Talk:B-2 Spirit/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Work needed 2 aircraft cost 3 dangerous gasoline 4 Comment on Specs Section Photo 5 Name of B-2s ? 6 Second paragraph confusing. 7 NPOV 8 Range? 9 Naming vs First Plane Delivered 10 Aircraft design 11 Rate of climb 12 Contrary statement 13 B-2 antigravity speculation removed 14 Removed statement about B-2 Spirit of Missouri being shot down in 1999 15 Removed statement about B-2 withdrawal from Kosovo operation due to F-117A shootdown 16 Not stealthy when wet? 17 Weapons update 18 Other 19 "Informal names" 20 Removed information about the B2 being tracked at british airshow 21 Where's the source for the specs? 22 Possible photo for article 23 UFOs and the B-2 24 List of B-2 Bombers 25 governor quote 26 Photographs 27 External Links 28 nm or nmi 29 Wingweb.co.uk

Work needed

Having been originally copied from [1], this article reads a bit much like a press release. Could probably use some work to tone it down. -- nknight 15:00 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah indeed this article is awful! Chinaren.com 22:36, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Be Bold. How about helping improve things yourself? Making language less press-release like doesn't even require much research. It should be easy to search for other B-2 material in order to gt a more balanced view pretty easily. You're a Wikipedia editor just like everyone else ... the easiest way to fix a page is to fix it. —Morven 00:55, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Uh...why was this page moved? RADICALBENDER★ 02:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I moved it because it is better known as the B-2 Bomber than the B-2 Spirit.

Whitfield Larrabee

Er, no. The official name is B-2 Spirit. B-2 Bomber can redirect to B-2 Spirit. [[User:RadicalBender|R<sm

"This aircraft was mainly built to be used in a Nuclear War, not peacetime."

Isn't this a tautology? A combat aircraft like a bomber, by definition, is only employed in a war setting.

---

I found the third paragraph of the Combat section confusing. Does this just state that the plane only needs refueling without other maintenance between missions? Is this different from other planes? ArrowmanCoder 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, it refers to the fact that the B-2 is based exclusively in the continental U.S., and that Operations at Diego Garcia marked the first time that the aircraft had staged from elsewhere. It's also impressive to think that the aircraft flew from the U.S. to afganistan, dropped bombs, and then flew down to the Indian Ocean. -Lommer | ^talk 22:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

aircraft cost

this page used to list the cost of the aircraft based on total project cost / total planes produced. I didn't spot any cost information this time (not that I looked very hard), but does anyone have a value for what it would cost to actually build a single plane excluding R&D costs?

I think that's probably classified (or not even calculated). But if anyone else has sources... -Lommer | ^talk 17:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Northrop marketing propaganda in the early 90's said roughly $800M if I recall correctly. There was a move afoot at the time to get more B-2s built after George H W Bush basically cancelled the program in his "New World Order" State of the Union speech in January 1991, so these numbers were trotted out to counter the $44.4B (total cost of the program)/20 aircraft math that was being used to criticize the program.--Alanz01 16:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the statement "Some writers have suggested that the huge program cost may actually include costs for other black projects that remain classified" is not properly sourced. It should be deleted if not properly sourced. Also, if some writers have said this without any substantial source for their claims, it should not be in the article because it lacks any substantiation. One could make the same claim about any governmental expenditure. I published an article on the B-2 several years ago and I never came across any claims that part of the disclosed cost was attributable to other black programs. Whitfield Larrabee 04:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me how information contained in the reference for the cost: [2], justifies the $2.2bn figure? Or provide a different reference? Breadandroses 19:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

dangerous gasoline

Is it true the B-2 spirit is fueled with a special gasoline that is highly dangerous to humans? --Abdull 18:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

No, it uses standard JP-4 or JP-8. The fuel you're thinking of is probably hydrazine, a very poisonous fuel that its auxiliary power unit (a small engine in the aircraft used to power the B-2's various systems when the engines are off and there is no external power available) uses. Hydrazine is used in other aircraft's APUs as well, so the B-2 is not unique in this regard.--Alanz01 16:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment on Specs Section Photo

The image of the B-2 dropping the large number of bombs in the specs section is an 80 weapon drop Mk82 flight test bomb run performed over the Pacific Ocean off Pt Mugu in 1994.

Name of B-2s ?

B-2s are all named "Spirit of (state)". When was this practice adopted? If original 135 were made, there wouldn't be enough states to be named and reduced 75 is still more than the number of states. -- Revth 00:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Although the number of B-2's was reduced to 75, the number was further reduced to 21, if the article here is correct, solving the issue of the number of states. Although surely if the original 135, or later the 75, were made then this system of names would be changed.--The1exile 17:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't remember when that policy was implemented but it was certainly after the final buy reduction decision. I do know they were named after states that had major players in the B-2 program - California (Northrop), Washington (Boeing), Missouri (Whiteman AFB) and for example the home state of the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (Georgia) and other such criteria.--Alanz01 20:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Either the List of names is incorrect, or this statement is incorrect. As the last time I checked there is no state of "Kitty Hawk"... I do not know which is incorrect, but would hope some who does would correct this.

It's an exception to the rule - sort of like the naming of the "USS Hyman G. Rickover", when the "Los Angeles"-class submarines are nearly exclusively named for cities. There are lots of these... --SebastianP 20:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Spirit of Oklahoma nicknamed the Spirit of San Francisco? Is it really nicknamed that or is it an error? 205.174.22.28 01:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph confusing.

I have issues with the second paragraph. It starts off claiming:

Originally designed to deliver nuclear weapons during the Cold War [3], support for the B-2 dwindled as military spending declined in real dollars during the Clinton Administration.

but then:

The original procurement of 135 aircraft was later reduced to 75 in the late 1980s. Finally, President George H. W. Bush reduced the final buy quantity to the 21 already bought in his now famous "New World Order" State of the Union speech in January, 1991.

which contradicts it: if the numbers were dropped to 21 by Bush I, this was before the Clinton Administration.

Then it says:

In May of 1995, in a study commissioned by Congress, the Institute For Defense Analysis concluded that after the demise of the Soviet Union, there was no need for more B-2s. As a result of public outcry over its cost, opposition from the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff and increasing opposition in the U.S. Congress, only 21 B-2s have been produced instead of a total of 135 planes as had been proposed.

Yet the previous sentences stated that Bush I kept the numbers down to 21; no further cuts were made.

Finally, the next sentence:

Given that much of the cost of the B-2 was in research and development, the cost per unit would have been much lower if all 135 had been produced.

seems to reference an original unit cost figure which the article previously contained? Without that figure, this sentence lacks context.

I'm not expert enough on the topic to reconcile the differences easily: anyone more knowledgable who can bash this into a coherent and truthful shape? —Matthew Brown (T:C) 21:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It's confusing but not necessarily contradictory. George H W Bush did reduce the buy to 21 aircraft. However, for several years after that (into the Clinton Administration) Northrop and a Seattle-area Congressional Representative lobbied to get authorization for an additional 20 or so aircraft approved by Congress. The were unsuccessful since the B-2's support was flagging both in the USAF and in Congress by then. I seem to recall that the DoD was not interested at all in buying more B-2s; they'd moved on to JSF and F-22s by then.--Alanz01 22:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I recall the same chronology as Alanz01. N-G had a big drive for employees to write their representatives, etc to increase the number up from 21. There may have been action from the employee PAC (yes, N-G had/has a Political Action Committee on behalf of its employees in addition to its own lobbying). --KNHaw 19:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article was originally copied from a US military website and in parts still reads like it ("The B-2 can bring massive firepower to bear anywhere on the globe." .. "Its low-observable, or "stealth," characteristics give it the ability to penetrate an enemy's most sophisticated defenses and threaten its most valued, and heavily defended, targets.") It needs some tender, loving NPOV editing and some additional sources.--Eloquence* 14:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I worked on the B-2 program for about 10 years [ 1982-92] as an Engineer in the manufacturing side - and retired from Boeing in 1995. I've noted that most all discussions as to program cost -or cost per plane- do not take into account the tremendous extra costs involved in security constraints. When mixed in with the 'write -off' of tooling and normal start up costs of any aiframe, the distortion makes good press for the "" $$5000/per toilet seat "" "hyperbole types, but adds nothing but smoke to the few real facts that are available. Trying to compare the resultant B-2 airframe costs to a commercial airframe cost structure is an exercise in futility. So lets back up a bit and consider the expected cost **savings ** involved which, if one looks carefully were publicized in the late 1980's when the program came out of the black world. Examples include 1) not having to have xx support aircraft per bomber force to take out missle defenses before sending in the bombers. 2 ) By reducing the number of 'support' aircraft and their tankers, logistics, etc, the cost of a bomb-missile on target is significantly reduced over the LIFE of the bomber and especially during training missions, etc. But back to 'production' costs which, when stripped of the security costs, and based on amortizing the tooling costs over say 120 aircraft AND a chance to come way down a classic learning curve, would probably come out to be only about 2 to 3 times that of a comparable weight commercial aircraft airframe. Yes the 'development' costs of using composites in a major structure WAS high, but the long term maintenace costs of the airframe were reduced- compared to its 'aluminum/titanium ' counterparts. Yes the costs of maintaining the Stealth characteristics is expensive- but that is a unique military cost- and its costs should be applied to the ' force reduction ' portion of the equation. Just what those split/relative percentage costs are I do not know and are probably still classified. I think it is sufficient to say that the unique-military and security costs probably amounted to the MAJORITY of the widely touted 'program' costs used to assign the x billion/plane numbers. As time progresses, I'll try to add some of the publicly available facts/handouts I've stashed away which will be more specific. Don Shuper 08:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC) UPDATE MARCH282006 RE B-2 COSTS- Here is an short extract that sums up the cost issues on the B-2. It was found in an excellenta series of articles in the recent issue of Aviation WEEK March 27,2006 The cover listed as ' The B-2 dividend" and internally as "Legacy of B-2 Bomber Innovations Apparent in J-UCAS and Other Programs By William B. Scott" found at http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/032706p1.xml

" During the Cold War, weapon system performance was given top priority, trumping cost considerations. Whatever resources were deemed necessary to meet national security goals, they were made available, despite the cost. "We kept a top-10 list of [B-2 concerns] on the briefing-room wall," Myers recalls. "We were seven years into the program before 'cost' made that list." But those days are gone. "I'm not sure we'll ever see another program like that again," he adds." [Albert F. Myers, Northrop Grumman's corporate vice president for strategy and technology.Myers joined Northrop Corp. in 1981 as manager of B-2 flight controls engineering, and later served as chief project engineer, then deputy program manager and vice president of test operations. ] "

I'd suggest that the above quote and referenced appropriately would be appropriate for inclusion into the basic discussion/history of the B-2 program.

Thanks for finding that AW&ST article. It has several items that might benefit the Wikipedia B-2 article. Above quote is interesting, but there are already so many cost-related statements in this Wikipedia article that it feels unbalanced. By comparison see the more balanced articles on F-117 and SR-71. I like the above quote, but just adding it to the article as currently written seems problematic. If the article was restructured it might fit better. I'll try to do that and incorporate the above quote. Joema 11:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Another minor correction - the article claims "An additional cost driver was that the mission was changed in 1985 from a high altitude bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber, which required a major redesign"

While it was no doubt a cost driver - the low altitude mission change was anticipated and the essential structural related changes were well underway BY 1985. I believe 1982-83 would be a better date for a mission change.

Side note - There shoul be an old av week report around somewhere that describes the most recent irag ' war' and the use of the B-2 which described the 'gotcha' regarding initial deployment that most missed. because of the high commercial air traffic across the atlantic- and the need to maintain secrecy- the initial trips wound up reguiring the b2 to fly at about 20,000 feet-well BELOW all commercial flight lanes. This in turn required more tanking due to the higher fuel consumption, etc. -" best laid plans of mice -men- and military planners aft gang aglay "

The prime directive of an encyclopedia is simply describe the topic. Yet most of this first section pontificates on the project cost. A reader could go away knowing little about the topic except it's allegedly costly. That is a failure of the main mission of an encyclopedia -- to describe the topic. The topic is not titled "controversy of B-2 cost". If someone wants to write a separate article on that, feel free.

An example to help illustrate. Look at Project Apollo. It cost far more than the B-2, yet the first section doesn't go into huge detail about cost, the scientists who were against it, etc. Why? Because the main purpose of an encyclopedia is to describe the topic.

Another example (military this time). Look at M1 Abrams. That system was very expensive, complex, and controversial. Yet the first section doesn't spend 80% of the space elaborating on that, on "questions remain about whether it will work, whether it's worth the cost", etc. Why? Because the main purpose of an encyclopedia is describe the topic.

Does that mean you can't mention cost or political issues at all? No, but the space devoted to that should be balanced and in line with other articles on similar subjects, and similar articles in other encyclopedias such as Britannica and Encarta. Joema 15:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Before applying this tag, I think it needs to be discussed. First of all, the existing article has both positive and negative aspects of it. Secondly, the examples you gave are likely true, though perhaps they need to be reworded. Thirdly, even though the source of the article might have been a government page, the text has been extensively rewritten. I know, because I have contributed chunks to this page (none of which read in the manner you are pointing out.) —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 14:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you've got it backwards. The NPOV dispute tag is applied and then a discussion is initiated; see Wikipedia:NPOV dispute#How to initiate an NPOV debate?. The tag is only removed when there is a consensus to do so, that is, when the dispute is over. You cannot simply claim that this is the case because you disagree with the person who initiated the dispute; the tag does not state that the article is not neutral, it states that there are neutrality objections against it, which is a fact. Your removal of the tag is therefore inappropriate and against policy, and I have reverted it.

I have voiced my objections to specific passages. That other passages are more balanced is not the point. If I find the time, I will give the article a copyedit (the German version reads much better), but until the objections are resolved, the article is rightly and properly marked as being in dispute.--Eloquence* 14:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I see. So you're continuing the fashionable trend of slapping the {{npov}} tag on any article that doesn't read the way you want. Great. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 15:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it not appropriate to just slap a NPOV dispute tag if you have an issue with just a few sentences. Just change them and then discuss the changes in the talk page. If the article was seriously biased and others did not agree to change to NPOV, then you could slap a "NPOV dispute tag" on it. Note that no one 'disputed' any changes you recommended.

I examined some earlier versions, and I agree there were a few "peacock" terms that weren't consistent with an encyclopedic tone. However the solution is remove just those, not jam a bunch of pro/con stuff into the article. Our primary goal as encyclopedia writers is simply describe the topic, not pass judgement on it. That applies no matter how strongly you feel about it. E.g, the Wikipedia articles on abortion and evolution simply describe those topics, they don't slant the coverage, or burden it with "Crossfire-style" pro/con positions.

The Wikipedia article on automobiles doesn't fill half of the first section discussing the environmental costs, or how cars have killed more people than all 20th century wars combined. Why? Because those aren't immediately relevant to describing what a car is, how it works, who developed it, etc.

If you want a better idea what this article should be like, examine these: Joema 21:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

• [4]
• [5]

Just because a person is a pacifist doesn't mean he/she can slap NPOV tags willy nilly on anything he/she doesn't like. (note the indirection of the comment) Get rid of it. Haizum 05:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If nobody objects, I'll be happy to revise the article to be more consistent with other similar articles, e.g, Tupolev Tu-95, B-52 Stratofortress, B-1 Lancer. Even if that doesn't please everybody, it would be a better base from which to continue changes, as the current version has so many problems. Joema 16:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to mention the problems with the B-2 in the Pentagon's Operational Test and Evaluation 2003 Annual Report[6]? It mentions that the B-2's sortie rate is still below it's original requirments and its Defensive Avionics systems still dont work properly. Ill add an external link to the document, but Ill hold off on any other changes till Ive heard other's opinions. DarthJesus 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The guiding principle is an encyclopedia article should describe and explain the topic, not critique it. It's OK to mention some problems and limitations, if those are appropriate and don't outweigh the main article. Consistency is important. It's illogical if an article is saturated with criticism, yet other similar articles about more problematic systems have none. E.g, there's no criticism in the Wikipedia articles on V-22 Osprey, B-1 Lancer, Harrier II, and B-58 Hustler. Yet those systems were much more problematic than the B-2. That makes it appear someone with a vendetta influenced the article, which calls into question the scholarly impartiality and even the legitimacy of an encyclopedia.

So yes it's OK to mention some of those items, but it should be in good taste and purely informational in nature, not like a "60 Minutes" investigative journalism piece. In general such items should be an exceedingly small percentage of the article, and the tone should not be critical. Joema 23:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

ADD TO COMBAT SECTION

---

one was shot down over Serbia in 1999...

No B-2 has ever been shot down or even crashed. You're probably thinking about a F-117 Nighthawk. Joema 14:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Range?

"Later missions to Iraq were launched and returned to Whiteman AFB in Missouri." Launched from where? The distance from Baghdad to Kansas City, Missouri is almost 11000 km. The distance from Diego Garcia to Baghdad is much more than 4000 km. The range of the aircraft is only 12000 km -- does this actually mean 24000, 12000 each way (in contradiction to Range (aircraft))? Joshua Davis 20:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure they used aerial refueling, as depicted in the image in this article. Aerial refueling is used even for aircraft with longer range than the B-2, such as the B-52 Stratofortress. Joema 17:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Naming vs First Plane Delivered

One paragraph states that the first B-2 delivered was the "Spirit of Missouri", whhile the list of B-2 names below lists 7 bombers numerically before it. Now, I'm sure the explanation is nice and simple, and my own guess would simply be that plane was specifically picked to be the first delivered due to it's name, since they were to be station in an AFB in Missouri. However, I would like to know more. How did the others get their nicknames? Where they used for testing first, thus making the first manufactured after that group, also beingthe first w/o a nickname, the first to be delivered? I would assume that AV-1 through AV-7 are also in service... is this so? I just feel there is some more, good information out there I don't know yet, but would like to. --Reverend Loki 21:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Aircraft design

I am sure not much is available on why the aircraft has such atypical angles and overall design; but a brief synopsis would be appreciated. --DragonFly31 14:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Rate of climb

The article doesn't list rate of climb in the performance section, nor does it say it's classified. All that's there is the unit markers. BioTube 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Contrary statement

The B-2, akin to the F-117, relies on very low observability and signature. This condition is compromised if the aircraft is flown in wet conditions. This is false.

I've removed the later part of the quote as it contradicts itself. Feel free to add it again if we can determine if it is true or not. // Azninja

Holloman AFB suspends flight operations for the F-117 because, as one woman who worked there put it, ‘the planes are made of cardboard and come unglued during the rain’. Since the B-2 uses the same (or similar, I forget which) materials it should be in the same boat. TomStar81 09:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The planes are not built of cardboard or glue and a quote from "one woman" is hardly evidenceBQZip01 18:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

B-2 antigravity speculation removed

Removed long speculative digression about B-2 leading edge electrostatic charge improving thrust or lift via (essentially) antigravity. No rational basis for this, depite being published as speculation in 1992 Aviation Week (Not Jane's Defense Week). This is an encyclopedia not Usenet. I believe the article is reprinted here: [7]. Joema 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• I just want to say "thank you" for your initivie in removing that frankly stupid section of this article, and I just want to say that I wish I bothered to take such initivite myself. 24.9.10.235 21:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest that the antigravity stuff -- of which there is a huge amount on the Above Top Secret forum -- is related to the "fact" that the B-2 has some very unusual high voltage charging of its leading wing edge and also the exhaust stream. There are several sources, here is one: www.bookrags.com/wiki/B-2_Spirit. From this source, I quote: "For reasons not yet de-classified, the B-2 charges its leading edge to a very high electrical potential difference from its exhaust stream. It has been suggested (by Jane's Defence) that it augments the B-2's low thrust main engines. It is also a well known phenomenon that an ionised gas (plasma) will scatter a radar beam far more effectively than a solid surface of any conceivable shape. This could be the purpose of the high voltage leading edge. Another possibility is that it is for the purpose of reducing drag, since the leading edge of the B-2 might then move through a partial vacuum of ionised air which may be ionised and repelled by the high voltage. In any case, it is however true that Northrop engineers conducted wind tunnel tests using high voltage on a testbed wing leading edge to reduce supersonic drag as far back as 1968. These tests were with a view to breaking up the airflow ahead of the wing using electrical forces in order to soften a sonic boom. How this applies (if indeed it does at all) to the B-2 after an interval of many years is uncertain. The B-2 is (officially) a subsonic vehicle, so there would appear to be no immediate link, however tantalising the connection. Though intriguing, the true nature of this feature will probably not be known to the public for some very considerable time." Please note I place this quote here in the discussion area, not in the article body. -- SunSw0rd 17:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• The above Bookrags.com source was itself taken from an earlier version of the Wikipedia B-2 article. In other words, it's a self-referencing, or circular citation. I don't know what the original source was, but a reference in support of Wikipedia that was itself copied verbatim from Wikipedia carries no weight. Also, a conspiracy discussion forum like www.abovetopsecret.com is no more a credible reference for an encyclopedia than a Usenet discussion. See WP:Reliable sources, and Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. Joema 19:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So perhaps you would prefer a direct quote from Janes Defence Weekly. " While airframe shaping is part of the QSP approach, DARPA is asking companies to look at other means of sonic boom suppression. DARPA specifically mentions the use of plasmas to reduce drag at supersonic speed. Russian work dating back to the 1970s indicates that it is possible to reduce the intensity of the shock wave from an aeroplane's nose by generating an electrical field in the airflow, which creates a plasma, or electrically charged gas stream.

The USAF Research Laboratory has sponsored a number of tests in an effort to reproduce the Russian plasma results. So far, the US researchers say they do not completely understand the mechanism involved. For example, there is no agreement as to whether the shock reduction is caused by heat, by the change in the molecular structure of the gas caused by the plasma, or both. Tests continue in the US and Russia, using a variety of plasma generators (some with inert gas injection) to create stable and streamer-like discharges.

It is safe to assume that other plasma-aerodynamics research has been carried out under classified programs, because of the technology's potential for reducing the drag of supersonic aircraft. Some of this work may be available to the DARPA effort." SunSw0rd 17:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say that supercavitation is related phenomenon. This phenomenon is used e.g. with super-fast torpedoes, like the Russian Shkval. --MoRsE 17:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed statement about B-2 Spirit of Missouri being shot down in 1999

It obviously did not happen as there are many dated images of the Spirit of Missouri since then: [8], [9], [10] Joema 22:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Those photos are no proof.

What you see today as "Spirit of Missouri" is a new aircraft. US sources confirmed, Russian sources confirmed and Serbian sources confirmed this kill. I even have photos of the crash site and photos of pieces of this aircraft. But official politics are "deny". I'll not go deeply into this. I just wanted to make an statement that this craft WAS destroyed. [11] Yurion

"Russian sources" :LOL: What did they have to do with this war except for their blatant anti-americanism? Nothing at all. Unless they littered the Serbian soil with their observers (which certainly didn't happen) they just "confirmed" what the others said to them without having any knowledge of their own. This page from www.aeronautics.ru said "Please contact them if you have any information about new NATO losses or if you can add anything to the information already contained in this table". Conclusion? They will add anything that suits their propaganda goals without bothering to verify. Certainly not a credible source, just ruskies' brag.B-2Admirer 10:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The stealth aircraft that was shot down over Kosovo in 1999 was a F-117 not a B-2 --Paladin 13:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I can explain: There is a wild conspiracy theory that the B-2 "Spirit of Missouri" was shot down in the Kosovo conflict in June 1999. Supposedly it was stupidly flying very low which gave the anti-aircraft missiles a better chance. The pilots were too dumb to know their JDAM GPS-guided bombs were equally accurate when dropped from 40,000 feet. To cover up things, the U.S. Air Force repainted another B-2 with the same markings until they could build a replacement. They also bought off or brainwashed the B-2 crewmember's relatives to keep their silence. This clever ruse was possible because all 21 B-2s were never seen simultaneously at the same place. The Serbs also cooperated in the conspiracy by not showing any B-2 component wreckage with serial numbers, unlike the downed F-117A which was widely televised. That kind of thing is fine for Usenet, but this is an encyclopedia. Appropriately, WP:NOT says "You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views". That is good advice in this case. Joema 19:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

B-2s being shot down in Allied Force make for a good bedtime story. However, that is all it is. No fact. Just consider alone that the B-2 being nuke capable is part of the START treaty. It's inventory is always known by TREATY. A missing/lost airframe couldn't be hidden. Want to deploy it to Guam? Got to tell the Russians. Diego? Ditto. 6 November 2006( ELP ).

You have proof? Show us just ONE picture or a legal document.BQZip01 18:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is known that a second stealth aircraft was hit by SAM fire in the Kosovo campaign. The damaged plane returned to base with great difficulty and wrecked itself in a belly-up landing so much it never flew again. Whether that stealth plane was an F-117 or a B-2 is not specified. 81.0.68.145 19:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"It is known..." is not proof of any kind. It is speculation unless corroborated. Do you even have a semi-reputable website to back this up? If not, it is not verifiable and should not be included. :::I can say "It is known that most airplanes actually fly better when inverted (upside down), but it is an FAA/US government conspiracy..." but it doesn't make it true. — BQZip01 — ^talk 22:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed statement about B-2 withdrawal from Kosovo operation due to F-117A shootdown

The F-117A was shot down on March 27, 1999. Use of other F-117As and B-2 bombers continued after this in the Kosovo operation: [12], [13]. Joema 22:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Not stealthy when wet?

I reverted the addition about not being stealthy when wet. These statements apparently stem from a 1997 GAO report which has been heavily politicized and isn't representative of current real world B-2 operational issues. The actual and current operational B-2 limitations seem less restricted and more complex. Also in general the B-2 operates from 40,000 feet (which is far above rain and the weather) using GPS-guided bombs. It's not like the F-117A stealth fighter which bombs from relatively low altitude (in the weather) using laser-guided bombs. For details see:

• GAO report on B-2
• CNN article on GAO report
• USAF magazine article #1
• USAF magazine article #2 Joema 23:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh, the article says it's a low-altitude bomber, which required "significant changes" from the original, high-altitude bombing platform. Furthermore, hurricanes and thunderclouds regularly reach up to 60,000 feet. And I'd also like to point out that the nighthawk is hardly a fighter. ... aa:talk 18:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost all aircraft avoid thundestorms and hurricanes at all costs, so this argument is very weak. "Stealth fighter" is its name and designation; its mission is clearly that of a bomber.BQZip01 18:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Weapons update

B-2 now has the ability to employ an 80 JDAM drop of 500lb. GBU-38 JDAMs. Video of a 2003 test: http://das.wisc.edu/~bhp/Pictures/M..._with_JDAMs.asx I would recommend that the "Feature" section mention this a bit or someone will think it can only frag 16 aimpoints with PGMs.

Armament section of the article: What the heck is a JDAM-102 ????

Also of minor interest,some pre-Boeing JDAM history here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gam.htm Before the final DOD contract was awarded for GPS assisted precision guided munitions, Northrop, one of the competitors was already having their "GAM" used on the B-2. The B-2 dropped Northrop "GAMs" before the Boeing product. Boeing later won the full contract. Also according to that source, the GBU-37 was the first "bunker buster" munition to be used with the aircraft. The Wiki article mentions GBU-28. GBU-28 info here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28.htm If it mentions that, it should also mention GBU-37. As GBU-28 has laser seaking ability ( a Paveway seeker on the nose ) a B-2 would either have to have the target "buddy lased" by another source as the B-2 has no laser ability like a LANTIRN/MANTIRN, LITENING, SNIPER or similar. One source ( already mentioned in the external links of the Wiki Article: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-2.htm Mentions "Enhanced" Paveway... EGBU-28. ( EGBU-28 info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28e.htm )There is a difference. GBU-28 is laser seeking only. The "E" for "Enhanced Paveways" have a dual use option added to them where upon your choice, you can have them reach their target via GPS/INS assist similar to JDAM if needed, or a combination of GPS/INS and laser seeking terminal. The original laser seeking-only GBU-28 ( someone correct me ) was first dropped by the F-111 in combat ( Desert Storm ). And later with the F-15E ( Allied Force ). So I would be suprised if GBU-28s were common with the Whiteman crowd. The original GBU-28s were crude affairs produced quickly from old 8" artillery barrels. Newer ones are produced to spec. A public consumption news piece I saw right before OIF 2003 where Greta Van Sustern ( FoxNews ) did a feature on Whiteman, it clearly showed in the tour, GBU-37 and JDAM GBU-31 series ( Mk84 or BLU-109 2000lb. mated to JDAM kit ) on display. This would lead me to believe that at that time GBU-37 (GPS/INS)( someone correct me ) was the bunker buster of choice with the B-2. The EGBU-28 source above mentions that the EGBU-28 will replace the GBU-37. Unfortunately, I don't think we will have any munitions specialists or aircrew/planners from Whiteman that would be willing to speak on such a thing. It is my opinion that if you are going to mention the 28 it should read EGBU-28 and not GBU-28. This source mentions additional useful things not mentioned in the USAF source at the bottom of the Wiki article: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/ Just some thoughts I had. I will leave it for the original authors of this Wiki article to consider.6 November 2006 ( ELP )

Other

Paul Tibbets ( of Enola Gay fame ) grandson was ( or still is? ) a B-2 pilot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets 6 November 2006 ( ELP )

"Informal names"

Are "Informal names" of individual aircraft really relevant to an encylclopedic article? I would have removed them myself, but I don't mess with tables, as I don't know anything about them. I can understand the official names being listed, as most USAF aircraft don't have individual official names, making them unique. - BillCJ 03:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say that if these informal names are well-known then yes they should remain (e.g. VW Beetles are affectionately referred to as 'bugs' by many people). I'm not sure if the names are popular (knowing little about the craft) but if they are known by those names to enthusiasts I would deem them worthy of retention. ny156uk 23:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about a name like the "Warthog" for the A-10, but the chart list names for each indiviual B-2 in service. These are most likely names given to the planes by pilots or crew, and as such have now way to be verified. - BillCJ 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the informal names, as there are uncited and unverifiable. - BillCJ 00:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

If we're talking about the "Spirit of" names (Missouri, California, Texas, Georgia, etc) no, they weren't given by pilots or crews, they were given by the AF and Northrop as part each aircraft's delivery ceremony. Some of the flight test aircraft had "nicknames" such as "Fire and Ice" and "Christine" (named after the Steven King novel abou the possessed car because it was such a cranky beast) which were given by the flight test folks at Edwards. - Alanz01 05:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, my point is being missed. The chart lists those names under "Formal". There there isn't a direct source for those names, I have seen them in published sources, and there is probably a DOD site somewhere with the whole list. THose aren't the names being referred to here. - BillCJ 05:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed information about the B2 being tracked at british airshow

This information is incorrect. The B2 at the airshow was required to be in sight of british radar. A special package was attached to it which gave away its position.

Where's the source for the specs?

I thought that the max speed of the B-2 was clasified. So could someone get a citation for the specs of the airplane?Fatdelear 19:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Im almost certain that the speed for the B-2 is classified since the military's website lists the speed as high sub-sonic, look for your selfhttp://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82Fatdelear 16:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

regarding specs, IO would liek to add that on FAS, ordnance of B-2 is said to be 18,000 kg,

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-2.htm

while in this wiki article, it makes it confusing, as if the ordnance of B-2 is 18,000 + 12,000 kg. You should emphasize OR in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.216.68 (talk) 17:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible photo for article

This is a photo I took of a B-2 Spirit as it taxied at the Darwin International Airport in the Norther Territory, Australia. If you look close you will see that it is AV-12, BuNos 89-0127, the Spirit of Kansas. Put it here and if you think it is worthy of the article then please add it. Cheers--Looper5920 12:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks! I added your image to the Operational history section. -Fnlayson 15:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

* Image was deleted; removing redlink. — ERcheck (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

UFOs and the B-2

I think its worth noting that there has been some (fairly credible, really) speculation that a lot of UFO sightings were related to the B2 and other flying wing aircraft, and think it deserves a mention. Titanium Dragon 22:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Sure, if there's something official, i.e. verifiable source, please add it. -Fnlayson 22:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

List of B-2 Bombers

I removed the list. A recent change to the name of one of the entries in this table made me aware that the list was added with no citation or discussion, so we have no way of knowing if any of these names are correct. The table is below in case someone can verify and cite the list. --Chuck Sirloin 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Designation	Tail #	Formal name
AV-1	82-1066	Spirit of America
AV-2	82-1067	Spirit of Arizona
AV-3	82-1068	Spirit of New York
AV-4	82-1069	Spirit of Indiana
AV-5	82-1070	Spirit of Ohio
AV-6	82-1071	Spirit of Mississippi
AV-7	88-0328	Spirit of Texas
AV-8	88-0329	Spirit of Missouri
AV-9	88-0330	Spirit of California
AV-10	88-0331	Spirit of South Carolina
AV-11	88-0332	Spirit of Washington
AV-12	89-0127	Spirit of Kansas
AV-13	89-0128	Spirit of Nebraska
AV-14	89-0129	Spirit of Georgia
AV-15	90-0040	Spirit of Alaska
AV-16	90-0041	Spirit of Hawaii
AV-17	92-0700	Spirit of Florida"
AV-18	93-1085	Spirit of Oklahoma
AV-19	93-1086	Spirit of Kitty Hawk
AV-20	93-1087	Spirit of Pennsylvania
AV-21	93-1088	Spirit of Louisiana
AV-22–AV-135 cancelled

Looks like that change was vandalism, but you are right, we have no way to tell. It used to have a list of "informal" names, but I removed that awhile back as being totally unverifiable (see discussion above). A Google search turned up several individual names, usually being named in delivery ceremonies, so these are official names sanctioned by the USAF. However, I could find no single list of all the names, except on the Wikipedia mirror sites. Hopefully someone else can find a verifiable source, as these names are often used in news reports. - BillCJ 21:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• If one source could be found that'd be great. Otherwise, that could be a big pain to find all of them. I don't see the names as adding that much, imo. -Fnlayson 21:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Here's the list you are looking for, but I'm not sure what the numbers on the left are. They clearly aren't tail numbers, but might be the serial number of the airframe that the manufacturer gave it? http://www.uswarplanes.net/b2.html . In addition, I'd like to say that the names of each of the bombers personalizes them somewhat and IMHO adds to the article. BQZip01 22:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that you found a list like that, but because that page shows no source information it is not a verifiable source. For all we know, the list on that page came from this article. We need a better WP:VER source than that. --Chuck Sirloin 23:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

FAS.ORG has a list near the bottom of its B-2 page, along with some explanations for the names. They appear to have corroborated the names with Whiteman AFB in particular, but do not list a source as such. They also list the "informal" names, so FAS is probably the source for the original list here, as it also included the infomal names. I would accept this source as being verification of the official names and the numbers, as these are assigned by the USAF. Any informal names should not be listed, as these are just crew nicknames, and will change as crews change.

We could restore the chart, use FAS as the source, but include a {{verify source}} tag to show that further verification is needed. Would this be acceptable? - BillCJ 23:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• Seems like a reasonable plan to me. -Fnlayson 00:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Sounds good to me. FAS is pretty good about their fact checking. --Chuck Sirloin 04:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, since that's most of us, and BQZip seemed in favor of it, I'm re-adding it with the source and tag. - BillCJ 04:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

governor quote

it is true, it's taken from a children's book called Flight by Richard Platt published by DK. the isbn is 1-4053-0834-6. why dont you think it adds anything? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 (talk) 19:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

and i just googled the quote and came up with www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/rodblagoje168294.html and there are others —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 (talk • contribs).

• It does not belong in the lead in any event. It already says the plane costs over $1.157 billion. That quote does not add anything to that fact. -Fnlayson 20:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) First off, brainyquote.com is hardly a verifiable source since it does not list a source for the quote. Second, the quote itself is not true, its like $870 an ounce which is not 3 times the cost of gold. Plus, its just a sensationalist kind of quote meant to point out what a 'boondoggle' the stealth bomber is. Each one doesn't, as the article points out, actually cost $2.2bil, that is just the program cost when divided by the delivered number of frames. It includes MASSIVE development costs for the tech itself. --Chuck Sirloin 20:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

you say brainy quote isnt verifiable but i i got it from a book and the website kinda a remarkable that two identical quotes from the same guy were made up by some people who got bored. if that website isnt verifiable what is?? from two sources fucking A—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.151.73.249 (talk • contribs) 18:05, 26 April 2007.

Tone 'er down there hotrod, why are you getting so 'worked up' about this? brainyquote.com is not a verifiable source because it does not itself list any sources. Read WP:VER if you are having a hard time understanding the concept. If the children's book you found the quote in happened to have a bibliography that showed where quote came from then it would be verifiable as well, but I doubt that it does. AND in any case, it doesn't matter because it (as shown here in this discussion) is a stupid quote that doesn't add anything to the article. --Chuck Sirloin 23:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

• • About the cost: FYI, I've found that the best way to explain it to people who ask is "If they only made 21 Toyota Corollas, don't you think they'd run a few million dollars a pop, too?" --KNHaw ^(talk) 21:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

ok chill. sheesh people get so worked up on the net.

Dude, for those of us who built the damn thing, this is a long running sore point. If people want to hold a rational argument about costs and benefits of the program (i.e. how many elementary schools could have been financed in lieu of the B-2), that's cool. But it's gonna bug anyone when something they worked on for years is slandered with that kind of inaccurate quote. Wouldn't you be irritated if someone made an outrageous diss of your school/town/favorite team? ("Hey, you know that Kobe Bryant is paid three times his weight in gold a year while children in LA go hungry?")

Besides, talk pages are the places where we're supposed to "get so worked up" (*GRIN*) --KNHaw ^(talk) 21:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

If the B-2 were made of gold, I doubt it could fly. even if it could, it's range would be much shorter, and it'd be detectable by radar. Also, no manufacturer has any experience making gold airplanes, so there'd be a steep learning curve to make it. All that would probably mean the gold B-2s would actually cost a lot more than the real ones, esp since Congress wouldn't buy as many as 21 of a plane that hardly worked. The some governor would say, "Each Proposed B-2 Stealth bomber costs three times more than it would if every part of the plane were not made of gold." That's why we call it sensationalism: it sounds cute, but it's really meaningless nonsense. Remember, when a politician complains about how much money is spent on something, he doesn't mean the money should not have been spent. He just means it should have been spent on something else that he approves of! - BillCJ 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

BillCJ, you'd better watch any mention of the AAP (Auric Aircraft Project). I don't think anyone in this forum is cleared to know that Black helicopters are painted that way to conceal the fact that they're made of gold.

Wait... did I type that? Ooops...

--KNHaw ^(talk) 21:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Photographs

I came across this photograph of the B-2 bombing on the Live fire exercise article. I believe it would add to this article, but I do not know where to place it. I also feel that Image:20061027-6 v102706db-0153jpg-772v.jpg would be a good addition as it shows the scale of the B-2. Mehmet Karatay 07:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think all the poctures on this page should be featured. they are all just so spectacular --Chickenfeed9 16:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• I added that one. -Fnlayson 20:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

External Links

I corrected the second link (B-2 Spirit page on NorthropGrumman.com), which was outdated. Get Shorty 16:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

nm or nmi

Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Lightmouse 19:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Wingweb.co.uk

I run a site titled Air Vectors that covers military aircraft and gets cited here and there on Wikipedia. I don't normally touch wikipedia articles other than to correct typos and the like, but I just found out about a site named "Wingweb.co.uk" which is also cited here and there on Wikipedia (for example in this article) ... but whose aviation articles are largely or entirely downloads of Air Vectors articles -- advertized as "original content & images" though they also lifted many of my photos and artwork.

I have no fuss to make. I just want to make sure the Wikipedia community knowns that Wingweb.co.uk is a ripoff operation. Cheers / MrG 4.225.208.126 02:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)