laugh. And user Turgidson, please don't give up. You are doing excellent work. Ostap 04:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] З Новим Роком!

Riurik wishes you a Happy 2008!
Riurik wishes you a Happy 2008!

--Riurik(discuss) 21:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another quote for you

Here is another quote you might like, especially regarding Holodomor denial: "The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. One word of truth outweighs the world." --Alexander Solzhenitsyn. I join Riurik and wish you a happy new year, Ostap 22:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tobi Vdvychi

Bandurist, Thank you for your well wishing. Z novym Rokom Eduvalko (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] З Новим Роком!

Бандуристе,

З Новим новим Роком,

Всього найкращого, щастя, сили, здоровля, З води, з роси, і всякої калабані.

До кращого майбутнього!

Horlo (talk) 07:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] something of interest

[15] Ukraines chief Rabbi Azriel Chaikin: "There are those that try to deny the Holodomor [occurring], just like they try to deny the Holocaust, but there are facts as incontestable proof and people must know these facts," commented Rabbi Chaikin. "It is a serious illness if a person loses his memory about the past. We need to understand that this also applies to society and that a people cannot be strong and healthy without having restored its collective historical memory." Thought you might find that article interesting and encouraging. Ostap 22:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] James Mace

I expanded this article, but more could surely be added. Could you please check if there is anything useful at uk:Мейс_Джеймс? Also, is the pic there portable to en.wiki? (There's always trouble with copyright, I'm not sure how valid the permissions on this one are; maybe other pics are available?) Thanks. Turgidson (talk) 05:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] З наступаючим Новим роком...

І ось я знову «вдома».
Щиросердно вітаю всіх тебе з наступаючим Новим роком та Різдвом Христовим!
I will send you a mail soon. Meanwhile, this — «Ukraine: a strip-region (called “Little Russia”)» might interest you.
До побачення. ✓ Kanġi Oĥanko (talk) 10:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I guess - unfortunately I cannot read Ukrainian (nor Cyrillic). Perhaps a translation into English would be in order? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buhay

Hi, unless you are xxxxx xxxxxxxxx, please rewrite the Buhay article ASAP, or it will be deleted as a copyright violation. If you are, please explain this in the talk page. `'Míkka>t 01:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your edits to Ukrainians in Kuban

Your edits and addition of information are wonderful. I highly encourage you, however, to back those edits up with references in order to minimize the chances of reverts or edit warring. Respectfully, Faustian (talk) 19:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Shall be done. Bandurist (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] re:Balachka

Hey, sure I will look it over. Under the comparison to Ukrainian section it says: "all Ukrainian language schools in Russia were closed in 193". The date isn't complete. Can you get the full one? I will look over the other things now. Regards, Ostap 03:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

My knowledge of this subject is slim; I think User:Halibutt may know more.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts again

Bandurist just because you can appeal to a wide array of users who having no involvement might agree with your edits, its still does not explain that you have simply reverted your old version, including the old spelling mistakes. Now if you want to throw away all the discussion above and continue to degrade into an edit warrior, ignoring any consensus drives, I will file an RfC because I had enough of this. Please stop and discuss issues. --Kuban Cossack 11:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Can I also point your attention to this passage, just in case you next try to re-insert the forum text. --Kuban Cossack 20:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Taraban

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[edit] Floyarka

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[edit] OST-Arbeiter

Hey, there is already a page called "Eastern Workers". The title Ostarbeiter redirects to it. Should we redirect that eastern worker article to your OST-Arbeiter article? Yours is clearly longer and better sourced. Or do you want to basically replace Eastern Workers with your material - which is pretty much everything there now and much more? Ostap 05:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC

Eastern workers doesn't quite describe it does it. In Russian and Ukrainian they don't say Eastern workers but OST Arbeiters. I think it better like that. I actually didn't know that there was an Eastern Workers article until last night. I think it would be better to redirect it to my article I will continue to add to it Bandurist (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I redirected eastern workers. Ostap 01:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
OK. This certainly is an underdeveloped area which seems to be becoming topical. I met a whole bunch of OST Arbeiter in Australia some 20-30 years ago. What amazes me is that so few were found here in Canada when theuy wanted to document them. I watched the documentary film about them in Ukraine in March last year and they were treated very poorly when they returned. (talk) 12:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image source problem

This image which you uploaded does not seem to exist on http://www. deathcamps.org/ occupation/babi%20yar.html where you indicated it was taken from. Can you please correct this. Jd2718 (talk) 06:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

No. The original site seems to have disappeared. Bandurist (talk) 13:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DYK!

Updated DYK query On 4 February 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article OST-Arbeiter, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Congrats! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Have a look at this

I thought you might find this funny. Read this article. It was like that for two years. Ostap 02:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Up to date information. That is what Wikipedia is about. I actually spent a week there one day (or just across the river in Enerhodar at the Hotel "Atomnyj" with Julian Kytasty performing for the Collective farmers at places like the Sovhoz named after Vatutin etc who found it difficult to understand that we were from North America.

Thank you for the Mirth. 12:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Прохання

У мне до Вас є невелике прохання (не пов'язане з Вікіпедією). Перегляньте, будь-ласка, вашу електронну пошту.--UA-Cinema (talk) 10:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity in Ukraine

I see that your attempt to clean up the History of Christianity in Ukraine article was thwarted. I wonder if it would be possible for a group of us perhaps to seek out a mediator or arbitrator according to Wiki rules. I apologize that I am not well-versed on Wiki customs or procedures, but, if you would be interested, I would be grateful if you would leave a note for me here, or on my page. Qe2 (talk) 19:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I find their views disappointing and approach misleading. Bandurist (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a friendly reminder. See: WP:CANVASS, use other means and think what you write on discuss pages, lest it should be used against you by the very people you mentioned above. With best intentions. --Hillock65 (talk) 22:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Bandurist and Hillock65. I think this note comes safely under 'Neutrally worded notifications sent to a small number of editors are considered "friendly notices" if they are intended to improve rather than to influence a discussion (for example if a Wikipedian is known for being an expert in a certain field and has shown interest in participating in related discussions).'. If either of you have a suggestion on how, and when, to proceed, I would be eager to cooperate. I apologize that I allowed this to slide (out of memory from my previous stress), but I will check in at least once a day henceforth. Qe2 (talk) 07:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Covert Polish Missions across the Soviet Ukrainian Border, 1928-1933

A very interesting article: pdf. Enjoy! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Now, now

I am vastly experienced with pushers of POV. I don't know if you're one yet, or an editor that thinks civility is an option rather than a requirement: but please remember that vandalism has a specific meaning. Also, I have discussed for some time on the talkpage, where no replies are forthcoming. So far your only argument there has been - by your own admission! - original research. So what is your edit summary - misleading in two locations - supposed to mean?

Relata refero (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I also recommend not to use "v. word". Just tell "deletion of relevant and sourced materials or views", in violation of WP:NPOV policy. It is exactly what Relato refero is doing, as follows from your evidence provided at the article talk page.Biophys (talk) 22:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your comments will be appreciated

There is a discussion going on whether the Zaporozhian Sich was indeed destroyed. Your comments in this matter will be appreciated. Thanks. --Hillock65 (talk) 16:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Slight correction on the dispute, its not weather the actual Sich (fortress) was destroyed, but weather the Zaporozhian Host was destoryed. --Kuban Cossack 17:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Metro pictures

Thanks a lot for the offer, if you have time just a few shots of the usual (central hall view and Platform view) maybe a close-up or two on the decorations (although not too close as freedom of panorama copyright paranoics might start yelling out) and vestibules. Also if you can, take a few shots of the Freedom square. Good luck with exams. --Kuban Cossack 13:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kyiv

Hey, I remember you taking part in the other Kyiv naming discussions. Have you voiced your opinion at the Talk:Kiev page yet? Ostap 19:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zaporozhets za Dunayem

Can you write a legacy section to finish off my newly expanded article on the Danubian Sich. Also consider archiving some of the earlier discussions on your talk page... --Kuban Cossack 00:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre

I'm sorry, but I removed your entire section on Jewish victims. Again, I will repeat that you should work to make it a list (a brief mention of background is fine but should be no more than a sentence of two with links to sections at Babi Yar. I'd focus on the list part first; leave the introduction for later. Anything more looks like a content fork. As you can see from the AFD, that is what everyone already thinks of the article and it doesn't help to make it into that. Again, see any of the articles in Category:Lists of victims for the very minimalist approach to information we should be doing there. Anything more will simply strengthen the arguments for deletion. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Had you read the material I put up, part of it was a link to a list published by Yad Vashem of victims. I was going to go through the list today, but you seem to be very hasty to constantly delete materials. This is very discouraging. Bandurist (talk) 13:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. This was an article that was deleted once, listed for speedy again in five minutes, was then listed on the Administrator noticeboard and was then sent to AFD almost immediately afterwards. The first arguments on the AFD were specifically that it was a fork, specifically because of content like the type that was being put in. I am another administrator and am trying to keep that article from being deleted and merged back in. To do that, it should to be separate list, not another article that rehashes the events of Babi Yar. See the other articles in Category:Lists of victims for the way it probably should be formatted. I'd rather have more background like you put because if the alternative is no article, ....
Also, I'm not sure why but you put "В.Багазий" in the article. I assume it was a just supposed to be in English, but I couldn't tell. Sorry again. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
There is an article on him in the Russian Wikipedia which I intend to translate tonight and post on the English wikipedia. That was just a reminder as to who had the articel about him. Thanks Bandurist (talk) 12:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, no problem. FYI, your link about the boy scouts doesn't work any longer. You can format this citation next time with the {{cite web}} template if you want. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Ivan Rohach

An editor has nominated Ivan Rohach, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivan Rohach and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

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[edit] Query re: canvassing at Administrators Noticeboard

Listed here. Jd2718 (talk) 03:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I would've found it anyway. Ostap 03:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Balachka

Hey I am informing that I have edited the article. Now just in case you wish to revert it once more, I ask you to consider reading it first. I have given sympathy to your POV and instead of calling it an indingenous Cossack term, agreed that it was initally apllied to all Cossack dialects with Little Russian influence, that was then picked up and broadened to all Cossack dialects at all. (And yes there actually exists a Терская Балачка term now...). I just hope we can avoid a further edit war by agreeing on whatever else we disagree here. In the meantime I will be looking into the Don Balachka, the term there appears to be native, though it probably did not originate there as some of the papers that I read suggest. --Kuban Cossack 17:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

In the meantime, please consider archiving some of the earlier discussions at this page, regards. --Kuban Cossack 17:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Having waited a week, since you did not reply at all, I am assuming you would not mind the present version, in that case how do you view the proposal to remove the disputed tags? --Kuban Cossack 18:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm in Kharkiv right now preparing for the predefence of my Candidates dissertation. I'm pretty busy until I return in 10 days. Will get the photos for you of Kharkiv metro. I will be in Kyiv next Tuesday giving a lecture at the Budynok vchenykh. Do you want anty photos from the metro there?--20:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)Bandurist (talk)

Well in that case I take it you did not have time to examine my corrections... I will await until you return prior to taking any actions. To answer your question, yes please do get some photos. Good luck with your academic progress. --Kuban Cossack 12:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Updated DYK query On 12 March 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Vassily Vassilievich Andreyev, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

—Dark (talk) 10:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)