Talk:Baguio (disambiguation)

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This entry is incorrect. The name 'bagyo' is not spelled Baguio. And it is not based on the name of the city Baguio. Baguio is based on the plant that grew on the Benguet plateau called bagiw. Bagyo as a word has been in use even before Baguio was ever used.


---I don't think the entry is incorrect. Can you cite sources that support your second sentence above? I for one have seen the English spelling of "baguio" in references and textbooks rather than the Filipino spelling of "bagyo". I still have to see scholarly evidence for the usage of the bagyo spelling in English language. Also, citations are needed with your third sentence above. Yea I agree with your last two sentences. I have to adhere that the "baguio" entry must refer to the typhoon not to the city. We have Baguio City for that.--- Jordz 19:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

  • You think? I am sure it is incorrect. Because I live in Baguio and is very familiar with the city's history and the language (I am Filipino). The tagalog word "bagyo" has been in use long before the city "Baguio" was ever in existence. You are basing your data on the American Metereological Society? Who should know better about the Filipino language? The Americans or the Filipinos? The proper English word for "bagyo" is "typhoon" and should be used as such. Using "Baguio" as "bagyo" is akin to using "boondocks" instead of "mountain", it is at best, a non-universal american colloquialism. I suggest you read up on Baguio's history to gain knowledge on the name's origins. Let me help you out... http://www.cityofpines.com/history.html.

I then request for the deletion of this entry, or, the merge of the Wiki entry into Baguio City. At it's best, this entry is further aggravating the American's insistence of their own views and spellings of other people's languages.

  • ---Well, well, calm down, we're here to help Wikipedia and the people who use it. You must be infuriated with the idea of relating baguio the "typhoon" to Baguio City. Stop relating baguio to Baguio City. As I say, I agree with you that the AMS' glossary entry on baguio maybe is wrong. The main purpose of this article is to present that the local name for typhoons in the Philippines is "baguio". I don't think that is incorrect. Baguio is a natural scientific term that needs an entry in Wikipedia. In science we call a spade a spade no matter what. You may try to read it up in the tropical cyclone article. It's there. "Baguio is a regional name for tropical cyclone." It is a subclassification for typhoons and it is not a direct synonym to typhoons. By the way, I doubt that the Americans gave the spelling of baguio for bagyo, its more likely the Spaniards. FYI, You've mistaken me for an American, I'm a Filipino living near UP Diliman.

I'm open to further suggestions on this entry. I don't agree to your request to delete this entry or merge it to the article on Baguio city as they are two very different entries. Jordz

• Ok, while you're at it, why not make an entry for the Filipino word "sebo" with "cebu"? You are not helping the Wikipedia by giving an already incorrect, old reference even more "acceptable" and "scientific". In fact, English "translations" of other languages should not be used where the same alphabet is used. It should only be done with languages like Nihonggo, Mandarin, Russian, etc... Phonetically, "baguio" is different from "bagyo". Baguio is pronounced bãg-yew, while bagyo is bug-yõ. It was the Americans who gave the name Baguio to the geographic location, and not based on the rain but, again, on the plant. I hope you can provide proof of the usage of baguio in reference to the weather condition in any real Philippine context. This erroneous topic has been discussed by me with 5 professors of language (Filipino and English) by those I work with at the University of Baguio and our colleagues at the University of the Philippines Baguio, and we are in agreement that the use of Baguio as a translation for bagyo is incorrect and is not even used other than the obscure sources you mentioned. That said, you are better off developing this entry at bagyo. - Hal

--- Jordz, I will have to agree with Hal. Phonetically, Baguio is an inappropriate english deduction of "bagyo". Also, please provide proof that the term baguio=bagyo was used before the founding of the city. My fear is that this entry will only cause confusion for any first time traveller looking up on Baguio=city. On importance and priority, Baguio as an entry should go to the city and not to an obscure term. If your presumptions are indeed correct, then I have yet to encounter the use of Baguio=bagyo in the country either by a publication or the PAGASA. gomi

When and where did the term "baguio" came to be the english word for "bagyo"? PAGASA certainly doesn't use it. I think this fact should be verified and if it's not true, then this article, and the one on Tropical cyclones should be updated. --seav 14:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Consensus

Thank you for trying to discuss. I hope my changes are agreeable to all.--Jondel 00:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the typhoon reference was stupid. Its Bagyo, not Baguio. Also, can this be redirected to Baguio City, while the text can be moved to Baguio (disambiguation). --Howard the Duck 02:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I was trying to include the definition athe previous section.--Jondel 04:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
So the English spelling of bagyo is Baguio? --Howard the Duck 04:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

As you and seav have argued no. However it might be good to mention the Filipino word bagyo which would be informative. It is like mentioning Rafael at Raphael (disambiguation) , or words that are similar to avoid confusion. --Jondel 05:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the text that should be moved to Baguio (disambiguation) ?--Jondel 05:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Baguio may be moved to the disambig, while Baguio would now redirect to Baguio City. If you want, you can make Bagyo a redirect to Typhoon, with a note at the top saying, Bagyo redirects here, etc. etc..

You mean, Bagyo now redirects to Baguio.At the disambig page, can't we put

'See also Typhoons in the Philippines.'

?--Jondel 06:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there a tagalog article for Bagyo? I really don't see why bagyo should be at Baguio. Rafael and Raphael are virtually the same, albeit they are from different languages and/or spelling. But Baguio and bagyo seems far off. --Howard the Duck 06:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Let's finilize this. I'll be moving Baguio and Redirecting Bagyo to Baguio (disambiguation) , ok? --Jondel 06:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Methinks it's better if you'll direcr bagyo to typhoon, and add an interwiki link at typhoon at Bagyo Tagalog wikipedia article (if it exists.) --Howard the Duck 06:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think so too. I'll just go ahead with this.--Jondel 06:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


---I did some research and here are some proofs:

links for baguio en español:

links for baguio in english:

So, 1) it's not named after the City. 2) The English term came from the Spanish spelling. The evolution of the term can be stated as: bagyo (Fil.)> baguio (esp.) > baguio (eng.) As for bagyo? Well...---Jordz 13:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Please recheck, it would be nice to refer to a published and printed evidence before the founding of the city, 1909. It is very much possible that these references are due to the erroneous terminology used by AMS. Also, if it IS the english translation then why are we not using it as such, us being the third largest english speaking nation on the planet? Does not make sense. Are you implying that the City is named after the storms? Again, please read up on Baguio history also to even up your point of view. I also do not understand why you are so adamant in pursuing this unused definition with falsifiable evidence.

Your links for baguio in Spanish:

  1. - no baguio reference
  2. - reference is 2003
  3. - link broken
  4. - again, 20th century reference

links in English

  1. - no date reference
  2. - no date / no real reference
  3. - 1995
  4. - 2005
  5. - 2006 (?)
  6. - exact copy of #5
  7. - no date / similar to previous links

In fact, if you read the text properly, they seem to be copied off each other... with two variations very evident. At this time when it is so easy to copy text and paste them somewhere else, all these references are still not solid enough. Please show printed proof. All this can be the result of a misconception or a misspelling over 100 years ago. We do not use the word as such, isn't time we correct it? The proper english spelling for bagyo IS bagyo. It is strange to note that these references can easily use the proper spelling for other nation's terms but not the Philippines. --Haldamir 16:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


---Haldamir, try to hit your keyboard with the control+F within the body of the web page and key-in baguio or baguios. What I present is the usage of the term baguio in the pool of information in Spanish and English. As we can clearly see, bagyo IS NOT the proper English spelling for bagyo as those links above show. The hard fact is the unanimous homogeneity of the usage of baguio spelling. Show us proof of the usage of bagyo in English, if you can. "We do not use the word as such?" It's because the spelling is in English. en.Wikipedia.org is an ENGLISH encyclopedia, it's not the proper site to coin spellings not in use and present them as widely used. You're connected with UP Baguio, why not search the Filipiniana or Philippine History section in the UP library yourself? While you're at it, why not campaign the worldwide community to call the country Pilipinas only and not Philippines, Filipinas, Philippinen, etc.--is it time to correct it?

Second, Spanish Link 1 stated: L'any 1867 Frederic Faura...ben aviat va dedicar grans esforços a l'estudi dels ciclons, allà anomenats baguios." See the year? It's 1867. And this info: "L'any 1897, Algué publicava un llibre titulat Baguios ó ciclones filipinos." That's a published book, way before the founding of the city in 1909.Jordz 06:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW , this is French, not Spanish.But you've made your point Jordz.--Jondel 01:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Wait, what is the point of contention here? I am now lost. --Howard the Duck 06:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
That 'Baguio' is the (official?)Filipino term for hurricanes/typhoons in English articles(?) --Jondel 06:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
and also Spanish and French articles.--Jondel 07:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok even if "Bagyo" came from the word Baguio, we still wouldn't put it in the disambig page. Its like putting a notice such as For the Italian navigator, see Amerigo Vespucci in the America article, or For the Spanish king, see Philip II of Spain in the Philippines article, right? Bagyo is the official, and correct Tagalog term for typhoon. --Howard the Duck 07:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually the reverse,Baguio (Spanish thus English) comes from Bagyo(Tagalog ?). At the Typhoons in the Philippines, I mentioned 'bagyo'. I'm not sure about the English and need to look this up.--Jondel 07:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Now i'm even more confused (lol). So Baguio, which came from bagyo, should be added because it is english? Lemme consult the latest unabridged dictionary to find out.

Link atSee links for Baguio in English thanks to Jordz.--Jondel 07:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It is probably not in the dictionary.--Jondel 07:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If it's not in the dictionary, it's not an English word. Why don't we conduct a straw poll to finish this and achieve consensus? --Howard the Duck 07:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
But the words are already used in English. (see links for baguio in english at the middle of this section ) --Jondel 07:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Why not ask both PAGASA and the AMS? I guess, they're the most authoritative people to know about weather terminology. --seav 10:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

-- Jordz, you inadvertedly managed to blow up your own case. i.e. baguio is the English spelling of bagyo. I can see it now, baguio is the Spanish phonetical derivative of bagyo since their language did not allow the 'yo' to sound like the right syllable. It is then not English, any English source is merely citing the spanish spelling. Here's a clue: the spanish word for typhoons is tifón, storm is tormenta. The thing is, English does allow for the 'yo' in bagyo to be pronouced properly. Why be so narrow-minded and allow another colonial term to be used? The word bagyo on its own can be used in an English reference. We could start this trend today. Baguio is the Spanish pronounciation of bagyo. Typhoon is the English of bagyo. Baguio in English is the city... and en.Wikipedia is English-based, right? Obviously the English term, not the Spanish should be used. --Haldamir 01:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Please keep cool. I've sent an e-mail to dost-pagasa as seav suggested and will post the results. English has a lot of French words and spelling. We can agree that 'Baguio' is used in English articles about storms in the Philippines? Anyway, if need be, we can poll this. I feel a brief mention is needed as Baguio. At the Typhoons in the Philippines, it is already mentioned. By the way, Typhoon/tifón is an also an original Chinese(台風) and Greek word as well, so where did this come from?　Meaning languages are volatile and tend to influence each other. A brief mention of Baguio as a storm in Philippine context, would'nt hurt would it? --Jondel 01:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

>We could start this trend today.
Lets follow the prevailing mainstream trend and not create our own ok?--Jondel 01:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, just saw Jordz' contributions, and on the Tropical cyclone#Regional terminology, and he alleged that: "There are many regional names for tropical cyclones, including baguio in the Philippines and Taino in Haiti." So I made a google search: bagyong caloy vs. baguiong caloy. You be the judge. --Howard the Duck 03:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Based on AMS, I'm going to correct bagyo to baguio ok?--Jondel 04:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm with the duck. How come Taino redirects correctly and not Baguio? --Haldamir 07:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but since when did 'baguio' as a word for typhoon become mainstream? From your edit "...is the local term for typhoons and cyclones in the Philippines." I already called the local PAGASA office last week and they do not use it, hence it is not the local term. They use typhoon, tropical storm, and tropical depression for our bagyos. --Haldamir 07:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] From AMS

The American Meteorological Society Thank you seav, for the suggestion.--Jondel 04:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

baguio—(Also spelled bagio, vaguio, vario.) In the Philippine Islands, the name given to any severe tropical cyclone; derived from the city of Baguio, where a record 24-h rainfall of 46 inches occurred during the passage of a tropical cyclone in July 1911.

Jondel, this is horribly incorrect as I have pointed out to Jordz in the first instances of the 'baguio' entry. The city, Baguio, was named by the Americans in the late 1800s to the marsh plant that grew in the natural lagoon (now Burnham Park), the plant was called by the locals (the Ibalois) as 'bagiw' (there are many spellings pertaining to this plant but they are all phonetically similar, it is the Ibaloi word for 'moss'). The city was chartered in 1909, before the AMS citation of 1911. The AMS term is in contradiction to the Spanish (or French) use of the word as cited by Jordz since this was before the founding of the city. The Baguio name is akin to the naming of Manila from "may nilad'. Again, even before the founding of the city, Filipinos have used 'bagyo', the AMS may have incorrectly derived it from the city since they sounded similar. --Haldamir 07:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW: the American Metereological Society's Glossary of Metereology was only first published in the 1960s. --Haldamir 07:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, AMS is a source of meteorology, not the origin of words. --Howard the Duck 08:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From DOST / PAGASA and external links

  1. DOST - S&T Media Service: "Name A Bagyo Contest"
  2. A Language of the Philippines: Tagalog-English Dictionary (Hippocrene Books) - English entry for 'bagyo' is storm
  3. The Apocalyptic Riders - Typhoons in the Philippines - Wolfgang Bethgé 2003
  4. Tagalog Dictionary entry for 'bagyo'

Obviously, English sites and books use 'bagyo' freely, and coincidentally no 'baguio'. I'm now working to get an official statement from the PAGASA Baguio Bureau. Will upload scanned copy as soon as I get it. --Haldamir 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I've sent an e-mail to a professor of DOST-PAGASA. --Jondel 08:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The official statement would be very good, Haldamir, I think we can let them be the ones to decide.--Jondel 08:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, Baguio and Bagyo sounds identical. Now if another Philippine language spells bagyo as baguio, then I'm with baguio as a translation for tropical cyclone staying on the disambig page. If there is no case of any other Philippine language that spells bagyo as baguio then we should stick with bagyo. (Another case: I think we should update the Typhoons in the Philippines article). --Howard the Duck 00:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not a common English word and there is a standard English term for the exact same thing. Almost nobody would search the term 'baguio' when looking for tropical cyclones (even in the contect of the Philippines) in an English language encyclopedia. Even if another Philippine language spells it that way (doubtful) it is still not an English term for this concept. Polaron | Talk 00:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This e-mail doesn't work. ftdp@dost.gov.ph. I 'll be making changes according to the Poll below. --Jondel 08:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL

To other editors please feel free to place your vote. Don't remove this poll. I will be checking this poll once in a while and making changes based on the vote majority of these polls.--Jondel 08:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word to be used in English articles

Baguio not Bagyo, should be the English word, if ever, when referring to cyclones in the Philippines.

  • Neutral---Jondel 08:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Howard the Duck 08:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Haldamir 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose — not a term in common use in English. Most likely a neologism. --Polaron | Talk 00:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "bagyo" is not english. -- Saluyot 03:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. ditto on Polaron. --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. you may refer to what I presented above Jordz 13:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hey, if you can present me a dictionary that includes "baguio", and defines it as tropical cyclone, I'll withdraw my opposition. --Howard the Duck 14:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word in actual use in English articles

'Baguio' is the de facto English word, and used much more than 'Bagyo' when referring to cyclones in the Philippines. Please mention if you feel both are used.

  • Yes--Jondel 08:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No. --Howard the Duck 08:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No --Haldamir 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No - 'Bagyo' is simply the Tagalog word for tropical cyclone. There is a perfectly acceptable word in English that is unequivocably the same meaning. A Filipino living in other places would still call tropical cyclones as 'bagyo' in Tagalog. --Polaron | Talk 00:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No - 'bagyo' (assuming 'baguio') is also used by locals for torrential rain and rainstorms, even when there is technically no typhoon or tropical storm. --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • No --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes --historically, scientifically,and academically is used; no both are not used it's baguio alone, btw, locals don't use bagyo for torrential rains unless there really is one declared by PAGASA Jordz 13:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • So when there was no pag-asa yet, Filipinos called tropical cyclones napakahabang panahon na umuulan? --Howard the Duck 14:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mention both

Baguio and Bagyo should both be mentioned in the disambiguity page

  • Support---Jondel 08:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Howard the Duck 08:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Haldamir 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Polaron | Talk 00:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose --I'll stick to baguio Jordz 13:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mention only bagyo when referring to tropical cyclones

  • Support. --Howard the Duck 09:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support --Haldamir 10:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Mentioning 'bagyo' is not even necessary except possibly when listing what tropical cyclones are called in other languages. --Polaron | Talk 00:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support -- Saluyot 03:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Trivial. --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- because it's unrealistic, the language dynamics (e.g. spelling) is involved here. time will tell. Jordz
    • Again, if you present me anything that tells us indigenous Filipinos in local context use "baguio" and absolutely not bagyo when referring to tropical cyclones then i'll withdraw supporting this option. See this: bagyong caloy vs. baguiong caloy (btw, Caloy is the local name of Typhoon Chanchu (2006). --Howard the Duck 14:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where should Baguio redirect?

  • Baguio City
    • Support. --Howard the Duck 00:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support. But with a disambig or notice of other uses.--Jondel 01:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support -- Saluyot 03:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support. Mainstream use of 'Baguio' word should prevail -- Haldamir 04:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support. Baguio is baguio, even if the deriviation was based on the city name (as alleged by AMS). --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support --Polaron | Talk 14:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Baguio (disambiguation)
    • Support. Consider Baguio Villa--Jondel 01:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
      • That's why we have the disambig page. The most notable article would be the main article. We can always add a notice at the top "for other uses..." --Howard the Duck 01:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
        • OK, if we add that notice.--Jondel 01:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Support--that's why there is the disambiguation. baguio as a term will have more entries sooner or later OK, the notice must be added to Baguio City. Jordz
  • Tropical cyclone
  • Typhoons in the Philippines

[edit] Where should bagyo redirect?

  • Baguio City
  • Baguio (disambiguation)
  • Tropical cyclone
  • Typhoons in the Philippines
    • Support --Haldamir 04:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support --Gomi 05:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support --Jondel 08:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support --MPolo 11:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support - most likely people searching for 'bagyo' are looking for it in the context of the Philippines --Polaron | Talk 14:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Neutral Jordz
      • Why? Bagyo is a Tagalog word. --Howard the Duck 14:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove bagyo
    • Delete, this is English wikipedia ;) --Noypi380 01:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrus Baguio

If and when this article is created (he is a PBA player), I guess he merits mention in the disambig page too. But as of now, lets leave him out. --Howard the Duck 08:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any harm if he is mentioned. He is notable isn't he? --Jondel 08:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, he's a pro player, but he doesn't have an article yet, so I'd say lets him leave him out for the meantime. After all, a user would not get to know anything with a red link. But that's just my opinion. It wouldn't hurt if he's mentioned, anyway. --Howard the Duck 08:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
In many disambiguity pages there are many people mentioned without an article. Important enough tobriefly mention but no one wants to put the time to create the article like articles of names, etc.--Jondel 08:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, then I guess there'll be no harm done. :) --Howard the Duck 09:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes!--Jondel 09:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

Can it be removed now? --Howard the Duck 08:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup. I'll do it.