Talk:B-24 Liberator

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B-24 Liberator was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: February 6, 2007

Contents

[edit] DAB page

Why is it that i get a B-24 liberator when i search for a normal political liberator??? and how do you create new pages? CrazyLucifer 08:39, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What you're look for is a dictionary defintion. Also, I have fixed that problem. Liberator is now a disambiguation. →Iñgōlemo← talk 01:44, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

[edit] Ball turret size

It would be most helpful if the article included the diameter of the ball turret (especially the inside diameter). I can't find this information anywhere! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 (talk) 19:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

maru (talk) contribs 02:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vis-a-vis B-17

I think it would be interesting to add a section to either the B-24 or -17 page comparing the two, especially as this is something that is often a subject of debate in certain circles. I think the same sort of thing should then be done for B-26 vs. 25. 64.12.116.67 02:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm preparing a short article comparing bombloads and ranges for the B-17, B-24, and Avro Lancaster. Edweirdo 16:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

See article User:Edweirdo/Maximum reported B-17 & B-24 bomb loads.--Edweirdo 17:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bomb Loads actually carried

In my readings of published combat reports in books and on the web, I searched for the maximum bombloads carried various distances by B-24's. This is what I found for B-24's flown by US Air Forces(distances are a round trip, and are straight lines "as crow flies". Actual distances flown are often greater):

Previous account of Max Bombload: 9,000lbs, B-24H, March 8, 1945, 8th Air Force, 467th Bomb Group, Rackheath to Dillenburg, 745 miles RT. Note: I no longer believe this account. This would have been an extraordinary event with the crews speculating whether their planes could get off the ground with a bombload 80% larger than the usual 4000-5000lb load. Also, it is contradicted by the mission detail reported in Roger A. Freeman's War Diary. I think the author of the account made a mistake in the number of bombs or their size.

Current Max Bombload: 8,000lbs, B-24H, November 5, 1944, 8th Airforce, 467th Bomb Group, Rackheath to Karlsruhe, 875 miles round trip.

Dresden: 6,000lbs, B-24H, January 16, 1945, 8th Airforce, 467th Bomb Group, Rackheath to Dresden, 1,175 miles RT.

Gdynia: 5,000lbs, B-24H, October 8, 1944, 8th Air Force, 467th Bomb Group, Rackheath to Gdynia (now Gdansk, Poland), 1,530 miles RT.

Ploesti: 4,000lbs, B-24D, August 1, 1943, 9th Air Force, Bengazi to Ploesti, 2,080 miles RT.

Max Distance: 2,700lbs, B-24D, August 30, 1944, 13th and 5th Air Forces, Numfoor (an island near Biak, New Guinea) to Balikpapan (Borneo), 2,480 miles RT.

The RAF (231 Group, 159 Squadron, CBI theater) under a Commander named J. Blackburn, flew lightened Mk VI B-24's out of Salbani, India carrying huge bomb loads "Consolidated B-24 Liberator", by Martin W. Bowman, Crowood Press, 1998 pp. 135-138.ISBN 1 86126143 8: Rangoon: 12,000lbs, 1,430 miles RT. Bankok: 8,000lbs, 2,135 miles RT. Penang Harbor: 4,400lbs, 2,950 miles RT. Edweirdo 16:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"Davis wing's habit of flexing at high altitudes." Is this what the engineers call flutter? Flutter is different from normal flexing. --Gbleem 14:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The wing flexed--i.e. oscillated up and down (like a bird's). So did the B-52's.--Buckboard 09:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

B-24: Regarding the specifications for this aircraft ( and others) For clarity, It should be noted that the B-24 cruising speed was rated at 150-160 mph at sea level, such airspeed being indicated on the instrument panel. Pilots in World War II generally used this figure whether at sea level or high altitude (if it was possible to maintain that airspeed). Each crew was supplied with the U.S. Army Air Corps TYPE E-6B AERIAL DEAD RECKONING COMPUTER, which was a hand held mechanical device where the indicated air speed was entered upon an affixed wheel which was then turned to the present altitude and outdide temperature. The resulting figure was the true air speed.The difference in indcated and true airspeed is due to altitude and outside air tempeature as explained elsewhere in Wikipedia. Categories: Aircraft instruments | Aviation stubs Article

[edit] History of B-24 Survivor 'Diamond Lil'

The original poster had stated that Diamond Lil had been a former USAAF aircraft and then another user has recently changed it to a former RAF aircraft.

In truth, the now owned and operated Confederate Air Force aircraft was indeed the 25th B-24 ever made of over 18,000 B-24s (and variants) ever built. And was the 18th of 20 LB-30s made for delivery to the United Kingdom, however, in 1941 when it was being delivered to Canada, it had an accident and was rebuilt as a Consolidated company aircraft and flew for Consolidated throughout World War II.

Eventually the aircraft was sold to the Contintental Can Company and 10 years later it was sold again to Mexico's national oil company until CAF bought it in 1967.

http://www.cafb29b24.org/lilhist.html

--Signaleer 20:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The story behind AM927 is long and convoluted - AM927 was ordered by the USAAC as a B-24A but all aircraft from this contract was assigned (by direct purchase) to the RAF as Liberator B.I - so yes technically it could be said it was a former USAAC (not USAAF aircraft) but only being the one to initiate the contract to buildDavegnz (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failure

I'm failing the GA, because I found the entire introductory section far too short and rather disorganized. Why would one compare it to the P-51, a plane that didn't even exist yet? Surely there are other examples of quickly-designed aircraft (that's rhetorical, there are lots). The rest of the article is something of a grab bag. There's lots of good information, but I just don't think it reads well enough to be GA in its current form. Maury 22:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Resolved.
This article is completely devoid of in-line references. There definitely need to be more to achieve GA status. I noticed that there were books listed here, so all one would need to do is page through those books and find the appropriate pages for each paragraph. Jolb 02:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Resolved.

[edit] Merge proposal

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was No consensus to merge. -- brewcrewer (yada, yada) 09:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Agree with merge, however we don't need all the survivors details brought over. This stuff isn't really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. Akradecki 18:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose- My primary reason for opposing the merge is that the amount of detail in the Liberator I article would be difficult if not impossible to incorporate into the main body of the B-24 article. As well, the reason for the Liberator I article in the first place was because the main article was becoming too large- survivors is also separated from the main article. My final reason for opposing the move to merge is that the Liberator I article at present stands on its own but if it was to be merged, a great deal of "culling" would have to take place which is already the source of some contention in this forum and on the WK Aircraft discussion pages. IMHO Bzuk 19:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - I think there should be a subection on the Liberatior I as a modification of iof the B-24. As akradecki states above, the survivor information should be stripped. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - A great deal of the "culling" would be of the non-notable items, which are a majority of the entries. Some of the notable actions could be included in the text as part of the historical narrative. - BillCJ 20:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose - I agree with what Bzuk has to say in reference to this merger. Not only does it clutter the article since it is rather lengthy, there is sufficient information to create a separate Wiki article if a person viewing the website feels that they want to investigate. There are no other encylopedias where it lists survivors both in paper or online, it is out of place and deserves it's own section. -Signaleer 07:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I agree with Bzuk and Signaleer - articles about main aircraft of WWII are lenghty and cluttered, we should clean it by creating new "subarticles". Piotr Mikołajski 09:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - if it is merged it will then be segregated out as a "list" and detailed history may be lost. This article seems to be written as a RAF version, not a US version. Modify the title with "GR" The history on each a/c is excellant. Good Referencing, needs more. Lets not disturb a gooooood article!!! -LanceBarber 16:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - however with the caveat that the the fine detail of the individual airframes be curtailed or summarized - at encylopedia level of detail the exact delivery date for each aircraft is no longer relevant. The article should be used as a basis for all Liberators in British service. GraemeLeggett 08:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Support - I support the merger because the Liberator I was simply a step in the evolution of the aircraft. Beyond initial development, the B-24A deserves no more, or less, detail than the B-24C, D, H, J, L or M. The history of each tail number is interesting to us Liberator fans, but seems excessive for this format.--Boomerbear89 22:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose For the same reason given by Piotr. I agree the article needs to be cleaned up, but I feel a merge will mean the article will get lost 194.78.167.120 09:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC) Deckchair 09:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Due to the length of time that has now transpired and the fact that the interested parties (editors) are not in agreement on the merging of the two articles, can we "agree to disagree" and consider the merge proposal now a moot point? IMHO Bzuk 12:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC).
The count is 6 opposed - 3 support, 2 to 1 ratio; it would appear that this merger is not going to happen. -Signaleer 06:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] BQ-8?

Reading the List of military aircraft of the United States , I found at the section Controllable bomb 1942-1945 the reference to BQ-8, an B-24 Liberator variant. I cannot find any reference in this article. --Francisco Valverde 17:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Create new main article B-24 Liberator variants proposal

Is the main article too large? Discssion. LanceBarber 17:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't think it's too long. Just my opinion. - BillCJ 03:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


The picture of the Willow Run assembly line is actuall that of B-24J-CO at CONVAIR, San Diego CA about January, 1944. Neither the configuration of the assembly line nor the planes on it match Willow Run. Willow Run never built this type B-24J, but alter version; and the final assembly line ran with the planes in-line, nose to tail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.163.60 (talk) 16:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Support - I believe that all the details on each variant could be better depicted (including photos/drawings of each one) in a spceific wiki-article dedicated to the sub-variants of this prolific design. The main article could just ennumerate the variants without further details, so integrity is maintained and any reader not willing to drill-down into detail couls still have an overview of which variants this aircraft had. Regards, DPdH (talk) 07:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
To better illustrate my comment, please refer to the article on the B-17 "Flying Fortress" (specifically, the one on its variants: B-17 Flying Fortress variants), as well as the category "Lists of aircraft variants" (which today includes: B-17, B-29, B-36, Hurricane & Spitfire). DPdH (talk) 07:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support & merge Consolidated Liberator I. The detailed info is worth keeping, & this solution avoids "clutter" in the main article, as well as the long lists of variants (P-51 & P-39 come to mind), as well as offering the opportunity to expand on the variants. Trekphiler (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I'd suggest merging the Preproduction B-24 variants list too, but I'd be accused of "vandalizing" again. I still don't quite understand why we allow such detailed articles on aircraft that are individually non-notable (meaning the are no sources proving their notability, just proving they existed) - this is something that would be fine on that new site, Planespotting, but is not appropriate here. Just because someone created a page without considering what WP actually is and does is no reason to perpetuate its existance. So if creating a variants page will get rid of all the other B-24 spin-off pages, then I'm all for it. - BillCJ (talk) 19:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm working on moving them to Planespotting, so don't worry. =] Trekphiler (talk) 04:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal 2

I suggest that this article be merged back into the main B-24 article. I see no need to have an entirely seperate article on the development and design process of this aircraft when it could easily be chopped down a little and slotted into the appropriate sections in B-24 Liberator. Any objections? Tx17777 19:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Support. - BillCJ 19:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - "If it is merged it will then be segregated out as a "list" and detailed history may be lost. This article seems to be written as a RAF version, not a US version. Modify the title with "GR" The history on each a/c is excellant. Good Referencing, needs more. Lets not disturb a gooooood article!" ... as I said in May. LanceBarber (talk) 05:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Concur - There is good information on the history of the preproduction aircraft that deserves an article on its own. As an alternative, maybe this article could be converted to a "list", without losing the details that would not be merged into the main B-24 article. Would that be acceptable to all? Regards, DPdH (talk) 06:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Still think the pre-production article has to much detail on non-notable aircraft. MilborneOne (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Concur - I'm assuming most of that would be eliminated during the merge process (per "chopped down a little" in the nom), esp if I do the merging. - BillCJ (talk) 18:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The B-24 Liberator article is long enough - need to start seperating out different sections before you start losing information - plus this discussions was settled six months ago - leave these articles aloneDavegnz (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet B-24A

I have a reference that says a single B-24A served in the USSR. That doesn't seem like enough of a basis for listing that country here as a Liberator operator. Binksternet (talk) 23:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Memories of Liberator Village

I deleted a mention of a book by Maurice G. Lambert, "Memories of Liberator Village". As far as I can tell, the book has a very limited publication presence, perhaps only in the Fort Worth, TX area. I haven't read it, so I don't know what parts of it could be used here. I took the book out because it wasn't used as a reference for any kind of improvements to this article. Binksternet (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, the book's own author was inserting mention of it. :/ Binksternet (talk) 20:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)