Talk:Bamberg

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[edit] Bamberg was destroyed during World War II

Although the main article says otherwise in its opening paragraph, Bamberg was in fact severly destroyed by allied air strikes during World War II. Also the damages were not nearly as bad as in (f.e.) Dresden, Cologne, or Hamburg, it nevertheless led to a discussion about the reconstrction of Bamberg: should it be reconstructed the way it was, or should it be rebuild with new, more modern buildings.

[edit] U.S. Army base

Would think it'd be important to note that there is a U.S. Army base in Bamberg. It's rumored to that this base will be closing by 2010, and this will undoubtedly have a rather large impact on the local economy.

[edit] Re: U.S. Army base

interesting, but I'm not sure if it really has to appear in an encyclopedia entry.

Another question: does this entry really need those lengthy quotes from other (obviously dated) encyclopedia? Shouldn't the links to those pages be enough?

The Catholic and Jewish encyc. mat'l is hereby moved to the discussion page.

The following texts should be updated, wikified, and incorporated in the above article.

[edit] 1911 Version

Bamberg is a town and archiepiscopal see of Germany, in the kingdom of Bavaria.

[edit] Geography

The upper town is built on seven hills, each crowned by a church, while the lower, still partially surrounded by walls and ditches, is divided by the river and Ludwigskanal into three districts.

[edit] Education

The schools include the lyceum for philosophy and Catholic theology (a survival of the university suppressed in 1803), a seminary, two gymnasia, a Realschule, and several technical schools, including one for porcelain painting.

[edit] Economy

The industries of the town include cotton spinning and weaving, silk spinning, the manufacture of tobacco, ropes, metal-ware, furniture, &c. The market gardens of the neighborhood are famous, and there is a considerable shipping trade by the river and the Ludwigskanal.

[edit] References

  • A brief history of the bishopric is given in the Catholic Encyclopaedia (London and New York, 1909), with bibliography
  • For general and special works on the town see Ulysse Chevalier, Topobibliographie (Monthliard, I 8941899), s. v.

[edit] Catholic Encyclopedia

Bamberg
The Archdiocese of Bamberg, in the kingdom of Bavaria, embraces almost the whole of the presidency of Upper Franconia, the northern part of Middle Franconia (in particular the cities of Nuremberg, Furth, Ansbach, and Erlangen), parts of Lower Franconia, of the Upper Palatinate, and of the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg. According to the census of 1 December, 1900, the archdiocese then contained 379,442 Catholics; in 1907 the Catholics numbered 410,000 and members of other denominations 720,000. Bamberg as an ecclesiastical province includes, besides the Archdiocese of Bamberg, the suffragan dioceses of Würzburg, Eichstatt, and Speyer, all of Bavaria.

[edit] History

Up to 1802 the Diocese of Bamberg had been ruled by 63 bishops. The first eight were appointed by the German emperors; after this they were chosen by the clergy and people jointly; still later they were elected by the cathedral chapter. On several occasions, when the election was disputed, the appointment was made by the pope.

1- The first bishop, Eberhard I (1007-1040), chancellor to Henry II, greatly increased the possessions of the diocese
2- Suidger (1040-1046) became pope under the name of Clement II
3- Hartwig (1047-1053) defended the rights of his see against the Bishop of Würzburg and received the pallium from the pope in 1053
4- Adalbero (1053-1057) was followed by
5- Gunther (1057-1065) who held the first synod of Bamberg (1058). Gunther died at Odenburg (Sopron) in Hungary, while on a crusade
6- Hermann (1065-1075) acquired the Principality of Banz; in the struggle between the empire and the papacy he took the side of the empire. He was charged with obtaining his election by simony and deposed
7- Rupert (1075-1102), as partisan of Henry IV, was a member of the pseudo-Synod of Brixen which declared Pope Gregory VII to be deposed; on this account the bishop was excommunicated. During his episcopate Rupert did much for the encouragement of classical learning in the diocese
8- St. Otto I (1102-1039), the Apostle of the Prussians and Pomeranians, had a large share in the reconciliation of the pope and the emperor by the Concordat of Worms; he founded numerous churches and monasteries and during a famine showed large-hearted generosity to his subjects. Otto's immediate successors were men of less distinction:
9- Egilbert (1139-1146), who had been Patriarch of Aquileia
10- Eberhard II of Otelingen (1146-1170) who with great pomp celebrated, in 1147, the canonization of Henry II. Eberhard increased the territory of the diocese, but, being a partisan of Frederick I, he was for a time under sentence of excommunication. He was succeeded by
11- Hermann II, of Aucach (1170-1177)
12- Otto II, of Andechs (1177-1196), rebuilt in 1181 the cathedral, which had been burned. Otto II understood how to remain loyal both to the emperor and the pope
13- Thiemo (1196-1202) obtained in 1200 the canonization of the Empress Kunigunde, joint foundress with the emperor Henry II of the see
14- Conrad, Duke of Silesia (1201-1203), died soon after his election
15- Eckbert, Count of Meran and Andechs (1203-37), was suspected of being privy to the murder of King Philip of Germany in 1208; the ban of the empire was proclaimed against him, and he was removed form his see, but in 1212 he was restored, and in 1217 took part in an unsuccessful crusade to Palestine. In spite of his warlike disposition he was zealous in promoting the spiritual life of his clergy
16- Poppo I, Count of Andechs (1237-1242), soon retired from his office
17- Henry I of Bilberstein (1242-1251) received from the emperor the title of Prince-Bishop for himself and his successors, as well as numerous rights of sovereignty.

Thenceforth the Bishops of Bamberg had ecclesiastical precedence directly after the archbishops. Their power was encroached on, however, from two directions; on the one side by the cathedral canons, the so-called Brothers of St. George, who abandoned the vita communis during the episcopate of

18- Bishop Berthold of Leiningen (1257-1285) and developed gradually into a cathedral chapter. In time the cathedral chapter of Bamberg was chosen, as in other German dioceses, exclusively from the nobility; the chapter, by so-called election pacts (Wahlkapitulationen) forced the bishops to abandon numerous privileges and many of the church livings under their control in favour of the chapter, limited the bishop's disciplinary authority over the clergy as well as his right to levy taxes, and abridged other powers. The episcopal authority was also limited, as in other parts of Germany, by the growing power of the towns which rebelled against the secular jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical princes. Thus the city of Bamberg revolted (1291) against
19- Arnold of Solms (1286-1296), a quarrel which was settled in 1291 by arbitration in favour of the bishop. During this episcopate the finances of the diocese became much involved, and the indebtedness increased under
20- Leopold I of Grundlach (1297-1303)
21- A Dominican appointed by the pope, Wulfing of Stubenberg (1304-18), founded in Bamberg a Dominican monastery and a convent of Dominican nuns.

Several of the succeeding bishops ruled for brief periods:

22- John of Guttingen (1322-1323), afterwards Bishop of Friesing
23- Henry II of Sternberg (1324-1328), a Dominican
24- John, Count of Nassau (1328-1329), who died before consecration
25- Werntho Schenk of Reicheneck (1320-1335)
26- Leopold II of Egloffstein (1335-1343), who maintained ecclesiastical discipline in his diocese and shrewdly kept out of the quarrels between pope and emperor
27- Frederick I of Hohenlohe (1344-1352) did much to establish peace between the imperial and ecclesiastical authorities; in 1348 he had a register (urbarium) drawn up of all the estates and rights belonging to the see
28- Leopold III of Bebenburg (1353-1363) was granted the right of coinage and re-established the disordered finances of the see
29- Frederick II of Truhendingen (1364-1366) was followed by
30- Louis, Margrave of Meissen (1366-1374), who soon became Elector of Mainz
31- Lamprecht of Brunn (1374-98), formerly Bishop of Strasburg, imposed new taxes in order to reduce the indebtedness of the see. This led to a revolt of the citizens of Bamberg, and the bishop was put to flight in 1379; in 1380 he conquered the city and imposed heavy penalties upon it
32- Albert, Count of Wertheim (1399-1421), settled a quarrel of many years' standing with the Burgrave of Nuremberg and protected the Jews living in the diocese
33- Frederick III of Aufsess (1421-1431), one of the most religious princes of his age, convened a synod in order to restore ecclesiastical discipline and to check the avarice and immorality of the clergy; the opposition to these reforms, especially that of the cathedral canons, forced him to resign the see (d. 1440)
34- Anthony of Rotenhan (1432-1459) was unable to improve the bad condition of the episcopal finances of the bishopric; in 1440 the citizens of Bamberg forced him to flee, but he soon afterwards took the city by storm and executed a number of the citizens. The diocese was several times devastated by Hussites. More peaceful times now followed:
35- George I of Schaumberg (1459-1475), an able ruler, restored ecclesiastical discipline among the people, clergy, and monasteries, and encouraged the newly discovered art of printing (the printer Pfister had a press at Bamberg as early as 1460)
36- Philip of Henneberg (1475-1487) continued the labours of his predecessor, redeemed a large number of the estates mortgaged by Anthony of Rotenhan to the Jews, and in 1478 drove the Jews out of the diocese
37- Henry III Gross of Tockau (1487-1501) was an energetic organizer and issued a number of laws; in 1491 he held a synod
38- Veit I Truchsess of Pommersfelden (1501-1503) and
39- George II Marschalk of Ebnet (1503-1505) had very brief reigns

The period of the Reformation was an unfortunate one for the diocese. Luther's doctrines very soon found entrance into its territory.

40- The fortieth bishop, George III Schenk of Limburg (1502-1522), did much to encourage art and the erection of churches, but he showed himself weak in his opposition to the religious innovations and allowed the writings of the Reformers to be printed and spread in the diocese. Luther's doctrines also found friends and well-wishers in the cathedral chapter
41- Weigand of Redwitz (1522-1556) desired to make a stand against the progress of the Reformation, but was prevented by political and social conflicts. In 1524 the peasants, excited by the preaching of evangelical freedom by the adherents of the new teachings, revolted in several places and refused to pay tithes. The city of Bamberg also rebelled against the bishop; the citizens called on the peasants for aid, plundered the episcopal palace, the houses of the canons and clergy, the monasteries, and a large number of estates in the open country which belonged to the nobles and clergy. Geoerge von Truchsess, commander of the army of the Swabian Confederation, restored order; a number of the revolutionary leaders were executed, a heavy punishment was inflicted on the city of Bamberg, and the nobles who had suffered loss received unnecessarily large compensation. In spite of the bishop's zeal for souls, the Reformation spread through the diocese, and Protestantism gained a footing, especially in Nuremberg and in the Franconian possessions of the Electors of Brandenburg. This period was followed by an era of calm during the episcopates of
42- George IV Fuchs von Rugheim (1556-1561)
43- Veit II of Würzburg (1561-1577)
44- John George I Zobel of Giebelstadt (1577-1580)
45- Martin von Eyb (1580-1583)

None of these men, however, were able to correct abuses and reduce the debts of the see. The cathedral chapter was chiefly responsible for the troubles under which the diocese suffered; their nepotism, simony, avoidance of ordination to the priesthood, and, in many cases, their evil lives (concubinage was common) prevented reform.

46- Ernst von Mengersdorf (1583-1591) took energetic measures against the moral decay of clergy and people; in 1585 he founded a seminary in Bamberg for the training of priests; he also did much to improve the material welfare of the people
47- Neithart von Thungen (1591-1598) laboured with great success in behalf of the counter-Reformation; he provided for the education of the clergy, enlarged the ecclesiastical seminary, and re-established the Catholic religion in his territory in accordance with the then accepted principles of law
48- A less successful episcopate was that of John Philip von Gebsattel (1599-1609), during whose reign the pest desolated the diocese
49- John Gottfried von Aschhausen (1609-1622), who, after 1617, was also Bishop of Würzburg, took energetic measures against concubinage among the clergy. In 1612 he called in the Jesuits, to whom he gave the house and church of the Carmelites; he put the Jesuits in charge of the ecclesiastical seminary and made them the cathedral preachers. In this way the bishop insured the reform of his clergy and the spiritual renewal of Catholicism. There is one stain on his memory which also rests on that of his successor: the toleration and encouragement of trials for witchcraft.

Many misfortunes befell the diocese during the Thirty Years War; among those were heavy war imposts, spoliation, and devastation. In 1632 Bamberg was conquered by the Swedes, and in 1633 was obliged to recognize Barnard of Weimar as its ruler.

50- Bishop John George II Fuchs von Dornheim (1623-1633) died in Carinthia far away from his see
51- Franz von Hatzfeld (1633-1642) was not able to enter his diocese until 1635
52- Melchior Otto Voit of Salzburg (1642-1653) changed the gymnasium into a university in 1647; his successors,
53- Philip Valentine Voit von Reineck (1655-1672)
54- Philip von Dernbach (1672-1683)
55- Marquard Sebastian Schenk von Stauffenberg (1683-1693)

followed his example in encouraging the spiritual activity of the Jesuits and other orders, in the improvement of schools, and in reducing the indebtedness of the diocese. A time of great prosperity was the period of the two Counts von Schönborn:

56- Lothair Franz (1693-1729), and
57- Frederick Charles (1729-1746)

After 1695 the former of these two bishops, Lothair Franz, was elected Elector of Mainz; he built the prince-bishop's palace (now a royal residence), a large college for the Jesuits, as well as several castles, and was a great patron of art and learning; the latter, Frederick Charles, added faculties of law and medicine to the university and adorned the city with numerous public buildings. On account of his pulpit eloquence his contemporaries gave him the name of the German Fleury. The reigns of the next bishops,

58- John Philip Anthony von Frankenstein (1746-1753) and
59- Franz Conrad, Count von Stadion (1753-1757), were also peaceful.
60- During the administration of Adam Frederick, Count von Seinsehim (1757-79), the diocese suffered greatly from the Seven Years War; during its progress the Prussians ravaged and plundered the region, levied contributions on the inhabitants, and carried off the church treasures. When pestilence and famine followed the other miseries of war the bishop showed great liberality in providing for his starving subjects
61- Franz Ludwig von Erthal (1779-1795), who was at the same time Bishop of Würzburg, was another prelate who aimed to promote the welfare of the diocese; he issued wise laws, tried to equalize the burdens of taxation, founded charitable institutions (the general hospital at Bamberg among them), and raised the standard of the clergy. But although personally religious, in the political relations of the Church he yielded in a measure to the prevailing tendencies of the Aufklarung (illumination) movement of his day.
62- Christoph Franz von Buseckj (1745-1802) was the last Prince-Bishop of Bamberg. In 1796 he took refuge at Prague from the French invasion, and in 1799 at Saalfeld. He had only just returned, in 1802, when Bavaria seized his prince-bishopric; and in 1803 the delegates of the empire formally enacted the secularization of Bamberg, and allotted it to be a possession of the Elector of Bavaria. All the provostships and monasteries were then suppressed, the university was changed into the still extant lyceum, and the prince-bishop was pensioned.

Upon the death of von Buseck (1805) George Charles von Fechenbach, Bishop of Würzburg, administered the affairs of the diocese until 1808. After this the see remained vacant for ten years; the ecclesiastical government was carried on by a vicariate-general, consisting of a president and eight counsellors. The concordat agreed upon between Bavaria and Rome in 1817 brought in a new era. Bamberg was made an archbishopric with boundaries as given at the beginning of this article. The first archbishop, Count Joseph von Stubenberg, previously Prince-Bishop of Eichstatt, took possession of the archiepiscopal see of Bamberg in 1818 and administered both dioceses until his death in 1824. Bishop von Stubenberg deserves great credit for the manner in which he protected the property of the Catholic Church. He was followed by (1824-52) Joseph Maria, Freiherr von Fraunberg, who had been Bishop of Augsburg, (1842-58) Boniface Caspar von Urban, (1858-75) Michael von Deinlein, who founded a seminary for boys and encouraged Catholic associations and missions among the people, (1875-90) Frederick von Schreiber, and (1890-1904) Joseph von Schork, a noted pulpit orator. Archbishop von Schork promoted missions (Volksmissionen) among the people, as well as charitable and social organizations among clergy and laity. Frederick Philip von Abert (b. at Munnerstadt, 1 May, 1852) was appointed Archbishop, 30 January, 1905.

[edit] Ecclesiastical statistics

The Archdiocese of Bamberg is divided into the archiepiscopal commissariat of the city of Bamberg and 20 rural deaneries. The diocesan year-book for 1906 gives: 194 parishes and dependent stations; 35 curacies; 113 chaplaincies; 58 benefices; 583 churches and chapels; 406 secular clergy; 29 regular clergy; 788 Catholic parish schools; 23 Catholic district school inspectors; 202 local school inspectors. The cathedral chapter is composed of 1 provost, 6 deans, 10 canons, 1 honorary canon, and six curates. The secular priests have a clerical association (Faaedus Ottonianum) with 320 members and a home for invalid priests; the association has also a retiring fund (Emeritenfonds) of $92,500. There are 7 houses of male orders, with 90 members, namely: 4 Franciscan with 17 priests and 29 brothers; 1 of Calced Carmelites with 5 priests, 3 clerics, and 7 brothers; 1 of Conventual Minorites, with 5 priests, 5 brothers, and 3 novices; 1 of Brothers of Charity, with 2 priests, 11 brothers, and three novices. The archdiocese contains a large number of houses of the female orders and congregations: 17 houses, in 8 localities, of the English Ladies (Englische Fraulein) with 223 inmates; 13 houses of the Poor School-Sisters, with 1223 inmates; 3 houses of the Franciscan Sisters, with 11 inmates, from the mother-house of Maria-Stern at Augsburg; 8 houses of the Tertiary Sisters of St. Francis, from Mallersdorf, with 35 inmates; 8 houses of the Franciscan Sisters, from the convent of Dillingen with 43 inmates; 5 houses of Sisters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul with 55 inmates; 17 houses in 10 localities containing 107 inmates, of the Sisters of the Most Holy Saviour from the mother-house at Oberbronn, with 107 inmates; 12 houses, with 32 inmates, of the Daughters of the Holy Redeemer from the mother-house at Würzburg; 2 convents, with 11 inmates, of the Sister of Oberzell; making a total of 85 houses with 640 female religious. For the training of the clergy there are an archiepiscopal seminary for priests (50 students) and an archiepiscopal seminary for boys (75 pupils). The students of the seminary (Priesterseminar) are educated at the Royal Lyceum, which has philosophical and theological faculties and 9 clerical professors; the pupils of the seminary for boys' school (Knabenseminar) attend the two gymnasia of Bamberg in each of which an ecclesiastic acts as religious instructor (Religionslehrer). The clergy have also charge of the von Aufsess seminary and home for Catholic students. The Franciscans have at Bamberg a seminary for students at the gymnasia who wish to enter the order after completing their studies. Of the female congregations, the English Ladies conduct 3 Academies and boarding-schools for girls, and 7 primary girls' schools; the other congregations conduct common schools, housekeeping and industrial schools, and creches. The orders and congregations in the diocese have some 90 charitable institutions under their care, among these are: 15 alms-houses and infirmaries; 12 hospitals; 22 creches; 15 centres for obtaining visiting nurses; 1 insane asylum; 4 homes for unemployed servants; 5 poor-houses, etc. Among the Catholic societies in the diocese may be mentioned: 50 Associations for workingmen and Mechanics; 14 Journeymen's Associations (Gesellenvereine); 7 Apprentices' Societies; 1 Workingwomen's and 1 Shopgirls' Association; the Ludwig-Mission Association; the St. Boniface Association; the Christian Family Association; the Society of Christian Mothers; the Catholic Men's Society, the People's Union for Catholic Germany, etc.

[edit] Sights

Among other noteworthy churches of the city are the twelfth-century church of the former Benedictine Abbey of St. Michael and the upper parish church, a Gothic building dating from 1387. Among the finest churches of the diocese are those of the Fourteen Martyrs, Gossweinstein, and Mariaweiher — all places of pilgrimage; the Gothic church of Our Lady at Nuremberg, and the churches of the former abbeys of Banz and Ebrach.

[edit] Jewish encyclopedia

City in Upper Franconia, Bavaria. As early as the beginning of the eleventh century Jews had settled at Bamberg. In the second half of the twelfth century Benjamin of Tudela, at the end of his "Travels," mentions its large congregation, which included many scholars and rich men. In 1096 Emicho of Leiningen instigated a massacre among the Jews; in 1218 two Jews were martyred; and in 1298 the Jews suffered terribly at the hands of Rindfleisch and his bands, one hundred and thirty-five of them being murdered. They were persecuted so atrociously at the time of the Black Death, in 1349, that they set fire to their own houses and sought death in the flames. The prince-bishop then took possession of such of their houses as were left, and also of the synagogue. Bishop Anton protected them because a rich Jew of Bamberg lent him large sums of money. They were expelled in 1442, but returned in 1453.

In 1451 Johann von Capistrano, the "Scourge of the Hebrews," preached against the Jews in the cathedral of Bamberg. They were forced to listen to the mission sermons of a Dominican monk, and, as they steadfastly refused to be converted, they were once more expelled in 1478. Within twenty-five years, however, they had again returned to Bamberg. In the sixteenth century they were often threatened with expulsion. During the Thirty Years' war they, together with their fellow-citizens, suffered at the hands of the Swedes. Better days came with the second half of the seventeenth century. In 1683 they prevented an expulsion by sacrificing large sums of money. During a commercial crisis in 1699 the populace rose up against the Jews, and one Jew saved himself by throwing prunes from a gable-window down upon the mob. That event, the 29th of Nisan, called "Zwetschgen-Ta'anit" (Prune-Fast), is still commemorated by a fast and a Purim festivity. At that time many communities in the vicinity of Bamberg were plundered. Emperor Leopold ordered an investigation of the affair and had the leaders punished. In 1737 the number of Jews permitted to live at Bamberg was fixed at forty-eight, each of whom must possess 2,000 thalers, a sum that was increased in 1747 to 4,000. Not until 1813 was the Jews' matriculation ("Judenmatrikel") substituted for the letter of protection.

The first synagogue of the community became the "Marienkirche" after the persecution of 1349, and when it fell into decay in 1470 a new church was built on the site. The second synagogue escaped a similar fate after the expulsion of 1478, being bought by Jacob Kerpf, a Jew of Nuremberg. In 1561 the community rented a rear building for its third place of worship, which was changed into a synagogue in 1679. The fourth synagogue was erected on the same site in 1853. Bamberg at all times had a ghetto. The cemetery was outside of the Sandthor until 1478, having been enlarged in 1407. In the sixteenth century the Jews of Bamberg buried their dead in Zeckendorf, and after the middle of the eighteenth century in Walsdorf; but since 1851 they have had a cemetery of their own.

In harmony with the importance of the community the rabbinate was occupied by eminent men. Samuel of Bamberg, well known as halakist, exegete, and piyyuṭ expounder, lived there about 1220. Israel of Bamberg, author of Tosafot (about 1250), succeeded him. Rabbi Feyst is mentioned about 1403. More famous than any of these was David Sprinz (about 1445), who went later to Nuremberg. Moses Minz, the last great representative of Talmudic learning among the German rabbis of the Middle Ages, lived at Bamberg from 1469 to 1474. Rabbi Samuel Meseritz, author of the collection of formulas and documents "Naḥalat Shib'ah" (Amsterdam, 1667-68), was at Bamberg from 1661 to 1665. His successors were: Moses Fürth, 1665-67; Enoch Levi, 1674-78; Mordecai Lipschütz, 1678-85; Mendel Rothschild, 1686-1718; Moses Broda, 1718-33; Nathan Utiz, 1734-42; Joseph Breslau, 1743-52; Abraham Maler, 1752-57; Tewele Scheuer, 1759-67; Judah Katz, 1770-88; Löb Berlin, 1789-94; Uri Feist, 1797-1802; Joseph Gersfeld, 1802-14; Samson Wolf Rosenfeld, Joseph Kobak (b. 1864), and Dr. A. Eckstein (in 1901). The Jews in Bamberg numbered, in 1403, 37; in 1633, 10; in 1664, 10; in 1690, 24; in 1737, 60; in 1763, 69; in 1901, the community numbered 1,350 persons.

[edit] References

  • Bibliography: A. Eckstein, Gesch. der Juden in Ehemaligen Fürstbistum Bamberg, Bamberg, 1898. (Jewish Encyclopedia)

[edit] Castle Altenburg

The article says "Destroyed in 1553 by Albert, Margrave of Brandenburg". But List of rulers of Brandenburg and Prussia doesn't show any Albert around that time. The margrave of Brandenburg then would have been Joachim II, Elector of Brandenburg. Colonies Chris 20:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It is actually referring to Albert Alcibiades, Margrave of Brandenburg-Kulmbach. Olessi 03:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claudia Ciesla

Famous denizens: "Claudia Ciesla" removed not notable see german Articel Bamberg-Germany-Famous denizens 145.253.2.235 10:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lists

THere is absolutely no need to have both a list of famous and not famous people. Articles do not exist to make sure everyone ever born somewhere is listed. Only the most notable should be included. To that end I have combined the lists. Here are the remaining people cut. I suggest that unless they are extremely famous, they not be included and certainly people with red links should not be. Also, there is no need to obfuscate meaning with denizens, when residents is a perfectly serviceable and clear word.

pschemp | talk 23:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)