Talk:Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area

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Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area is part of WikiProject Maryland, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Maryland.
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Population has been added. Even though it is not recognized as an official metroplex , the current population of the entire norther virginia, DC, Maryland, Baltimore area is roughly 8 million.


Contents

[edit] Population

This article is missing one very important figure... The population! newkai 10:40, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Pennsylvania?

Should Southern Pennsylvania be added to the region? There are subvisions/developments going up in Adams County, York County, and Franklin County that are being billed as bedroom communities for Washington and/or Baltimore.[1] Carter 12:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Valid question, but I was under the impression that these new communities were being billed as bedroom communities for baltimore; not for washington. A four hour daily commute? yeesh.

[edit] Central city

Is "central city" a defined term? Why is Hagerstown one but not Frederick, which is larger? What does "acts as a central city" mean? Tuf-Kat 20:01, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

Tuf-Kat: Central City is defined here: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/cob/ma_metadata.html#cc I think the basic idea is that Frederick is within the Wash/Balt area, while Hagerstown is outside of it. My own interpretation on this: People residing some distance outside of Hagerstown may be likely to commute there, while people residing similar distances outside (or even within) Frederick may be more likely to work in DC or Baltimore than Frederick itself.

[edit] Does this area still exist?

According to the latest census OMB version ([2]), this Metropolitan Area no longer exists. Baltimore, Washington, and Hagerstown now each have their own Metropolitan Statistical Area. john k 14:52, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hey everyone, no longer exists? Anybody out there? john k 04:21, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Umm your wrong John, [3]. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 04:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, I am correct. Washington-Baltimore is a Combined Statistical Area. Which is different. It consists of several metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas, including the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria Metropolitan Statistical Area and the Baltimore-Towson Metropolitan Statistical Area. john k 04:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Which all put together would be the Greater Washington/Baltimore Metropolitial Area. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 04:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a Combined Statistical Area, at least officially. It doesn't make any sense to use old census definitions. We should use the new census definitions, which define the two as in separate metropolitan areas, but combine those metropolitan areas into a so-called "Combined Statistical Area." It is not as though the old definitions have some particular sort of logical sense to them that means we should use them forever - as a native of the region, I certainly always considered Baltimore to be a separate metropolitan area, and I still think it's absurd that Fredericksburg is supposedly in the same metro area as where I grew up. john k 04:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Separate articles could be created, but it the term Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area is still widely used. --tomf688(talk) 04:44, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Also, please note the image I just added; it adds/removes at least two counties from what is listed in the article. --tomf688(talk) 04:45, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

The term is widely used, but what does it mean? Does it mean the old Washington-Baltimore CMSA, or the current Washington-Baltimore CSA? Or something else entirely? I've suggested at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities creating a new wikiproject for US metropolitan areas, which are currently in a terrible state, so that we can perhaps hash this out. john k 04:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just as an example, Hagerstown, Maryland, was in the old Washington-Baltimore CMSA, but not the Washington-Baltimore CSA. Also, it should be noted that the latter specifically does not describe itself as a metropolitan area. john k 05:02, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why are we using the official government definitions? The "Washington-Baltimore CMSA" is (or was) well-defined, but the "Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area" is, like all metropolitan areas, ill-defined. There's no reason we should use the Census Agency's definitions, which are rather coarse (full counties as the finest subdivision?). --SPUI (talk) 01:01, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, SPUI. I also feel that much of the list should be removed as it is unnecessarily long and... who really reads it? Perhaps remove the cities, and leave the counties/states.--tomf688(talk) 01:12, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reality vs. Statistics

The government may define these counties as part of the metro area, but the relationship for a number of them are strained.

RESPONSE: I think the basis for including some of the outer counties that you're probably talking about is that there are a significant # of daily commuters from those places to Wash/Balt or their suburbs. Don't forget the long distances traversed by MARC and VRE riders!

What is this complete idiocy: "and the mainframe that contains the master list of all Internet E-mail addresses" huh? It's not a mainframe (it's a Unix server) and it contains the master DNS list, not email addresses!

[edit] Remove the "full list of cities"?

I feel this list makes the article deceptively longer than it really is and isn't necessary. It should either be moved to its own article (List of Cities in the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area) or simply deleted. --tomf688(talk) 01:54, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Status of King George County, VA

There seems to be some a contridiction of the status of King George County. The King George County page indicates that King George County is NOT a part of the Washington-Baltimore Metropolitan Area. Yet, according to the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area page, it is.

This also brings to light a local controversey regarding King George County and whether or not it is part of the Northern Neck of Virginia. Historically, King George County has been included as part of the Northern Neck. The Northern Neck Tourism Council website lists locations in King George County amongst its historical sites and museums, and the King George County Homepage labels the county as the "Gateway to the Historic Northern Neck". I was educated in Northumberland County, Virginia, and this is what we were taught during our segment on local history for 11th grade US History, that there are FIVE counties in the Northern Neck, including King George County.

However, until 11th grade, I had always grown up under the assumption that the Northern Neck consisted of only four counties: Northumberland, Lancaster, Westmoreland, and Richmond counties. Locals think of the Northern Neck more as a community with similar values and interests, rather than a geographical area. King George county is considered to be "suburban", part of the Washington DC urban sprawl and therefore doesn't share the same community interests as the rest of the Northern Neck.

This article from the Fredericksburg Free-Lance Star highlights both sides of the King George debate.

The inclusion of King George County as part of the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area stems from three facts: King George's proximity to Fredericksburg, its inclusion in the Washington DC media market, and the presence of the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren. However, the historical connections between King George County and the Northern Neck shouldn't be dismissed. It wouldn't be inappropriate to consider King George County as part of both, as Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area seems to be a statistical category, while the Northern Neck is a historical/geographical region.

I have also added this discussion to the pages on both King George County and the Northern Neck. --Goosedoggy 23:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page name

So, uh, why was this moved back? There is no specific, defined area called the "Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area," therefore it should not be capitalized, because it's not a proper noun - it's a general concept. If we're going to capitalize the specific name of the Census area, we're going to have to spell the whole thing out. See New York metropolitan area. FCYTravis 00:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Actually, proper nouns are the names of individual things, whether those things are official, unofficial, ambiguously defined, or whatever. That's probably why the page was moved back to the caps version.-Jeff 03:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Hmm, I guess it was moved again after being moved back, in that case I'd just like to say that the Baltimore-Wasington Metropolitan Area is an individual metropolitan area and region. Maryland Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland are individual regions, and are capatalized, so this should be as well. While "metropolitan area" may be a generic concept, "Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area" refers to a specific one and is therefore a proper noun. Will move to caps version.-Jeff (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
And here is a link to the definition of proper noun noun#Proper nouns and common nouns.-Jeff (talk) 14:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Differing maps

Why do the two maps on the page include different counties in the metro area? I.e. Washington Couty, MD is included in the second map but not in the first? What definition are we using and shouldn't the maps reflect this? --דוד ♣ D Monack 01:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Metropolitan area now defunct?

The page United States metropolitan area ranks the 25 largest in America. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria is seventh, and Baltimore-Towson is twentieth. It lists Washington as part of the "Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area (now defunct)." If it's true that Washington and Baltimore are no longer considered to form one metropolitan area, maybe that should be addressed on this page. Just letting you guys know.–Clpalmore

  • This has been discussed already, the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area is still the name of a multistate region, it's just not a single metropolitan area as defined by the census anymore.-Jeff 03:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • On a subjective note, I will say that I've seen a trend over the past 30 years away from consolidating the two metropolitan areas. It seemed to be popular in the past to prepare for a time in the future when the metropolitan areas would blend into one another and eventually be considered one. Yet, as the two metropolitan areas do now actually touch, no signifigant blending of their cultures and economies has occured, despite urban planners dreams of making them become one big happy metropolitan area. Washington and Baltimore seem more polarized now than they did 20 years ago. I wonder why. Different economies and different cultures made this impossible, perhaps? I think this is reflected somewhat in sport culture allegiances. Baltimore always refused to support the washington football team as a matter of principle. Washington had a general disinterest in supporting the Baltimore baseball team. Baltimore basketball and hockey fans refuse to root for the wizards and capitals, respectively. Of course, obvs., none of this is important; but I think it is somehow reflective of the larger issue addressed by both this article and the discussion thread.

[edit] Why is the article title not "Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia Metropolitan Area"?

The official name of the CSA is "Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia". Why not make that the page title, so as to conform with the actual name, then forward anyone who searches for either "Washington-Baltimore" or "Baltimore-Washington" to that?

The justification given earlier, that this “Baltimore-Washington” construct is an ill-defined animal different from the official CSA, doesn’t hold water considering the entire rest of the article concerns the CSA. If the writers feel “Baltimore-Washington” is truly different than the “Washington-Baltimore-NoVa” CSA, then the two constructs should have different articles with a clear explanation as to the difference.

Short of that, insisting on calling what everyone else in the country, including those in charge of actually coming up with official names, calls Washington-Baltimore, strikes me as silly provincialism on the part of somebody in Baltimore who’s trying to compensate for a sense of inferiority.

Because that's how it's commonly referred to locally. The same reason the San Francisco Bay Area article isn't titled "San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland" or Delaware Valley isn't titled "Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland". Actually running through the list of Combined Statistical Area articles not a one of them uses the CSA name for the name of the article. Kmusser 15:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It is not commonly referred to this way locally, except perhaps in Baltimore. I have lived here all my life and never heard anyone who wasn't from Baltimore put Baltimore first. But if people in Washington say Washington first and people in Baltimore say Baltimore first, then what reason is there for trumping both the official name and common sense by using the city most people in the world are less familiar with as the primary name?
Washington radio stations often put Baltimore first - did a quick Google seach - Baltimore-Washington gets 5,230,000 hits (2,080,000 if I screen out BWI and Wikipedia references), Washington-Baltimore gets 667,000. Kmusser 18:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Use common names. Most people call it the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area (or BW Metro Area for short) not Wasington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia CSA. Also, as for the order: BWI airport, the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, and the Baltimore-Washington Medical Center all seem to agree with the BW ordering. Not sure of any places that use Washington-Baltimore.-Jeff (talk) 01:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

this is too funny. I was born in washington and lived in the washington suburbs my entire life. the vernacular term, colloquially, had always been "baltimore-washington." the official name was changed to the Washington Baltimore combined statistical area sometime ago (15 years or so?), yet, the general term is still "baltimore-washington," and is used as such when spoken of outside the region. now, this may no longer be true inside the washington area, but the declarations of a baltimorean "sense of inferiority" is killing me. I love watching these two cities bite and claw at each other.

I'm in D.C., but everyone says Baltimore-Washington. Washington may be better known nationally & internationally but the fact is that Balto. simply has more people though the gap is narrowing. 641,943 vs. 582,049 in DC. —dm (talk) 06:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

It really makes no sense to have an article on this area and another on the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA. The latter article should be collapsed into the former article.Blueboy96 06:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

  • The two articles, the one on Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA, and the one on the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Areas, should most definately be seperate, as they are obviously about two completely different things. One is about the metropolitan area of Washington D.C., the other about is the broader issue of a combined statistical area of two metropolitan areas. A combined statistical area and a metropolitan statistical area are not the same thing, and as the Baltimore-Towson metropolitan statistical area is not in the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria metropolitan statistical area, why would the two articles be merged?

Now, if your argument was that there is no reason that there should be two seperate articles for the Baltimore-Washington area and the Washington-Baltimore Consolidated Statistical Area, you might have a good point; but the proposal to join the two articles pointed to the wrong articles... one on the Baltimore-Washington Area and the other on the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV "Metropolitan Statistical Area." These are two completely different things and the Washington MSA does not even include Baltimore or any of the 2.6 million people who actually live in the Baltimore-Towson Metropolitan Statistical Area.

I'd support the merge. The Washington MSA is part of the the Baltimore Washington Metro area and it's article doesn't offer any content that isn't already here, so until it does there isn't really any reason to keep separate articles. Kmusser 14:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I would also support a merge as long as it is made clear that the CSA contains two distinct major metropolitan areas. --Polaron | Talk 15:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Kmusser, i think that may be a stronger argument for an expansion for the article on the Washington MSA, or the creation of a page on the Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV Combined Statistical Area. As noted many times above, the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area is more of vague notion than an official entity (and has been implied that the Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV Combined Statistical Area no longer has official designation from the OFB. Of this, I am not sure... actually, I find it difficult to believe.) But merging that article about an official entity into this article about a vague notion, when they both actually have very different definitions, is problematic to say the least.
While the title is vague the content that is here is mostly about the official CSA which the MSA is a subset of and the section about Washington here is almost an exact duplicate of the Washington MSA article. I don't see the problem with including a government definition in a article about the general area, as long as it's clearly identified as such, which it is. This article isn't very long, I'd say just expand the Washington section here. Kmusser 00:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I found this page by looking for the Washington MSA, as distinct from the CSA, because I was rejected from a government commuter program by having a workplace outside the "Washington, DC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) as defined by the United States Office Of Management and Budget" (FYI, The mwcog.org Guaranteed Ride Home Program) This was the most convenient way for me to find that definition without wading through PDFs. I'd like to see it kept. (unregistered DC user) 72.75.56.129 00:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The two articles absolutely should not be merged, and I was surprised to find that this has been proposed. Irrespective of census definitions, the DC Metro area is completely distinct from that of Baltimore. Yes, the two interact all the time, but are separate politically, economically, and it could be argued, culturally. They do share a couple counties (Howard, most notably), but the same goes for Washington DC and Richmond --Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania County have commuters to both MSAs. In the Maryland Senatorial election, a key issue was whether Ben Cardin was in touch with the DC area of Maryland (he wasn't by the way). The most important division, by far, is that of the economies. I would not be surprised (yes, this is substance-less speculation) if the proposal to merge was initiated either by Baltimore-area residents or, more likely, by busybody Wikipedians from outside the region who are simply seeking to improve the articles by making them more efficient. But don't be confused -- there's a reason the Washington Post only prints local Thursday sections for Mongomery, Fairfax, Arlington/Alexandria, Prince George's, and other Virginian counties.
The proposal was made because currently the articles are almost identical, all that's in either article is basically the Census definition - there is little about politics, economics, or culture in either article. If you wanted to add information about the differences between the two metro areas then right here would be an excellent place to do so. Kmusser 16:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The articles are probably similar because one MSA contains the smaller Metro area, yet the DC area is the more prominent of the two (between Baltimore metro and DC metro). There would be nothing wrong if Baltimore and DC each were to have their own pages for their respective Metro areas, while preserving this page to exhibit the important ties of the two (i.e. the BW Parkway). Thomasmallen 17:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
That would be great if the Baltimore and DC metro pages actually had any content. As it is the Baltimore metro page doesn't exist and the DC metro page is just a copy of the DC section of this page. Kmusser 17:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
In that case, how about you, living in MD, create a Baltimore Metro Area page, and I, living in the DC area, modify the current Washington DC Metro page? And from there everyone could compare the two while analyzing the facts about the Baltimore-DC area and fix up that page as well. Thomasmallen 18:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
If I had the content to add readily available I would have done so long ago :-) Unfortunately that would take more research than I have time to do at the moment, I really don't know much about Baltimore despite only being an hour away. Don't let that stop you from expanding the Washington DC Metro page though. Kmusser 18:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
If someone else wants to take on creating a Baltimore Metro are page I've yanked out the Baltimore portions of this page and put them at User:Kmusser/Sandbox/Baltimore so that it could be copied and used as a base. Kmusser 18:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I've now made a few major changes: "Washington Metropolitan Area" is no longer a redirect to this article. It now is its own article, identical to the former "washington va-wv-arlington etc." which now redirects to it. I'll be spending some time to check for double redirects, but for the most part, I think we're doing OK. The reason for the name change is that the old name is not widely recognized and is markedly different from those of other major metropolitan areas, including: New York Metropolitan Area, Greater Los Angeles, Chicagoland, Deleware Valley, Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, South Florida metropolitan area, and Greater Houston, the only MSAs statistically larger by population that the DC area.Thomasmallen 15:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MD/VA

MY Opinion:

   I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states!

Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.

   If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern????

It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD.

   Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN.

I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall.

   Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern!

They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz


ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maryland"

[edit] Baltimore Metropolitan Area Article

Today (Jan. 17 07) I created the Baltimore Metropolitan Area page. I also re-linked the MSA-rank list. I'm sure there are numerous articles that mention the Baltimore area that should be linked to this new (and certainly unfinished) page.Thomasmallen 15:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion request

Can has square miles, plzkthx? 65.111.84.210 (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)