Talk:Baghdad Battery

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[edit] Discussion of Anachronism

I've moved out of the article the sentence

Some regard the Baghdad Battery as an anachronism, in the sense that the Baghdad Battery appears to be out of place in time.

I think everything after the comma is intended to define the term, not add to the meaning, but in any case, why are there disagreements about its anachronicity? Do those who so regard it think it is proof of a fraud? Of a time machine? Of extra-terrestrial technology? The writer of that sentence has something unstated in mind, but we need to know what, in order to use it. --Jerzy 07:33, 2003 Dec 9 (UTC)

[after the comma] ... it does help define the term, adding meaning (one less click)...
"Why are there disagreements about its anachronicity"? because many experts think that ancient people did not have electrical power ... they did though (primative though) ... the anachronicity is contested becuase of this ...
"Do those who so regard it think it is proof of a fraud"? fraud? yes (by many "skeptics") ... because it is a artifact that helps extend the idea that ancient people use electrical power ... most "standard" timelines don't have ancient people using power back then ...
"Of a time machine"? umm no (not IMO)...
"Of extra-terrestrial technology"? umm no (not IMO)...
"writer of that sentence has something unstated in mind"? what would that be? The line isn't part of any "agenda" other than stating facts ... imparticular that _ancient civilizations had electrical power_? that could be it ...
"need to know"? there you go ...
Sincerely, JDR
The ancient civilizations didn't have electric power per se, they had a device which happened to work because of electromotive force. There is a significant difference between the two. Even the greatest minds of the day didn't understand the electrical principles at work in the device, because the principles of how the device work weren't carried over into other areas of technology.
A better sentence might be:
Some people mistakenly regard the Baghdad Battery as an anachronism, believing that because ancient civilizations don't have electrical power, they therefore wouldn't have any device which operated on the principles of electric power.
This says clearly that it isn't an anachronism (and people who don't know what it is can click... that's what the link is for) and then goes on to further explain why it isn't an anachronism.
-- UtherSRG 16:39, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"The ancient civilizations didn't have electric power per se"? no .. they did have electric power ... (not a modern power system developed by Tesla, but the had primative power sources (whatever they called it may have been different ... it's the same principles) per se they didn't ... but really they did).
"they had a device which happened to work because of electromotive force" ... yes they did ....
"There is a significant difference between the two." ... no that's incorrect ...
"Even the greatest minds of the day didn't understand the electrical principles at work in the device" ... probably so (@least to our mathematicaly understanding )... but the principles are the SAME! ... if they constructed it, they had power (ie., would have had the energy) ... they would have observed the phenonomena ...
"the principles of how the device work weren't carried over into other areas of technology"? it's been proposed (from various artifacts and records) that it was used for various things .... one, lighting [primative cathrod ray tubes], and, two, electroplating ....
Another sentence? ok ... i think the removal of the "mistakenly" would be good though ... it is a bit confusing though ... because some do believe it is an anachronism (because of the belief that ancient civiliazation did not have power sources)
Your proposed sentences implies that it isn't an anachronism, which it is (i.e., not fitting in with classical view of history).
"people [..] can click", though it's not a big deal to put a bit of info here (this isn't paper) ... a more further explain and indepth treatment can go into the main article, that's what the link is for).
"why it isn't an anachronism"? but it is view by many as it is a anachronism. Are you trying to say that it isn't and shouldn't be treated as such? as most ppl (from my experiences) don't believe ancient civilization had power sources ...
Sincerely, JDR
After re-reading anachronism, I'm good with replacing the existing sentence with mine minus 'mistakenly'.
Re your line with if they constructed it, they had power: I disagree. Just because they constructed it, didn't mean they understood. But in this case...
CRTs? Cool! Write an article on it? :) - UtherSRG 17:53, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Did "they understand" it? They probably didn't understand it in the way most electrical engineers understand it (nor how ppl today see power) ... but they probably understood it in context to thier world (and called it a name in term of thier worldview) ... they did, in all likelyhood, understand that it could be used ...
CRTs? yea .... real primative ... I'm pretty sure you've seen it on cammericals (I've had a few time) ... it egyptian (a diagram is on the wall) ... and a reconstruction show that [if powered, by means such as a baghdad battery (among other sources)) it could have "lit" up ... I'm not sure what the name of it is though ...
BTW, I tried to merge in the suggestions ...
Sincerely, JDR

[edit] Dating, picture

Was the original discovery simply a reported event, or is there an actual artifact?

There is an actual artefact. In fact, about a dozen of them.

Has it been dated? How?

No. The date is pure speculation. No components of the devices are amenable to dating, and - according to Dr St John Simpson of the Near Eastern department of the British Museum - their context was not properly recorded. König thought they were Parthian because the village in which they were said to have been found was Parthian; the Parthian culture disappeared around the mid-3rd century AD. However the style of the pottery is Sassanian (224-640 AD). Given the relatively mild degree of corrosion of the iron rods (despite being the anode of electochemical couple!), one would think that latest possible plausible date would be the one to plump for, but oddly enough everyone goes for the earliest possible date that is vaguely supportable. Securiger 10:02, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Can we get a diagram for wikipedia? There are a lot of examples online to draw from. - Omegatron 15:52, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I have some real problems with this article, but rather than just being bold I thought I'd discuss them here first, since I'm sure some people will want to argue about it.

  • The article continually refers to "it". There were about a dozen of them found, not just one. (This may weakly support the view that they may have been galvanic cells, since replicas go flat very quickly.)
  • From the article: ...with a structure similar to that of a modern battery. This is a minor point, but we should point out that despite the name, they resemble a galvanic cell, not batteries (i.e. multiple cells joined together in series or parallel by paired conductors). This does become somewhat significant when you examine the plausibility of them having been used for electroplating.
  • From the article: It also appears that similar batteries can be located around ancient Egypt, where objects with traces of precious metal electroplating have been discovered at different locations. References, please. I can only find this claimed by unreferenced pseudo-archaeological sources which generally go on to claim that the Ancient Egyptians had electric lighting (with a 25 milliwatt maximum power output from these cells, and weighing a couple of kilos each, that is plain ridiculous). I am rather skeptical of this claim and unless a reference is found I will remove it.
  • From the article: In 1938, the German archaeologist Wilhelm König reportedly excavated the 130 mm (~5 inch) long clay jar in Khujut Rabu. While commonly stated, according to Dr St John Simpson of the Near Eastern department of the British Museum this is not true. König - who was an artist, not an archaeologist - merely wrote a paper speculating on the purpose of the devices after examining them in the museum while he was curator. In fact their original excavation appears not to have been recorded at all, or else the records have been lost.
  • From the article: Such ancient knowledge in the history of electricity ... What knowledge?
  • From the article: Subsequent tests found acidic residues in the original, analysed as an electrolytic solution, perhaps vinegar or wine.. What does this mean exactly? The "analysed as an electrolytic solution" doesn't make sense, I suppose it was meant to say something like "presumed to have been used as an electrolytic solution"? The reference to acid is a red herring; an electrolyte does not need to be acidic (although it may be), and as the acidic component of vinegar is volatile it could not possibly still be detected.
  • A fine example of Wikipedia at its schizophrenic best: and suggested electroplating precious metals as a practical use for early batteries by Baghdad Parthians, who used it to electroplate metallic items.. The same concept mentioned twice in one sentence, once as a speculation, once as a stated fact!!
  • I do not believe the electroplating theory is terribly well regarded today, even by those who accept that the devices are in fact galvanic cells. First and worst, there are no electroplated objects from Iraq for the entire period of interest; all such plated objects were plated with known techniques (either beating or mercury gilding). Some sources routinely quote König's 1938 claim that such objects existed, but König (who was not an archaeologist) was wrong. Secondly, it is easily demonstrated that these cells are far too feeble to be particularly useful for this purpose. Dr Arne Eggebrecht claimed to have achieved just a one micron thick layer of silver using a battery of "many" Baghdad cell replicas. However other scientists attempting to replicate the experiment say that his results were exaggerated and they could not even achieve that much. Such experiments also fall on the fact that no batteries or wires have been found, so we can really only justify a single cell, which is very feeble indeed. Further the village where the devices were found was not a metalworking site. The currently (sorry) preferred theory among those who accept that the devices are galvanic cells, is that some priest or healer discovered that he felt a tingle whilst stirring a vinegar-based potion in a copper bowl with an iron spatula, and exploited the idea to amaze people with mysterious electric tingles (too weak for real shocks). Paul Keyser has also suggested electro-acupuncture.
  • The article completely fails to mention that there is a substantial school of thought which doubts the whole idea. They have some fairly strong arguments:
    • Simple experiments demonstrate that the devices can be used as (very feeble) galvanic cells. It is a very long bow from there to claim that they actually were so used. For example, Thor Heyerdahl demonstrated that it was possible in principle for the Ancient Egyptians to sail to the Americas. But very few people believe they did so, because there is no evidence of Egyptian cultural influence in the Americas. Similarly, while the "Baghdad batteries" could in principle generate electricity, we would need to see some results of that before believeing that they actually did so. There are none; König's electroplated vessels were really misinterpreted mercury gilded vessels, and there is nothing else at all. No-one ever even wrote about it, and the process for which the current was used, if any, died out without a trace. Given that we actually have a great deal of information about what the Sassanids got up to, this is more than slightly odd.
    • As originally analysed by König, the copper cylinder is completely covered by the asphalt, preventing electrical contact to it, and thus making it useless as a battery. Diagrams of reconstructions invariably show a wire poking through the asphalt and contacting the cylinder, but it is important to note that none of the devices were found with such a wire, nor had a hole for it.
    • These objects very strongly resemble another type of object with a known purpose - namely, storage vessels for sacred scrolls from nearby Seleucia. Those vessels do not have the outermost clay jar, but are otherwise almost identical. Since it is claimed these vessels were exposed to the elements, it would not be at all surprising if any papyrus or parchment inside had completely rotted away, perhaps leaving a trace of slightly acidic organic residue.... 10:02, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright vio?

I have a copy of the G. Eggert sources ... and seem that someone lifted alot from that ...

Well, I used that as the basis for some of my research—and clearly credited him in the references section, for that very reason. However that doesn't constitute a copyvio unless I copied his exact words to a degree not permitted by fair use. I did not, in fact, copy his words at all, so there is no problem.
BTW, I am mostly quite happy with your recent edits, but the section "Comparisons" seems to rather miss the point. Yes, it's true voltaic piles were built much larger than "Baghdad batteries". The point is that Volta's rudimentary/nascent understanding of electrical theory enabled him to design such devices. The facts that stacking extra plates on a voltaic pile increases the voltage, and using wider plates gives a larger current is obvious to us today, brought up in an electrical world; but it took Volta to realise it, and when he did the science of electricity was born. Whoever made the Baghdad batteries, assuming they were in fact galvanic cells, evidently did not understand those principles, hence this is an argument against claims they developed an electrical theory. -- Securiger 19:07, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PICTURE!!! PICTURE!!!

If ever I saw an article dying for a pic, this is it. Draw one if you have to.

I've been looking for one for some time, both on-line and off-line. Problem is, the overwhelming majority that I have found are either modern "reproductions" or artist's impressions. In both cases they are based on the same verbal description we already have here, and clearly strongly contaminated by what the artists "think an ancient battery should look like". I have found just one (widely reproduced) photograph that purports to be a picture of an actual artefact, photographed in the Baghdad museum, but have been unable to verify if the picture is genuine. In any case, that picture is of a dismantled object, so showing how it was assembled would be more speculation. Given the large volume of misinformation spread about the topic, I'd far prefer we went without a picture rather than adding yet another probably inaccurate one. But if anyone can find a properly authenticated image, go for it! -- Securiger 05:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

is the license on this correct? I think not ... that is why it's moved here. J. D. Redding 17:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing NPOV

Hello,

I strongly feel that the article requires a Neutral Point of View amongst too many speculations and myths.
Further citations and assessment are suggested too.
Thanks.
Regards,

Harshal 16:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up this "skeptic" section

Clean up text and reinstert afterwards ...

The archaeologist König did not show what material might have joined the "batteries", and that among the thousands of archaeological objects found in Mesopotamia there was no metallic object transmitter of electrical current (as a wire of iron) long enough to link several of these "cells". König argued that the aim of these batteries was to provide the electricity needed to make galvanization with gold and silver (though so far not found any objects old galvanized). For Gray König there was nothing easier than to state that these containers were batteries. However, the hypothesis of the batteries is unsustainable: not found remains, even traces of any electrolyte within the cylinder of copper. If these containers were used as sources of tension, should have contained some electrolyte, which, although it had happened a long time ago, they would have been able to detect at present. Furthermore, the wire was found necessary to use the batteries.
The fact that by adding copper sulfate as electrolyte has created a potential difference of 1.5 V, does not necessarily mean they were used as batteries. The pile of Baghdad could have generated a maximum of 10 mA. Then to deposit 10 grams of gold theoretically would be required almost 6 days of continuous work (and 10 days to deposit 10 grams of silver). In practice this time can be doubled or trebled. If you add wine, vinegar or other acid, iron rod would disintegrate in a little over 1 year. But these rods have arrived until today, clearly shows that this was not utilized galvanic couples. Those who believe that this device was indeed a battery electric, described as oopart (acronym in English of out of place artifact: artifact misplaced). Skeptics on the other hand think that the pitcher only served to save scrolls and cosmetics.

J. D. Redding 15:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I've found the Eggert article, added a link, that should be useful but I don't have time right now.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I been working on this page a long time ... 3 edit from the beginning ...

I have alot of the articles onthis. Most of them are broken records on the subject.

... as to ....

... This is one of the better page without a full biased "skeptic" position. Skepticism is a POV. Please do not remove other sources and only load up on "septic" sources. Thanks. J. D. Redding 16:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A 'better page'? It fails under WP:RELIABLE WP:VERIFY and Wikipedia:No original research. The only thing new in this is:

And here comes some examples who has been taken from a technical publication named Shilpa-Sansar. Here a man with name Shri Parashuram Hari Thatte say following words about the electricity:'After that have placed a pert of pure copper in a vase of clay with a wide opening, there been put some coppervitriol on top of it. On top of that there been put a layer of sawdust and over that a block of zinc who was greased with quicksilver. Throw this assembling there come electricity who called Mitra. Even light cud be receive by this arrangement. A battery of one hundred pots was very effective' These Thatte, told that a method to gild or to silver surface of copper was made by electroplating. He also told that Agastyra invent these method and therefor received the title Kumbhadhava, who means ”the battery born” or Maitravaruna who means ”son of electricity”. Thatte was mean that this knowledge come from the time of Rama, 5000 years b.c.!

Even given a translation problem, this looks like nonsense - I can't find the 'technical publication', the 'man', Kumbdhadhava, and although I can find that Maitravaruna refers to a priest, that translation doesn't seem to exist. I've removed it twice and John Redding keeps replacing it and apparently didn't want to discuss it. The article itself is clearly unreferenced Original Research by Swedish UFO writer Anders Persson. John, would you please either justify this or remove it? Saying it is a 'better page' isn't enough and you are well aware of Wikipedia policies on this and from your Talk Page you just as clearly don't agree with them. But your POV on that doesn't matter. It's up to you to provide sources that represent your POV that meet Wikipedia standards, not me.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

John Redding? Who is that? This is J. D. Redding.

... Please do not remove the link. Itis of paranormal interest. The paranormal project can help you undersand this.

Do NOT push your POV. Thanks. J. D. Redding 16:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know why I wrote John. However, I am not pushing my POV, and the fact that it is of paranormal interest (even though the bit about the Baghdad battery doesn't mention the paranormal), doesn't matter. You aren't abler to and aren't even trying to justify its inclusion with anything specific about the article or Wikipedia policy. All you are doing is attacking me.--Doug Weller (talk) 17:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The website http://www.ufo.se/ is not a reliable source, this cannot be used as a citation in the article. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Reddi, I do not know what bee you have in your bonnet regarding "skeptics". However, this is Wikipedia. We have rules. If you establish notability for your material you may insist on inclusion. If you cannot do that, you have no case. The ufo.se website may be pertinent to topics of Ufology (I wouldn't know), but it is certainly completely irrelevant (WP:UNDUE) to topics of the Ancient Near East Late Antiquity. Thanks, dab (𒁳) 17:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Leyden jar comparison

The article is currently saying:

If correct, the artifacts would constitute a precedent to the Leyden jar...

A Leyden jar is a capacitor, its capacitance provided by an insulating layer of glass between conducting foils. If it were indeed a battery, the Baghdad Battery was just that, a battery, (strictly, an electrochemical cell). Was this what was intended by the article? — BillC talk 22:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed reference

This was used in the article and was removed ....

... as the case with most pseudoskeptics, anything associated with the ufology has been removed ... even though this page has nothing to do with that is is solely focused on the topic at hand. J. D. Redding 12:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

And your argument for including it seems to be a combination of insult and that you like it. The website doesn't meet Wikipedia standards, the article is original research gibberish with no references and citing people who don't seem to exist. I said that when I removed it. Even if it hadn't been on a UFO website it would still fail to meet WP:RS guidlines. It looks to me as though you are posting just to have a go at an editor you don't like rather than make an argument for its inclusion. If the material is genuine, find it in something that does meet guidelines. I couldn't find some of it anywhere.Doug Weller (talk) 13:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No .. this was used in making the article. As the case with some wikipedia activity, material that is used for an article's construction is removed.

Sad really ... as this was a decent web article on the subject.

Just becasue someone on wikipedia doesn't have access to a source it's removed ... lowest common denominator, which isn't good for keeping track of what is used for an article ... why have references when they are removed [btw, don't need to answer ... this isn't the first article this has happened to ... just the fate of some article because of ignorance and stupidity of some editors] ... J. D. Redding 13:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

More insults. You've got no source. I at least have checked JSTOR, etc, trying to find one. You've got no reason to think he didn't make it up, and that isn't good enough. Just because someone can write an article on the web doesn't mean they can be used as a source. Ok, you don't seem to care about Wikipedia policies and guidelines (which also call for editors to avoid personal insult, by the way), but others do. As I read a few minutes ago on another page, with 2.3 million articles Wikipedia needs more quality now, not quantity. IF there is anything in the article you'd seriously like a reference for I can probably provide it.--Doug Weller (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ha ... yah .. it's all made up ... that's kinda funny ...
You seem to be rather new at wikipeida ... I been editing here for quite awhile (four or five years) ...
I also did not refer to any specific editor, get a grip ... you are addressing me personally. My comments are in general.
Again, material that is used for article construction is removed.
Ignore all rules. Period. J. D. Redding 14:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see that you did what looks like the 3rd edit on the article. You've obviously worked hard at it, good for you (really). But that doesn't give you the right to insult people you don't agree with or to feel as possessive as you obviously do about the article. See WP:OWNERSHIP "

Some contributors feel very possessive about material (be it categories, templates, articles, images, essays, or portals) that they have contributed to this project. Some go so far as to defend them against all others. It is one thing to take an interest in an article that you maintain on your watchlist. Maybe you really are an expert or you just care about the topic. But if this watchfulness starts to become possessiveness, then you may be overdoing it. Believing that an article has an owner of this sort is a common mistake people make on Wikipedia. You cannot stop everyone in the world from editing "your" stuff, once you have posted it to Wikipedia. As each edit page clearly states: * If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it.

As I said, if you feel that be removing that I've left something without a reference, let me know what it is and I will see what I can do.Doug Weller (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Please don't lecture me on "ownership" ... that is used by many that don't have valid points many times ... J. D. Redding 14:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyvio

The text of the section Speculations on function#Nonelectrical is pretty much verbatim identical to the Non-Electrical Theory section of this source. That article is undated, but links back to this article; that article's author was clearly aware of some version of this page. They do, however, assert copyright, and several other articles in the same section do not exhibit the same pattern of matching (present) Wikipedia text. Can someone confirm which text is original? - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 16:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, the text here is definitely original. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 16:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that that site's Atlantis article looks the same as ours, I think he's copied some stuff from Wikipedia, I agree it isn't an issue here.Doug Weller (talk) 19:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)