Talk:Banyan
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[edit] The Banyan in Filipino myth
I seem to recall there was a notation in "The Banyan in Religion and Myth" of the Banyan's role in Philippine myth. (It is locally known as the balite) I now cannot find that notation nor find its addition in the history section of this article. I'd like to find a citation so I can put it back. But may I know why it was removed in the first place? I wouldn't want to be wasting my time. Alternativity 13:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] earlier comments
There is also a group of traders known as Banyans, who were based in India but traded throughout the area of the Indian ocean; I'm not sure if the tree was named for them, vice versa, or there is no conenction between the two. (I know of these traders because they operated along the edge of medieval Ethiopia in Massawa & Suakin; but not much more than that.) -- llywrch 21:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- It's said that the Banyan tree is so named because traders gathered underneath it. So, a direct connection! Would be good to have a Wiki page on the traders so we can make the link. Mark Nesbitt 10:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ficus retusa
I suggest adding the Ficus retusa to this page, since it has also been called a Banyan. However, I don't know too much about biology and so I want to let others decide what to do. Thank you for your help! --Ghormax 21:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Florida
The section "List of Species" seems to contradict itself. It says: 'The first banyan tree in the U.S. was planted by Thomas Alva Edison in Fort Myers, Florida.' but then says: 'The Strangler Fig (Ficus citrifolia) is native to southern Florida' and 'The Florida Strangler Fig (Ficus aurea) is also native to southern Florida'
[edit] Merge suggestion
There's a separate "strangler fig" article. The banyan page is more comprehensive of different subspecies in different parts of the world; it also has more detail, and a more professional/encyclopedic tone. I'm not sure if there's anything on the Strangler Fig page that isn't also on the Banyan page; maybe the Strangler Fig article just needs to be deleted...? --Vcrs 08:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Banyan tends to be the common name for this group of figs in south Asia/Austrailia, while strangler figs tends to be more common name for the Americas and Africa, if the strangler fig article was deleted, I recommend augmenting the name of the banyan article to include strangler fig in (). I have also noticed that Banyan is used to describe the trees out of the forest context (desert, deforested area etc...), as apposed to being in a standing rainforest, where strangler fig is often used. But my experience with these specific trees is limited, so someone else might have better information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.205.103.23 (talk • contribs) .
- It appears that some species has been called The Strangler Fig, but Strangler fig is used as a generic name for figs with a particular growth history and form. It is a generic term while Banyan is a specific name for Ficus benghalensis. It however appears that some people have extended the usage of Banyan to other species. I would not merge them as one is about figs with a particular growth form and the other is about a particular species. Strangler figs species that I could find on the net include Ficus pertusa F. tuerckheimii Ficus watkinsiana Ficus aurea Ficus rubignosa ... [1] Not enough reason for a merge. Shyamal 09:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that all Banyans are strangler figs, but not all strangler figs are Banyans. Og course I'm on thin ice analysing two common names, but there are a number of Ficus which, while they strangle their hosts, do not send down aerial roots at a distance from their main "trunks" the way figs that we usually call "Banyan" do. Ficus costaricensis, which shares its Spanish common name "Higuerón" with Ficus citrifolia (and which, by the way, deserves mention in the page on Srangler Figs or even a page of its own, confines its aerial roots to "home base." (unsigned)
[edit] new proposal
- Actually it appears that they are synonyms. Examples:
- "The name ‘Strangler Fig’ is usually applied to a group of species known under the common name of the ‘Banyan Tree’." ausemade.com.au
- "Strangler figs are also known as banyan trees. " blueplanetbiomes.org
- http://www.ias.ac.in notes, "The Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and the Peepul (Ficus religiosa) trees associated with the Buddha come under a family of trees with murderous tendencies. ", but then uses "banyan" (lowercase) to refer to both.
- It appears that Banyan (capitalized) is Ficus benghalensis, but banyan is the same as strangler fig. This is similar to Ficus citrifolia, the common name of which is Strangler Fig (capitalized). I'm going to ask for a merge here again (see my username for my bias) and ask for input from the Plants WikiProject. - BanyanTree 06:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Correcting myself: It appears that Ficus aurea is the Florida Strangler Fig, but that the common names of Ficus citrifolia are "Shortleaf Fig" and "Wild Banyantree". (itis.gov) I am still unsure why Strangler Fig is capitalized as a proper noun. - BanyanTree 06:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Banyans (esp F. benghalensis) typically grows the prop roots downward from the branches hanging in the air. All the strangler figs that I am familiar with grow the roots along the surface (and never hanging freely) of the host tree. Both banyans and the vast variety of strangler figs have the common feature of starting off life as epiphytes, with the seed often dropped by frugivorous birds. Both terms (banyan and strangler fig) are common names (like Tea and Coffee) that cover a wide range of species, and there are probably no simple rules of association between them in terms of species. Shyamal 12:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- This has some info in the ecology section. It will take a while to check the literature for me, but I think the botany folks on the commons (esp the very active German group) might be a better bet for good scholarly references. Shyamal 13:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- Somebody with access may like to check out this. A key to the Moraceae PDF Refers to stranglers as a generic term[ http://www.pang-soong-lodge.com/trailguide/07_treespecies.htm generic strangler usage] etc. Shyamal 13:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Plants at first epiphytic or epilithic, with long aerial roots which can form new trunks (“"banyan"”) or strangle host plant (“"strangler fig"”), usually without well-defined main trunk; figs often with inner and sometimes also outer layer of stone cells; leaf blade with wax gland abaxially at base of midvein or absent (spp. 1–23)
- The quote above from the flora indicates quite clearly that both Banyan and strangler fig are very generic terms (they list in the key 123 species belonging to this group. The idea of the forms are also noted - those with aerial prop roots that can form new trunks as characteristic of banyans and those that form roots that strangle host plants as characteristic of strangler figs. Actually the idea that there is no the strangler fig should be emphasized although local usage may give specific meaning (just as people may talk about the pine). The banyan tree is however almost always at least in India - Ficus benghalensis. Shyamal 15:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also, I have to disagree with your last point. I chose my online name from hearing it in reference to Micronesia, and I didn't realize it was a term known outside of there until several people online asked if I was from Australia or Hawaii. I don't think I knew that it was used in south Asia until I found this article. Conversely, the University of Florida says that F. aurea is the Strangler Fig.
- What do you suggest as a page title? It looks like I've being forced to google every single word in the article as Urostigma looks wrong as well. I'm not sure the difference you explain above merits two articles. - BanyanTree 18:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Taking another look, I'm still not entirely that we are talking about entirely different things. The third public link you provide states,
Ficus benjamina is what has been called a “strangling” tree. Birds eating figs of “stranglers” disperse seeds on the branches of canopy trees. These seeds germinate as epiphytes (growing on another plant) and grow adventitious (aerial) roots downwards which tend to clasp and eventually envelop the support (not host) tree.Note the "aerial" and "tend". The first link, "Plants at first epiphytic or epilithic, with long aerial roots which can form new trunks (“banyan”) or strangle host plant (“strangler fig”), usually without well-defined main trunk" is most clear, while the second, "In the group known as strangler figs, a seed germinates in the leaf litter accumulated in another tree, usually in the axis between two branches. The fig sapling develops roots down the trunk of the host tree until reaching the ground." doesn't compare. I don't have access to JSTOR. In comparison, see washington.edu,
Banyans usually do the opposite: they sprout from seeds that have been left by birds high in a tree, and grow down toward the ground. The seedling first anchors itself by sending roots into the little pocket of decaying leaves or moss where it has sprouted, then it wraps more and more roots around the tree that supports it, called the "host" tree. Soon the banyan's roots are spreading down the trunk, and finally they reach all the way to the ground.
Exactly the same definition you are giving strangler figs. In the photos here with captions such as "At the base, the banyan roots already circle over half of the palm's trunk and as they enter the ground they will be able to grow much more vigorously."
The description of another species known as the Strangler Fig, F. watkinsiania (csu.edu.au) doesn't even mention the trunk of the host:
The seeds of these plants germinate high on the branches of other rainforest trees and send down aerial roots. When these reach the ground, they take root, thicken and gradually enclose the original tree which dies and rots away. Eventually a fig tree with a hollow trunk is formed.
My inclination is to maintain one article and note that definitions may differ. - BanyanTree 20:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think we seem to agree. For the Florida region F. aurea is perhaps the strangler (in local usage). Unfortunately in South Asia, we have many species of strangler figs and the term is used to describe the habit rather than to refer to a species. And the early stage growth of many Ficus species including the Banyan (Ficus benghalensis), also involves first getting to the ground along the host trunk (the shortest route, really) and later putting down the aerial prop roots. So in the early stage they are also quite similar to stranglers. But there are strangler figs that do not have aerial prop roots and my photo in the commons that we discussed is one of those. These grow on forest trees and smother the host and using the host to reach high above the canopy to reach into the sunlit zone. In order to make up for their poor root support, they grow buttress roots to increase their stability. I agree that there is no need for individual articles. In fact all this could even be covered under the Moraceae. Between sources, I would choose the flora of China or other floras in preference to websites. And here is what EB says. So essentially, the usage the strangler fig is something that can be used only in casual and local usage not unlike the pine. Similar story with the Banyan, except that for about about 1 billion Indians it usually means Ficus benghalensis [2]but EB there may some other species being referred to which only botanists would be able to tell apart ! And the folk taxonomy feature of the Banyan is the aerial prop root. Hope this helps. Shyamal 01:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
