Talk:Balachka

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[edit] Questions re recent edits

Kuban - You state:

1) The earliest examples of Balachka formed during the 14th century, when the then independent Don Cossack Host was known to talk in accents significantly different from that of the standard Moscow langauge.

When was the first use of the word "balachka" in Russian literature. I'm certain that it wasn't in the 14th century. In fact I would probably make a stake that there are no occurences of the word "balachka" in Russian language sources before 1990.

2) Before the 20th century, literacy rates were low. During the Russian Empire Census of 1897, certain Balachkas, such as the Kuban-Black Sea (Кубанско-Черномрская), was recorded as a dialect of Ukrainian instead of Russian.

Why would Ukrainians speaking a Ukrainian dialect be recorded as Russian speakers? At the end of the 19th century intermarriage was rare and emigration was still taking place from Ukraine. When did the Ukrainian settlers change over to Russian and what was the process in which it was done?

Is the term "Balachka" used in the Russian Wiki or any Russian encyclopedias. I can't find it? Is it a read term in Russian? Bandurist 02:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

1. The term might not have been but the dialect was well in use it does not matter what one calls it and when the name was invented.

2. On the contrary intermarriage was very common, particularly for those living with Cossacks, and they were not "emigrating" from Ukraine, but moving from one part of the Russian Empire to another. Remember that Ukrainian nationalism was not widespread in Little Russia until the start of WWI really, so the theory of patriotic Russians (even if they were classed as "Little") left to settle the borders of their empire fully holds. Makes sense? Those that went to become educated would learn to write in standard Russian (Great Russian if you like). The process was education and the reduction of illiteracy. I should tell you that at the start of the 20th century, Cossack lands, had one of the highest levels of literacy. However this did not began back in 1897, this began as early as 1792. People move to a new land, they make it their own. --Kuban Cossack 12:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-write

Just to let you know Bandurist, I am preparing a major re-write of this article based on material that's taken from literature and linguistic sources (not forums and hand-drawn maps). Including those published by VIKTOR ZAKHARCHENKO himself!, so this OR version, if you insist on keeping it as temporarily then so be it, I have better time to spend than revert war. --Kuban Cossack 17:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

1. Why do you insist on clling it a dialog of Russian? On what authority?
2. Why do you constantly remove all mentions of Ukrainian language from the article?
3. Why do you remove the source list and the examples given in the article?

Bandurist 19:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

- 1. On the sources cited, on what authority do you call it a dialect of Ukrainian?

The term Balachka is a word of recent coinage. I first heard it in 1991 in Krasnodar at the Golden Apple folk music festival and it was used in a demeaning manner for the way villagers from the Stanytsi who spoke Ukrainian on the streets of Krasnodar. The village language of Kuban is recognized as being Ukrainian.

I first heard it in 1979 when I began speaking ... and my first langauge was...Russian with a Balachka dialect. My stanitsa in particular has a very strong twist of it, yet that language is not Ukrainian. Its Balachka, and its a form of Russian. --Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

- 2. I did not, I removed those that were uncited, using for example forums is blatant violation of WP:SOURCE.

We differ here. You have a tendency of removing the word Ukrainian from all sources you touch, constantly changing the word to Russian inspired derogatory terms. The Russian POV is consitantly represented in your articles.

I did not add POV material to the article, and used forums for refrences. --Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

- 3. None of those sources were relevant. How Ukrainian communicate? Balachka speakers are not Ukrainians, ref to the census if you like..

Census numbers are wonderful but they do not represent the true situation of the language in the Kuban. For native Ukrainian speakers to go from 68% inthe 1930's to 2% as cited by your census figures within a generation raises many questions.

Actually 68% is not what I am getting. 1939 not more than 5% of Ukrainians.... Raises questions, well qualitively if you compare with other regions of the USSR, the increase in total number of population is not out of proportion. Also remember that in 1936 the Kuban Cossack Choir was re-established and Kuban Cossack regiments were formed in the Red Army. Clearly Kuban Cossacks are not Ukrainians, and if you believe some stories I heard, it is an insult to call a Kuban Cossack a Ukrainian because they survived the early 1920s forced Ukrainizations. Zakharchenko clearly states that by the 1850s the first linguistic research showed that the dialect of the Black Sea Cossacks was different from standard Ukrainian. --Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Now here are my questions:

- 4.Why do you inisist its deragotory? On what authority?

The word Balachka is a Ukrainian word. It does not exist in Russian and thus it cannot be found in Russian dictionaries. The word Balakaty means as you well know : to babble, the term Balachka means Babble. The Ukrainian dictionary describes the word as being of derogatory meaning and certainly in the context of applying it to Ukrainian speakers it is demeaning.

Correction it originated from Ukrainian, but in Russian it has a different meaning, just like magazine and Магазин. Are you going to inisist that the Russian word for calling a shop is a jargon term for a journal? --Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

- 5.Why do you remove that Balachka formed by the Don Cossacks, its the earliest known record

Show me a reference of the Don Cossacks speaking Balachka from the 13-14th century. The term as mentioned has only been recently introduced. In its current meaning it cannot be used to descibe the Russian language of the Don Cossacks, especially the language they spoke in the 13th -14th centuries.

[1], read the abstract.

- 6.Why did you twist the sentanceIt is thus not surprising that many Cossacks are reintroducing Ukrainian language.. Modern Russian Cossacks do not speak Ukrainian. Such statements must have refrences!

If you look at the many websites for the Krasnodarsky krai and the ones specifically dealing with the revival of traditions you will know that tradition revival is being supported throughout the Krai, but its implementation is not uniform. In most classes in schools that they have these tradition classes most just confine their activities to singing some songfs and learning voicabulary. The songs are in the Ukrainian language and the vocab are Ukrainian words. This is pretty obvious. Theyu don't need to learn Russian words because they already know them and have access to Russian dictionaries. The young people however do not have access to Ukrainian dictionaries and do not always understand everything their forefathers said and sang about.

Ok, four days ago I oversaw a group of twenty young Cossacks give an oath to the Kuban Cossack Host, how is the fact that the Ataman spoke balachka have anything to do with Ukrainian langauge? Also the songs are sung in Balachka, NOT in Ukrainian. As Zakharchenko pointed out most of those songs are unique to the Kuban and in many cases they are more Russian than Ukrainian. --Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

- 7.This whole statement:Occasionally, the speaker may use a Russian term for words they may not know in Ukrainian and may use msre common Russian spellings rather thatn directly transcribing from speech. The reason for this is the fact that all Ukrainian language schools in Russia were closed in 193 and as a result Ukrainians in Russia have never learned to write in Ukrainian. First of all in AD 193 there were no Ukrainians and there were no Russia, second the whole statement of using a Russian word is OR, as cited in Zakharachenko's article, by the mid 19th century the Black Sea Cossacks had their own authentic dialect DIFFERENT from standard Ukrainian. Ukrainian schools have nothing do to with this, again Original Research. --Kuban Cossack 09:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

1934 a typo is when if I remember correctly the Ukrainian schools in the Kuban were all closed. Zakharchenko is a great man, however he is a composer and conductor and not a linguist or language specialist. You know well that in the mid 19th century the Ukrainian language and publications in that language was banned by the Valuyev Ukaz and then the Ems ukaz. The dialect of Ukrainian is based on the dialect of central Ukraine and from the writings of Kuban writers such as Kucharenko and Varrava and others does not differ in any remarkable manner from that of Central Ukraine at that time. Bandurist 17:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, until the end of the Caucasus war (1864), all of the Cossacks were in constant battle with the Circassians. Literacy rates were low back then. By that point, according to Zakharchenko, and songs which date to that period, already Balachka was in full swing, not as a Ukrainian dialect but as a hybrid (45:45 if you want) of Russian and Ukrainian with another 10 to Circassian terms. Next I will just copy from an early statement: Remember that Ukrainian nationalism was not widespread in Little Russia until the start of WWI really, so the theory of patriotic Russians (even if they were classed as "Little") left to settle the borders of their empire fully holds. Makes sense? Those that went to become educated would learn to write in standard Russian (Great Russian if you like). The process was education and the reduction of illiteracy. I should tell you that at the start of the 20th century, Cossack lands, had one of the highest levels of literacy. However this did not began back in 1897, this began as early as 1792. People move to a new land, they make it their own.--Kuban Cossack 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway I have requested a third opinion, I am tired of trying to get you to do discuss the issue, all you do is revert. This is counter-productive as it is. --Kuban Cossack 14:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third party opinion

Kuban's version - I know nothing about any of these languages, and haven't looked at the article in great detail. I've had no dealings ever with either of the two editors. However, as a native English speaker I can say that User:Kuban kazak's version of this article is more credible, better written and is reasonably "encyclopedic". I think that User:Bandurist probably has many good things to add, but I would ask that he only do so if the result is acceptable to Kuban. PR^talk 16:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That violates the wikipedia policy regarding owning articles. No user should have to get permission from another user to edit. Ostap 17:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not what he said. Read the comment carefully. --Kuban Cossack 18:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I will highlight it for you. I would ask that he only do so if the result is acceptable to Kuban Now, read WP:5P and see if anyone can edit only if one gets a permission. --Hillock65 18:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I decipher the comment as Bandurist needs to stop reverting and engage in discussion, work to such a stage that would allow a consensus to be forged The fact that the third party refused to accept a version that is uncited but uses public forums shows about the quality of Bandurist's version. The person suggests to take my version as the base and build on it. If you are not satisfied ask for another party to voice his opinion. --Kuban Cossack 19:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

When I first started the article I did research in both Ukrainian and Russian sources. There were no references to Balachka in the Russian Wikipedia at all, and no Russian sources except the Siberian Wikipedia. There were also no references to Balachka in the Great Soviet Encyclopeia nor in the Russian dictionaries which I had. None. However there were reference to it in Ukrainian sources and on the Ukrainian wikipedia.

I put together the article. Along comes Kuban. He is not happy that the article, in parrticular references to the word ot term Ukrainian, so he immediately removes it - without any discussion. He also removes 3/4 of the article, in particular examples of what Balachka looks like, for those who had some knowledge of Ukrainian or Russian to see for themselves. He replaces the map of Ukrainian dialects (which is used in the Siberia wiki on the article) and substitutes it with some sort of illegible map of Russian dialects which has nothing to do with the language the cossacks of the Kuban speak. He then states that Balachka is a Russian word, despite the fact that it does not appear in the Russian language dictionary (because it is a colloquial Ukrainian word) and removes all references to the Ukrainian origin of the dialect.

It is disturbing to observe what you are doing, your Russocentric POV in disinformation and the methods you use to accoplish this. Many of your articles are nicely written, but when it comes to the Ukrainian language issue this is where we have a conflict. It came up when you insisted that the Metropolitan stations in Kharkiv have to be in Russian, despite the fact that they are all in Ukrainian (I am currently completing my PhD there, and despite the Russian character of the centre of town, the Metro is one place that everything has been Ukrainianized) You continue to push your Great Russian Imperial agenda.

Similar tings happened in my various Ukrainian bandurists from the Kuban. You russified their names, despite the fact that they were Ukrainian, made no contribution to Russian culture, and are only known in the general population by their Ukrainin names.

And then there is the wholesale destruction of artcles I wrote about the Kuban National Republic (basically translations from the Ukrainian Wiki) back in Augiust which you totally destroyed.

You ask why I don't answer many of your recent comments. Kuban - you approach such matters from the POV of a Great Russian Chauvanist. You will not change and probably cannot change, and I do not haave the time nor energy to change your POV. Bandurist 19:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all calm down, erupting like a woman on the peak of her period is not helpful for wikipedia

Second, I explained already that just because something does not exist in an encyclopedia does not mean it does not exist: In fact Balachkas does not, but the verb does ru wikitory!

Thirdly the map you refer to is hand drawn and does not even have a note on the end, per WP:SOURCE a map needs to be credible to be used, moreover the different maps of Ukrainian dialects show a slightly different distribution of langauges.

Fourthly I actually offered you as a consensus proposal of moving the station names of Kharkiv Metro to Ukrainian recently

Fifthy, the article on uk-wiki about the Kuban National Republic is but a collection of POVs nothing else nothing more. It barely resembles any events what happened during those days. In fact the Rada had a very small following in its short and uneventful history, and its only affiliation to Ukraine was a political (or military) alliance, later it was simply dissolved by Denikin and nobody from the Kuban Cossacks even put a fight to get rid of that group of clowns

Sixthly despite the fact that they were Ukrainian, made no contribution to Russian culture, and are only known in the general population by their Ukrainin names. What is general population? Which general population. An average Joe will not know what a Bandura is let alone where Kuban is.

Seventhly you continuously accuse me of pushing a POV? Is this because of lack of arguments or general fear of losing? I for one have quite a few opinions about you, yet I also have dignity and its not a Cossack thing to try to discredit your opponent by accusing him of nationalism and chauvinism. --Kuban Cossack 20:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting stuff

Came across this is interesting bit of Balachka: Чув, що під час останнього перепису населення Росії, Кубанці відмовлялися себе називати як росіянами так і українцями, називаючи свою національність "Козаки". В підтвердженні цього згадується роман "Тихий Дон", коли на слова більшовицького агітатора "Я такий же росіянин як і ти", донський козак гнівно відповідає "Бреше" Козаки від козаків пішли!". Наскільки моя інформація відносно переписи на Кубані відповідає дійсності? [quote]

Так, дійсно і кубаннці і терці і донці і інші козаки і казаки в Росії більше звуться казакми/козаками показуя що це національна назва. І я теж колись так називав себе і я теж колись відмовлявся називатися не тільки росіянином (а точніше русскім), а і українцем. Просто ми думаємо що назва українець це не національність, а громадянство і місце проживання. І якщо наші предкі жили в Україні, те вони й були українцями, а зараз ось ми вже живемо ни в Україні, те й ми вже і не українці, а наприклад кубанці чи терці! А в загалі ми мов козаки. Ну і що що гутаримо по українськи? Ну і що що в нас українськи прізвіща, байдуже ми не українці, а козаки ми! А те що наші предки колись були українськими козакми, те ось ми вже стали кавказькими козаками! Потім я впізнав, що украінці розмовляють такою же мовою як і ми, тільки називая її українською мовою, а не козацькою (кубанською) балочкою, як ми. Коли я був у арміі я чув як українці розмовляють і я їх розумів і я з ними спілкувався. І тут я задумався: у нас одна мова, одне обличчя (од кацапив ми все ж таки одрізняємося), значить і одна кров!!! Про це я потім спитав у моїх родичів, а вони сказали, що ми же не в Україні живемо, а на Кавказі, значить ми не українці. я ось тут і задумався серьйозно, хто ми?????!! Звичайно я згоден, що "козаки од козаків ведуться", але й гуцули теж од гуцулів, і лемкі од лемків, і бойки од бойків і так далі. І тут я зрозумив, що всеж таки в нас одна мова (хоча і різні діалекти) і одне обличчя і одна кров і значить повинна бути і одна назва. Коли я їздив по Росії, всі мене називали українцем, із за мого наголоса і прізвіща. link title

What do you this Kubam? Bandurist 01:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

A private forum, with a political slant, how about this:
1. Современные украинские фольклористы, этнографы, журналисты, не говоря уже о политиках, часто называют кубанских казаков “украйинцямы Кубани”, яки запамьятувалы свою историю”. Однако такая околонаучная точка зрения, полностью отрицающая этническую, социальную, культурную и языковую самобытность кубанского казачества, в корне неверна, ибо она совершенно не соответствует действительности....
2. То, что кубанское казачество начало приобретать свои характерные социально-культурные особенности, которые отличали его от запорожцев и линейцев, уже в 1888 г. заметил Ф.А. Щербина, который писал...
3. Должен сказать, что и данные моего опроса исполнителей черноморских песен также свидетельствует о том, что подавляющее большинство черноморцев, несмотря на осознание своих генетических украинских корней, считают, например, своим родным языком кубанский, а не украинский. Во время звукозаписи исполнителям песен мною ставился один и тот же вопрос: кем вы считаете себя по национальной принадлежности – русскими или украинцами? И основное число опрашиваемых утвердительно отвечало: “русьскымы”. Тогда мне приходилось напоминать им об истории и генетических корнях кубанского казачества, после чего исполнители говорили: “Це наши прадиды булы колысь украйинцями та запорожцями, а мы уже давно сталы “кубаньскымы козакамы”.
4. Показателен в этом отношении факт, с которым нам часто приходилось сталкиваться в экспедициях. Русские и украинские песни более позднего происхождения, проникавшие на Кубань в начале XX в., в предвоенные и послевоенные годы так и воспринимались – как русские или украинские. А произведения, занесенные в прошлых столетиях первопоселенцами, несмотря на очевидное русское или украинское происхождение, воспринимаются как свои “кубанские”, “казачьи”.(to point out that Balachka is not Ukrainian)
5. Эти факты подтверждаются и фактом неудачной “украинизации” кубанского казачества, предпринятой в конце 1920-х гг. (перевод делопроизводства, издание периодики на украинском языке и т.п.). Это вызвало стихийный протест коренного населения, что подтверждается и нашими полевыми материалами, и архивными данными.

Source: Viktor Zakharchenko's article [2]. Talk about source, why did you create a fork at Cossack Ukrainian? --Kuban Cossack 18:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balachka - Ukrainian Dialect?

Let's set aside the political implication of the categorization of the dialect. First of all, balachka cannot be a "Cossack dialect" as stated in the first sentence of the article. Cossack is not a language so it has no dialects. It can be a dialect of X language that is spoken by Cossacks. Now, which dialect is it a language of? Sorry Kuban Kazak, but the evidence points to Ukrainian. The word itself is a Ukrainian word, a completely Ukrainian one for speech (there are for example, Ukrainian-language forums with no connection to Kuban that are called balakachka: [3] The tsarist census listed it under Little Russian (Ukrainian), rather than under Russian. It is listed as a Ukrainian dialect here: [4]. Posting by Bandurist of actual balachka shows its obvious Ukrainian nature (why was the comparison of balachka to standard Ukrainian text removed from this article? It was an interesting bit of information worthy of inclusion). This was by the way also observed by Isaac Babel. And here is from Isaac Babel's diary, August 10 and 11, 1920:

Night - an unusual night, the high road is brilliantly lit, my room is bright, I'm working...the Kuban cossacks are singing with feeling, their fin figures by the campfire, the songs are totally Ukrainian...

Toward evening, rain. Kuban Cossacks are staying the night in my room, strange: peaceful and warlike, domestic, and peasants of obvious Ukrainian origin, not all that young.

About the Kuban cossacks. Camaraderie, they always stick together...at night Kuban cossacks come to visit. Ceaseless rain, they dry themselves and eat their supper in my room...they are decent, friendly, wild, but somehow more sympathetic, domestic, less foulmouthed, more calm than the Cossacks from Stavropol and the Don.

The fact that balachka differed from standard Ukrainian by the 1850's does not change this fact. All dialects differ from the standard language - that is why they are dialects. Please, let us not politicize this article or any other relating to Kuban. Referring to balachka correctly as a separate dialect of the Ukrainian language does not imply Ukrainian pretensions on territory of the Russian Federation. As for the map - it appears in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. I see no reason for its exclusion because it is "hand-drawn."Faustian 20:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I never said that it was not a dialect of Ukrainian, I said that it is a hybrid langauge, that is all. Its formation parraleled the formation of the Kuban Cossack sub-ethnical group. Moreover there is not one unified Balachka, at present its a Cossack dialect that is not used uniformly by the Kuban Cossacks themselves. For example whilst an open Krug on the maidan including the whole stanitsa might well be conducted in it, a purely military operation will be discussed in standard Russian. I for example speak balachka only to any old people. When I am in service no way, there is no written rule that prohibits it, just like there is no written rule that prohibits speaking at all, its just a pure custom. I speak to my wife in standard Russian, because I have as much difficulty understanding her Western Ukrainian as she has my Balachka, except when we argue that is, but that's not a problem as profanity in Ukrainian is identical to Russian, and the same goes for Balachka. Actually here is one interesting feature of it. A lot of Cossacks when in public and when pissed off at something will use the -na. to puncutate a sentance. Like На шо ты напутал тут на? Пшел ка отседа на! You can imagine that after the -na, there should be another word that normally follows. However as Cossacks are forbidden and themselves find it very low to swear in public, especially when on service. So whatever follows -na would not be said. Yet the na itself is not exactly a profanity in any shape and form. Hence, from what I heard, for some children it is the first word they know...--Kuban Cossack 11:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating. The use of "na" was observed by Babel himself, when he described the Kuban Cossacks as less foulmouthed than those from Stavropol and the Don...Faustian 14:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In light of my earlier comments, would it make sense to state something like at the beginning of this article: "Balachka (Russian and Ukrainian: балачка) is the name of several East Slavic dialects that are spoken in the traditional Cossack regions of Russia such as the Kuban, Stavropol and Don areas. They are a hybrid of standard Russian and Ukrainian languages, with Circassian influences. The balachka of Kuban is generally considered a Ukrainian dialect (under the tsars, the Kuban balachka was offically categorized as "Little Ruissian") while the balachka of the Don and Stavropol regions is considered a Russian dialect."Faustian 16:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. What they are labelling Balachka is a dialect of Ukrainian. It is not Russian, although there is a strong influence of Russian. The label was initially used to denigrate people who spoke Ukrainian in public. It was never used to denigrate Don Cossacks because they spoke a dialect of Russian. The couple of words that have been borrowed from Circassian have little influence on the grammatical structure of syntaxis. They have more borrowings from French and english than Circassian. Currently there is a move is certain circles for the recognition of a seperate Cossack nationality. Culturally they can be classified this way but ethnically they cannot. KK is pushing this particular POV. It is unfortunately difficult to make a seperate Cossack nationality or ethnicity with 2 or 3 different ethnic peoples. Current scholarship does not support this dispite KK's distortions. Bandurist 16:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The balachka of Kuban is unambiguously labelled as a dialect of Ukrainian/Little Russian. I am assuming Kuban Kazak can find references to the speech of the Don cossacks as being called "balachka". If that's the case, then we have several dialects called "balachkas", one of which is a Ukrainian dialect and others being Russian. You are probably right with respect to Circassian. Do you have references showing that balachka was originally a denigrative term? It certinly doesn't sound like one, and Ukrainian-language internet forums refer tothemselves as "balachka": [[5]]. Balachka (from balakaty) seems comparable to "mova" ("rozmovliaty"). bestFaustian 18:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The term comes from the Ukrainian word to Babble ie what old women do. The use of the term for an internet communication is meant to be funny. When I was in the Kuban in 1991 for a month I toured with concerts in all of the Stanytsias and performed at teh Golden Apple Festival. I have photos of the festival and the posters etc. I was amazed that the bulk of the women all spoke Ukrainian. I made comments regarding the fact that their Ukrainian was so good and basically better than that spoken in Kyiv, In fact I heard more Ukrainian in Kuban than in Kyiv, however, at that time a couple of Russophone men used the word balakat' to denigrade (ie make smaller, to belittle) the language spoken and the mentaslity of the people. To me it was quite disgusting. It was a way of controlling the Ukrainina elemnet in Kuban. You will not find the term in Russian published literature anywhere. It is not an academic term in use anywhere. However there are people that are pushing it and are using to describe all sorts of things. It is like using the word Nigger. Granteed it means black, and it depends on the context of the use but despite everyone knowing the word no-one uses it opennly. If I use the word Katsap, it can be funny or denigrative acording to the context. Here, we have a word that was originally used to belittle the use of Ukrainian language, and a person who wnats the term to be excepted . Later he will say "Hey it was the Ukrainians themselves who were denigrating their own language. Look here etc.

I am predicting (because I have not the resources to check) that there are not references to Dpon Balachka before 1991 and this is a term that has only been recently introduced as part of that movement to unite Cosssacks into one entity. In the process the Ukrainia Cossacks will once again be freatend with Russification and a loss of one's own ethnic identity. Bandurist 19:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC) P.S. It is interesting to note that on some of the Russian forums in Kuban I have entered, people have been noticing that there are filters which blok the posting of materials in Ukrainian. The question arrises by Whom, and why ? And why the Kuban? Why the continual political manipulation of speakers of the Ukrainian language? But then Russia isn't doen't have the same definition for freedom and democracy that we share. Bandurist 19:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting observations. Let's see if we do get references for a Don balachka. With resepct to the nasty atttiudes towards the Ukrainian-speaking women in Kuban, perhaps the insult was not in the word balachka but in the tone, etc. Your internet experience seems conspiracy-seeking, but it does fit in with the pattern. The Russian elite has been extremely concerned about the country breaking apart (my in-laws move in those circles, I've heard a lot of this seming paranoia). Kuban is potentially critical, due to its proximity to the Caucuses (can you imagine what a pro-Ukrainian Kuban would mean for Russian interests?) and they have been very effective in nipping the problem in the bud, so to speak. An aggresively Russophile national orientation is thus promoted and alternatives denied. It seems to have been successful, judging by census declarations and such tungs. Have you read the article I posted elsewhere? [6] Fascinating stuff. Incidentally, a similar phenomenon has occurred in Zakarpatia, where the Rusyns have for the most part become very staunch Ukrainians (although they were likely Ukrainians to begin with). Ane excellent article on that topic: [7]Faustian 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have made numerous searches. There are no Russian sites with any academic discussion of Balachka that I could find. It is not in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia nor on Russian wiki. There was a reference to it in the Siberian wiki but after a lot of protest, Siberian wiki has closed down and all references to it have been removed.

PS I know both the authors of those articles personally. Interesting how they both wound up on these pages. Both were British based.Bandurist 15:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's give Kuban Kazak a chance to find some academic references to Don balachka. If he doesn't after a week or two, we can consider balachka to refer only to the dialect of the Kuban cossacks, and thus as per linguists, a Ukrainian dialect. If the references are there, but exclusively from the '90's, they are still legitimate but that fact should be noted.best Faustian (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

That sounds quite fair to me. Bandurist (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Feedback to comments

Well I am quite happy that we are finally talking rather than boycotting (Was that something difficult to do?). I still don't understand why create a WP:POVFORK at Cossack Ukrainian (considering that its name is as confusing as the article itself).

Now then, Bandurist you say that Balachka is deragotory because of an incident you viewed towards some women from a stanitsa back in 1991. Well what can I say, first of all in Russia (and in Ukraine) what is more true that false is that there is indeed a social division in society. People do use the word "Деревня" to people from rural backgrounds with appropriate steotypes, do you really think that in Kuban its any difference. Станиччина, Хуторщина, балакают не пойми на чем, а сами хозяева края блин, ни образования ни работы, по-оделись в Черкесски и вперед всем мозги проёбывать. Equally Ну 'ородовики на, ково вони из сибя придстваляють на? Чиво они знають да понимають? Понаедуть у станитсю на свойих инамарках и давай з высака на всих зырять. Ну сколька можна эт' терпеть та на? This is the exact dialect that people speak at my home stanitsa, and anywhere else in the region, which can be colled as primary, as it was the first land settled by the Black Sea Cossacks [8] This above is as maximum Ukrainian as it will get. Where people who visit, believing that the Caucasus mountains are far away, will be shocked to see old men with big beards, dressed in Cherkesskas (summer) and Burkas (winter) sitting on the maidan smoking pipes (our starshinas). Whilst a young couple would engage in a Lezginka dance do fast beat. I don't know what Bandurist saw back in 1991, for me and for us Kuban Cossacks that was a different time and a different century ago. (I gave my formal Cossack oath after my service in Chechnya as part of a volunteer regiment (there was no specific Cossack unit, just volunteer kontraktniki that was 90% of people from Cossack areas), even afterwards, having my Cossack and officialy registered, I would complete Saint Petersburg State University, and make a living in Moscow, whilst going back and forth all over Russia to get training. Only in late 2004 would I move permanently back home to my native stanitsa.

So what we were discussing, oh yes, it seems that you began talking about how Russia is in fear of secession of the Kuban. That is the most rediculous theory I've ever heard. Us Cossacks seceeding from Russia (and even afterwards having a pro-Ukrainian orientiation) is simply laughable, and only a person who has never been to the Kuban, who knows f.. all about the region could come up with such outrageous bs as that. Public forums are beign censored you say... as soon as people start speaking Ukrainian. Yes, if they come there to provoke and inflame the discussions they would be blocked. Kuban Cossacks don't know Ukrainian! That is the fundamental issue on why Balachka cannot be a Ukrainian dialect. Statements like its Ukrainian grammar with Russian volcabulary is an equal OR imagniation. How can it have a grammar if it has no written form!? How can it be a Ukrainian dialect when the portion of Ukrainian speakers in the Kuban is less than no.of ethnic Ukrainians, and that as shown by 1989 statistics on Ukrainians in Russia page, in 1989 there were less ethnic Ukrainians in Kuban than those who were native of the Ukrainian SSR living there. The number of ethnic Ukrainians decreased from 1989 to 2002, whils the number of ethnic Russians actually increased numerically and proportionally (at a time when elsewhere in the country the population is falling). If Ukrainian separatism was a serious issue in Kuban, like that of Russian separatism in Crimea, would Russia follow a policy similar to that Ukraine is chasing in the east and south (appeasing the moderates, supressing the extremists). In the Kuban there is noone to appease, noone to supress. Period! --Kuban Cossack 19:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but what you have written is mostly personal opinion and not referenced facts, so therefore it is ineligible for inclusion in the article. It is a fact that Tsarist authorities placed balachka under the category of Little Russian, not Russian. It it is a fact that it is characterized as a Ukrainian dialect [9]. If you knew more about dialects you would be aware of the fact that it not strange at all that someone who only understands a dialect has a lot of difficulty understanding the main language and vice versa. For example Austro-Bavarian is unrecognizable to a speaker of standard German only.Faustian (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Carefull comparison of your link with Ukrainian language make the text almost 1:1. However I remember how me and Yakudza wrote the section on dialects of that article. See the link below. So we have a 2:1 refrence for hybrid, one from a respected composer, who knows Kuban songs, knows Ukrainian and Russian and openely concludes that the Kuban Cossack dialect is a hyrid. We have a source which I gave below which openly states of a hybrid dialect as well. We also have the 1897 Russian census which stated it as Little Russian, ok that is an important point, will be included in the article as such. However we already have evidence that this hybrid dialect, already formed before the census. Which means that you can't really class it as Bandurist is trying to push It is not Russian (quoted from above). Therefore the dialect is Russian, and it is also Ukrainian. Source below is independent and directly contradicts Bandurist as well. All the less, do you support the move to Kuban Cossack Dialect?--Kuban Cossack 20:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

BTW here is the requested refrence for the DON [10], here is a quote Въ станицахъ 1 - го Донского окр. въ говор часто встрчаются слова малороссiйскiя; этихъ словъ еще больше встрчается въ говорнизовыхъ казаковъ и въ станицахъ, расположенныхъ выше по Донцу, въ Гундоровской и въ особенности Луганской. Въ говорнизовыхъ казаковъ звуки в и у часто замняютъ другъ друга, особенно въ началсловъ, какъ, напримръ: усе - все, узять, лоуко - ловко, въ мене - у меня, въ насъ -у насъ. Вмсто ы всегда употребляется и, какъ то: бики, корови, риба, вигодно, вiхалъ, виждалъ, вискочилъ, вилeтлъ, вишал(вышелъ), викосилъ, вирзалъ, ми (мы), ви и проч. Вмсто ы часто произносится о: накролъ, закролъ, помолъ (помылъ); звукъ е почти всегда замняется и, а окончанiе "eтъ", произносится какъ "ить", напримръ: бгаить или бгить, читаить, играить, гуляить, скачить и т. д. Также говорятъ: ходю, просю, крутю, чистю, оны (они), булъ (былъ), чугинъ (чугунъ), выпулилъ глаза, вмсто выпялилъ глаза, вечиръ вмсто вечеръ, смички, гарбузъ - арбузъ и проч. --Kuban Cossack 20:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the reference. I do not see the Don Cossack dialect being referred to as balachka, however.

I am not a linguist so I don't know what makes something a dialect or a language; I can only go by linguists' examples and other analogous situations. For example, a dialect can have significant input from other languages however and still be a dialect of the "parent" language. For example, the Polish Silesian dialect is a hybrid with Czech and German influences. Kuban balachka seems to be a Ukrainian dialect (as per the world languages website and the tsarist authorities' own classification) with very strong Russian influences, and some Circassian influences. I don't know, but I suspect that the Don dialect may be a Russian dialect (Don cossacks are mostly of Russian descent. right?) that has many Ukrainian influences due to proximity to Ukraine and to Kuban. The reality seems to be one of blurred boundaries but the references seem to draw a line, even if a blurred one, of Kuban balachka being a dialect of Ukrainian. bestFaustian (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just a quote

[11] The Kuban Cossacks speak a Cossack language of mixed Russian and Ukrainian influences read on. As of now, I think this refrence is enough to redirect Cossack Ukrainian to here, which I will do. Also if the word balachka is not accepted why not make this article specific on the Kuban dialect and just move it to Kuban Cossack Dialect? --Kuban Cossack 20:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Юрій Криворучко, член Української Всесвітньої Координаційної Ради: "Ще в 30-х роках на Кубани і Воронежчині були десятки українських шкіл, були українські наукові інституції, ЗМІ. В результаті сталінського режиму – все це було тотально ліквідовано. На сьогоднішній день не залишилося нічого". Навіть в 60-тих роках, зазначають мовознавці, в сільських школах Кубані на перервах розмовляли тільки українською, а російську – вчили на уроках. Нині українську вивчають - експериментально - як кубанську говірку. Викладачка предмету "Кубанське наріччя" і досі не збагне, чому в цьому краї так називають українську.

Тамара Прокоп"єва, вчителька предмету "Кубанське наріччя": "Я не знаю, може просто так назвали! Кубанський діалект української мови? Справа в тому, що ця книжечка, тут на чистій українській мові все написано. Але оскільки діти в школах не вивчають мови, то до цієї книжечки є переклад слів, деякі вірші українською, а поряд – російською, про письменників написано російською." http://observer.org.ua/news.php?id=398

Although its not exactly a radical nationalist website, the other content that is on that page borders on it. I try to avoid using sources such as http://www.rustrana.ru, you should to. --Kuban Cossack 11:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

О, то вже зовсім інше тема! Ми запропонували на Кубані розпочати системно вивчати українську мову, літературу, культуру. Та отримали відповідь від краснодарського віце-губернатора, Кубанського козачого отамана Громова, що на Кубані, мовляв, немає української мови, я є так званий „кубанський діалект”.http://www.ukrnationalism.org.ua/interview/?n=62

If you are keen on using MNK as a reference why don't I use: http://www.otechestvo.org.ua for refrence? --Kuban Cossack 10:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

На Кубані дійсно були українські козаки і розмовляли вони українською мовою, але за 200 років і мова могла відійти від основної маси і вплив російської міг бути дуже сильним, дійсно ще зовсім недавно там розмовляли українською і кажуть що бабці в селах продовжують розмовляти, а от дітей вже в школах навчили "правильній вимові рідної мови" (російської). Співають там і досі українською. Якось випадково спілкувався з вчителькою з Кубані вона каже: "ми так довго боролися щоб побороти ту говірку у дітей і побороли, а тепер зрозуміли, що таким чином втратили свою культуру http://lingvoforum.net/index.php?topic=2251.msg99058

public forum..--Kuban Cossack 10:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

~~Діалект - велике запозичення слів, але без порушень правил рідної мови.~~

Жаль конечно ещё шо российское правительство так добивается ликвидации нашей исконной, родной кубанской-украинской культуры....пэчально....http://lingvoforum.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=03af09bc0c25179d90b0aaf7fb8bcbf3&topic=2251.30

public forum..--Kuban Cossack 10:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There are 549 articles about Кубанський діалект in Ukrainian using Google.

So there are 53,200 for Кубанский диалект in Russian using Google. --Kuban Cossack 10:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Донских казаков мне встречать не приходилось, а кубанские, говорят действительно на своём Кубанском диалекте, который много ближе к Украинскому языку, чем к Русскому. И называют они себя кубанские казаки, а вовсе не русские. Я бывал несколько раз в Краснодарском крае, на гастролях, провёл там в общей сложности месяца три. Театр в котором я работал, выступал в самом Краснодаре, но выездные группы, ездили по станицам. Так что я видел кубанцев, нос к носу. Правда и украинцами они себя не считают, но украинский понимают отлично. http://rtviforums.com/forum/index.php?s=9e267dc60ac2dca648d6119d6693d0ba&showtopic=31&st=300&p=10390&#entry10390

Public forum...--Kuban Cossack 10:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

--Bandurist (talk) 01:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist please read WP:SOURCE and WP:V, that was dissapointing! --Kuban Cossack 10:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

In particular Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Aspects of reliability#Reliability of specific source types#Extremist sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Examples#Questions about the reliability of specific sources#Are web forums and blog talkbacks reliable sources?... Seriously I though you new better than that. --Kuban Cossack 11:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist wasn't using the quotes from the forums as references for the article (they clearly don't belong as such), so I don't see what the problem is. It's useful, interesting information. You are heavily and proudly involved and invested in the Kuban Cossack movement, which in its present form, from the 1990's, is a very Russophile/Russian nationalist organization. I don't have a problem with that, it's your right, and you guys are admirable in many ways. In my opinion, as an editor you are quite knowledgable, make valuable contributions, and I don't dount your sincerity. However in my opinion, sometimes your strong political convictions lead to a skewed view of situations dear to your heart (no different or worse, I think, than the views of a an educated, sincere member of the OUN although from a completely contrary perspective). So I appreciate Bandurist relating his own experiences in the Kuban, and the quotes he provides from people in Kuban, even if those quotes can't be wikipedia references, because they provide a fuller picture of what is going on there than what you alone provide.

Incidentally, I have heard that a team from Harvard are conducting a lot of ethnographic research in Kuban. It should be interesting... best Faustian (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey Faustian are you still there? It be nice to settle this dispute. --Kuban Cossack 18:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My suggestion

Go to 'Dialect map of Russian language' (see 'External Links of Balachka article') - this link is Russian link, so I guess there is no accusation of Ukrainian nationalism:)

On this map, Kuban Balachka area (except upper Kuban - Lineitsy area: Lineitsy are descendants of Don Cossacks) is called 'Dialects created with mutual influance of Ukrainian and Russian language as well as Ukrainian-Russian dialects'.

Furthermore, even though this source is Russian, dialect is called 'Ukrainian-Russian' and NOT 'Russian-Ukrainian', meaning that even Russian source has no way, but to accept that Ukrainian has more influence on lower Kuban Balachka (i.e. without Lineitsy area).

Kuban Cossack, are you living in Lineitsy area?

Anyway your personal experience of Balachka (you say that you speak Russian with some Ukrainian words) is not scientific grounds. Sorry.

Even in Ukraine, due to Russification policies of USSR, we were talking more and more Russian words in our language. I can tell you that even in the westernmost Volyn (near Polish border) many say Russian 'horosho' instead of Ukrainian 'dobre' (I was they last year).

Furthermore from time to time, people in ANY PART OF UKRAINE (incl. Galichina) talk in standard Russian to comers from Russia or cities of Eastern Ukraine. Due to that Ukraine is now standard Russian-speaking area?

To get it more funny, is Turkey a Russian speaking area since many many Turks speak Russian to tourists?

From scientifica POV, lower Kuban area is not area of Russian language even in the am source (we, in ex-Soviet countries, know very well what is 'Russian source': it's very Russian biased at minimum, usually it is propaganda. If translated from Russian political bias to ethnic issues, 'Ukrainian-Russian dialect' in the Russian source could mean 'Ukrainian dialect' in simple unbiased human language. But I will not base my argument on this suggestion)

So, Kuban Cossack, again please do not mix up your personal experience with science.

Coming to Don Balachka (as well as Lineitsy dialect), on the same Russian map it is classified as Southern dialect of Russian language. And I guess it is where Don Balachka (as well as Lineitsy dialect) actually belongs. 'Dialect map of Ukrainian language' totally agrees with it (Lineitsy area has some small insertions of Ukrainian speaking areas - that's the only difference).

James B. Minahan writes explicitely that only Lineitsy dialect (upper Kuban Basin) 'has absorbed many Circassian words' and again 'descendants of Don Cossacks, Circassians and Russian colonists [concentrated] in the upper and middle..Kuban Basin' (Lineitsy area).

Anyway at the moment scientifically speaking, Don area as well as Lineitsy area (upper Kuban Basin) belong to Russian language area.

So it is not Cossack language or dialect from scientific POV (Forgive me if I am wrong, Kuban Cossack was suggesting in the article 'Cossacks' to call Cossacks subethnic group, which is funny and ungrounded).

Furthermore, one cannot extrapolate Don or Lineitsy words for the whole Kuban area as Lower Kuban area is very different from them as seen on both maps.

Even though Cossacks consider themselves one entity and speaking one language, they have different languages from scientific POV: lower Kuban area has Ukrainian or (as it called in Russian source) 'Ukrainian-Russian' language, whereas upper Kuban area and Don area has Russian language - even notwistanding that some authors (such as James B. Minahan) were influenced by the Cossacks wrong unscientific feelings and called it Cossack languageKKonstantin (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Conclusions: most scientists do not consider Balachka a separate language (in fact there is no one ethnographic map where Balachka area is marked as a separate language)

So I suggest that article reads 'Balachka is perceived as a separate language by Cossacks. However strictly scientifically speaking, Balachka is different dialects belonging to Ukrainian and Russian languages.'KKonstantin (talk) 16:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I am from Varenikovskaya, which is on the Taman Peninsula, and no I am not a Leniyets, or a Chernomorets or Khoperets, I am a Kubanets, and its the same answer you will hear anywhere in the Kuban irrespective of where you will go. --Kuban Cossack 11:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot revert to your version 'It is a hybrid of standard Russian with Ukrainisms'. What is the base for calling it 'standard Russian' or 'Cossack' language? Even Russian map calls it 'Ukrainian-Russian dialects'. IMPORTANT: YOUR DESIRE IS NOT SUFFICIENT BASE. So I suggest to put it somewhat more compromise: 'It is perceived as a separate language by Cossacks and one author.[1] However most scienists consider Balachka to be dialects belonging to Ukrainian or Russian languages.' NOTE: Ukrainian must be first as it is in the Russain ethnographic map and in all Ukrainian ethno sources. KKonstantin (talk KKonstantin (talk)15:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have added a number of ethno-linguistic maps to External Links which clearly show that one part of Balachka is considered to be a part of Ukrainian language and the other - part of Russian language by Ukrainian and foregn linguists. KKonstantin (talk) 11:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

I took a read through and mainly just improved wording. I did take out one sentence following the comment about Russification regarding formal knowledge of languages. Since the article is about Balachka, general observations about Ukrainian don't necessarily fit. It would be better to have an understanding of the historical use of language, for example, in schools in Cossack regions. If there are circumstances which applied to Ukrainian which were then explicitly also applied to Balachka, they can and should be noted as such (for example, what was happening with Balachka while Ukrainian was banned from the 1860's/70's to 1905 during tsarist rule)? —PētersV (talk) 23:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, the clarification about Little Russia(n) being Ukrainian came from The Roots of Ukrainian Nationalism: Galicia As Ukraine's Piedmont by Magocsi, not borrowing from another Wikipedia article. :-) —PētersV (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts again

Bandurist just because you can appeal to a wide array of users who having no involvement might agree with your edits, its still does not explain that you have simply reverted your old version, including the old spelling mistakes. Now if you want to throw away all the discussion above and continue to degrade into an edit warrior, ignoring any consensus drives, I will file an RfC because I had enough of this. Please stop and discuss issues. --Kuban Cossack 11:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Viktor Zakharchenko, Folk songs of the Kuban, 1997 Retrieved 07 November 2007]

[edit] 1

2 ^ a b c d Viktor Zakharchenko, Folk songs of the Kuban, 1997 Retrieved 07 November 2007]

I didn't find in your link the confirmation of the article's statetment: Already by that point however it was clear that the Kuban Balachka was suffciently different from the standard Ukrainian language. Please, explaine what did you mean under this "suffcient difference"? I wonder what are the criteria of such "suffciency" in the Eastern Slavic languages, especially in Russian and Ukranian that are very close to each other.

[edit] 2

The article begins "a Cossack dialect that is spoken in the traditional Cossack regions". This wording is very funny. Languages have dilects not social groups, like Cossacks. Fd far as I know Dflfchka is considered to be the dialect of Ukranian or Russian, depending on the tastes of the scholars. It's better to correct the present wording and write about both classifications according to WP standarts.

You can say a Cossack dilaect, just like you could say an army dialect, but you should add of... . AllenHansen (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cossacks as an ethnicity???

Kuban:

1) In your edit you have "a Cossack dialect". I do not think that there is a Cossack language, and hence, there cannot be a dialect. You can have a dialect of Ukrainian or Russian, but you cannot have a dialect of "Cossack".

2)If Balachka is a dialect, then it is a dialect of what? Russian or Ukrainian? The very term "Balachka" is rooted in the Ukrainian word 'balakaty' - to babble. I would naturally associate this term with dialect of Ukrainian rather than Russian.

3) The term "Balachka" has only recently been introduced. As a result there are no articles on the use of the term in any Russian publications. There was a mention of "Balachka" in the Siberian Wiki and in the Ukrainian wiki but there is none on the Russian wiki.

4) The term is related to the influence of contemporary Russian on ethnic Ukrainian speakers or visa versa. Why would one use the term "Balachka" for the 14th century when both these languages Russian and Ukrainian were not yet formed in their contemporary literary state?

5) "It is not known how widespread the use of Balachka is" indicates to me that no academic studies have been made of this subject, and no academics have even chanced to make an "educated guess". In fact it seems to me that this is something you may have concocted. It is own research.

Bandurist (talk) 15:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC) a recent

It would be helpful to have a clear and unambiguous reference (more than one is even better) which validates Balachka as a contemporary term for the traditional Cossack dialect(s)--that would be for the first sentence in the intro.

At that point, the substance of the article can deal with the Cossack dialect(s), that is--as far as I've seen so far--an amalgam of Ukrainian and Russian but also including unique words which occur in neither standard Ukrainian nor Russian.

I can always try and copy-edit again :-) —PētersV (talk) 22:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

'Unique words' (Circassian) occur ONLY in upper Kuban according to James B. Minahan (see reference in the article), where there is less Ukrainian language influence. This agrees with Ukrainian linguists considering upper Kuban area to be Russian Language dialect [with Circassian influence] whereas lower Kuban is Ukrainian language area according to them - in lower Kuban area according to James B. Minahan there is no influence of Circassian. So lower Kuban area is Ukrainian language area according to both KKonstantin (talk) 09:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Perhaps we might consider a short editing hiatus and first track down some decent and pertinent references? I added one, I'll poke around some more. Without sufficient references, it's going to be difficult to make the WP:OR tag to away. —PētersV (talk) 22:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vernacular vs. Literary

I have seen that Kuban Cossack refers to difference between Balachka and literary Ukrainian. This is not scientific approach to compare vernacular to literary. If you compare Russian literary to Russian vernacular of siberians or any other different Russian groups, you would find a lot of difference. Scientific approach is to look at the vernacular continuum of adjacent territories. If you would compare Ukrainian Surzhyk of Donetsk oblast to Balachka of Taman penincular (Krasnodar krai), you would see a lot of common words and very few different words. However if you compare Russian vernacular of Ust-Donetskiy (Rostov oblast where Sev.Donets and Don meet) to Balachka of Taman peninsular, you would see much more difference (than between Surzhyk and Balachka of Taman penincular).

This means that Balachka of Taman penincular is a continuum of Ukrainian whereas vernacular of Ust-Donetskiy is a continuum of Russian.KKonstantin (talk) 09:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see some refrences for those statements. Particularly as my own Varenikovskaya is located on the Taman peninsula and the balachka spoken here is much closer to standard Russian than Ukrainian, I have numerously explained above and will not repeat myself more. --Kuban Cossack 19:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Potentially useful references

I agree that at a certain point if editors have identified pertinent references, those should work their way into the article. However, if they are simply deleted as currently unused, then they're lost to editors other than whoever first identified them. Please use this section as a placeholder for references which haven't made it into the article. I'm starting off the list with the ones most recently deleted. If you want to discuss the reliability of a particular reference, please discuss beneath the list, don't break it up. I've numbered the list so it's easier to refer to the items; once a reference has made it into the article, please ~~strike it through~~ leaving it in place. —PētersV (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Dialect map of Ukrainian language (Ukrainian/English)
Peoples of Europe / Die Voelker Europas 1914 (German). http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/verbreitung_der_deutschen.htm
Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914 (German)
Ethnic Territory of the Ukrainian people in the Late Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries (English)
Etnographical map of Slavs / Národopisná mapa Slovanstva, end of 19th beginning of 20th century (Czech) Slovanstvo. Praha 1912. (Příloha.)

[edit] Reference discussions

(discuss here)

[edit] East Slavic.

Its not a dialect of either Russian or Ukrainian, as NEITHER of these languages exist in the historic sense. This is an East Slavic language! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.250.108 (talk) 04:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality tag removed

I hope noone minds, as it seems the dispute here is settled. --Kuban Cossack 16:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)