Talk:Banksia integrifolia/Archive 1

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Contents

1

Fantastic! Thanks Snottygobble I was wrestling with the images for a while there...............

Once you've been here a while it becomes second nature; until then you might like to bookmark this page: MediaWiki User's Guide: Editing overview. Snottygobble 12:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

subspecies

Flora base list three subspecies, the article lists them as varianties

   *  sp.   Banksia integrifolia
         o subsp. Banksia integrifolia subsp. integrifolia 
         o subsp. Banksia integrifolia subsp. compar
         o subsp. Banksia integrifolia subsp. monticola

Gnangarra 07:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked - Alex George in Banksia Book and Flora of Oz 17B both lit them as subspecies (upgraded from varieties in 1994. I was confused myself............Cas Liber 10:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Dieback

This one is resilliant to dieack, but does anyone have a quotable reasource. Is this also one of the varieties being experiemented with as root stock. Gnangarra 00:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC) Yep it is. Will find a reference Cas Liber 02:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Distribution Map

Hi all, This one looks ready for a distribution map, Two options another to copy from would make life easy if theres one on the net somewhere, alternative I create from scratch. Secondary issue will it need to be coloured for each subspecies or one just like B.brownii Gnangarra 10:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes please. Not sure if I've seen one online.....will look. One with 3 colours would be good I think. If nothing online I can scan a couple of things.Cas Liber 11:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
OK I'll look as well, was hoping for the easy way out. Gnangarra 13:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I can scan and email the relevant pages from The Banksia Atlas if you want. Snottygobble 00:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
that'll do, senfd any others you want done as well Gnangarra 00:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool - with the Banksia atlas. All NSW compar is actually monticola.cheersCas Liber 01:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

OK - once distribution map is on I reckon it's about ready to be nominated as an FAC. Any other things you guys can see to iron out/address? cheers Cas Liber 12:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

first version any comments
first version any comments
  • not broken to subspecies B.i.integrifolia overlaps the other subspecies. Not sure I'll get a good result, still working on that though Gnangarra 15:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, the red line is covering the old aquilonia distribution. My geography of Qld ain't that good but the northernmost limit now is Proserpine which is central Qld and inland of Airlie Beach (which is next to Whitsundays and the visible group of islands on map of Qld). I will try to see another map and get my head around it. cheers Cas Liber 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
OK - the red line should end about a cm above what looks like an upside down hook on the central Qld coast. At the stoping point is where the coast bends linland so it is sort of a mini-bump. Thats the whitsunday area. Now to start embellishing menziesii......:)Cas Liber 20:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


New map now uploaded sorry about delay don't forget to refresh your cache. Gnangarra 14:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Cool. Shall we nominate on FAC page now then guys?Cas Liber 06:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

article review

  • 1st reference isnt until Hyrib section, need to add some earlier.
Yep. Got one in, now if I could just remember where I got the aboriginal names......Cas Liber 20:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Hesp. can you ask that friend of your to run the bot over the links if he has time, I think I got all of them.
  • UOM needs to be done ie 1 meter(3 feet)

I done a heap of dabs, some spelling fixes besides the references this is looking ready for FA nom, I'll send it to PR now just incase. Gnangarra 15:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been contributing much during work on this page guys. This is the first time I've even looked at it in a while, and wow! you guys have done a great job. I've done a copyedit and will be back for more soon. Hesperian 03:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

linkfix request

I've requested the linkfix bot to be run over the article, hopefully it wont find any problems. Once thats run I think it'll be ready for FA. Gnangarra 07:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

3 disambigs:

================================================================================
LinkFix Dump
Banksia integrifolia
2006-10-22.10-38-47
================================================================================
33  [[Whorl]] -> DISAMBIG
38  [[Jervis Bay, New South Wales]] -> [[Jervis Bay Territory]]
38  [[Inflorescences]] -> [[Inflorescence]]
83  [[King Island, Tasmania]] -> [[King Island (Tasmania)]]
87  [[Australian Plants Society]] -> [[Association of Societies for Growing
Australian Plants]]
87  [[Lismore]] -> DISAMBIG
92  [[Squirrel glider]] -> [[Squirrel Glider]]
92  [[Sugar glider]] -> [[Sugar Glider]]
96  [[Pygmy Possum]] -> [[Pygmy possum]]
102 [[Dieback]] -> [[Phytophthora]]
# DONE

— Edward Z. Yang(Talk) 14:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, tweaked King Island, dieback, Lismore, entering [[Association of Societies for Growing Australian Plants]] doesn't seem to work though as it glitches with the vertical bar.Cas Liber 19:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The only problem is the species which should be styled as above but the links have both names capitalized- what's the ruling then?20:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

General common names (e.g. kangaroo, cockatoo, possum) are of course lower case. Whether specific common names should be written as "squirrel glider", "Squirrel glider" or "Squirrel Glider" was a bone of contention last time I checked. What isn't contentious is that we should be consistent throughout the article. I will convert to upper case for the sake of consistency. Hesperian 00:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Last minute changes - any more images?

Guys, I have some images of gnarley old trees where exposed to the environment - do we think it is worthwhile putting them in somewhere (I could put one next to 'bonsai' bit or further back in article.Cas Liber 00:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we hold off on sending this to FAC for a little while? I've finally found the time and inclination to give this some attention; there's a couple of little things I want to try to fix, and I'd like time to give it a thorough going over too. Hesperian 01:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah go for it Gnangarra 02:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Cas Liber 04:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Taxonomy

I have dumped an extremely rough draft of some taxonomic history stuff at Talk:Banksia integrifolia/Taxonomy draft. It's quite long, but that is inevitable as the taxonomic history of this species is horribly involved. Any comments, cleanup or citations will be much appreciated. I'd like to hear your views on whether it should be put in the article as is, or drastically cut down first. If cut down, then should we look at starting up a separate Taxonomy of Banksia integrifolia article to house the full version? Hesperian 12:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, too knackered to do anything tonight. Lurched out of be to upload tree image. I think there's a couple more lying around so we can compare and otherwise leave a nice fat gallery in commons which may promote commons a bit. I would prefer to see it in the main article (more space to get more images too :)). A separate taxonomy of Banksia integrifolia seems a little esoteric somehow but I wonder how long an inclusive article is compared with other successful FACs... I think the info can be a bit more succinct without losing anything but will look tomorrow.Cas Liber 13:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Way too much info for this article, if was to be added even in a condensed form to do justice to the complexity of the naming changes it may be taken as unnecessary padding/fluff at FA. I like the idea of a daughter article covering these specifics, in this case there's a lot of information that would cross to other articles and be linked back via seealso type links, even Taxonomy of Banksia would use the daughter article. Gnangarra 14:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
OK -para 1 and 2 are specific to Integ taxonomy and could go here - para 3 & 4 are pretty general, para 5 is a bit on compar which can go under compar's description, para 6 can go in oblongifolia and 7 and 8 are general taxonomy again - so my vote would be to incorporat para 1 & 2 here and the rest refer to taxonomy page (and flesh out a little of compar). cheers Cas Liber 01:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I've got something at Taxonomy of Banksia integrifolia now. It still needs a lot of work, but I thought I might as well get into the main space sooner rather than later. Hesperian 01:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh OK, well, possibly not what I'd have done but you guys have done more edits than I have and my only FAC (Stegosaurus) flunked a couple of weeks ago. Looks OK. What else do you think needs attention on the main integ article?Cas Liber 09:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
You're shortselling yourself; B. brownii ranks as one of your FACs.
  1. I want to rewrite the taxonomy section as a summary of the daughter article (which will mostly mean putting it back the way it was before i got to it).
  2. There are more common names than I am comfortable puting in the intro, and the indigenous names don't really belong in taxonomy, so I'm thinking about creating a names section (maybe just above the description?)
  3. I want to give the Cultivation section a quick once-over - too many short subsections I think.
And then I think we'll be ready to move onto the next stage, i.e. link checking, ref checking, WP:MOS, peer review (i.e. Peta), professional copyedit (i.e. Tony1)
Hesperian 09:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I finally got my own copy of The Banksia Book. Bought it on eBay for $26. It arrived in the mail today. Very excited. Hesperian 09:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Congrats on the book. The current president of the NSW Australian Plants Society (and cut flower grower) says te waiting list for the book is something like over 100 (!). It's hot property. In terms of the article, I sort of agree about the names. On some mushroom pages like Boletus edulis there is a separate heading. I think if anywhere then alternate names should go under 'taxonomy' somewhere - there can also be a bit more discussion on 'honeysuckle' I guess. cheers Cas Liber 10:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Importance

I've lifted this species to high given the distributions, taxonomy complexity and its being one of the original Joseph Banks collections. Gnangarra 14:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Hesperian 23:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Ditto Cas Liber 09:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

reference in name

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~casliber/cooksriverflora.html a quick google on the name gives two source both from the same site. Gnangarra 01:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


While on references can we get 2-3 added into the lead section. Gnangarra

I'm in the process of fixing up some refs now. With all due respect to Cas I don't think his homepage passes WP:RS. Maybe Cas can track down where he got the info.
I prefer not to have references in the lead. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, so I let the references support the article proper, and the article proper support the lead. We got away with it in Banksia brownii. I don't feel all that strongly about it though.
Hesperian 02:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Also it would be good to have "beefwood" listed as a common name, but I can't find a mention of it other than on Cas' web pages. Any references, Cas? Hesperian 02:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Am trying to find references. Have been rummaging around trying to find where the %*$$(## I got Couridjah from. Agree about homepage; not quite a peer reviewed journal or published text :)Cas Liber 05:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The home page states a book Cas used for a source Gnangarra 05:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Was it from this one, "This list comes out of a most excellent book on the Cook's River Valley called Missing Jigsaw Pieces: the Bushplants of the Cooks River Valley., by Doug Benson, Danie Ondinea and Virginia Bear. " Gnangarra
Nope, just checked all my sources at home. May require a trip to the library....Cas Liber 06:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

While Cas is looking this source spelt with single "d" http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/pom_final_thirlmere.pdf The Aboriginal name for the area adjacent to the lakes was "Couridjah", believed to. mean honey and refer to the nectar of the banksia flowers which ..... Gnangarra 06:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Update

Taxonomy of Banksia integrifolia and Banksia integrifolia#Taxonomy are in my opinion done. I'll be moving on to distribution and habitat tomorrow. Thanks for your patience. ;-) Hesperian 02:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

No worries - I haven't had time to get to a library. Only thing, should the wattlebird image be on the left as it is a different width to the distrib map and looks a bit funny. I reckon putting it on the other side would be preferable aesthetically. Cas Liber 04:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I reckon you're right. Hesperian 04:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
That about does it for me. Hesperian 05:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Gosh -you're thorough - will look ati list and see what I can doCas Liber 05:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The rule I've learnt is single quotes and small letters unles the cultivar is officially PBRed, liek a trademark, then it's capitals and double quotes, cheers - Cas Liber 06:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Has ACRA got it wrong then? Hesperian
Partly - they have capitalised the name but not used double quotes - also the actual registered name is Banksia "Austraflora Roller Coaster" Cas Liber 02:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I searched the Plant Breeders Rights Database, and 'Roller Coaster' doesn't appear. The only Banksia varieties listed are 'Waite Orange', 'BC 01', 'Birthday Candles', 'Lighthouse', 'Waite Flame' and 'Waite Crimson'. All these entries are capitalised with single quotes, as are all the entries in the ACRA list. This gets more confusing by the minute. Hesperian 02:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Well blow me down.....I guess it isn't PBRed. In that case, lowercase for the 2nd 2 words and single quotes...Cas Liber 02:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is starting to make sense to me. I think there are three rules, rather than two:

  1. Genuine registered cultivars must be named according to the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants, which mandates a botanical name followed by a cultivar epithet which is capitalised and put in single quotes, i.e. Banksia 'Roller Coaster'. (see Cultivar#Cultivar names)
  2. If a variety is not a registered cultivar, but it is a registered variety (plant) under the relevant plant breeders' rights law, then it is named according to the PBR naming rules, which (at least in Australia) just happen to be the same as the ICNCP rules. i.e. Banksia 'Roller Coaster'.
  3. If a variety is neither a registered cultivar nor a registered PBR variety, then it is named with lower case and double quotes. e.g. Banksia "roller coaster".

In our case, rule 1 applies. Hesperian 03:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Couridjah/Couriddjah

From [1]

  • Tharawal Local Aboriginal Land Council

Couridjah (an Aboriginal word said to mean 'home of the white ants'), located on the Old Loop Line Railway, was once the railhead for an extensive area. At West Parade, Couridjah, is the Tharawal Local Aboriginal Land Council .....

I think this enough to suggest that "Couridjah" reference be removed Gnangarra 10:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. Ain't gonna break my heart. I'll track it down sometime later....Cas Liber 10:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
if we remove it that whole paragraph becomes a problem. Gnangarra 11:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What about this does it give any strength to the naming and usage http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/pom_final_thirlmere.pdf see section 4.2.1 cultural heritage Gnangarra 01:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I should have stopped there, just read this http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/Native_Vegetation_NattaiNP_etal_apB-F.pdf according to the native vegetation list appendix E there are three species of banksia in the "Couridjah lake" area which is where the previous pdf is also about, But theres no B.integrifolia Gnangarra 01:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

late bud, Auckland Botanic Gardens
late bud, Auckland Botanic Gardens

I had a play around with the pictures; see what you think. Here's my thinking:

  1. Setting images to "thumb" means images are served to users according to their preferred thumbnail size as set in their "my preferences" settings. Setting an explicit image size over-rules user preference, which is something I prefer not to do without a good reason.
  2. I moved the "tree on headland" pic down to the distribution and habitat section, as it offers little to the description section but is an excellent pic of typical habitat ((agree)Cas Liber 02:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  3. I moved the B.i. subsp. i image up to the description section because it is a good close-up of cone and leaves. I think it is probably more useful for the description section than as an illustration of the subspecies. ((agree)Cas Liber 02:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. The subspecies section still looked too crowded to me, so I pushed the compar image down to the references. (no probs with this either.) Cas Liber 02:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. I resurrected my beloved Banks' Florilegium image for the taxonomic history section, to break up the visual sameness of all the images being photos. (good -I like the image as it relates well to early history)Cas Liber 02:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hesperian 02:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

PS: I could try and dunk some more pix on commons gallery or do you think that'd just confuse things now.......Cas Liber 02:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Never too late to try to improve the article. If we can upgrade to a more informative or attracitve photo, I'm all for it. Hesperian 02:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

here's one....Cas Liber 02:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


Merge names into cultural references

What does every one think about mergeing these two section, with the aboriginal name we can expand to include usage, reference are available. And if references are available we include detail on why/where the names come from. Gnangarra 05:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Creative solution. I liked the idea until I tried to decide where the new merged cultural references section should go. I don't think it should go near the start of the article, but I don't want the common names pushed down the bottom.
I'm inclined to leave the Naming section alone, put any indigenous usages (do we have any?) in the Other uses section, and put the emblems stuff either in Distribution and Habitat (as suggested by Peta) or Other uses (in the basis that it is being "used" as an emblem.) Hesperian 06:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I have a few references to aboriginal usage while trying to find a source for Couriddjah. I put some stuff together tonight, in User subpage then you can have look. Gnangarra 08:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This is what I'm thinking User:Gnangarra/Banksia integrifolia, also have found an unreliable reference(if I can get a better source then I'll add as well) that says the nectar was gathered by hand in QLD, eat as is or mixed with water sometimes being left to ferment. Gnangarra 09:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks good - I knew the stuff about nectar as a drink but wasn't sure which banksia it necessarily referred to.Cas Liber 12:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I found a reasonable reference [www.rbg.vic.gov.au/__data/page/1062/ART.pdf here], which names B. integrifolia as one of about 70 species from which nectar was obtained. In this case is was done by stroking the spike and licking the hand, or by steeping in a coolamon. Hesperian 12:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

After some hardcore googling, I managed to track down a report by the Victorian Aboriginal Corporation for Languages called "Aboriginal flora and fauna names of Victoria". Really thought I was onto something, but alas! it doesn't record a single name for this species. It records but one name for a plant described no more accurately than "Banksia sp.", but this is in the Jardwadjali language, whose people were in western Victoria (i.e. Grampians) where this species doesn't occur. :-( Hesperian 13:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

the museum of victoria link thats been quoted is authorative enough for the name, and usage isnt it? Gnangarra 13:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes. It is interesting that the report didn't find that one, but I'm certainly not going to remove it. The positive about the Victorian report not mentioning it is that it affirms the absence of information, rather than leaving us wondering whether there's information out there that we're all just too stupid to find. I've included the Victorian report on those grounds. Do you reckon this is okay? Hesperian 13:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes that reads ok, Gnangarra 13:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
It is always worth remembering there is a ton of info that has not made it online in some form or other (yet). cheers Cas Liber 19:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Nominating

Cas wrote on my talk page:

OK, how are you feeling about nominating? Anything else you wanna do beforehand? The mention of lack of aboriginal names was inspired. cheers Cas Liber 01:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Replying here so as to catch everyone involved.

I fixed up the taxonomic placement today, making a number of redlinks to series in the process. I've been pottering along creating stubs for the series articles since. I've got two to go, and should be all done in the next half hour or so.

Other than that, I think we're ready. Neither Circeus nor Tony1 have responded to my request for copyedit, and I'm not inclined to wait much longer. What do you guys think? Today?

Hesperian 01:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

When your finished tinkering I'd say archive the talk page as you did for B.brownii then go for it. I'll be kinda around all week if there are any concerns raised. Gnangarra 01:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
All done. Just awaiting a response from Cas and I'll leap into action. Hesperian 01:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Go for it!Cas Liber 04:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)