Talk:Bantustan

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[edit] -stan

Where does the -stan come from? Is it just an analogy with Pakistan, Afghanistan,...? -- Error 01:55, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Was KwaZulu ever really a Bantustan ? I know the government wanted it, but I thought Buthelezi stonewalled them and never accepted the designation ? Wizzy 11:18, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Bantustan was never an official term for the homelands, it was a term created by the policy's opponents in order to point out how ridiculous the claim of their independant truly was. In this regard the use of the term Bantustan with the "-stan" reminds the reader of the various Soviet satellites, which though nominally independant USSR countries, were quite obviously and blatantly Russian puppets, and so the reality that the Homelands were merely puppet states of the Apartheid govt is revealed to the reader. Impi 00:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Diplomatic recognition

The article says of the Bantustans "However, none of them received recognition from the outside world".

I've heard accusations that certain nations (including Israel and Taiwan) granted diplomatic recognition to the Bantustans. Does anyone have reliable sources on this matter? Andjam 15:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems that Israel and Taiwan had trade relations with at least one of the Bantustans, Bophuthatswana, which was allowed to open a trade office in Tel Aviv - but this didn't constitute diplomatic recognition. -- ChrisO 18:38, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Botswana

I'm going to re-revert this. Botswana is often confused with Bophutatswana, and was also historically associated with Lesotho and Swaziland. Please argue here if you feel strongly about it. Thanks Guinnog 00:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's more misleading to include Botswana in the list. It's a neighbouring country, not an enclave. -- ChrisO 00:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Historically it's been just as dependent on SA over the years. Plus the connon confusion above. Guinnog 00:10, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish article

The article from the Spanish wiki is great. Perhaps someone that speaks Spanish well can translate parts of it and expand this one.

Hmmm ... Actually, I was the major editor of that article (es:Bantustán). I could try doing what you suggest. Anagnorisis 05:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section bashing Israel

It was exclusively targeting Israel and was exclusively based on a quote by John Dugard. Surely I would expect a South African to use SA expressions, but that does not make it notable, other than for propaganda purposes. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you "expect" an Israeli political scientist and former Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem who is not South African to use the same term?[1]Homey 01:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Israeli internal political fighting is fierce, and it is a democracy with free press. But it is disingenuous to use such quotations in order to bash the State of Israel, in this case exclusively. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Having just read it, I don't think it necessarily was "bashing Israel", though I would say it was too long and perhaps not general enough. The contemporary usage certainly needs to be mentioned and it's not satisfactory to remove that section entirely. I've rewritten it and restored it to the article - see what you think. -- ChrisO 07:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you ChrisO, but this is not better. Here is what's wrong with that section:
  1. it exclusively singles out Israel. Is this the only case of Bantustans other than apartheid SA on the planet?
  2. See Israel and the United Nations. The pre-reform UNHCR is not a WP:RS.
  3. it is titled Usage in non-South African contexts. So far I can see a single context - anti-Israel propaganda, and it does not even get rebuked.
  4. it does not mention that John Dugard is South African lawyer.
  5. That link is broken. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense, the UNHCR is headed by former Canadian Supreme Court justice Louise Arbour. You can't dismiss UN reports just because of Israel's position on UN or just because John Bolton hates the UN. Government reports and reports by international governmental organizations such as the UN are WP:RS. Homey 12:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If the link is broken replace it with a non-hyperlink citation. Not all sources have to be on the internet. Homey 12:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Somehow I don't believe you are this naive, Homey. "The Human Rights Council will replace the Commission on Human Rights, which will be formally abolished on 16 June 2006." [2]
Since some of my points were addressed, I made a compromise. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised you took out the Canadian reference. Homey 04:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Which one? ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Some people may compare it to Israel, but some of the same people also compare Israel to Nazism, it is uterly unencyclopedic. Bantustan only exists in the South African context, it is obvious that one would not apply it to an entirely different region for neutral reasons.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You and Humus seriously misunderstand the point of this section. We aren't in the business of determining whether the "Bantustan" tag is justified - all we're doing is documenting how it's been used. That is encyclopedic by definition. Presenting a POV as fact could be considered propangandistic. Describing a particular POV neutrally isn't. In fact, doing this is explicitly required by WP:NPOV.
The fact that the term "Bantustan" is used in relation to Israel is indisputable, whether or not you agree with it being justifiable. Google returns over 72,000 results on the two terms, Google Books finds 91 books using the terms (including an entire book called "Bantustan Gaza" from 1985) and Google News retrieves 16 press articles using the terms in the last month alone. The use of the term is certainly controversial but the fact that it has been widely used in the first place cannot reasonably be disputed. If you are deleting a neutral statement of fact because you dislike the subject matter, that's of course a violation of the NPOV policy. Don't do it. And frankly, as an administrator Humus should know better. -- ChrisO 12:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
We are not arguing that the comparison hasn't been made, or even that it isn't common. We are arguing that the section is completly unencyclopedic and needlessly inflammatory. It would be one thing to make the case that the presentation of the accusation that "Israel is enacting a policy of forced segregation" is widely believed to the point that it is notable enough for an encylopedia, however it is an entirely different thing to take a word completely out of its context and apply it Israel's policies. The comparison that Palestinian refugee camps are equivalent to Nazi death camps is at the very least as common a comparison. Including a section in the holocaust article about its comparison to Israel's policies is also very similar to the section in this article. It is obvious that none of the aformentioned examples belong in anancyclopedia.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, let me emphasize that documenting this widespread usage does not in any way imply agreement with it. We aren't here to include only information that you agree with - see in particular WP:NPOV#Writing for the "enemy" and WP:NPOV#Morally offensive views. I'm sure you'd object if, for instance, a holocaust denier deleted any referenced material on the holocaust because he disagreed with it. You haven't bothered to explain how a neutral description of a controversial POV is somehow "unencyclopedic." You are deleting valid, referenced, neutrally worded content for patently POV reasons. This is considered vandalism, and I've formally warned you on your user page. Don't do it, or you are likely to find yourself being blocked. -- ChrisO 09:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not appreciate threats, especially fallacious ones, I provided ample reasoning for the removal on the talk page, so lets not pretend that you were just "removing vandalism", if you blocked me for removing a pov passage from an article that you were so involved with, you could expect to see a new section on the AN/I. I find your "warning" an obvious attempt of intimidation with your administrator status, and not to mention extremely uncivil.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
No, it's a warning against engaging in POV-driven deletions - it's something I've seen more than enough of in the many Balkans-related articles I've edited. It's your personal POV that the comparison is unfair and unjustified. It's other people's personal POV that the comparison is fair and accurate. We aren't in the business of ruling in favour of one POV or the other. But we should at least mention the claim, given that it's one that's been made by many different mainstream sources. You don't have to agree with the claim to acknowledge that it exists. If it exists, which it does, and it's widespread enough to be noteworthy, which it is, it should be mentioned. None of this implies acceptance or agreement of the claim. This article doesn't even discuss the rights or wrongs of the claim (and nor should it) - it merely notes that it exists and directs the reader to a more detailed article. You claim that your objection only relates to the comparison with Israel's policies, which is discussed in a single paragraph. Would you care to explain, then, why you deleted the entire section?
You appear to be using the term "encyclopedic" to mean "does not conflict with my POV". I suggest you read WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not censored: "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive." Disagreement with a particular POV doesn't entitle you to remove all mention of that POV, any more than (for instance) a Muslim would be justified in deleting mentions of the term "Islamofascism" or a fundamentalist Christian deleting references to "evolution". Doing so is, in effect, stating that no other POVs but your own may be acknowledged. There's not many things that violate WP:NPOV more starkly than that. -- ChrisO 20:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe I made it clear what I meant by unencyclopedic, and it clearly had nothing to do with my pov. When someone compares Israel's policies to the holocaust what they mean is that Israel is systematically and deliberatly killing Palestinains, Although I do not think that they are doing that, if the belief was widespread enough, it would be encyclopedic to say "Many individuals and organizations have accused Israel of engaging in an campaign of systemetic killings of innocent Palestinians". However, It would not be encyclopedic to state "Many individuals and organizations have accused Israel of launching a holocaust against the Palestinains". The reason is because "holocaust" is used for a specific context and to take it outside that context and emotively apply it to the policies of another nation is extremely inflammatory and unnecessary. Similarly when someone states that a Palestinain state would be another Bantustan, they are really accusing Israel of creating a non-economically viable state which in reality is still heavily dependent on Israel, so it would be encyclopedic to state "Many individuals and organizations have accused Israel of purposely creating a Palestinian state that in reality is not independent or economically viable", but to take the word "Bantustan" which very specifically refers to an aspect of the old White South African regime and apply it to the policies of Israel conjures up emotive memories of Apartheid. That is what I mean by unencyclopedic.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that's completely irrelevant to the subject of the article. It's not about the status of a Palestinian state - it's about the origins, history and usage of the term "Bantustan". The last section of the article is intended to document that the term has been adopted for a variety of non-South African purposes because it now has so many negatives attached to it. That's an interesting phenomenon, both politically and philologically, which is why it's worth documenting in the first place. You might be interested to know that 40 years ago Bantustans weren't seen in such a negative light outside of SA - I found a contemporary report of Moshe Dayan citing the Bantustan model as an approach that Israel could use for the West Bank. ("Problems of victory divide Israelis", The Times, London, 15 June 1967.) I don't think any politician anywhere in the world would dare to make such a comparison in a positive sense now! -- ChrisO 21:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I just do not follow your reasoning of why my argument was "irrelevant", you are suggesting that because the negative connotations did not always exist for "Bantustan", it is acceptable to apply the word to present circumstances? I would say that the level of negative connotation did not always exists for "concentration camps" or "holocaust", however when one conjures up the imagery of these words, they are not doing so in the context of when they were not loaded words, they are using them to remind the listener of negative circumstances.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  1. Many concepts acceptable long ago are not acceptable today.
  2. Whenever an accusation/offensive is made, the accused side should be given an opportunity to defend itself. Based on WP:RS & NPOV, of course. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Irrelevant argument again. The section does not present any arguments for or against the usage. It merely notes that the usage exists. WP:RS would only be relevant in this context if someone denied that the term "Bantustan" has ever been used in the context of Israel. You believe that the Bantustan comparison is unfair. Fine - I agree. But the article doesn't discuss the merits of the way that the term is used - pro or con - and nor should it; the arguments for or against are simply not relevant to an article on usage. Please take your arguments, pro and con, to Israeli-Palestinian conflict or Israeli apartheid, rather than trying to insert them into this article. -- ChrisO 02:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
By this logic, why even bother to say that it is widely rejected? In general, I don't think that refuting slanderous accusation is "irrelevant", but I'll make another compromise: remove the text and leave only a ref (per WP:RS and WP:V). ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
That's a reasonable compromise - thanks. It's simply a case of saying "some people believe X [reference], other people refute X [reference]. For more information on this debate, go to [specific article]." We note the existence of the debate; we don't get into the details, much less trying to "refute a slanderous accusation" (and on that matter, please see your talk page). -- ChrisO 08:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Most often"

User:Jayjg has objected to the statement that outside of SA, the term "has most often been used in relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict". Here's a quick way of verifying that. Googling for the term "Bantustan" returns 162,000 results. "Bantustan -"South Africa"" produces 87,800 results. "Bantustan israel OR israeli" produces 73,800 results. "bantustan "south africa" israel OR israeli" produces 31,200 results. Therefore:

  • About 50% of all references to "Bantustan" found by Google relate to South Africa
  • About 20% of all references to "Bantustan" relate to both South Africa and Israel
  • About 40% of all references to "Bantustan" relate to Israel alone.

I think on that basis it's safe to say that the most common use in a non-South African context relates to Israel. Again, you might not agree with this being fair, but as a fact it's easily provable. -- ChrisO 07:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's ignore the fact that Google usage can often be irrelevant to Wikipedia (since Google tends to find mostly unreliable sources), and focus on the more important issue. What you are saying is that you did some original research, based on some Google searches, and came to the conclusion that the term was "most often" and "frequently" used in relation to Israel. That's an interesting "previously unpublished theory, data, statement, concept, argument, or idea"; it may even be true. However, it is a classic example of original research, which is forbidden by Wikipedia policy. Please find some reliable source which makes this claim or argument, as we can't go about verifying this with the footnote "According to some Google searches done by Wikipedia editor ChrisO". Jayjg (talk) 14:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"Frequently" seems fair on the basis of the Google argument, which I know isn't perfect. --Guinnog 15:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Except for the fact that it is original research. Jayjg (talk) 16:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
You've missed an important point. The output of a database such as Google (or any other database for that matter) isn't original research on my part. It's not me who's totting up the number of hits - it's Google. Nor is it me who's publishing the number of hits - it's Google again. The only reliable source on the number of hits in Google's database is Google itself. And of course the information is verifiable, as anyone can do a Google search using the same queries. WP:RS, WP:V and WP:NOR are thus amply met. -- ChrisO 18:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
No, you have missed the point. You've used a dubious tool to do some research, and based on that research come up with a previously unpublished idea, that the term "bantustan" is used "most often" in relation to Israel. That is precisely what WP:NOR prohibits. Please find a reliable source which has published this idea. Jayjg (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Chris, it's definitely OR to say "most often" and "frequently," because without a source, it's a Wikipedia editor's opinion based on looking at one search engine. You would need to find an authoritative source who actually made that claim, and then quote him or her. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll accept your point on "most often", for the sake of agreement - I don't think it's worth splitting hairs over it. However, I do think we need to note - somewhere, somehow - that the comparison has often been made. Leaving the "often" out implies that the term has been used equally often with regard to Canada, Yugoslavia, Hawaii etc. which doesn't appear to be the case. As it happens, I should be able to do a Lexis-Nexis check tomorrow to get some firmer data and hopefully some authoritative quotes. -- ChrisO 20:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Again "Often" would be OR since you have not provided an actual source that states the comparison "has often been made", you may say it is common sense because of the google search, but that would be almost as bad as me suggesting it is common sense that it is not because I have never heard anyone say it.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
That's why I said I would try to find an authoritative quote. -- ChrisO 20:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
So now we have several instances of non-SA, non-Israeli mentions of bantustan supported by one reference each, compared to 73,000 mentions wrt Israel, but only two of those are referenced here. I think we have policies about not giving equal weight to beliefs of large numbers vs one or two people. Obviously the intent is to insinuate that Israel is just like Canada in this respect. So I will delete all the non-Israel ones unless someone can show that they sufficiently numerically significant to satisfy the "appropriate weight" rule. Fourtildas 06:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Even Colin Powell when interviewed used the term in regards to this situation you guys are discussing: " “You can't have a bunch of little Bantustans or the whole West Bank chopped up into non-coherent, non-contiguous pieces and say this is an acceptable state. -- Colin Powell." http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/33169.htm

[edit] Comments from banned editor

(comment from banned editor remove)

You always have the option of abiding by Wikipedia policies, including WP:NPA, which you have violated several times in the comment above. Pecher Talk 14:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correct official Term?

Is Bantustan the correct and official term. I'm getting the impression that this is kind of loaded language by ANC propagandists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.25.255.246 (talk) 12:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

I thought its supposed to be called Homeland! 65.8.53.130 19:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not. It is a pejorative term used by critics of Apartheid. The official term was "Homeland". I was wondering why this term is used as the article's title. Does WP policy allow pejoratives to be used as "official" titles of articles? Would changing the title of the main article on, for example, Canada to "Canuckistan" be acceptable? Roger (talk) 14:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An accurate map?

I have never seen two maps of South Africa's bantustans that agree with each other. One might add a bubble of territory, while another might delete that. The first might show the Maputaland between Swaziland and Mozambique as part of KwaZulu, while the second could show it as part of KaNgwane. This is particularly troublesome in light of the fact that the borders of these places probably changed many times during their existence. Does anyone have any definitive answers to this problem?

206.116.221.68 (talk) 21:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that the best choice would be the situation as it existed between 2 February 1990 and 27 April 1994. On the first date the abolition of apartheid was anounced, on the second the homelands ceased to exist. Between these dates there were no changes to the boundaries of the territories. Then we try to find or create a map for that period. Roger (talk) 14:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)