Talk:Baden-Powell Scouts' Association

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Scouting Wiki Project Baden-Powell Scouts' Association is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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This article was the project's Portal collaboration of the month (May 2007).

Many thanks to the president and the members of the organisation for helping with this article

Contents

[edit] Cubs

Is that actually Wold cubs as shown in the article? Or should it be World cubs? 80.225.41.253 22:52, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is a Canadian Apologist who apears to be editing the US content. Each time a new entry is made, it appears the person does not understand the WIFS constitution which specially states WIFS does endorse any single national scouting body nor does it issue national charters as this would be taking the role of WOSM where only one form of scouting is recognised as the offical.

I think this is meant to say 'Wolf Cubs'. mspice2215 82.34.55.108 20:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] person

The new edits really need to be written as they instead of we. --Chris 04:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I left a message earlier for him on his talk page. I see you have done some of them. --Bduke 05:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australia

Was the introduction of baseball hats in Australia or the UK. That para had quite a bit that was UK not Australia and I have removed it. Is the movement in the UK affiliated to WFIS? In which case the movement in Australia is affiliated via the UK Branch. I've added a call for citations on both points. --Bduke 00:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] edit asked for by BPSA

Just recieved an answer fom BPSA and they asked me to make some changes. I'll include part of their statement, but I was asked not to give out the name, (e-mail) address and/or telephone numbers.

I hope you will look after the BPSA sites on Wikipedia for us. I have enclosed some information on Ireland and some information on BPSA UK (a message from the President of the Baden Powell Scouts). For the Baden Powell Scouts UK site – can you please remove details to the overseas branches – (United States, Canada and Austrailia) as a lot of this information is inaccurate and I have our international Commissioner working on writing up some information for you on this section. Currently two new websites are being made under my guidance to be unveiled in September. There has been a lot of work placed into them – the two sites will be www.traditionalscouting.ie for Ireland www.traditionalscouting.co.uk for UK Here is some information on BPSA Ireland & BPSA UK which I hope you will find answers all the questions, but if you have any further queries do contact me. Ireland History and details The Baden Powell Scouts Association of Ireland is Ireland's only Traditional Scout Association. We are not connected to any political or military organisation. We are an independent Scout Association, and are proud members of the World Federation of Independent Scouts. This is a World body that recognises Independent Scouts Associations in countries across the globe that teach Traditional Baden Powell Scouting values. Scouting is a system of education. According to our founder, The aim of Scouting is to improve the standard of our future citizens with the object of using that effiency for service for their fellow men. Traditional Scouting refers to the original principles set down in 'Scouting for Boys' written by Lord Robert Baden Powell, Chief Scout of the World. 'Tradition' is defined as 'knowledge transmitted from generation to generation' - In Scouting, once a Scout is invested Baden Powell believed they would continue to live to the 10 Scout Laws. These laws are kept by Scouts from the age of 10 to Adult Leaders who must renew their promise on regular occassions. The Baden Powell Scouts Association of Ireland hold the ideals of Scouting that were created by our founder. The history of our association dates back to the foundations of Scouting in the UK in 1908. Our Association used the same badge system, ranks and uniform that were worn by Scouts nearly 100 years ago. We follow a charter set down in our Policy Association Rules. We have no paid Executive Staff or Leaders. Troops in our Association believe that the original Scouting programme practised in BPSA Ireland is more exciting, fun, challenging and personally demanding. The traditonal programme also develops a sense of duty, personal discipline and honour. Some dont see these matters as important but we do! Our Scouts enjoy the traditional Scouting skills, lighting fire by friction, navigating by means other than a compass and backwoods cooking, like shown above. The World Organisation of Scout Movement only accept one member association per country and as such we are affiliated to the world wide family known as The World Federation of Independent Scouts. We are affiliated with many other Traditional Scout Association's around the world and proud members of the WFIS. BP Scouts of Ireland is not in competition with any other Scouting Association. We do not make claims to be superior, and we do not seek to influence the policies of any of the other Scout Associations. We have a policy of goodwill and co-operation with any Scouting organisation of like minded intent. (4th Scout Law). We are proud as an Association to be upholding Lord Baden-Powell's ideals, and his original programs, proving that his planning and foresight still holds true into the future. The Baden Powell Scouts of Ireland still hold to many of the early traditions of Scouting. The boys also still have great pride in their traditional uniform. We believe in Scouting as our founder envisaged, and it was from these ideals that a group of leaders, and Scouts came to form the BP Scouts of Ireland, having previously been known as the Independent Scout Organisation called The Christian Boy Scouts of Ireland. We invite all to discover the exciting programmes for youth recorded by our founder. While our association has tried to keep the values of 'Scouting for Boys' - our association has followed laws with regards to child protection. We have a chartered child protection policy for all our association and a child protection officer. BADEN POWELL SCOUTS UNITED KINGDOM – MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT Hello and welcome to the official website of the Baden Powell Scouts. The Baden Powell Scouts Association is an independent Scout Association with membership in the World Federation of Independent Scouts. The history of the Baden Powell Scouts Association dates back to the foundations of Scouting in 1907. In 2007 we will celebrate 100 years of Traditional Scouting. Over 60 years ago my army pal was so daft on scouting he roped me into the Cubs. I had no idea what I was letting myself in for and had no ideas of Cubs or Scouts. I have been involved in the Baden Powell Scouts since 1970. Without admitting my age I could be classed as the oldest active member in the association but as Baden Powell said “Scouting is a game with a purpose”. I have no decision to give up the game I love. I may be greying but I haven’t lost my hair or the love in teaching youth the values of Scouting. My fondest days of being involved in BP Scouting have been my 50th year when I took my Scout Troop the 1st Yorkshire BP Scouts to Canada for a month. The Patrol Leader's of the troop were so good the following year I took them on a Tour of the USA and later to South Africa. On the 27th May 2007 I shall have completed 60 years as a Warranted Scouter having started by forming a Cub and Scout Group in 1947 in Wuppertal Germany with all German boys! I have yet to decide what I shall do for the 60th year as a Scouter! But I know it will be something to remember as will 2007 the 100th year of Traditional Scouting. We have kept to our values in educating the youth of the values of Scouting that our founder Baden Powell envisaged. Traditional is not old fashioned, Traditional Scouting is quality Scouting. Though I’m still an active Scout I know the future of Scouting and Baden Powell Scouting is in the Leaders of today and the Scouts who we teach who I hope will become the Leaders of tomorrow. Thanks for visiting the site. If you are considering joining Scouts I hope this is your first step into the wonderful game, and I hope to hear from you soon. Lawrie Dring, President of the Baden Powell Scouts Association I am the IT officer for the Baden Powell Scouts. Could you explain to me - hopefully more broken down about Wikipedia. I understand its an online encyclopedia that visitors can edit? I notice for both BPSA - UK and Baden Powell Scouts of Ireland, the details are very sketchy and I don't know who gave Wikipedia permission for the Baden Powell Scouts Association. I would like to take control of the Baden Powell Scouts of Ireland and maintain that it is accurate. By agreeing to a contract are we in control of the information?

Jorgenpfhartogs 04:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] another edit

Just added some more edits that will not offend any of the organisations. the BPSA and BPSA Ireland are both members of WFIS – In fact Lawrie Dring the president of BPSA is one of the founding fathers of the WFIS in Laubach Germany.As for the overseas branches I will get information to you hopefully by the end of the week.Just a couple of things on the BPSA site on Wikipedia:The organisation shares the heritage of the youth Scouting Movement, but was formed in the United Kingdom in 1970 when it was felt that the "modernisation" of the Scout Movement was abandoning the traditions and intentions established by Lord Baden-Powell in 1907. The Baden-Powell Scouts retain the belief that essence of the movement should be based on outdoor activities related to the skills of explorers, backwoodsmen and frontiersmen.Yes all this paragraph is true – but can we change this and just leave it as The organisation shares the heritage of the youth Scouting Movement, in the UK and next year will cellebrate 100 years of Scouting.We just think time and time again this remark of what is now deemed as history of 1970 brings up politics in Scouting in the present.I understand the sites must be neutral but I think those adjustments are fair comment. At times Jorgen we have been described as a “splinter group of SA” or in Ireland we are a “splinter group of SI” – which is clearly not the case. Were simply an independent traditional scouting movement that is moving forward and looking forward to what to do for the next 100 years!Despite the name, BPSA was never sanctioned by Baden-Powell himself. In fact, while he was alive, he always objected to national associations using his name in their denomination (he only allowed one exception to this rule), and strongly opposed any similar association not linked to his own (see his relationship with Sir Francis Vane).Yes it was never sanctioned by BP himself as he wasn’t alive =P but the association did get permission to use his name from a familly member who strongly supported the Baden Powell Scouts. I shall get yoou further information on this also (I have the details I just want to make sure they are correct!) But in the 70’s the name was approved by a family member.

Jorgenpfhartogs 08:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] message from the BPSA president

BADEN POWELL SCOUTS UNITED KINGDOM – MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT

Hello and welcome to the official website of the Baden Powell Scouts. The Baden Powell Scouts Association is an independent Scout Association with membership in the World Federation of Independent Scouts.

The history of the Baden Powell Scouts Association dates back to the foundations of Scouting in 1907. In 2007 we will celebrate 100 years of Traditional Scouting.

Over 60 years ago my army pal was so daft on scouting he roped me into the Cubs. I had no idea what I was letting myself in for and had no ideas of Cubs or Scouts.

I have been involved in the Baden Powell Scouts since 1970. Without admitting my age I could be classed as the oldest active member in the association but as Baden Powell said “Scouting is a game with a purpose”. I have no decision to give up the game I love. I may be greying but I haven’t lost my hair or the love in teaching youth the values of Scouting.

My fondest days of being involved in BP Scouting have been my 50th year when I took my Scout Troop the 1st Yorkshire BP Scouts to Canada for a month. The Patrol Leader's of the troop were so good the following year I took them on a Tour of the USA and later to South Africa.

On the 27th May 2007 I shall have completed 60 years as a Warranted Scouter having started by forming a Cub and Scout Group in 1947 in Wuppertal Germany with all German boys!

I have yet to decide what I shall do for the 60th year as a Scouter! But I know it will be something to remember as will 2007 the 100th year of Traditional Scouting.

We have kept to our values in educating the youth of the values of Scouting that our founder Baden Powell envisaged. Traditional is not old fashioned, Traditional Scouting is quality Scouting.

Though I’m still an active Scout I know the future of Scouting and Baden Powell Scouting is in the Leaders of today and the Scouts who we teach who I hope will become the Leaders of tomorrow.

Thanks for visiting the site. If you are considering joining Scouts I hope this is your first step into the wonderful game, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Lawrie Dring,

President of the Baden Powell Scouts Association

Jorgenpfhartogs 08:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question by BPSA

I've also been asked by the BPSA to forward further questions to them. I can give out the e-mail address for the IT-officer which is rachel@badenpowellscoutsireland.com. He (not a she) is IT officer and main point for communication for BPSA UK and Ireland. Jorgenpfhartogs 08:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an advertising forum for outside organizations. While I think an outside organization providing input is okay to a point and I think some of these changes actually made are fine, I think others are too POV and look like advertising. I'd also suggest stop forwarding questions to them unless there is a real need for clarification. It sounds to me like they're trying to control wikipedia's content.Rlevse 11:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of Ireland

Unless the Ireland article can be made into high-end B-class article or above and have a good share of content different from the BPS article, I'd merge these.Rlevse 12:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree now. It seems like BPSA is almost exclusively actie in UK, Ireland, US, Canada and Australia with BPSA UK and Ireland more or less being the same I suggest one article for BPSA with subsections for UK, Ireland, US, Canada and Australia.

Jorgenpfhartogs 12:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal

You have the portal tag in two places, it should only be in one. Per the portal template policy, it should be in see also, but if you really want it at the top, I personally don't care. Rlevse 20:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've edited it and will leave it in See also. I'll add Canada and US later. The article on BPSA Ireland can be deleted since all info is alreay here. Can you tell me how to mark it for deletion?

Jorgenpfhartogs 20:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

put this at the top of the main article page (but use no spaces except in the reason as if I do that here, it'll mark this page for deletion): { db | reason for deletion }
or, use #REDIRECT [[Baden-Powell Scouts]], as I did there. Chris 21:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Chris and Rlevse, thank you both for your help. I hope the article is up to standard now.

Please let me know if you want something edited. Canada, Argentina and US will added soon. Jorgenpfhartogs 22:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review

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[edit] Sanction

Which independent sources do we have to support the claim that at least one family member of B.-P. encouraged them to use their family name? --Lou Crazy 04:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'd also like to know a name/date. Banaticus 06:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I think I'll remove that claim if there is no source support for it, then --Lou Crazy 02:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OK with me. Rlevse 09:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the statement reappeared... --Lou Crazy (talk) 02:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Membership

i see that BPSA seem very keen to push themselves and help, have they been forthcoming with membership figures? I haven't seen any in the article... Stevecull 21:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Activity in Australia

The Australia BPSA web page has the national organiser down as the contact for Western Australia, Victoria, Tasmania and the Northern Territory. It does not therefore look as if they are active in all those States and Territories so the statement in the article that they are needs a proper source. Also the contact for the ACT is the same as that for New South Wales, so activity in the ACT and NSW needs sourcing also. --Bduke 23:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] United States

This article has the category Scouting in the United States, however, the United States is not mentioned in the article. --Jagz 17:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly stuff to add. See the mention of "1st Tarrant Group, Fort Worth" in Scout Promise. However, I think someone in Fort Worth needs to check it is is still active. --Bduke 22:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

No mention is made of past controversy involving the BPSA which nearly brought about it's demise during the 1990's and certainly ruined the reputation of the organisation when a number of leaders were jailed for paeodpohile activities, what made this more extraordinary was the number of leaders versus the number of BPSA Scout groups at the time which made it seem as if the whole organisation was riddled with this type of individual. I looked at this organisation very closely as an alternative to my current membership of the 'official' Scout Association as an Assistant Cub Scout Leader and stumbled across this information by accident when my search engine threw up a past newpaper report, I withdrew any interest in the organisation because of it. Perhaps mention should be made with reassurances that the issue has been dealt with properly?

Mspice2215 21:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably because we don't know the facts of the issue. If you do, and can source it, please add it.Rlevse 21:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The broad problem is mentioned here and I think the main problem is covered here. I believe that the Group was the 22nd Waltham Forest B-P Scout Group. --Bduke 00:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Bduke may have provided the answer and reference sources required, I certainly recognise the first of the two articles, as I'm fairly new to Wikipedia I wouldn't know how to update the main article, perhaps someone with more experience would oblige? Mspice2215 82.34.55.108 14:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)82.34.55.108 19:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that we do not have a reference that talks about the impact of these events on the BP Scouts in the UK. I do recall something along those lines, but I searched hard and could not find it. I think we need such a source before anything is added to the article. It is the "nearly brought about it's demise during the 1990's and certainly ruined the reputation of the organisation" that needs sourcing. --Bduke 23:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This is what I have found on the the Internet archive: www.badenpowellscouts.org.uk/about/faq.htm#safe www.webpages.free-online.co.uk/abuse/bpsa.htm .--Egel Reaction? 08:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be interesting to have a comment from a current member of this organisation on this very serious point. Mspice2215

82.34.55.108 14:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

"Despite the gains within this World organisation [World Federation of Independat Scouts (WFIS)], a series of scandals involving sexual offences against young people tarnished the reputation of the Baden-Powell Scouts Association in England with the jailing of a number of leaders in 1987, and 1999 for paedophile offences. This caused a severe decline in Troop numbers to circa 40 Troops in 2001. Although such as the main Association in England, has not entirely been free from such events, the very scale of those involved in comparison to the small UK membership is a cause of concern."

Above uplifted from the Scout History Association website (www.netpages.freeonline.co.uk/sha/isa.htm). This may back up my earlier comments about ruining the reputation of the organisation etc. mspice2215 82.34.55.108 (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of adding a short paragraph to the main article concerning the above, if anyone feels that it should not be there then please feel free to remove it.

Also it may be nice to have some idea of how many BPSA groups are active in the UK. Mspice2215 (talk) 14:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is an issue to do with a small number of individuals in the UK placed at the top of the article and not in the section relating to the UK? Also, accepting the fact that this bit of history might be of interest, why is there not a similar section noting criminals who have previously infiltrated The Scout Association, schools and other youth organisations? I'd hate to imagine that the spirit of Wikipedia is being abused by people with an agenda, but am starting to wonder... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.18.124 (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the point is that this incident of a small number of individuals had an large impact on what is a very small organisation. It is near the top because of its impact on the BPSA generally as it was founded in the UK. I think it is written in a careful enough way and well sourced. If you do not agree, discuss improvements here. To be NPOV we can not just delete controversy that makes the organisation look bad. --Bduke (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not asking for a deletion, just a bit of impartiality in the editing of the content. This issue took place in the UK, and, as this page now caters for all international sections of the B-PSA, it should be in the UK section. My edit, not a deletion, placed it in the appropriate section, under a sub-heading which, if anything, helped it stand out. My only deletion was the comment comparing the B-PSA child protection policy to the "Yellow Card" which is, in my opinion, a pointless comparison. I'm sure it's like many other organisation's child protection policies, so why is this comment required? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.18.124 (talk) 06:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I can see your point. I wish there were other editors prepared to comment. It is my impression, but I do not have a source for it, that these incidents in the UK, were noted here in Australia and perhaps elsewhere, and as a result influenced membership here. I think the comment should say it was UK leaders, so I'll add that. Please sign your talk page comments with ~~~~. Also why not register for an account here? --Bduke (talk) 06:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's better - but I still think that this should be in the section on the UK. Although carefully written now, and pointing out in passing that other organisations have had problems equal to, or worse than, this, I cannot see that this belongs in the opening section on the Association any more than The Scout Association's opening section ought to record that the suspected-paedophile and mass-murderer Thomas Watt Hamilton was one of the criminals to have infiltrated their leadership in the past. Using the justification used by several people in this thread, unless there is evidence that this did cause international membership issues, the fact that it may have done should not be used to justify it being where it is! ;P 87.82.18.124 (talk) 12:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Adding Hamilton to the Scout Association would be giving undue weight to it. but the incidents we are talking about were highly significant in the BPSA in the country where it was founded. I still think it is is best where it is, but if you want to shift it, go ahead. That might at least bring in another editor to think about it. --Bduke (talk) 23:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have done so and will wait to see what happens. I would use the same argument that you mention about undue emphasis relating to having that paragraph about a 10 year old incident in the opening section of this article, especially now that it is for the whole global B-PSA rather than just the UK section and, as you say, the event was "significant in the BPSA in the country where it was founded". 87.82.18.124 (talk) 08:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

As the originator of this particular thread I should perhaps explain that my intention was to draw attention to this issue which 'yes' happened well over 10 years ago but stood out in view of the fact that although the numbers of leaders involved at the time was no greater than the numbers in the 'offical' Scout Association in the UK, when you take into consideration the number of active groups at the time versus the number of leaders involved, it seemed that the organisation had been well and truly infiltrated by this type of individual. This also severely reduced the number of BPSA groups in the UK and it doesn't semm that they have ever recovered from this. Therefore I felt that it's significance is of huge importance to the BPSA and I shouldn't be ignored or glossed over.

I am a member of the Scout Association in the UK and through disillusionment with what I have seen as a fall in standards, a general 'dumbing' down of the movement and erosion of traditions I began to explore alternatives and looked at the BPSA very closely, I only stumbled upon this information by accident and at the time I withdrew my interest. I agree with previous comments about where it should feature in the article and have no problems with this.

I'm not anti the BPSA in any way and retain an open mind, I feel sure that they have got on top of the problem and ensure that new and current leaders are thoroughly vetted. We have no comment from a representative of the BPSA, it would be good to see something from them which could be added to the article.

Keep on smilin' mspice2215 82.34.55.108 (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, mspice2215. I'm a former TSA leader, now with the B-PSA having made the jump for many of the reasons you have stated, plus other issues relating to TSA child protection. I will not list the issues on here, though, in the spirit of the 4th Law! :)

I'm happy that you are not anti-B-PSA, and agree that mention of the issue should be retained as it was pretty key at the time. I'm sure that the majority of people on here are the same as you, but sadly a few other TSA / WOSM contributors appear to be, shall I say, a bit more partisan in their attitudes?

Obviously I cannot speak for the whole B-PSA any more than a TSA Scouter can talk for the whole TSA, but I'm happy to do research and add detail where needed as a Wikipedian. I can certainly assure you that the problems experienced by the B-PSA seem to have been dealt with as effectively as possible. Sadly nobody can ever be certain that those types of people won't find some way in - as TSA, B-PSA, schools and most youth organisations have discovered.

Yours In Scouting, DiverScout 21:30, 19 May 2008


You're quite right, these people will always find a way in some how but the main thing is that the correct steps are taken to try and discourage them, I'm not saying that current measures are fool proof but they go along way toward alleviating the problem. mspice221582.34.55.108 (talk) 13:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


Now it is a lot easier, of course, but it still happens even with the protection and support now available. The issues in the B-PSA happened before CRB checks were available - in fact they partly led to the launch the of CRB under the 1997 Police Act. Back then it was almost impossible for small organisations to check against people's records in the UK, and TSA had refused to share the child protection information that they had.

As you say, hopefully things have moved on since then... DiverScout 22:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edit

I have made a small edit to the main article to say that the BPSA is not a historical re-creation society, I feel that it is important to make that distinction.

Also the bit at the beginning where it says that the association was formed with the apporval of the Baden-Powell family I feel should state which members (I don't know myself). B.-P. himself never agreed that the Scout Movement (in whatever form it appears) should make use of his name in the title.

Finally - sorry to be picky - but I've re-worded the paragraph a little concerning the jailing of leaders in the 1990's, I didn't feel it quite got the message I intended across correctly in that because of the ratios of leaders vs the smaller number of groups the impression was that the whole organisation was riddled with that type of individual, I felt that the paragraph was saying that the organisation was riddled, I feel that should be made clear so as not to offend those decent leaders out there who were and still are doing a wonderful job.

Small points I know but I think this should be made clear.

Again if anyone disagrees or has better information than me please feel free to edit. Mspice2215 (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I reverted some of these changes before I read this. We are not about not offending people or giving impressions. All of these are against our neutral point of view policy. Even the current wording is iffy. We should just state the fact suppoorted by sources. I have just gone back and removed another sentence that is really POV also. The first sentence of that paragraph needs a source. --Bduke (talk) 22:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that's fine - just state the facts and leave it at that - I don't have a lot of experience with Wikipedia, I'll leave it to those who know better, I've also added a ref source for the first line but I don't know how to turn it into a link, as I said before if people aren't happy with what I've added then I've no issues with it being removed. Mspice2215 (talk) 23:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)P

I have linked them as references, but the first one goes nowhere. Have I got it wrong? --Bduke (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just tried it myself with the same result - it should go to the Scout History Association where I lifted my quote detailed above in the 'controversy' section. If it doesn't work then remove it by all means. Mspice2215 (talk) 07:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

PS - I'm not a member of the BPSA before anyone gets the wrong impression of me :-) Mspice2215 (talk) 23:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Another minor edit

I note that source number 5, used in the "Controversy" section, appears to be highly bias against Independent Scouting. It was last updated in 2002 and expires in January 2009. I suggest that this article is removed from the References section. External referencing is already provided through the Scout History Association page.

I also question whether the short paragraph stating "The Scouting movement has had many schisms since its inception and B-P was careful to state that he did not want to see lots of different organisations at the expense of Scouting in general." should be in the introductory paragraph for the Association. This comment would, I feel, be better on the Traditional Scouting page as it is a general comment and does not refer directly to the B-PSA. -- DiverScout (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Does the source verify the content? If not, then find a new source. The dates are not an issue, the site may get renewed; if not, it is archived.[1] I do think you are right on the B-P paragraph- I don't see the context here. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 22:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheers. I will move the out-of-context B-P paragraph into Traditional Scouting. The web site is one of two sites being used to source the Controversy article, and it is the questionable nature of using a personal POV web page which worries me a bit, rather than the age of the page. The SHA page provides enough information, in an NPOV manner, to verify the content. -- DiverScout (talk) 17:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah- I followed the wrong reference- no wonder I was confused. I agree- this is a blog-like page where it looks like the author is attempting to show various Scout groups in a certain light. As usual with these types of articles, there is no context with other groups. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Proper article name should be "Baden-Powell Scouts' Association" --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but this was the title I inherited! If anyone want to move it over it would be appreciated. -- DiverScout (talk) 22:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Done. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)