Talk:Balti wine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article was nominated for deletion on 29/6/2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Wine Portal

Balti wine is part of WikiProject Wine, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of wines, grapes, wine producers and wine growing regions. Please work to improve this article, or visit our project page where you can join the project and find other ways of helping.

Start

This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale.

Low

This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale within WikiProject Wine.

Assessment comments

This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

WikiProject Wine open tasks

Make visible or invisible by clicking Show or Hide, respectively.

[edit] Advertisement

I agree that this page looks like an ad. -Splitpeasoup 22:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Then I will propose an AfD for further discussion. -- Emana 20:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This page is very much of an advertisement for a particular brand of wine, BALTI WINE packaged to sell to Indian restaurants. It is claimed but there is no information about why the wines are deemed appropriate for Indian cuisine. I suggest delete or include all competitive products. There is already a section on wine and food matching which covbers this topic. Henrywilliams58 10:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this really Wine of a Wine-based beverage?

First of all, what is "Balti"? Yes, a quick search here on WP will tell you that it is meant for "hot curry dishes", but I think it should be mentioned in the article. Second, are the Argentinean grapes pressed and stored in England where Balti is bottled? Or is it Argentinean wine just being flown over and being mixed and bottled in England? Although the creator is Pakistani, Balti was made for Indian food. Would this wine be Pakistani, Indian, English, Argentinean? If in actuality the wine is not being pressed in England, then I'd say this is a "wine-based beverage" like any wine-cooler (like in the US) or wine sour (like in Japan). From the article referenced from the Manchester Evening News site, it seems like the wine is actually fully Argentinean and bottle in SA... There is so much mystery. -- Emana 21:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm still looking into info on the winemaking aspect but as far as I can tell the wine is Argentinian-using Argentinian grapes and winemaking style. The fact that Argentinian wine is being used as a complement to Indian cuisine is not that unusual. For instance, one of the best complements to Thai cuisine is the very German/Alsatian wine Gewürztraminer.Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 06:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This wine appears to be wine sourced in Argentian and simply branded as suitable for Indian food. There is no evidence that it does. It is simply a marketing exercise and this article appears to be an advertisement.Henrywilliams58 10:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It's as much an advertisement as the Big Mac article is-i.e. any article on any product can be considered an advertisment. As a member of the Wine Project my interest in the article lies in the historical significance of being the first wine created to specifically complement curry. As primary author of Wikipedia is a not a wine guide it would be a stretch to say that I have any advertising interest in this article. I really don't care how many bottles Balti sells. Even if they go bankrupt there is still cultural and culinary significance in what they first did. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 10:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Balti is very far from the "first wine created to specifically complement curry. ." General Bilimoria Wines, Spice Trail and Wine for Spice predate the marketing of Balti wines by several years and Pink Elephant Wines post dates it. And no evidence has been provided that Balti is even a wine created to specifically complement curry rather than simply a selection of wines branded and marketed as such. --Henrywilliams58 19:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

My recommendation would to be review the notability guidelines of WP:CORP and if what you say about those companies is true (And you have reliable independent 3rd party sources- like the Manchester Evening News) then create an article for those companies. In wikipedia it is all about sources and WP:V. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 19:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Balti (food) is a form of Indian cooking whose name derives from a type of cooking pot. Balti wine, like the food, is an invention of northern English origin. Like the food, you can order Balti wines in various "chili strengths" according to taste. I can see several ways in which this wine is quite original, as well as notable from a WP:F&D perspective, which is why I voted "keep" at the AfD. As I think I noted then, there is nothing unusual, or "non-wine", about sourcing grapes form one part of the world, pressing them in another, bottling them in a third and blending a load of other wines together with it in yet one more country to sell perfectly legitimate fine wine under whatever label best fits the target market, as this article attests. It might not be totally unique nor DOC, but it's still wine, and its article is not a lot less legitimate than Cobra Beer. It's certainly a lot less WP:POV, in fact looks too brief, as if all adjectives have been salted away in a flurry of WP:CORP panic. Give it a break. mikaul^talk 00:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't actually call it unique. Around 1999-2000 there was a lot of (£5.99/$10) multi-estate wines from Australia and Chile marketed at a non wine-conscious market with gimicky names like "Old Bastard" (believe me its true). Ashraf is quite well known in Manchester, he opened some of the original Video rental shops in the area and had a small chain of liqor stores. I think the collaboration with Manchester University is just a marketing gimmic. Having said that the Manchester Evening News which carries a story about Balti wine every few months sells more copies than some national newspapers. It has notability, but I think it will go the way of the original "alco-pops" - "Two Dogs". Just a sad memory. Mike33 - t@lk 03:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notes on Competitor section

Partially cross posted from User talk:Henrywilliams58 I have no problem with mention of competitors but in order to comply with Wikipedia guidelines there needs to be Reliable independent 3rd party sources that comment on the nature of the competition to Balti. Balti or the other companies' own website is not an independent 3rd party. On the contrary it is a self reference. There also needs to be more encyclopedic relevance then just Company A is a competitor of Company B. That is just spam advertisement. Rather you need to show "How has the competition affected the history of the company?" (or more interesting-How has it affected the wine world?). Again, there is room for compromise but we must act according to Wikipedia guidelines. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 19:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

....................

This article appears on the basis that Balti Wines has done something innovative. They have obviously good marketing and excellent. But Balti Wines superb PR skills must be put in the context of the pre and post Balti market.

1> Balti Wines is very far from the first such wine targeted at the curry market as is claimed here. As it happens General Bilimoria wines produced by Cobra Beer in 1999 five years before Balti and Spice Trail by Myliko Wines also predates it by several years. Wine for Spice predates Balti Wines by about a year and Pink Elephant was launched in January 2007.

So the article on its own without referenes to competitors or as to why or if it has captured a large or larger slice of the market is miseading.

[1] "In 1999 (Lord) Karan (Bilimoria) launched the General Bilimoria Wine brand with wines produced in France, which is now the house wine of hundreds of restaurants, including being listed in top Michelin-starred restaurants. A range of South African wines were added to the General Bilimoria portfolio in 2002, and a Spanish range has been added in 2004."

[2] July 01, 2000

The only source on Balti has been provided in the form of one UK regional newspaper article and the company's own sources. This needs to be balanced by several articles wich I have sourced on the marketplace. In fact I have provided a more authoritative source on Balti itself which refrenced some of the the other companies demonstrating independence.

2> Are Balti Wines specially developed for this market? Please provide evidence as to why they are capturing a share of the market.

3> Please show how Balti Wines were an improvement or more appropriate than the previous wines branded or perhaps indeed specially created for this market.

A speedy simple google of

wine curry

will unearth several independent articles I have attempted to source. The sort of evidence sought. Please read the sourced independent articles and revert.

No doubt more such independent articles can be sourced.

==External Articles==

"Fancy a beer and a balti? Drinks firms hope you'll make it a merlot and a madras" The Guardian June 11, 2007

"I like curries, but not beer. Can you suggest something else alcoholic to drink, perhaps a wine" The Guardian October 22, 2005

"Sparkling wine and spicy snacks" Matching Food and Wine May 8, 2007

"The quest to find a wine match for curries" Wine Anorak

"Can any wine survive a Vindaloo?"Italic text Matching Food and Wine Mar 20, 2007

--Henrywilliams58 19:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If such a section is deemed to be necessary, do so in the See Also section:

==See also==

Similar brands are:

list (with the brand name linked to the producer's main website if deemed appropriate

Otherwise, it is not important to the article who the other COmpetitiors are unless there is some importance as to the relatioship between these competitors (e.g. Coca Cola vs. Pepsi, Aquafina v. Dasani, since Dasani was a response by the COca COla Corp to enter the water market after Pepsi did.) Thus, if such a relationship exists between competitors of Balti wine it should be added. In other words, Balti Wine Corp has actively geared advertisement, products, comments, etc. relating to their competitors. It should also be noted, that competitors are rarely noted on other producer's pages unless they are important (X was the first to produce Y, X was an imp influence on Z).--Charleenmerced ^Talk 19:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)