Talk:Bangladesh/Archive 3

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Government

The Government & Politics section starts off by saying BD is a "secular parliamentary democracy". While this may be realistiaclly true, it is not a legal requirement that parliamnet be secular; indeed secularism as a founding pillar of BD was removed from the constitution under Gen. Zia's rule. Therefore, the secular wording should be removed as its implications are misguided.--Oracularorigin 21:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The Government section is unclear who is head of government. The first paragraph states "The President.. is largely ceremonial.. real power held by Prime Minister."" The second paragraph states "prime minister is ceremonially appointed by the president." Which is it? --Ralph

If you are aware of how parliamentary democracies work, you'd know the answer already. In such systems, the president has a ceremonial post, with no real executive power. However, the president appoints the prime minister. This is actually a formality, as the president merely approves the person nominated by the majority party. Hope this helps. --Ragib 18:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. May I suggest updating the article instead of this discussion. I'm familiar with parliamentary systems but found the government section unclear. I'll be glad to try myself buy others I'm sure are more qualified. --Ralphyoung 03:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Pics

with 2 pics gone, are we a bit too low on pic count? Maybe its fine, I don't know.--ppm 02:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

related...boat or shat gombuj mosque (if we must chose)? I would say boat, just because its so quintessential. and we already have 2 other pics on structures--ppm 02:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
If you have to make a choice, the boat image, I think, should be there. You can replace the shat gombuj mosque, though in that case, the boat image would be placed in a rather inappropriate location. The satelite image is so nice, but still, can it be removed from the economy section? Another point, what is the difficulty in adding one or 2 pics beside the "notes", a la Kerala? --Dwaipayanc 05:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with the idea.--ppm 06:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
satellite back in geo--ppm 06:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There are some cosmetic changes that I think will make the article a little bit nicer:

  • Moving some pics to the left (like Kerala and India)
  • Reducing the size of the pic in the subdivisions section to make it 'fit' (~200px would be fine)
  • Moving the templates like 'sisterlinks', 'indic text' and 'portal' to the Notes section

What do you think about them? Are they worth implementing? I could make these changes myself but I think there has to be some general agreement in favour of this (moving pics left goes against the MOS AFAIK). Also, we could move one or two pics to the notes section. There is no difficulty involved in that, it just needs some more opinion before being done. Sheehan (Talk) 03:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should wait till FAC comes to a conclusion? I am not against the ideas per se, though.--ppm 04:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that this is a FA, we could implement those changes. I've experimented with moving some pics left (only if a section has more than one pic, obviously) and it looks pretty nice to me. Sheehan (Talk) 08:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
SOMEONE FIX THE FLAGS!!! THE PICTURES ARE PICS OF ASSES. Blah0401 02:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ranking according to Muslim Population

This article states that Bangladesh is ranked 3rd according to highest muslim population. It also sates that Bangladesh has a lower Muslim population than India, which is right. But it gives a wrong information. According to this article, India is 2nd and Bangladesh is 3rd according to highest muslim population. But actually India is 3rd and Bangladesh is 4th. Pakistan is ranked 2nd. Can someone please change this?Zarif

Done.--Dwaipayanc 14:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, India is the 2nd largest Muslim population, Pakistan is 3rd largest, Bangladesh is 4th largest. The article is misleading. Population of India: 1.1 bil, 15-16% muslim ~ 170+ million, Population of Pak: 166 mil, .97% ~ 160+ mil. Someone, please correct it. Thanks

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.109.24.246 (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC). Hi, that ranking was among muslim-majority nations, which India is not--ppm 21:19, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it to "third largest Muslim-majority nation" which should be clearer. Green Giant 00:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Ya, now it reads clearer.--Dwaipayanc 04:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Bangladesh has fewer muslim population than India. According to India's 2001 census, they had 13.4% Muslims[1], and considering India's current population of 1.1 bil [2], thats puts the Muslim population in India to 150 million, which is far larger than Bangladesh. I am editing the page. -- alif.

I misunderstood the term, I have changed it back to 'third-largest Muslim majority nation' -- alif.

Congratulations

Congratulations to the editors of this article for making it featured, and thus, one of the best on Wikipedia. (See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Featured log/April 2006). Pepsidrinka 05:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, congratulations to everyone who worked on it, or reviewed it to make it a featured article. Thanks. --Ragib 05:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Same here. congrats to all editors and all meticulous readers pointing out errors--ppm 06:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
CONGRATS. --Dwaipayanc 06:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Great job — I didn't even notice this had become featured so quickly until I checked just now. Beautiful and informative. Saravask 00:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Congratualtions to all the editors whose hard work brought about this excellent featured article. Green Giant 00:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations. Truthfully, my opinions do carry a slight bias since I'm from this country, but this really, really is one of the best articles in Wikipedia. It's far better than most other featured articles. A prime example of how many people working together can produce something amazing. Thanks to everyone who worked hard to improve this! Sheehan (Talk) 08:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

A request for this article to appear as the featured article on the main page has been made. See Wikipedia talk:Tomorrow's featured article. Pepsidrinka 03:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Great job! Congratulations.--Monmajhi 05:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't notice the FA status until now! Good work all. Idleguy 09:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

CONGRATULATIONS to the editors and everyone who contributed to make the article one of the best on Wikipedia! Eendrani 4:11, 11 July 2006 (EST)


Congrats to all who made this page featured. andrew 08:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


Bangladeshi Media

I am not sure why BBC and Voice of America gets mentioned and linked in the article and yet none from Bangladesh at all. We are talking about Bangladesh here aren't we ? Although bangla services of BBC & VOA are popular here, but the audience of Bangladesh Betar would comfotably outnumber BBC & VOA combined. Bangladesh Betar broadcasts almost 24 hours (except for a few hours I think), while the other 2 broadcasts only a few hours in total. As for TV, very few Bangladeshis watch BBC or CNN or VOA. Almost all of them, the overwhelming majority, watch local TV channels -- either the state-owned BTV (which also broadcasts terrestrially apart from being available from cable operators and thereby reaches anybody with a TV set even without a cable connection)or other private channels. Some people may watch some Indian Hindi channels for entertainment programmes, but surely not BBC or VOA [who don't have a Bengali Service for TV] , since a tiny minority here understands English. BBC or VOA don't deserve a mention here, unless actual BD media outlets are also mentioned and linked substantially. If that's not possible, please delete BBC & VOA. --69.71.132.241 05:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I've added links to Bangladesh Betar and Bangladesh Television. Thanks. --Ragib 05:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I would've preferred deleting bbc & voa altogether though; I don't feel we need these two here. Anyway, I've 1 or 2 more obsevations. Are there any reservations regarding minor edits or corrections while an artcle gets FA status or is a candidate for it ?--Monmajhi 06:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think BBC and VOA are irrelevant in any way. Generally, most people in Bangladesh, in tea-stalls or otherwise, listen to BBC's nightly programmes almost every day. During various events and movement, the Government media is usually not trusted. So, people listen a lot to these two services, and their news programmes have a big impact.
As for your question, an article gets to FA status after a lot of refinement. It doesn't mean it can't be edited further, but usually, the major edits should be discussed. FA status is not for good; there is also a "Featured Article removal process" to root out featured articles that have strayed from being "among the best in wikipedia". Thanks. --Ragib 06:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

unfreindly?

Very few politicians have "friendly rivalries", what the point then?--ppm 19:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Desi politicians are unfriendly to the point of throwing grenades at each other. 69.116.150.174 19:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the difference between friendly and unfriendly rivalry is important. Although if they're tossing grenades, we could say "violent rivalry".

World Records of Bangladesh

Dear Contributors

I have a suggestion. Why not list the world records of Bangladesh. But, I need suggestion about it. Would be listed in the page of Bangladesh or would it be listed in a separate page titled "World Records of Bangladesh"? e.g.

  • The longest sea beach (Cox's Bazar)
  • The largest river delta
  • Most corrupted country (Transparency International Survey)
  • The Happiest country (2005 World Happiness Survey), etc.

These things can be discusses too.

Asif Anwar (Pathik)

We can't really use the "world records" in this article. First of all, Bangladesh is now a featured article, with standard sections as specified for country articles. we shouldn't add needless sections which would only demote this article from featured article status. Next, some of the things you mentioned are not correct. Cox's Bazaar is not the longest sea beach, according to the Talk:Cox's Bazar District . The largest river delta is not only in Bangladesh, it includes parts of west bengal too. Most corrupt country nomination is quite disputed (though referenced a lot). Finally, this type of lists are not really encyclopedic, and are more suitable for newspapers rather than encyclopedias. Thanks. --Ragib 06:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We should mention the Transparency International studies. Bangladesh has topped it 5 or 6 times. It is a reputable study. If you have credentialed rebuttals, you can add those too. That is what NPOV is all about. For example in the government or economy section we could add: "According to Transparency International Bangladesh has been one of the most corrupt countries in the world for the last 5 years."--Dejo 00:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think anybody's against adding it. However, the point is that there are surely many studies that say this and that and we can only ensure that a representative collection of them are in the article. I believe the ecomony and demographics sections have enough information and references that suitably represent the problems Bangladesh face, if not that particular study.--ppm 01:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Map?

What's with the map?--ppm 01:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Genocide

Why is there no discussion on what happened to the Paki army personnel that had surrenedered? Why is there no mention of why there was no war crimes tribunal? Why is there nothing on the stance that other countries had taken during the War of Liberation; indeed the stance taken by the "Muslim" Arabs? Why is there nothing on Jinnah's declaration that the west and (the then) east Pakistan's sole official language should be Urdu? Seems like a wholly biased piece of editing to me!--Oracularorigin 21:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the Genocide in 1971? I would really be curious to hear from the editors. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.128.73.2 (talk • contribs).

I can see at least the following lines on the genocide. So it is wrong to assume editors missed such an important thing:
"Yahya's methods were extremely bloody, and the violence of the war resulted in large scale civilian deaths.[12] Chief targets included intellectuals and Hindus. About ten million refugees fled to neighbouring India.[13] Estimates of those massacred range from several hundred thousand to 3 million."--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


You have carefully avoided numbers? According to National Geographic the number is 3 million. Official count of around the cities and towns only exceeded a million. Nobody counted the bodies in the villages and no count is there for the bodies that were washed down river. (NOVO)

Pls try to READ. "Estimates of those massacred range from several hundred thousand to 3 million."--69.107.147.9 19:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My father had mentioned that the 3 million number came from a speech of Bangabandhu in which there was some discrepancy as to whether it was 300,000 or 3,000,000. Anyway, according to calculations, if it was 3 million, the Pak army would have to have massacred around 11,111 civilians per day for the 9-month period. It was a genocide, no question, but I think the number is inflated to emphasize the brutality of the Pak army 67.133.81.135 22:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Maruf

well the article is NOT endorsing any view, just reporting the common estimates.--ppm 00:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the word "Bengal"

I have replaced the sentence ".. exact origin of the word "bangla" is not known " The first references of the word Banga or Vanga can be seen in ancient Sanskrit epics like Mahabharata and Kautilya 's Arthasastra". Reference is History of BangladeshBharatveer 11:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

How in the world is that related to the "origin"?? Is Arthasastra or Mahabharata the origin of names of places?--ppm 15:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. it is a proof that that place name "banga" or vanga existed from ancient names.It also shows that the sentence which said the exact origin is not known is misleading.Bharatveer 03:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you implying that a reference to something in Mahabharata is a proof that Mahabharata is the "origin" of that name? You seem to be under the impression that Vyas named everything.--ppm 03:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentence "The exact origin of the word Bangla or Bengal is unknown" is misleading and erroneous .The word "Bengal" is derived from the root Sanskrit word "Banga" or Vanga . This being the case how can you say that the origin of the word " bengal" is unknown. I am not under any impression that Vyas named everything. But it is very much clear that the place name "Vanga" existed from the times of Vyasa. -Bharatveer 04:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"Vanga", another way to pronounce "Banga". Fine... Aurthoshastra mentions it. So? Does that imply "origin"? That wikipedia mentions "India", does it make it the "origin" of the word? --Ragib 04:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Its not just another way of pronouncing "Banga" . The origin of the word is of ancient antiquity.You cannot just have a sentence saying that the exact origins are unknown .Your example of India and wikipedia looks quite childish . It would have been true if Wikipedia was older than the word India.I feel that the mention of the Sankrit epics is causing "inflammatory" feelings in my 'south asian' friends. So I will add a "citation needed" tag for that sentence for time being.Bharatveer 04:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

If there is no information about it, or not specific info, the citation needed tag is a redundancy. Your feeling is irrelevant, and so is your sneaky comments on editors rather than content. By the way this refers the origin to aborigines of the region, and not sanskrit, as the origin of the word. --Ragib 04:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
And aha!, the library of congress mentions the origin of the word from the local dravidian tribes: "Historians believe that Bengal, the area comprising present-day Bangladesh and the Indian state of West Bengal, was settled in about 1000 B.C. by Dravidian-speaking peoples who were later known as the Bang. Their homeland bore various titles that reflected earlier tribal names, such as Vanga, Banga, Bangala, Bangal, and Bengal." [3]. Thank you. --Ragib 04:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
You are most welcome.Its good to know that good old AIT proved helpful for my south asian friends , but for how long .Bharatveer 04:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


Ha ha ha, this is hilarious :D--ppm 00:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The BuddhaIdol

Do we have any info that this is from Bangladesh. The Pala dynasty controlled half of North India at some point. Some info would be nice, or a picture from a existing Temple.--ppm 15:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Repeat: this article is going on the main page. Changes at this point shouldn't be merely okay, but crucial and mistakes have to be avoided.--ppm 15:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not about which region it came from .This is about including budhist icon which was an important part of the History of bengal from which bangladesh was formed. The exclusion would have been justified if History of bangladesh started from 1947.But since the article claims ancient origins, this budha icon should be prefectly OK.Bharatveer 04:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Funny argument, indeed. No body is raising any question about the significance of the Buddhist culture. However, there are perfectly relevant images of Buddha statues from the region, and therefore a statue not related to the Buddhist culture of Bangladesh is irrelevant here. You are missing the whole point about the statue. sure why you are so obsessed with particular statue. I'm perfectly ok with adding images of the ruins of Mahasthangarh, Sompur Bihar or Mainamati, which are quite relevant. I'm replacing the image with the Mahastangarh ruins pic. Thanks. --Ragib 04:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
What is so funny with that argument?? First of all why should anybody question the significance of the budhist culture.Why should two particular editors get agitated by a "statue"? THis budhist image is clearly justified here , but i guess you want to include "ruins" image . So i will add that image there,since there is no fast rule about the number of pictures.Bharatveer 04:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Now you are being unreasonable. There is definitely a limit to number of images stuffed into an article ... let alone a featured article. I strongly disagree your particular obsession with this image, which is NOT related to the region now known as Bangladesh. Also, stop saying the falsehood that anyone is questioning the importance of Buddhist Culture (which is actually an integral part of Bangladeshi history). What Shmitra and I protested was about the image, which is misleading and confusing as it is not from the region. Show me why an image from an unrelated region should be added here while a perfectly relevant image is there. Thank you. --Ragib 04:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I am even qeasy about the Mahasthangar picture, though I see no way out with people who have binary logic ingrained in their heads. I feel that we are putting up with a worst form of blackmail, as we removed a Buddhapratima, we HAVE to put in a Buddhist picture to prove who knows what, maybe that we are not interesting in destroying them! Is a picture of Santhals dancing less pertinenet to the culture of Bangladesh, or a small girl selling a garland of Bakul, or or a gathering in Lalon's tomb or the celebration of the Nobobarsha in Dhaka? This is ridiculous.--ppm 18:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Population rank?

In the first demographics paragraph the population is said to be ranked 7th but earlier in the article it is said to be ranked 8th.

Yeah, what's that about? --CraigKeogh 07:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I just came here to point that out too. Strange that it got featured without that being spotted. (User stevekeiretsu but not logged in)

They appear to be seventh according to the CIA: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html but 8th according to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population I'll update to 8th for consisteny's sake, but perhaps the list of countries by population needs some correcting?

It's 7th in 2006 but 8th in 2005. --Polaron | Talk 22:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Estimated population of Russia dropped almost another million to 142 400 000. Estimated Bangladesh population raised to more then 147 million. Difference huge enough and not likely to be a mistake. So I'll try to update Wiki articles. TestPilot 16:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


The last census was in 2001 which suggests the population to be 130.03 million. I am changing the link (previous link doesnot work) and putting the Bangladeshi Census as source. Source: Bangladesh 2001 census site [4] -- alif

VANDALISM 7/13/06 8:35 PM

Is the the flag REALLY a swatsika? I beleive that the page has been vandalized.

No, the flag isn't really a swastika. It's just sick vandalism. The real flag is on the link that says "Flag of Bangladesh." FrankNiddy 01:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, good. Someone changed it to the real flag. Whoever changed it, thank you. FrankNiddy 01:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

But whoever changed it didn't catch the first line: "Bangladesh is full of pakis that smell of curry." I assume that's part of the same vandalism. --July 14, 2006; 9:11 am

Do we have to spell out the names of the people who put in such comments like: "Bangladesh is full of pakis that smell of curry"? These are our Indian friends who are so "passionate" about us that they change Bangladesh's flag into a Swastika, I don't know why! In fact they hate everything that is even faintly Islamic! Kazimostak 18:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone hates hippies apparently... can we remove that? It's like graffiti.141.106.187.150 16:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, i tried to get that off of there and ended up messing something up... help! I won't try to edit again :( 141.106.187.150 16:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Use of the word "comprise"

The opening paragraph of this article contains the following sentence: "Together with the Indian state of West Bengal, it comprises the ethno-linguistic region of Bengal."

Comprise is synonymous with "include" or " encompass", therefore the sentence, as written, makes no sense at all and needs to be re-written. I'm not sure how to do this without changing the meaning--perhaps it's best that the original author do this.

If you have any doubts as to the correct usage of comprise, consult The Elements of Style" (Strunk and White) on the subject.

Note that this misusage of comprise is a fairly common mistake in all sorts of publications--its not the first I've seen the mistake in Wikipedia, either.--Cbrodersen 12:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I made that mistake way back when, before I bought my copy of The Elements of Style. The correct word should be 'constitutes', but the present 'makes up' works also. Is there any preference? Does 'constitutes' make it sound more encyclopaedic?Taajikhan 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Great work

Really great work! We require many more such articles. --Bhadani 15:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Why Call it Poor?

I have seen the articles on Dhaka and Bangladesh. Why do people call this country impoverished? Its the 31st highest GDP in the world! And look at the article on Dhaka, look at the pics- Bashondhara City is great! This country is not poor!

First of all, Bangladesh's GDP is more like 56th in the world. There's more to countries than just the one or two areas, and even in those one or two areas you have massive disparity between the rich and the poor. Poor health care, high infant mortality death rate, low life expectency. Around 40 - 50% of people below the poverty line. It most certainly is poor. As the article states, efforts have been made to improve literacy and the GDP real growth rate is over 5% (I think) but it still as a LONG way to go. hedpeguyuk 16 July 2006, 14:05 (UTC)

Yes, it's a poor country indeed, but there is a very strong tendency among some people to portray Bangladesh as "one of the poorest countries" in the world, which is absolutely untrue. Bangladeshis enjoy a much better health, transport and educational status than at least 50/60 countries in the world. And despite widespread corruption, the country has achieved a commendable growth rate in the last 15 years. Please stop using this cliche: "Bangladesh is one of the poorest...", we are indeed one of the emerging tigers and all we need to do is start believing in ourselves... Kazimostak 03 February 2007.

Troll

Troll Alert! --ppm 17:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"Physically diverse"

Is this comment really necessary? It seems to assume that other countries have physically homogeneous people. --SameerKhan 09:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

yeah that is a wierd statement.--ppm 22:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, so I've removed the statement. --Ragib 23:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Countries with significant populations?

Does anyone have any information on the bangladeshi diaspora, i know that there are over 280,000 in Britain

This is a particularly interesting and important topic. Strange that no major studies have yet been undertaken on this. We can make educated guesses about the number of the Bangladeshi diaspora. I read somewhere (sorry, I can't remember where) that all in all, there may by about 6/7 million Bangladeshis living outside. Kazimostak

Magadhan empire etc

Can the part on Magadhan and Gupta empire focus on Bengal/Bangladesh? Do we know how this part was ruled, what culture/language florished? Whether or not Persia was part of the empire is uninteresting.--ppm 21:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Added a few headings

I added a few headings to history section to break it up and make it easier to read. They may not be good ones or in the best places. You might have better ideas of where they should go or what they should say. GBYork 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The headings are not according to the structure of country pages. We had those headings in the past, but those were removed during the Featured Article Candidacy of the article according to the suggestion of others. The history section is a summary; see India for another example of a featured country page. So, I've removed them from the article. --Ragib 19:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
O.K. GBYork 21:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?

"Bangladesh is ethnically homogeneous, with Bengalis comprising 98% of the population, though they are a heterogeneous ethnic group." --ppm 17:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I also dislike this sentence. --SameerKhan 04:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
(The sentence) sounds totally illogical to me. --Ragib 04:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Is Bengali an ethnicity? I truly have no idea abt these things--ppm 05:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the sentence sounds odd. Delete/modify.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
deleting the heterogenous part. Assuming Bengali is an ethnicity--128.36.229.95 16:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This sentence, I feel, is problematic because of its imprecision. The definition of "ethnicity" is far from uniform: some may try to delineate ethnicity based on racial or genetic groupings, others based on commonly accepted culture of a group of people, or others still ground their classification solely upon the language spoken.

There is an argument in Arab nationalist discourse, for example, that the Arab ethnicity should encompass all who speak Arabic (including second language speakers), thus laying some groundwork for a monolithic, pan-Arab nation-state. One can argue that a similar philosophy is applied in the South Asian context, i.e. the ethnic groups of the subcontinent are divided along linguistic lines.

I don't have the expertise to get into a full discussion on the topic, and others probably have neither the time nor the interest, but my point is that I don't think the intended meaning of the sentence in question is necessarily incorrect. What the author meant, perhaps, is that what is commonly known as the Bengali ethnicity (based on linguistic categorization) makes up 98% of the Bangladeshi population (though a citation is required). Further, I think the author mentioned heterogeneity to highlight the fact that the Bengali ethnicity is not based on racial or physical classifications, since several distinct racial lines can be identified among the population that is considered "Bengali". I think the sentence should be changed so that it reads "The population of Bangladesh is highly linguistically homogeneous", and a fuller discussion of what is considered the Bengali ethnicity (perhaps including the rejection of racial lines, at least in this context) should be included in the Bengali people article. Taajikhan 00:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Sameer Khan

i dont see any reason to merge Magadha in the history of bangladesh and the unnecessary glorifying of Magadha empire and Chandragupta Maurya.Rather we should mention the Gangaridai empire and the kingdom of Vanga that existed in this region innit.We should give importance to the kingdoms that existed in this land rather than unnecessary glorifying foreign kingdoms.Bengal was never a part of Magadha .So i dont find any reason to mention magadha here.I see in every article concerning Bengal or Bangladesh there is a tendancy to mention Magadha and the Mauryas.Besides we should mesntion the achievements of the early Bengaly ppl i.e. their colonization of Sri Lanka and Indonasia.---Nawab_of_dhaka

I'm confused. I didn't want the extraneous information about Magadha in this article either, so are you agreeing with me? --SameerKhan 05:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

peer review

Put up Wikipedia:Peer review/Rajshahi University/archive1 for a peer review. pls take a look.--ppm 00:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This Article Is totally Biased;

This article makes Pakistan look like some kind of colonialist power, Pakistan itself was a victim of colonialism, yet by reading this article you would think otherwise. If you read this and the Bangladesh liberation war article it mentions 3 million bengalis killed, thats laughable, Even Germany with Gas Chambers, SS, Concentration camps, and the Gestapo killed 6 million Jews over 6 years, Yet according to this Pakistan acomplished this feat of 3 million in just 9 months. This would mean Pakistan killed 333333.333 Bengalis a month, or rather 84000 people a week, or 12000 people a day!!!

From what I know Bangladesh at the time of independence had a larger population than west Pakistan, Pakistan went from being the second largest country in south asia after India, to the third largest after India and Bangladesh, Similarly it went from being the second largest economy in south asia after India to the third largest in South Asia.Today, Pakistan is again the second largest in population and economy, one must give credit to pakistan for its resilience.

Here is more online nonsense from gendercide with this 3 million figure

If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)

http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

According to this piece of nonsense, Pakistan was more deadly an 'occupying power' than the Imperial Japanese Empire. The fact that East Pakistan chose to be a part of Pakistan on its own free will can be conviently forgotten,

I have no problems with Bengalis trying to justify thier independence, but to make hollow claims of 3 million dead, that too a figure that the corrupt government of Bangladesh uses, and please dont quote Yayha Khan, he was persian royalty and a relative of the Aga Khan who only knew about cakes, biscuits, and polo, not much else.

I wonder whats next, 'The Rape of Dhaka', 'The Bengali Holocaust', 'The persecution'.

S Seagal 03:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal


The number of deaths in the hands of Pakistan Army, funded by the very people they killed, has been researched by R.J. Rummel, who has done a great analysis of the data. Please refer to that. If you have any problems with Prof. Rummel, please write an academic thesis refuting his claims. Otherwise, please refrain from these type of rants. In many countries, denying a genocide is a crime. The Pakistan Army got of easy.
If you are interested in learning economic numbers, I can provide definite statistics showing that between 1950-1970, most of West Pakistan's development was funded by money funelled from East Pakistan.
East Pakistan chose to be an equal partner, not the colony West Pakistani leaders made it.
As for your comments on Yahya Khan, he WAS the president of Pakistan at that time.
Finally, coming to this article and denying a genocide is deplorable. I assume Pakistani textbooks are full of such misinformation, so I won't blame you, but please read Major Siddique Salik's "Witness to Surrender" where even he, the PR officer of Pakistan Army, admits many atrocities committed by Pakistan Army. Learn history, and don't insult the dead by denying a holocaust. Again, many such genocide denial are punishable by law in Western countries. Thank you. --Ragib 05:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it a crime in Bangladesh to question the Bengali holocaust?

As for textbooks in Pakistan there have been complaints from some quarters about 'historic revisionism'. I do not deny for one instance that some Bengalis were killed, But I certainly do not think the 3 million figure is accurate or anywhere near that number of fatalities. The Yahya Khan comment 'kill three million' made for good propaganda nothing else.

I think your mis-interpreted my comment earlier, There is an unbelievable ammount of propaganda against Pakistan since its very inception, Some include the following:

  • Jinnah was an agent of the western imperialists
  • Pakistan was formed on the belief that Muslims and Non-Muslims could not co-exist
  • Pakistan invaded kashmir
  • Pakistan is an aggressor state
  • Pakistan supported the Taliban
  • Pakistan is an American police man in the region
  • Pakistan did 9/11
  • Pakistan did the mumbai train bombings
  • Pakistan gave north korea and Iran nuclear weapons
  • Pakistan attacked the indian parliament
  • Pakistan has uprooted all its relgious minorities
  • Pakistan killed indria ghandi
  • Pakistan killed sheikh Mujeeb
  • Pakistan is hiding Osama Bin Laden
  • Pakistan killed 3 million Bengalis

and the list goes on,..

All of these points and others along these lines are just propaganda, outright falsifications, and gross exaggerations. Thank YouS Seagal 06:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

If you have problems with these type of propaganda, make these comments in the relevant talk pages or blogs or wherever you face them ... rather than making irrelevant comments here. For fatalities, please write an academic paper refuting R.J. Rummel's findings ... if written properly with adequate references, it might be a great publication in political science journals. BUT until then, there is no need to rant on what you think. That's not really relevant. Thank you. --Ragib 06:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Seagal, I believe you need to read neutral sources, I believe you are reading propaganda. Your above points and your comments on Talk:Kargil War prove something of the sort. While I agree with you on some points, I need to point you out to these: Pakistan was formed on the belief that Muslims and Non-Muslims could not co-exist. If it wasn't formed on that basis then what was the need to kick all Hindus and Sikhs out of regions they were living in for millenia and kill those that remained? Why was it formed then? Pakistan invaded kashmir, Hari Singh gave the state to India, after which Pakistan invaded it causing the 1947 war. Pakistan supported the Taliban, I'm sure they weren't supporting the Soviets during their invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan is an American police man in the region, when no other Middle Eastern country is properly helping, Musharraf is working with the Americans, I wouldn't call it a police man but it is certainly helping America, if that's a bad thing caused by propaganda then so be it. Pakistan did the mumbai train bombings, I'm not saying the government called for it, but it was traced back to the ISI. Pakistan attacked the indian parliament same as last sentence. Pakistan gave north korea and Iran nuclear weapons, AQK could've helped, not the Pakistani state but important Pakistani people. Pakistan killed 3 million Bengalis, are you aware that the Genocides in History page labels this incident a genocide? Regards. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 07:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to emphasize that there is alot of propaganda against Pakistan for over half a century, even in the recent Test Match in the UK, Pakistan was falsely accused of ball-tampering.

That aside I do not wish to start anykind of flame war here, but R.J Rummels work has already been refuted, I cite the works of Sarmila Bose, Thus there is no need for me to refute R.J Rummel for that little Indian woman Sarmila Bose has already done so.S Seagal 07:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

Sarmila Bose's work has been questioned as well, so just because she has published one paper, that does not change hard statistics gathered by Rummel. Thank you. --Ragib 07:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, Sarmila Bose's work and methodology has been academically challenged by Prof. Nayanika Mookherjee in the same journal .. see "BANGLADESH WAR OF 1971 A Prescription for Reconciliation?", by Nayanika Mookherjee, Economic and Political Weekly September 9, 2006. [5]. There goes your one and only trump card. :) --Ragib 07:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see it that way Ragib, Nayanika Mookherjee is the mouthpiece of the Indian and Bangali government, his work was commissioned by a government therefore one can question its partiality.

Besides R.J. Rummel's work is much more heavily criticized than that of Sarmila Bose, not just from Pakistanis but the world over. Please refer to his article: [Rummel exposed]

S Seagal 07:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal


Great!! In your opinion a lecturer of Lancaster University's sociology dept is a mouthpeace of Indian and Benglai govt!!! Since when did BD or India govt take over Britain!!!! I am not replying to anyone who can make such illogical claims. You just invalidated your arguments. Thanks. --Ragib 08:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I can only deplore the manner in which you have replied to my earlier comment, It is important in the interests of partiality that such sensitive issues be discussed in an open and dispassionate manner. Sarmila Bose for instance is Harvard educated yet some individuals like yourself dismiss her works on the basis that she only published one thesis which was questioned by Nayanika Mookherjee.
I dare say you seem to overlook the criticism of R.J Rummel an other also very well know for his works in the fiction genre. Thanks S Seagal 08:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal


User S Seagal should at least get his facts right - the article says "several hundred thousand to three million", does not claim 3 million as a firm figure. Actually the sources say three hundred thousand, and I will change the article to that. As for quoting genecides, about 1 million were killed in Rwunda in 100 days, mostly with machetes and knives. --Michael Johnson 08:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, this article is providing the the information that there is such a claim. Moreover, if you go through the references provided, you will see that more than one international newspaper has reported more than a million deaths half way through the conflict, thus 3 million is simply not a claim coming from Bangladesh (whether its correct or not is not the point, it is significantly well known enough to deserve mention).--ppm 19:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


Though quite irrelevant to the current topic, I amazed by Seagal's assertion that Pakistan's formation had nothing to do with coexistence of religions. Pakistan was established based on the two nation theory. I am pretty sure many patriotic Pakistani's will agree to that, its simply true.--ppm 19:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
It was never my intention to start a flame war or anything of the sort and I hope that all those reading and contributing maintain a respectable level of cordiality, like i mentioned before such issues as controverial as this must be tackled in a dis-passionate, and open manner. Mr Ragib seems to be have been upset by my earlier comments, and if i upset him or his sentiments or Bengali sentiments that was never my intention, That being said I really can not see any wrong in Pakistan whatsoever, its a country that has been trying to defend itself from aggression for over half a century and is only trying to exist, One can not blame all the ills of South Asia on Pakistan, thats just not fair. Its time that Pakistan's neighobours accept that Pakistan is the country in which millions and millions of Indian muslims and Afghan muslims have chosen to live and settle and they should respect that. Certainly there has been some demographic movement of Muslims into Pakistan and non-Muslims from Pakistan during the partition but needless to say the influx of muslims into Pakistan was greater than the outflow of non-Muslims from Pakistan. As someone with Indian Muslim origins I support the right of Pakistan to exist, I also feel that I have a moral duty towards it and the more I see people trying to bash it the more zealously I will defend it. I make no apology for my belief in the Pakistan concept. Thank You S Seagal 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal


If you are claiming that this wikipedia article is trying to subvert Pakistan's existence, then that is really a untenable notion. Our job here is to write an encyclopedic entry about BANGLADESH (you seem to have nothing to say abt Bangladesh on the talk page of this article), and represent significant views. By the way, nobody said you should be apologetic abt the concept of Pakistan. Pakistan is a sovereign nation. For that reason alone, it should proudly assert its belief in the two nation theory it was based on. these is no reason whatsoever to hide it.--ppm 00:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Just clarifying a few points. I don't have any problem with Pakistan's right to exist, I think the idea of a reunited India as fairly impossible. When Seagal disputed that Pakistan was built for religious regions. He says Its time that Pakistan's neighobours accept that Pakistan is the country in which millions and millions of Indian muslims and Afghan muslims have chosen to live and settle and they should respect that. Certainly there has been some demographic movement of Muslims into Pakistan and non-Muslims from Pakistan during the partition but needless to say the influx of muslims into Pakistan was greater than the outflow of non-Muslims from Pakistan. The key word here is chosen, whether the influx of Muslims into Pakistan was greater than the outflor of non-Muslims from Pakistan, the Muslims moving into Pakistan chose to do so and the Non-Muslims moving out of Pakistan either did it or died. I know that many lives (Muslim and Non-Muslim) were lost and I wish it weren't so, I wish everyone continued following Gandhi's ideals into independence, anyway my point is one cannot compare the effects of the partition on Hindus in Pakistan to the effects of the partition on Muslims out of India. In an individual sense, there was no difference, in a broader sense one community was presented with choice and one community was presented with none. Anyway, I'm happy with the decision of some Muslims to remain in India. If Irfan Pathan performs tonight India's pretty much won. By the way, your claims of propaganda in the ball tampering issue are quite baseless. Now, people who are reading this would notice that I have gone way off topic and have not mentioned Bangladesh once in this comment, so I hope this comment is the closure of the broader propaganda discussion. Regards. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 03:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Denial of the genocide of the ethnic Bengalis in 1971 is as bad as as denying the Holocaust.That's my view anyway.Hkelkar 04:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar were you sitting there having chai with Tikka Khan when this genocide took place? Please do not fan the flames of this already very controversial topic, I never denied that Bengalis were killed but having said that I can not and will not accept the 3 million figure and equating it with the Nazi persecution of the Jews is to make a mockery of POV, its just blatant propaganda of the garden variety. Ragib asked me to refute the work of R.J Rummel i cited the works Sarmila Bose and he dragged someone else into the argument, it seems that Ragib has his own sterotypes and prejudices and its interferring in his logic. Its not my fault an Indian woman refuted the Bangladesh 'genocide' as claimed by R J Rummel whom like I mentioned is also very well known for his works in the fiction genre. S Seagal 02:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Kind of like its not our fault that millions of Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims were united in their blood flowing down the Jamuna. Bakaman Bakatalk 05:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Seagal, who cares what you accept of not? If u want the 3 million figure removed, prove why its not a point of view significant enough to be represented. This is not a discussion page for your beliefs, its an encyclopedia--ppm 17:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think most of the world cares in all honesty, The fact that this 'genocide' was not investigated or taken to the international court of justice or the Hague in itself disproves the strongest advocates of this 'genocide'. Like I mentioned before I cite the works of Sarmila Bose to refute the 3 million dead Bengali genocide. Simply put the Bengali Genocide is a good way for the Bangladeshi government to extort 'compensation' from Pakistan, nothing else. S Seagal 06:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)S Seagal
I won't bother refuting your points. But the last sentences confuses me - BD government extorting etc. Even if it si true - so what? We are not in the business of passing moral judgement here. I think you truly don't have any idea what wikipedia is about.--ppm 06:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Seagal, do you even have the slightest clue how or why the 200 Pakistani soldiers who were wanted to be tried by Bangladesh escaped a war crimes tribunals? Thank the US for saving Pakistan Army's face by stalling indefinitely, the request for the soldiers to be tried. btw, a case has been recently filed in the Australian Court "in connection with the crimes of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity by the Pakistani occupation forces and their collaborators".[6] It is a start. Idleguy 07:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I'm getting bored.

As long as the claims are sourced from reasonably neutral websites fine,

You can wake up one who is asleep, but not one pretending to be asleep.

end of disussion. S Seagal 16:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 : Ok, keep pretending, Seagal. No problem. An explosive punch-line though, from a person who is in deep sleep ! --Monmajhi 21:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

: I followed this sometimes interesting sometimes irritating chain of discussion with much interest. Mr. S Seagal, although was quite right to doubt the 3 million figure (of martyrs), he frequently crossed the limit. One of his frequent comments was: Yes, I agree that some Bangladeshis died..." this comment is outragious, because even one life of Bangladeshi (or anybody) is valuable, you cannot kill 10 people and say: it's only 10, it could have been 100! The single unalterable fact remains is that: pakistani junta carried out a brutal genocide in Bangladesh and more significantly, they have not yet apologised for that. We demand an apology, not lame excuses. He also routinely rejected facts like socio-economic oppression to the Bengali people by the pakistani junta. But I also defy some other people like Idleguy (an Indian, naturally!) who tried to use this opportunity to bash Pakistan. We are talking Bangladesh here! We are not a playground for either pakistan or india to level their old scoresheet! Thanks everybody, long live Bangladesh! Kazimostak

'I'd argue that he already blasted both his legs off with a swan off shotgun when he mentioned Sarmila Bose - the fact that pretty much most of the world media identified the genocide, the fact that there were witnesses to it, yet she denies the entire thing??? Christ, I already feel ashamed to be in the same country as the university she's been appointed to.

Pakistan's darkest history

Before I start,I'd like the people here to know that Im Pakistani. My father is a Muhajir and my mother is native Pakistani(Sindhi)

I'd like to start,that as a Pakistani Im ashamed of the crimes my people committed(or more specifically,the cowardly "soldiers" who slaughtered thousands of innocents)

I know Musharraf publicly apologised for the war in 2002(?) in Dhaka,but the history is not much mentioned in public/private Pakistani schools. Not all Pakistanis should be held accountable for,but similar to how Germany accepted the killing of thousands of innocent minorities,Pakistan should officially accept our darkest history and not commit furthur atrocities that we are against othe rprovinces like SIndh and Balouchistan.

I also beleive that as result of the 1971,we must allow Bangladeshi immigrants to stay as it would be fair.


Ragib,I hope you like what i said and thanx again for letting me post on a Bengali pageNadirali 02:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Actually, in Wiki, there are no "Bengali" or "Pakistani" pages, rather there are Articles and Wikipedia pages. So, anyone is free to comment in any talk page, provided that the comment is relevant and useful to the page. Thanks. --Ragib 05:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

People it's all in the past and Pakistan has changed for the better. Bangladesh and Pakistan are allies now and the people who caused the crimes are detained. --Saad64 12:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

external links

These links:

Were added by an editor whose only contributions have been to promote the World Bank Group (doingbusiness.org is a World Bank Group project). We have recently uncovered significant edits promoting this organization (see this WikiProject Spam discussion). In the interest of our neutral point of view policy and conflict of interest guideline I've moved the links here for other editors to consider. If you decide that one or more of these is a useful addition, Wikipedia has articles on the Ease of Doing Business Index and the World Bank Group which may be more appropriate than an external link. Thanks -- Siobhan Hansa 14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Wildlife of Bangladesh

Kindly contribute to this article when you get time, and request others too.

Thanks

Atulsnischal 00:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh enjoys the distinction of having two female politicians leading national politics...

I changed this sentence: Bangladesh enjoys the distinction of having two female politicians leading national politics, however, the country continues to suffer from extensive corruption,[17] disorder and political violence. To these two sentences: Bangladesh enjoys the distinction of having two female politicians leading national politics. The country continues to suffer from extensive corruption,[17] disorder and political violence.

I felt that the first version suggests that having women as leading national politicians would suggest a lack of corruption, but we really don't have any evidence for that. So, I just broke the sentence into to seperate sentences. Not a big change, really, but I felt that this makes things a bit better. Feel free to disagree... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WhitePlains12345 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

I've rephrased the paragraph so that it flows logically and added another on the activities of the caretaker government.
→ Aktar (talk • contribs) — 21:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ecological/environmental challenges

I've just skimmed this piece, but I see no mention of the severe environmental problems facing Bangladesh -- tainted groundwater and air pollution. I understand Dhaka is often simply unbearable, and seemingly naturally occurring arsenic in the ground and the consequent lack of access to potable water poses a serious public health threat. User: deeceevoice 22 April 2007

Longest Beach

I would like to question the inclusion of the claim "World's Longest ... Beach" for Cox's Bazaar in the article. At 75miles, it is behind Australia's Ninety Mile Beach and even that is not the longest [7] Is a correction warranted? Andmark 11:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting point. Not sure what the definition being used is but here are some sources that support the claim for Cox's Bazar (the first two are from Australia!):
→ Aktar (talk • contribs) — 12:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
According to Times Atlas of the World it is named Eighty Mile Beach and is something like 140 miles long, I have only seen a few pieces of it, it is all sand dunes between the road and the beach.Seniorsag 14:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Section name

The section on administrative divisions should be called either "Divisions" or expanded as it is for "Divisions, districts, and upazilas" per WikiProject Countries:

(Subdivisions) - Quick overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (e.g. provinces, states, departments, etc.) and give the English name. Also include overseas possessions. Link to "(subdivisions) of X". This section could also include an overview map of the country.

The naming of "Divisions, districts, and upazilas" follows many other articles, and is more distinct and acceptable, as is the map I provided of more detail with all three levels of administrative division. Rarelibra 19:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

pov

Lot of nuanced pov creeping in here and there. --ppm 23:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Needs Updating

This page as well as Politics of Bangladesh need to be updated in relation to the military rule/elections etc. I know very little of the situation and am having trouble getting a clear picture of what exactly has happened. But the article doesn't even mention General Moeen U Ahmed. The recent reports of murder and torture as a means of law enforcement should also be mentioned somewhere. Cheers, Rothery 08:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC).

I agree, but this article is just spinning out of control at this point, with all kind of things creeping in that are less than crucial.--ppm 00:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

"intro para needs to summarize the different sections"

Ragib wrote the above in reverting my edit. I completely agree (see Lead section), which is why I made the edit in the first place. Let me explain.

The intro contains more detail on the population than exists in the body. It lists the population rank, the land area and rank, the Muslim population rank, and some info about India's Muslim population. This detail needs to be moved into the body in favor of a clearer summary: "Bangladesh is among the most highly and densely populated countries in the world. The population is generally poor, rural and Muslim."

In addition, I have added summary information on the government which is a "secular parliamentary democracy" and is currently under "emergency law". This meets the standards for a Lead section which require a balance of emphasis.

Finally, I think the "founding member" of SAARC does not need to be mentioned here (it is already described in the body). Just a short list of major organization memberships would better meet the emphasis criterion just mentioned.

Change one or two things if you like, but please do not revert my edit wholesale again. I am trying to improve the article and I have given good reasons for it. In my latest edit, I have removed no information from the article. Dejo 18:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"The population is generally poor, rural and Muslim" might be the worse sentence in the article...why "generalize"?--ppm 00:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Degeneration of the article

The article we had worked so hard to elevate to an FA has now degenerated to a random collection of unreferenced information. The editors eager to introduce new material often neglect to provide any citation for newly added information, but that is essential per WP:V. I have tagged many sentences sneaked into the article that provide no references at all. Unless any references are provided, I will start removing the crud. The huge population figures in the administrative divisions section is also unnecessary. So are some of the images. --Ragib 06:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I support Ragib in removing all information without citation. This is a featured article and if someone feels need to add something to it, but unaware of source - that should be discussed on the discussion page.
At the same time we have to agree that this topic (Bangladesh) is a dynamic one and needs continuous updation. Right now, it badly needs addition of a few lines on the recent political developments in the country. I request some of the experienced editors to take it up as a priority.
The images on this article could use better captions. I'll try to improve them.-Arman Aziz 08:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure. We do, however, need to think of recentism, i.e., what may be a significant event just for today may not be significant in the long run. So, we need to be careful in deciding what should or shouldn't be added. Featured articles must have "brilliant prose", and a natural flow/transition between sentences/paragraphs. Once we reach such a stage, arbitrary additions need to be carefully integrated into the article, rather than just appended to it.
Also, per WP:SUMMARY, not all info needs to go the main top level article page. As for images, we should limit the number of images to each section to one, or at most, two. --Ragib 08:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a one-liner at the bottom of politics sections. The sentence may be re-worded, but it really deserves to be there. Many readers will come to this article on wikipedia to get an understanding on what has been going on in Bangladesh in last 6 months. The article deserves to have at least one sentence that gives them a link to follow - to read about the recent developments in the country. I have also checked Featured Articles on other countries (Australia, Canada etc.). All of them specify who constitute the incumbent Government in the body of the article.-Arman Aziz 02:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


Geography and climate

Is the" Geological Location of Bangladesh [26] (file info) " video necessary? I watched the video, and basically it shows a spinning globe, and then the location of Bangladesh (already showed at the top of this page), and then the topographic map (already showed in this section). So, I think we should remove this template, as it is occupying a lot of space, being visually disruptive to the flow of text, and providing very little information other than what is already present in the page. --Ragib 19:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally believe the video adds value. The other map (at the top of the page) shows location of Bangladesh in the context of South Asia, but many people in the world may not recognize a South Asia map in the first glance. Besides the video shows location of Bangladesh in relation to the Bay of Bengal and the Himalayas in 3D - which gives additional perspective than the satellite map does. It is certainly occupying a lot fo space - but is that creating any problem, like the article taking more time to load, etc.? I am not having any such problems.-Arman Aziz 01:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Ambiguity about the coastline

Under the section heading "Geography and climate", the second last paragraph contains the following statement: "A major part of the coastline comprises a marshy jungle, the Sundarbans, the largest mangrove forest in the world and home to diverse flora and fauna, including the Royal Bengal Tiger." An uninformed reader may wonder:

  • Is the phrase "marshy jungle" in apposition with "the Sundarbans"?
  • Is the phrase "the Sundarbans" in apposition with "the largest mangrove forest in the world"?
  • Is the phrase "the Sundarbans" in apposition with "the largest mangrove forest in the world and home to diverse flora and fauna"?
    • Are the expressions "the largest mangrove forest in the world" and "home to diverse flora and fauna" referring to two different entities, or do they refer to one and the same entity?

In a context such as this, apposition can be clarified by the use of expressions such as "namely", "that is", "that is to say", and, depending on the context, "which is/are/was/were". Please see also semicolon#English usage, list 2, point 3. -- Wavelength 14:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC) Please see also bracket#Parentheses ( ). -- Wavelength 15:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Separate section

The article needs another section, (Education).--NAHID 17:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No, per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries#Structure guidelines, no need for such a section. The article is already 54KB, and at least 8KB more than the recommended size for FAs. The material is sufficiently handled in the Education in Bangladesh article, and linked from the nav template. We need to keep in mind that this is a featured article, and that it is supposed to be in summary style providing overview, while details can go to individual articles. Thanks. --Ragib 17:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Excellent point, Ragib. Rarelibra 18:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for opinion about the Map to use

I do not want to enter into an edit war with Rarelibra; may I request a quick poll among the editors on which map should be used on this page - a map showing upazila boundary with no labels (here), or a map showing up to districts but with proper labels (here)?

Also, if someone knows the exact page of "WikiProject Countries" that discuss criteria of maps to be added on country article, please let me know. - Arman Aziz 04:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The link for wikiprojects is always "Wikipedia:" then the wikiproject name, thus Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries is where you want to go, and the exact text is
“ (Subdivisions) - ... This section could also include an overview map of the country. The CIA World Factbook Maps could be used here, but other sources are available. ”
As you can see, there is no mention that the map has to be labeled and colored, like you are pushing with yours. The overview map I provided is an overview with detailed borders of three levels of administrative division - yours has only two and only one that is labeled. The colors - if not carefully chosen - can be a distraction. That is why you see a lot of maps that don't have such color (and you'll see that my style of wiki maps changed as I created more and more). Rarelibra 12:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, please accept my appreciation for both your efforts in creating the maps. My view is that there's a place for both maps in Wikipedia. WP:COUNTRIES attempts to standardise the structure of articles but is not policy or guideline. The sentence about maps in the quote above does not give any guidance on the preferred format either and leaves it open to editors to add maps as required. However, all major atlases contain maps that use colours to make it easier to distinguish between neighbouring countries/divisions and labelling them makes it easier to navigate your way around it. This is used on the BD government website and the subdivision maps are similarly coloured and labelled. The India article also uses a similar map to the one created by Arman Aziz (Image:India-states-numbered.svg). My preference therefore would be to use Arman's map in the Bangladesh article (and at Division level articles) as it is not necessary to go down to the level of detail for Upazilas in a country overview but is helpful to have the districts labelled. I would however, suggest that the district boundaries are made clearer. Rarelibra's map is used in the Upazila article where the level of detail is useful. However, I think it would be better to create a map for each division showing the upazilas and similarly labelled and coloured for use at District/Upazila level. → AA (talk) — 16:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Rarelibra on the point of map colors. I have been using colors mostly for beautification and consistency with other country articles (which is important, but perhaps not indispensable). But, I do not understand how an award-winning map creator can underestimate the importance of labels on a map. A blank map - without any scale or any sort of label whatsoever - is an incomplete work. It can only be useful as a locator map where another location label is super-imposed on it. but as a stand alone addition to an article it is almost meaningless. I am not an expert on maps, but I remember from my school days - if I drew a map without any labels in the exams, I used to get no credit for them at all. Give me one example from any of the established encyclopedias (like Britannica or Encarta) or any Featured article from Wikipedia - at the point in time they were featured - that has used an absolutely blank map in the main body of the article. Furthermore, I still don't understand how WikiProject Countries is supporting blank maps. The quoted minimum standard -CIA fact book map for Bangladesh (here) is labeled, is in color and does not show upazila borders. Based on all these, I'm requesting Rarelibra, if you want to re-upload your map on this page you are very much welcome, but please at least put some minimum labels on it.-Arman Aziz 02:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I prefer Rarelibra's version (1) since it provides a simple overview of the three kinds of subdivisions that exist. It could be improved by using two or three colors to distinguish the six divisions. The zila map (3) promoted by Arman Aziz seems like a strange choice. The labels are too small at this scale to read unless one explicitly zooms in on the map (another fault is the coloring of the ocean and surrounding land). Another possibility is to use the division map (2) because it quickly acquaints the reader with the highest level of subdivision and labels are readable. Below is a quick side-by-side summary of the three options. I vote for (1) or (2). Dejo 01:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Subdivision options

(1) Multi-level map

(2) Division map

(3) Zila map
Over the next week (at most) I will redo the map to have definition with color and sufficient labels. I just finished a huge project with Japan, and am also working on all the 2nd level admin for Romania (which does not exist at this point). Then we'll have Arman give a critique ;) Rarelibra 02:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
It is almost obvious that the article reader is expected to click on map thumbnail preview to read all labels clearly. However, I don't want to glorify the map I uploaded - it has its limitations and certainly has much scope of improvement, especially in terms of font and color selection. But I'd recommend keeping it there until we have an agreed better alternative. I look forward to a better map from Rarelibra to replace it and adorn this article, as well as the article on Districts of Bangladesh. I'm sure with his extensive experience with maps he can do a much better work. If Rarelibra and anyone else is willing to start from the map I uploaded and improve on it - they are very much welcome to do so.- Arman Aziz 03:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
With due respect, it is not "almost obvious", Arman. That is why we are discussing this. The map we finally use should give some info already without clicking, so that the majority of readers get some basic info. Anyways I am looking forward to Rarelibra's revision. Thanks! Dejo 16:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

bangladeesh 'product' of partition?

Bangladesh history is surely not solely written by history of partition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.57.120 (talk) 13:49, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

You are like the pakistan section and also kashmir. Nobody mentions the names of important artistes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idontwantaccount2 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

POV and Recentism...

"Meanwhile the Bangladesh Military has expressed their interest in controlling the country with statements like "own brand of Democracy" and making changes in the constitution to allow military participation in politics. [25] They have started a witch hunt for the most corrupt people in Bangladesh which conveniently does not include any army staff or their infamous relatives such as Syed Iskander.

The military has also imposed censorship of the national media and closing down/hampering private TV stations. The remaining TV stations were termed "Boot TV" by the general population in reference to the incessant one sided views presented and the army's preferred footwear." [The last paragraph of the 'Government and Politics' section of the article]

==

The last paragraph of the 'Government and Politics' section is fully and completely unsubstantiated POV (or BPOV - Biased POV !!). It features absolutely unsubstantiated POV phrases like "controlling the country", "military participation in politics", "witch hunt", "conveniently", "infamous", "Boot TV", "incessant one sided views" etc., which are all biased subjective personal interpretation or representation of facts/events and fiction. The 2 citations provided do not support the author's interpretations or representations.

For example, the statement "own brand of democracy" does not necessarily lead to the conclusion the author of this paragraph has drawn, i.e. the military wants to 'control the country'. This conclusion or claim rather, is completely unsubstantiable. In fact this quote from the Army Chief says nothing of that sort, especially when he has repeatedly said elsewhere that the Army has NO intention of meddling in Politics. Ultimately this description of the military's intention boils down to the author's (and perhaps many others of the country)own bias, perception, suspicion etc. Whether or not his suspicion is correct, it's merely a suspicion nevertheless, nothing more.

2ndly, the Anti-Corruption Drive is characterized as a 'Witch Hunt'. This description of the anticorruption drive is evidently and blatantly an unsubstantiated Bpov Value Judgement. The anti-corruption drive has not been proven as a deliberate mass persecution on false pretexts or accusations, nor is it perceieved or claimed as such by most people other than being a perfectly legitimate legal campaign, except perhaps for 1 or 2 hiccups.

3. The words 'conveniently' and 'infamous' used here are again evidently pov value judgements.

4. "...such as Syed Iskander" : again another pov. The alleged infamy of the said person is totally a matter of public perception, especially among certain quarters. Whether these perception are true or not is another matter.

5. "Military has expressed interest...to allow military participation in politics" -- misinformation. The citations do not support this statement. Moreover, the military has repeatedly stated otherwise.

5. "military has also imposed censorship of the national media": Misinformation. Censorship was imposed by the Caretaker Government, not the military.

6. The statement that all uncensored/unhampered TV stations are termed "Boot TV" by the "general population" for their "incessant one sided views" is completely POV, unsubstantiable, subjective, politically biased. The term "Boot TV" has certainly not become widespread yet or even known to most people. Perhaps some individuals or certain group of people use it, but some individuals or certain groups do not mean 'general population'. Again, the phrase "one sided view" is evidently pov, subjective personal opinion and politically biased unsubstantiable debatable personal interpretation, perception, representation of supposed facts/events.

Finally, I must say the paragraph as a whole sounds very propagandist, partisan, politically and/or ideologically motivated (whether or not his claims regarding intentions and value judgements are correct in a deeper, non-visible, intutive manner is another matter and irrelevant here) and must not be accomodated in a wikipedia articles because it seriously devalues, degenerates, and cheapens the article apart from going against wiki rules and norms. It also exposes the dangers of Recentism. - Monmajhi

1971 Bangladesh atrocities

The recent controversy over the vote by the U.S. Congressional committee to condemn the Armenian Genocide has raised awareness in the U.S. about these terrible events of 1915-23. The 1971 Bangladesh Atrocities were on the scale of the Armenian Genocide. The Pakistani allies in the U.S. "war on terror" were involved in the tragic events of 1971 and many of the perpetrators of the atrocities are still alive.
The following questions should be raised.
1- Are efforts being made to bring the Pakistani perpetrators to justice?
2- There are many Bengalis here in the U.S. What efforts have they made to bring the issue of the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities before Congress?
3- How many Pakistani officials involved in the “war on terror” have the blood of Bengalis on their hands?--Woogie10w 16:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Unfortunately, no.
2. There hasn't been a co-ordinated effort to lobby this before congress.
3. It is unlikely that any current serving Pakistani Army officer had served in the Bangladesh Liberation War ... that was 35 years ago, and all of the officers have probably retired. :( --Ragib 07:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Comparison with US states

I reverted here to remove the comparison with the US state Iowa. I find it redundant ... the anon inserting that edit assumes that Iowa is a common frame of reference to which the readers can relate to. Well, this article is NOT written solely for US readers, and in general, Wikipedia is not limited to US readers only. Therefore, a comparison with an US state just to give an idea of the size reeks of Systemic bias, and a US-centric view, which Wikipedia must not limit itself to. So, I removed the redundant comparison. --Ragib 07:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Also note that this is a featured article, so please don't keep adding such irrelevant information/comparison without gaining a consensus here. --Ragib 07:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Iowa won't mean anything to some substantial fraction of the readers, but I don't think that's enough to say it is irrelevant or biased. I actually find the comparison of 150 million versus 3 million to be the more enlightening part. Choosing a more well-known location than Iowa might be a good idea, but on the face of it I see nothing wrong with such comparisons. Dragons flight 07:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Definitely, if a comparison were made with another (well known) country, there is no problem. But I take offense in the view that comparisons need to be made with US states *because* the readers are from the US, and they must be able to relate to the yardstick. (As the anon commented in my talk page). Does it give any non-US reader any info when the area of Bangladesh is compared to Iowa? Does the avg non-US reader care about Iowa or know about its size so that they can have an idea? I don't think "Iowa" (or for that matter, any US state) is a convenient yardstick in an article written for readers from the entire world. --Ragib 07:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
As I state in my edit history and at your talk page, making comparisons to U.S. States in reference to population density and land mass is frequently used around the world, including in Xinhua or BBC (or even Bangladeshi) press reports. And I link directly to the Wikipedia article about Iowa instead of assuming that any reader already knows all about it. There was nothing US-centric in my including reference to the "U.S. state of Iowa," although you obviously believe there was. If you believe there is a more "convenient yardstick" then how about inserting it into the article? As 'Dragons flight' says "Choosing a more well-known location than Iowa might be a good idea." 70.243.231.144 07:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure, choose something NOT directed just for the US audience. The facts are all there, readers can make their own comparison based on List of countries by population density or other such lists. Making a comparison just makes it equally confusing for a reader who is not familiar with owa or other obscure US states. --Ragib 07:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks...glancing at the List of countries by population density you provided, I see for example that Nicaragua approaches the size of Bangladesh. 70.243.231.144 08:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, per WP:SUMMARY, such comparisons are not really appropriate in the lead paragraph of a featured article. --Ragib 07:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
the debated comparison is not in the lead paragraph, it is in the third paragraph of the article. 70.243.231.144 07:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I referred to the intro part before the subsections. Pleas read the guidelines. --Ragib 07:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I see...you meant Wikipedia:Lead_section when you wrote "lead paragraph," and so your point is taken, I agree that the mention of Iowa would be more appropriate further down the article, such as in a subsection (or citation) about population density. I won't try and re-insert it again. 70.243.231.144 08:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The Bangladesh#Demographics section may be appropriate for any such comparisons. Again, comparing with a well known country is more relevant than a sub-division/state. Thanks. --Ragib 08:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
If a comparison is essential that can be made against Greece which is a well known sovereign country and has a land-area comparable to that of Bangladesh. I remember seeing Bangladesh-Greece comparison in international media, but can't recall where. Arman (Talk) 01:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Greece and Nicaragua have the same land mass, but neither are almost exactly the same as Bangladesh. In fact, no other nation is as similar in size to Bangladesh as the "U.S. State of Iowa." If a useful comparison is inserted in the article--as it should be--then it should be the U.S. State of Iowa to which Bangladesh's area is compared. Ragib's insinuation that doing so is "U.S.-centric" is incorrect, nor is referring to a state in the well-known "United States of America" less relevant than referring to a nation-state. Rather than continue an edit war though, I'm content to express my opinion here, leaving the article deficient. 70.243.231.144 16:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I just found an interesting article [8] based on comparisons between Bangladesh and Iowa....it points out that the land mass of each is "about 56,000 square miles." But again, this information can be left out of the article in the interest of comity.70.243.231.144 16:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Bangalistan??

In this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder I found that Bangladesh may also be known as Bangalistan, but I dont know from when Bangladesh is known as Bangalistan? I searched in google and found only 9 results out of which 5 are from wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahat5810 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

That was leftover vandalism from the British IP 90.192.186.203 (talk · contribs), which also edited a lot of India-related articles. --Ragib 18:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Criminal governamental "innocence" !!

Even that the tropical storms (cyclones) are regularly striking the coastal areas, the Bangledeshi government did not forbid the settlement of the ecologically fragile coastal areas. Abb. 40.000 square kilometers, along the coast of Bangladesh are fragile areas, threatened by floods and infested by insects and other animals. More than this, the reverting of these areas to the Wild life would improve the coastal defence against tropical storms, will resurect biodiversity, will protect the natural environment as a whole. It's strange that the Bangladeshi government are not acting to evacuate the population of these fragile areas. Anyway, the life there is hard and people should fight hard to resist in such an dangerous and uneasy environment ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Transsylvanian (talk • contribs) 12:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Bangladesh is NOT a secular nation

User:Ragib has inserted the claim that bangladesh is secular, and has deleted the mention of the fact that the numbber of the minority Hindus has dropped by more than 50%!


Bangladesh is NOT a secular nation.

  1. Officially: Its offical religion is Islam. The constitution of Bangladesh states:
Preamble: BISMILLAH-AR-RAHIMAN-AR-RAHIM....Pledging that the high ideals of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah..[1]
The state religion: The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions .. ..[2]
Fundamental principles: [(1) The principles of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah ..[3]
  1. Practice: There is considerable evidence that the minorities, specially Hindus have been persecuted. The number of Hindus have dropped by more than 50% in 50 years. No other nation has that distinction.
  2. Criticism of the state religion is not permitted. People are convicted for blasphemy. [4][5].

The claim that it is secular is quite cynical. A nation should be described as it is.


--Vikramsingh (talk) 18:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

That is original research, and has no place in Wikipedia. Same instances of persecution can be made against *India* as well (with considerable "evidence"). You conveniently omit the second part of Constitution Part 1, Article 1, which states: "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic.". The definition of secular governments per Secularism is "Secular governments, which follow civil laws as opposed to religious authorities like the Islamic Shariah, Catholic Canon law, or Jewish Halakha, and which do not favor any particular religion." The constitution, and the civil/criminal code of Bangladesh is not based on shariah, canon law, or Halakha, as can be seen by anyone. By the way, India has Government-endorsed destruction of Mosques ... should I also make the assertion that India is not secular? ... Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 20:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, you wrote "Criticism of the state religion is not permitted. People are convicted for blasphemy. ". You probably haven't read the news item, or bothered to check the criminal code in question. There is no Blasphemy law in Bangladesh CRPC (or any law about Islam or any particular religion).... however, there is a common law against hurting religious feelings of *ANY* religion.
"Under Section 295A of the Bangladeshi Penal code, 1860, any person who has a 'deliberate' or 'malicious' intention of hurting religious sentiments is liable to face imprisonment. Under clauses 99(a),(b),(c),(d),(e) and (f) of The Code of Criminal Procedure, "the government may confiscate all copies of a newspaper if it publishes anything subversive of the state or provoking an uprising or anything that creates enmity and hatred among the citizens or denigrates religious beliefs. The magistrate can send police with a warrant to the place where these newspapers are found. The aggrieved person can take the matter to the notice of the high court."


Now, please let me enlighten you about *INDIAN* penal code (ha ha ha)... Section 295A of Indian Penal Code states that "Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of 2[citizens of India], 3[by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise], insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 4[three years], or with fine, or with both." [9]. (Sounds any different from the Bangladeshi law? :D)


Also, more law-education for you  :) - "IPC Sections 153 and 114: “promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language”. This has been applied to *persecute* people in India for insulting Hinduism [10]. So, please get a crash course on *Indian Penal Code* and stop adding misleading statements. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
So, please show how any particular religion is given preference in Bangladesh Criminal or Civil code. The same arguments you presented can be applied equally to India. --Ragib (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


Bangladesh is definitely not secular. It is ironic that after having gotten rid of more than half of the religious minority population, they would try to claim the country is "secular".
See Wikipedia article Secular state which states:
Bangladesh - Proclaimed a secular republic upon independence in 1971, President Hossain Ershad instituted Islam as state religion by the eight amendment to the constitution (passed in June 1988), citing the need to do so to combat any rise in fundamentalist and/or extremist militant movements.
Look at the justification for instituting Islam as state religion.--Bandyopadhyay (talk) 23:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
That, once again, is yet another statement without any references. :) --Ragib (talk) 01:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the comments by Singh above were about the Government system and legal system. I merely showed that the same laws Singh cites above are word by word counterparts of Indian Penal Code laws, which are also equally applied in India. Like pot calling the kettle black!! --Ragib (talk) 02:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Although I fully agree with Ragib bhai that by nature Bangladesh is a secular country (as opposed to an Islamic country), I would suggest, since the constitution of Bangladesh does not explicitly claim Bangladesh as seculer (in fact the word secular was moved with an amendment and was never reinstated), let's not add that word in the intro paragraph. Arman (Talk) 02:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Arman's comment

I've changed the importance from HIGH to TOP - Arman Aziz 10:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)