Talk:Balearic Islands

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Contents 1 Dialect 2 Spanish government 3 Ballistics 4 "PP" link 5 Why Catalan-Aragonese invasion 6 Adding UNREF, CLEAN, and Stubs 18 April 2006 7 Six greek variants of name in opening section? 8 Geography, Politics and Culture 9 Name 10 Copyedit 11 The Catalan-speaking territories Table 12 The Catalan-speaking territories Table, part 2 13 Vandalism by User:Toniher 14 Move to Baleares? 15 "Mallorquí", "Menorquí", "Ibicenc" namings... Should they be clasified as MIA? 16 Name of autonomous community 17 Illes Balears, what are they? 18 About to be reported 19 Dispute resolution 20 Can we have something about the islands?

[edit] Dialect

i've been curious as to whether or not the balearic islands have their own dialect or dialects of spanish, but i haven't even been able to find any internet articles on this subject.Gringo300 18:07, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The actual language of Balears is Catalan, used with Balearic variants. If you follow the links, you will see how there are important differences between the islands. In fact, there are also a lot of different variants between zones in Mallorca, (that should be added in Balearic article, (to my TODO list)) even between towns separated only 4km! Anyway, all catalan speakers in Balears understand perfectly each other, as well as most catalan speakers from outside Balears.

Although Spanish is not the authochtonous language of Balears, it's used by a significant part of the population, mainly immigrants from other zones of Spain (which represent a large portion of Balears population, though). So, there's not an authochtonous spanish dialect.

John C PI 19:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

While Spanish (Castilian) is not the native tongue of the Balearic Islands, (Catalan is), all Balears actually speak it, some with a strong Catalan accent. But this does not constitute a dialect.

Tantris 18:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish government

Can someone explain me why does the Spanish government use Illes Balears (Catalan name) instead of Islas Baleares when it does not use other official names of autonomous communities in languages different from Spanish (like Catalunya or Euskadi)? User:Marco Neves

But it does use Catalunya (and Girona, Lleida, etc). Catalunya and Illes Balears are the official names and their respective Autonomous Governments have exclusive rights to set official place names on their territories as well, and the official place names are always the Catalan ones (except in Val d'Aran where the only official names are the Aranese ones).

Things are a bit more complicated for Euskadi and Valencia: where a place has different forms for Spanish vs Basque or Catalan, both forms are considered official. E.g. Vitoria/Gasteiz or Jijona/Xixona.

Don't know for sure about other Communities were the same question might aply:

• Galicia (Spanish vs Galician)
• Asturias (Spanish vs Asturian)
• part of Navarre (Spanish vs Basque)
• parts of Aragon (Spanish vs Aragonese or Catalan)

Hi! Thanks for the remarks. I mostly agree with you. However, please note this facts. The official Spanish version of the Autonomy Statute of Catalonia is "Estatuto de Autonomia de Cataluña" and not "Catalunya". In Balears case, it is "Estatuto de Autonomia de las Illes Balears" and not "Islas Baleares". You can see this in any official compilation of Spanish autonomy statutes. In fact, Spanish government, in offical documents in Spanish, uses the form "Cataluña" and, for Balears, "Illes Balears". Why this inconsistency?

I know that, in Catalonia, the Catalan names are the only one official and so I've included an explanation of that fact in Barcelona article. But Spanish Government uses the Spanish translations (which makes some sense, since the Spanish government also uses Spanish versions of foreign names, like Londres, Oporto, etc.). My question is this: why Illes Balears in Spanish? Thanks! User:Marco Neves (undated)

The use of only one of the oficial language for the oficial name of autonomous communities and provincies is a demand from pro-independence parties that are against the use of Spanish in their territories. Cpt.Miller 10:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The citation link in the article for the claim that "The Catalan name Illes Balears is used by the Spanish government" is http://www.caib.es/roottxt/altreswebs/les_illes.es.jsp, but that site appears to be from the government of the Balearic Islands, not of Spain, so I don't see how it can demonstrate what is claimed. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ballistics

I read, when I was a kid, that the term ballistics is derived from the ancient pronounciation of the balearic isles -- that the warriors from there were known for the ability to use a sling as a weapon. But I won't add this either entry until I can document it elsewhere.

According to ballistics, the term seems to be from Greek ballein, "to throw." - Montréalais 06:00, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "PP" link

I just changed the link "PP", that addressed to "Partit_Popular" to "Partido_Popular". That article already exists, and it has no sense to have different names for that party because of its central organization

[edit] Why Catalan-Aragonese invasion

I think this is not correct, the Islands were invaded by the crown of aragon. Not by a unexisting catalan state. If anyone is kind enough to correct this to aragonese invasion, it will be much apreciated.

Mmmh...there was a catalan state, under the rule of the king of aragon, who actually lived in barcelona. Catalonia had their own laws and court. Aragon, Valencia and Mallorca where kingdoms, catalonia wasn't, but it had the same institutions than the others.

On the other hand, the conquest of mallorca was a catalan conquest, it came under the rule of the catalan nobility. This is different to what happened in valencia, which was conquered by the catalans and by the aragonese. Triticumman

[edit] Adding UNREF, CLEAN, and Stubs 18 April 2006

re: sentence: The Catalan name Illes Balears is used by the Spanish government [1]. This is sole 'referecenced footnote in the whole article and the link gives this error message:
"HTTP Status 404 - /roottxt/altreswebs/les_illes.es.jsp

type Status report

message /roottxt/altreswebs/les_illes.es.jsp

description: The requested resource (/roottxt/altreswebs/les_illes.es.jsp) is not available."

Thus the following UNREF template:

1. I conjecture this error message may mean an English language version is not available, but I have no way of knowing as an ignorant American with only English.
2. There is much that can be added to the history of this island. The British/French/Spanish reconquests, in particular ought to be sketched out. I've run across references to them in Naval Period fiction by two authors, so the Napoleonic wars are a good bet for some period information.
3. There is so little text that the tables overshadowed and dominated the article, pushing the other images down off the bottom and hogging the right side, for a very unbalanced ugly looking article. The picture and map were both about three screens down well below any text. UGLY!!!
   1. Since MOS is just a guideline, NOT A POLICY, I'd advise leaving it alone as is until the text expansion covers at least four full screens of viewing.
   2. Adjusted the template to the left side and that better balances the even longer table on the right side. Added a section header to ease navigation and pull the reader down to that section, which includes other horizontally laid out navigation aids.
   3. This is both better looking, and self-consistent.
4. Little mention of industry and business, save one anemic reference to tourism. I got an email from a US Marine today visiting the Island of Minorca, so there may be a NATO military base there.
5. I'm going to see if he can send some digital pics, and will seek clarification of how he came to be there.
6. Asserting the CLEAN, UNREF, COPYEDIT Templates to attempt to draw some expansion help. My plate is full. There has got to be a lot more that could be said about such storied islands!
7. If you have no inclination to research, expand, and add, please leave the templates alone for others to respond to.

Best wishes, all! FrankB 04:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Six greek variants of name in opening section?

Do we really need six greek variants of the name Beleares in the opening section? I strongly suggest a separate paragraph with alternative spellings instead. MikeZ 11:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur, especially because they are mostly minor spelling variants in a language that had somewhat loose orthography. - Jmabel | Talk 22:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geography, Politics and Culture

Catalan countries?? While it is true that Cataluña refers to us this way, this cannot be taken as a worldwide name for us, since nobody BUT the Catalans calls us that.

[User: Daniela Huguet] 17:32, 04 September 2006 [GMT +2]

That's not true..I come from mallorca and I use this expression to refer to those territories where the catalan language is spoken. Triticumman

[edit] Name

Unless I am very mistaken, the current Spanish central government uses "Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears", not "Comunidad Autónoma de las Islas Baleares". They are pretty consistent these days about using Catalan-language place names in Catalan-speaking regions. It is certainly worth mentioning the name Islas Baleares, because there are plenty of native Spanish-speakers there, including many who are not also native Catalan-speakers. In any event, the accusation that changing to "Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears" constitutes vandalism is way out of line.

I'm aware that this has come up before, and it could use a solid citation either way. - Jmabel | Talk 00:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

I have taken the liberty of copyediting the article. I have removed the following from the Ancient history section, as I couldn't see what it added to the text: (διὰ τὸ γυμνοὺς καὶ ἀχλαίνους, ἐκεῖ ἐχενεχθῆναι).

I also note that hardly anything in this article is sourced, probably because so much of it is liften straight from the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography by William Smith, which was written in 1857. Surely, more recent information is available. -- User talk:DetCoot 11:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Catalan-speaking territories Table

This table, which includes the following subdivisions: (History of Catalonia · Counts of Barcelona · Treaty of the Pyrenees · Catalan constitutions · Generalitat de Catalunya · Generalitat Valenciana · Consell General de les Valls (Andorra) · Politics of Catalonia · Catalan nationalism) among others, has nothing to do in this autonomous community wikipage. For this reason, I am erasing it.

For the catalan speaking explanation and link to the govern of Baleares inside the table, I believe it is already correctly explained in the normal text Maurice27 20:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Reverting massive vandalism from Maurice27. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Northern_Catalonia#New_Edition Toniher 23:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't leave it there... Explain to everybody my "vandalism"... Please, explain what are those links doing in the Balearic Islands page. The link you're giving does not explain anything.

Maybe you're the one vandalizing... Maurice27 16:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Catalan-speaking territories Table, part 2

What has to do a completely pro-catalan biased table in this page? Ok let's see it:

The Catalan-speaking world Language Grammar Phonology and orthography Institut d'Estudis Catalans Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua History History of Catalonia · Counts of Barcelona Crown of Aragon · Military history of Catalonia Catalan constitutions · Furs of Valencia Treaty of the Pyrenees · Nueva Planta decrees Geography Països Catalans Catalonia · Valencia · Balearic Islands Northern Catalonia · Franja de Ponent Andorra · L'Alguer · Carxe Government and Politics Generalitat de Catalunya Generalitat Valenciana Govern de les Illes Balears Consell General de les Valls (Andorra) Politics of Catalonia Catalan nationalism Traditions Castells · Correfoc · Falles · Sardana ·  Moros i cristians · Caganer · Tió de Nadal Botifarra · Barça · Paella · Rumba Myths and legends Arts Catalan literature · Antoni Gaudí · Modernisme La Renaixença · Noucentisme Salvador Dalí · Joan Miró · Antoni Tàpies This box: view • talk • edit

It is described as a template of the territories where Catalan is spoken. Ok, I could accept that... If only the "language section", and not the others, was included. But, then, we have:

1. "History" section:, one of my favourites, where we can see links to History of Catalonia, Counts of Barcelona, Treaty of the Pyrenees, Catalan constitutions (All of them REAAAALLY connected in ALL ways to the Balearic Islands) and Crown of Aragon (Thank God, at least one with ties with the Balearic Islands).
2. Next Section, "Geography". Here we can find some WORLWIDE KNOWN Balear territories such as Catalonia, Land of Valencia,Northern Catalonia, Franja de Ponent, Andorra (My GOD, this should be studied by the UN, being Andorra an independent state, it becomes Balear!!!), L'Alguer and Carxe. Some of these are even using improper catalan names instead of the official ones, (but of course, I am an "anti-catalan"...).
3. Next section, "Government and Politics". Here we can find some ABSOLUTLY related to the Balears links , such as Generalitat de Catalunya, Generalitat Valenciana, Consell General de les Valls (Andorra), the funny Politics of Catalonia and the hillarious Catalan nationalism
4. Last two sections, "Traditions". We have links to DEEP IN THE HEART balear traditions such as Castells, Sardana, Caganer or Tió de Nadal (ALL OF THEM BEING -->UNIQUE<-- to Catalonia. We can also look for some fantastic balear artists links, such as Salvador Dalí, Joan Miró and Antoni Tàpies all of them being born in....... Gentlemen, I let you guess......... Right!!! Born in Catalonia!! Not a single balear artist is mentioned.

I hope these proofs the completely biased content of this table, and wish it to be ERASED from all non-catalan wikipages.

Maurice27 21:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to add more Balearic-related content to the template. But it does belong here. - Jmabel | Talk 19:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism by User:Toniher

User:Toniher is constantly reverting my contrubutions and accusing me of Vandalism... Maybe this morning the the Balearic Islands have suddenly become part of Catalonia and I'm unaware of that fact. Meanwhile IT IS STILL AN AUTONOMOUS COMMUNITY OF SPAIN and this article should say it so. Nobody is going to include a template with the "comarques of Catalonia" or a table with "History of Catalonia, Catalan constitutions, Generalitat de Catalunya" facts in a non-catalonian wikipage.

I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my own mother's country!!! Who do you think you are? "I won't tolerate this. I won't tolerate that". You have no right to impose your will on anybody. Wikipedia is about balance, an alien concept to some people.

This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 00:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Nor is it an anti-Catalan political pamphlet. - Jmabel | Talk 19:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia should present both sides of the story as people have the right to say what they wish. Spain is supposedly a democratic country after all.

[edit] Move to Baleares?

Isn't "Baleares" a far better title than Balearic Islands? --escondites 17:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

No. Really doesn't exist in English. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree the current title is the traditional English referent. --Bejnar 01:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Mallorquí", "Menorquí", "Ibicenc" namings... Should they be clasified as MIA?

Well? Any clue? --Maurice27 17:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of autonomous community

When did the name of the autonomous community change to "Illes Balears"? The current reference is wrong, the original (1983) name of the autonomous community was "Islas Baleares" [2]. The name of the province was changed in 1997 [3] "in concordance with the name of the autonomous community", but when did the name of the autonomous community change? Physchim62 (talk) 02:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that at the same time. Before that law the province was called "Palma de Mallorca" and since then it is Illes Balears. Mono provincial autonomies, such as Balearic Islands, Cantabria, Asturias, La rioja... Were formerly Palma de Mallorca, Santander, Oviedo, Logroño... --Maurice27 07:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The province was established (Real Decreto de 30 de noviembre de 1833) as Provincia de las Islas Baleares, although Provincia de Baleares has also been commonly used and it is numbered that way by INE/Correos (number 07). The preamble of the Ley 13/1997 states:

El topónimo Illes Balears, de acuerdo con la Constitución Española y el Estatuto de Autonomía para las Islas Baleares, tiene validez oficial cuando designa la Comunidad Autónoma que cuenta como base territorial el archipiélago balear. En cambio, el mismo topónimo Illes Balears no está oficialmente admitido para designar la provincia con la misma base territorial que la Comunidad Autónoma.

[...]

Para hacer coincidir la denominación oficial de la Comunidad Autónoma y la de la provincia, [...]

while its single article states

La actual provincia de Baleares se denominará oficialmente Illes Balears, de acuerdo con su tradición cultural e histórica, y en concordancia con la denominación de la Comunidad Autónoma.

This is what makes me think that the name of the AC had changed earlier, though I can find no legislative evidence of it. Physchim62 (talk) 07:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illes Balears, what are they?

Everybody here is ok about (in spanish or catalan, both languages under the same law) to use the catalan name of Illes Balears. That said, just to keep the Illes part is not correct. The full, official name, must have the "Autonomous community of"... Just like France is Republique de France, Spain is Kingdom of Spain, or Aquitaine is Region d'Aquitaine, or Calabria is Regione Calabria. --Maurice27 14:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. The official denomination of a country/region/state/nation/autonomous community does not necessarily include anything else unless specified by law; for example Ireland and Canada, whose official name are: Ireland and Canada, despite being republics. Still other names might be surprising: Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Republic of California or United Mexican States. (Note, also that France is République Française, not République de France).

In any case, the Statue of Autonomy of the Balearic Islands clearly states in Títol 1, Article 1.2: "la denominació de la comunitat autònoma és Illes Balears". Moreover, in the Spanish version of the Statute, the official name is still in Catalan and not in Spanish: "la denominación de la comunidad autónoma es Illes Balears". [4] Therefore, despite what other users say, Islas Baleares is not official, but merely a translation. Also, despite what other users say, the "comunitat autónoma" is not part of the name (unlike Valencia and Madrid whose names are Comunidad de Madrid and Comunitat Valenciana respectively). In light of the above. I revert Maurice27 edits. --the Dúnadan 16:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, you are wrong! Just take a look at these examples. They are taken directly from the BOIB (Boletin oficial Illes Balears)

• [[5]] Just take a look at the very first line. You will see the use by the very same Govern de les Illes Balears of the name.
• [[6]] Want to see how spanish can be used following the law which says Illes Balears have to be used?

Now, let us improve the article without having to be reverted each time, most of us are not here just to "tocarte els collons" but rather because we want to improve wikipedia. Accept that you were wrong:

• The correct name is the long form: Comunitat Autònoma de les Illes Balears.
• Spanish may very well be used (if keeping the catalan Illes Balears): Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears

P.S. The correct name for France is Republique Française... that was my mistake translating to english. --Maurice27 20:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Two things:

• The ultimate law within the autonomous community is the Statute of Autonomy. As such, the only version of the name with statutory value is "Illes Balears". The Boletín Oficial, while being a governmental publication, does not have statutory value.
• Watch your language (i.e. collons). I am here to improve Wikipedia based on what the ultimate statutory law says. You might revert, if you wish, but that would be detrimental to the project. Your unwillingness to cooperate or reach a consensus is palpable in your language (i.e. "accept you were wrong").

--the Dúnadan 20:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Did you notice that the links that you provided say: Govern de les Illes Balears and not Govern de la Comunitat Autònoma de les Illes Balears and that all throughout the text the name Illes Balears is used by itself (i.e. comunitat autònoma, when used is not capitalized, that is, is not part of the name) except on the title of the document which, by the way says Comunitat Autònoma Illes Balears, without the preposition de? --the Dúnadan 20:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S.2 Beware, you have already reverted three times today (WP:3RR). --the Dúnadan 20:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About to be reported

Well, if you don't want to accept you are wrong, that is not my problem. Not a single governmental publication will use wrong names. In both examples given, I have proved the correct use of the long form "Comunitat Autònoma Illes Balears" (in Titol II, you will also see Comunitat Autònoma de les Illes Balears) and the spanish long form "Comunidad Autónoma Illes Balears" (and also in Titol II, Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears). Your last explanations are just becoming useless and not contributing with anything interesting. So, Being myself the first to add today, it is not me, but you the one reverting. So, If after proving you the facts, you keep reverting, you will be reported for allegedly violating WP:3RR rule and you will also be reported for vandalism WP:VAN. I will also post this on your talk page to make sure you read it. --Maurice27 21:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I will also make Casaforra notice, that if reverting again a proven fact after reading the talk page he will also be reported for vandalism WP:VAN. I am respecting statuary law in all the edits I am doing in the article (Illes Balears in Catalan is always present). I'm forced to make a fourth change because of continuous revertings. As this is the first time Casaforra does it today, I will wait next revert before reporting it. I will also post this on Casaforra's talk page to make sure he reads it. --Maurice27 21:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, thx a lot for making me laugh today!  :DDD --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome! --Maurice27 23:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute resolution

Maurice27 (talk · contribs): I am very tempted to give you a 24 hour block for your role in this edit war -- breaking the 3RR when I see from your user page that you have been blocked for such an offence before.

I have protected the page from further edits, and will revert it to the state it was in before this edit war occured (the "stable" version) until such a time as a concensus for change is reached. I have also listed this on requests for comment in order to bring other experts into the discussion. Joe D (t) 23:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Steinsky, I'm pretty in agreement with you protection of the article, but your last change "Reverting to the last stable version of the page until concensus for change is reached" is not really correct. If you take a look, the naming edits war began only since April 9 (see [[7]]). Before that, and I'm talking for years, the names were the ones I have edited because of reversions (see all the edits previous to "13:15, 8 April 2007 Vuong Ngan Ha" [[8]]. The names in catalan and spanish have been in this article since "edited by Montrealais (Talk | contribs) at 08:32, 19 August 2003" [[9]].

I kindly ask you to undo your last edit for this reason. Thank you.

I have explained each and every time the reason for my 4 edits. All of them explained and proved in the talk page. I have been forced to make those 4 edits. And even proving them, others user have reverted anyway. If you are tempted to give me a 24 hour block, please block also the other users for vandalism. --Maurice27 23:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• It seems to me in scanning the above comments that the problem is between the name of the place and the name of the government of the place. I don't see what is gained by using the word official to refer to the place. It does have some utility when referring to the government of a place. I would suggest that the name of the government, Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears (Autonomous Community of the Balearic Islands) be used in the description of the government. That the infobox just refer to the place and not the government. Further, I suggest omitting the word official from the language parenthetical of the first sentence, as it is inapposite when referring to a place, except in French under French law. The article Rees, Earl L. (1996) "Spain's Linguistic Normalization Laws: The Catalan Controversy" Hispania 79(2): pp. 313-321, deals with the issue. Spanish law was clear, at least to Spain's Supreme Court, that a translation into Spanish or Catalan is equally official. I notice that the current article does not have a section on the government of the islands. This is a severe omission, especially as the form is unique within Spain, although in some ways comparable to that of the Canary Islands. Can we have some consensus somewhere? --Bejnar 02:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Bejnar, thank you for your mediation, and I do hope we can reach a consensus somewhere. However, I think you need to define what you mean by "place" vis-à-vis "government". I think the concept is a little bit blurred. For example, is Mexico a "place" or a "government"? If it is the first, why does it have an official name "United Mexican States"? Should the article talk about the "place" or about the "entity"? Or are they both the same thing, which have a form of government? I will organize my comment in bullets:

• Autonomous community is not the name of a "government" but of a second level administrative division within Spain, just as "state" is the second level administrative division of Mexico, "province" in Canada, "départment" in France or "región" in Chile. In other words, it is the type of entity we are talking about. This article is not about the islands (a physical place), but about an entity which in Spain is known as an "autonomous community". In the same way Florida refers to the entity called "state" and not to the peninsula.
• Autonomous communities have regulatory laws called "Statutes of Autonomy" (just as the regulatory laws of the constituent states of the US are called constitutions). This is the supreme law of the entity (of course regulated by the supreme law of the State of Spain, the constitution). Just as constitutions usually define the official name of the place, this law clearly states (second article) that this entity is an autonomous community whose official name is simply Illes Balears in both Spanish and Catalan.[10]. The constitution of Mexico clearly states that the name of the entity and place (country) is the United Mexican States. As such, that is the name with which the lead section of the article starts and the name of the place in the infobox.
• While the Spanish law of bilingualism of toponyms has usually been applied in reference to cities (Lleida - Lérida), it has rarely been discussed in relation to the names of autonomous communities. This is not the place to say that the Statute of Autonomy of Valencia or the Balearic Islands are inferior to the law of bilingualism or if the law is superior to them and therefore the statutes of autonomy are unconstitutional by not translating the name of the autonomous community into Spanish (thus making it equally valid). But it is verifiable, that the supreme law of the autonomous community does not translate the name to Spanish. That is why, although the name in Spanish is widely used, it is not official. Only the catalan name is. (Note, for example that in Spanish the institutions are called: Parlamento de les Illes Balears, Gobierno de les Illes Balears, and even Boletín Oficial de les Illes Balears, but most importantly, Comunidad Autónoma de les Illes Balears).
• Unlike Valencia and Catalonia, where the government is called "Generalitat", the government in the Balearic Islands does not have a name, but is simply known as the sistema institucional autonòmic (thirty-ninth article of the Statute of Autonomy), of which the Govern de les Illes Balears (following the convention of parliamentary democracies) refers exclusively to the executive branch (what in presidentialism is called the "administration").
• In lack of a name to refer to the institution of government ("Generalitat"), I doubt the name of the government is "Comunitat Autònoma de les Illes Balears" If you notice the links that Maurice27 provided (though he might have missed my point), all throughout the document comunidad autonóma is never capitalized. Let me user Maurice27 example (which he conveniently, or inadvertently edited): Titol II says: Cossos i escales de l’Administració de la comunitat autònoma de les Illes Balears.[11]. As you can see, the words comunitat autónoma are not capitalized at all in the document. Again, to me, this refers to the name of the second-level administrative division and not to the name of the institution of government. Texas is a state, sure, but its official name is Texas [12]. Moreover, the fact that the words are not capitalized, and following the Spanish/Catalan (and I would say English) convention regarding nombres propios, shows that "comunidad autónoma" is not part of the official name of [neither] the place [nor the government, if it was the case]. (Note: On the Statute of Autonomy, the words "Comunidad Autónoma" are always capitalized when standing alone, that is a "Comunidad Autónoma", as an entity, is considered a nombre propio, whether attached to the official name or mentioned in a sentence in reference to any autonomous community of Spain).

If we define our terms correctly, then I guess we can choose which names should appear (and in what language) in the lead section and in the infobox, consensually.

--the Dúnadan 03:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

(1)I would have thought that the difference between a place (dirt, water, sky) and a human institution like a government (an abstract) would be patently obvious and not blurry. Unfortunately, that seems not to be the case. The names that we use in English for that difference, may have aspects of synonymity, but are not synonymous. When we say Mexico we are not usually talking about the government, but about the land, people, etc. that are inside the boundaries of a particular country, or that exist as enclaves in another culture, as in the phrase Little Mexico. When we say the Estados Unidos Mexicanos we are definitely talking about a human institution. When we say "second-level administrative division" we are talking about the human institution of government. When we say Isla San Pablo we intend a place, although we don't know whether it is the one in Panama or Peru, or elsewhere, without more information.

(2)You are correct that definitions can be misused. But I am not asking for definitions that are other than those usually acknowledged in English.

(3)The object is to avoid conflict, not to engender it. By leaving off the word official in the first line, little is lost, and much is gained. What is lost is the debate that you mention as "This is not the place to say that the Statute of Autonomy of Valencia or the Balearic Islands are inferior to the law of bilingualism or if the law is superior to them and therefore the statutes of autonomy are unconstitutional by not translating the name of the autonomous community into Spanish (thus making it equally valid).", what is gained is focus on the conveying to the reader information that is solid.

(4)Balearic Islands, just in English, in the infobox is neutral as to the issues you present, and doesn't indicate in any way what government is currently administering the islands. If there is a need to discuss the conflict, it can be done in a short section devoted directly to that purpose.

--Bejnar 17:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• I still disagree with which term refers to a place and which term refers to a human institution, and the way you define government. When we use the phrase "Germany invaded Austria", arguably, the first is the institution whereas the second is the place. Yet, by using your logic, why didn't we use the official name of the institution to refer to the first (e.g. Federal Republic of Germany) to clearly distinguish it from the place? Geographical places are definite concepts that may or may not have an official name: lakes, islands, reefs, etc. In contrast, geopolitical entities are both physical and institutional by nature. Mexico is not only a place, but a country, and a country is composed also by human institutions, whether we choose to refer to it by its official name, or by its common name. A country is a definite concept as much as it is an abstract concept.
• However, there is no need to elaborate on the above (we should not divert from our main concern). In any case, this article is not about the physical islands, but about the geopolitical entity. United States, Mexico, Catalonia, Florida, et. al. are articles about the geopolitical entity (government if you will) and not about places per se. If a distinction needs to be made, then a separate article is necessary (i.e. Baja California vs. Baja California peninsula). Moreover, this geopolitical entity has an official statutory name: Illes Balears. What's not neutral or solid about it?
• Also note that Maurice27 is not contesting the fact that Illes Balears (Catalan) is the official statutory name in both Catalan and Spanish. If you review his reversions in this article (and his 4 consecutive reversions in Valencia (autonomous community), that got him blocked, again, for 24 hours), he says that the phrase "comunidad autónoma" must be added to the official name always. In fact, he added the Spanish phrase "Comunidad Autónoma de les Illes Balears"(Catalan) to the infobox in this article and the ludicrous "Comunitat Autònoma de la Comunitat Valenciana" in the other article. You can read the rationale behind his reversions here.
• I still think we must define our terms, if we wish to reach a consensus. If "government" is defined as the geopolitical entity (or, like you said human institution of government) then the name of the government is simply Illes Balears, (or United Mexican States). But then when you say, "... indicate in any way what government is currently administering the islands", what comes to my mind is either the form of government or the political party currently administering the island. I think we are understanding the word government differently. Like I said, if you refer to the geopolitical entity, then it does have an official name, and this article is about the geopolitical entity.

--the Dúnadan 18:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You are completely wrong about me getting blocked... Sorry if this disappointed you... :(

The reason for me not to continue arguing with you is that I find this a complete sterile discussion, as you just don't want to listen. The "Autonomous community of" has been present in this article since 2003, in both catalan and spanish without any single change. And suddenly, a beautiful afternoon of April, 9 2007, the names in the infobox are changed. Even if both languages were correctly written following the statuary law which indicates that "Illes Balears" (conventional short form of the name) is to be present.

Now, as I said, I won't continue to argue with you about if the ""Autonomous community of" in both catalan and spanish is to be present. I already proved that the BOIB does use the conventional long form rather than the conventional short form of the name. It is proven! But, you decided that this didn't convince you, and you keep fighting to remove it arguing that "the statute law indicates that the official is Illes Balears" and bla bla bla...

The moment you will understand that we are talking about conventional long form or conventional short form of the name rather that the official or not official language to be used, will be a great day! I think it was yesterday you mentioned Canada and Ireland, countries that use their short name. Well, that's because those countries do not have a conventional long form of their names. But again, (sorry for the redundancy), the BOIB has proven that the Govern of Illes Balears does make use of this conventional long form. So, it exists, it is official enough to be used in a official document such as the BOIB and it is official in both languages in its long form.

It is proven... explained... argued. If you want to keep at your position of "Paladine of your truth", please, feel free. It is just like arguing with a brick. You are making this article to be the ONLY ONE IN WIKIPEDIA not to use the conventional long form of the name in the infobox. Cheers for that!

Oh, and the goverment of the islands does have a name: Govern de les Illes Balears ([[13]]). --Maurice27 19:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:Etiquette. I have answered your arguments several times. I will just answer the "new" arguments you are exposing:

• There is no conventional statutory long form name. Autonomous community is the name of the political entity, but it is not part of the name. Read the second article of the Statute of Autonomy.
• Govern de les Illes Balears, as it is the case in all parliamentary democracies, refers exclusively to the executive branch of government (otherwise known as "administration" under congressional systems) The institution of government that comprises both the legislative (parliament) and executive branches (presidency or government) in Catalonia and Valencia is known as "Generalitat". There is no name for that in the Illes Balears. The thirty-ninth article simply states that the sistema institucional autonòmic is comprised by the Parliament and the Presidency (aka Govern). That is why I wanted all terms to be clearly defined before we started our discussion.

Could some one else come and mediate, please?

--the Dúnadan 19:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Like I said... like arguing to a brick! Now, the goverment of the Balearic Islands has no name... incredible! Anyway, I'm not losing my time anymore with this kind of people. If you want to poison all this article, from top to bottom, go ahead. This is USELESS! --Maurice27 23:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. --the Dúnadan 23:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can we have something about the islands?

Etymology and (mostly ancient) history eat up the entire article. People? Economy? Recent history? Tourism? Geology? Geography? These islands deserve a far better article than they have now. Jd2718 (talk) 11:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)