Talk:B-17 Flying Fortress

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Contents

[edit] Ball turret size

It would be helpful if the article included the diameter of the ball turret, especially the inside diameter! (I can't find this information anywhere.)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 (talk) 19:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

The ball turret used in the B-17 and the B-24 (retractable version) was made by Sperry Corporation (formerly Sperry Gyroscope). Post war Sperry underwent a number of reorganizations which reflected its increased diversification. The documentation for the ball turret, which was made completely obsolete by another defensive system invented by General Electric for the B-29 project, was probably inherited by Sperry Flight Systems Company of Phoenix AZ, which in turn was absorbed by Honeywell Aerospace in the 1980s.

Another source of inquiry might be the Commemorative Air Force, which operates two flyable B-17Gs. Since both of the planes had non-military careers after the war correct defensive gun stations, including the ball, had to be re-installed by the restoration craftsmen. It's unimaginable to me that the owners of those aircraft can't supply us with the needed information if they are contacted and asked politely. Try operations@cafhq.org. ENScroggs 20:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Access dates of references

Front view of a B-17 Flying Fortress. Lackland AFB, San Antonio, Texas (March 2007).
Front view of a B-17 Flying Fortress. Lackland AFB, San Antonio, Texas (March 2007).

I think these need to be in a specific format, although I am not sure of the exact constraints. If not in this format, it seems that they appear as red links. Snowman 17:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, there are no rules for this, but the reader should be able to navigate via one system of dates rather than three, which was the case. I adopted the first date system employed and used it throughout. Bzuk 17:04 4 February 2007 (UTC). See your date above, you also use this system.
My date is not linked. I am trying to avoid all the red linked dates. To maintain the one consistent format (which I presume is your preferred option), I guess that the red linked dates would all need to be piped. Alternatively; the current date format within the main text could remain to be internally consistent, and the assess dates could all be changed to the format that is recognised by the software. ("2007-01-30" works). Actually, I see no reason why the software does not recognise your date format. Snowman 17:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A separate field called "accessyear" can be added to the references, so that "accessdate" contains the month and day (or vice-versa), and "accessyear" contains the year. Here's how it stands now:

{{cite web |url= http://www.boeing.com/history/chronology/chron04.html |title= The Boeing Logbook: 1933 – 1938|accessdate=18 December 2006|format= |work= Boeing.com}}

…and here is how it's supposed to be:

{{cite web |url= http://www.boeing.com/history/chronology/chron04.html |title= The Boeing Logbook: 1933 – 1938|accessdate=18 December|accessyear=2006|format= |work= Boeing.com}}

This way, references will display the access dates properly. I'll convert a few references for starters, but I hope I'll get some help to fix them all. —Squalla 17:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Update: I started fixing the dates, and noticed that the year was not appearing at some of the references. Whilst trying to figure out what I was doing wrong I noticed you had converted most of the dates, and just noticed that you reverted some of them. I'll do a little search to see if I can find out what's wrong. —Squalla 19:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Similarly, I do not know why the year date is not displayed for a few of the links. At the time, I reverted the page, because I thought I did something wrong with the "find/replace" & "RegEx" on AWB. Snowman 19:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

For my 2¢, I'm not sure why the references needed to be changed at all. If the reader has a preference to how a date should be shown, then they can select that form in their user preferences. Right now I have chosen wikilinked dates to be shown as "16:12, January 15, 2001". So no matter how a date is formed in the article, whether it be [[8 January]] [[2007]], [[January 8]] [[2007]], or [[2007-01-08]], it all shows up as 8 January 2007, 2007-01-08, January 8, 2007 (to me they all appear alike). Yes, they look different when you are editing the article, but we are doing this for the reader, not the editor. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 20:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You might have been referring to an earlier change, but talking about this evenings changes, if you look back, the links that have been changed this evening were red links (ie 7 March 2006), which have been changed with only partial success to a format that you are indicating (ie 7 March 2006). Red links were created prior to this. At first inspection there appears to be a fault in accessdates, or misunderstanding about the format that is needed for the software. Is it worth asking the "Village pump (technical)" for help? Snowman 20:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I have asked at "Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)" to see if anyone knows what is wrong. Snowman 11:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It has been analysed at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#References. It seems that it is "cite" does not allow both accessdate and accessyear. It would be possible to have accessmonth and accessyear together or the accessdate ("2006-2-28"). Suggest use "3 February 2006" in the text and "2006-2-28" for the accessdates, with an explanatory footnote. Is there a consensus opinion for date formats for this page. Snowman 13:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Personally I think it's fine to use the YYYY-MM-DD format for references; it may not look as good, but it's a much shorter format (which saves space for both editors and readers), and we know that it will work for every reference, not just some of them. I vote for going back to the YYYY-MM-DD format—at least until there's a reliable way to cite everything in the "Month DD, YYYY" format. —Squalla 14:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

What if the reader has "no preference" selected for date/time (like 99.999% of all wikipedia readers). What would these readers see?Bzuk 21:04 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Are there default settings depending on the localization? Snowman 20:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The setting will format any date that is wikilinked, and if they have no preference then they will see it the way it was written. But, if they have no preference, then it would seem that they don't care how they see the date. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 21:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Then it typically looks like a mess with three different dates even to the casual reader, it is so much easier to do one date system and not bounce around with changes in dates. As I mentioned before, Trevor, there is an established date system for historical writing and it usually prevails in publishing, but in Wikipedia, anything goes. Bzuk 21:34 4 February 2007 (UTC).
The problem is that "cite" does not allow accessdate and accessyear together, so at the present time is in impossible on the wiki to use the English format with "cite" to generate blue links. Perhaps some one will make the wiki software more consistent. Snowman 14:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just done an edit that I think will appease everyones concerns. Using the accessmonthday and accessyear fields, this is how the cite will appear:

The date will be formated in the preferred DD Month YYYY format, and in unlinked so that the only link in the ref will be either the website or the IBSN #. For now there is an extraneous comma between the month and year, but am going to propose at Template_talk:Cite_web that the template be changed such that if someone enters "DD Month" instead of "Month DD", the comma will be ommited. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 16:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that "accessmonthday" will only work with {{Cite web}}, but not with {{Cite journal}} (which is used for many citations in the article). —Squalla 16:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I see. I've commented at Template_talk:Cite_journal#Accessdate. We'll just have to wait for some feedback from the people involved there before updating the templates to allow this. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 17:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Not getting any response yet at the templates, so I've been bold and edited the cite web template. We can now use a new parameter to get the desired date format (I'll edit an example now). If this causes no uproar overnight, I'll update cite journal as well, in the morning. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 04:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This generates an unlinked date with "cite". It can not be used with "journal", but blue links are generated by "journal" by the existing "journal" format. Some blue links and some black links probably will probably look odd. Suggest liaise with template projects. Snowman 10:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and changed the cite journal template to allow this date format. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 22:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surviving Aircraft

There is a flying B-17, named "Yankee Lady" at the Yankee Air Museum in Ypsilanti, MI. I haven't edited it into the article because I don't have the extra info that is there for the other aircraft. Orionhawk 19:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There are others too. Should they have a separate page? Snowman 14:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I think if the two sections about individual aircraft gets any longer it will have to be moved to a separate page. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 15:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I like the idea that all existing airframes will evolve into their own articles, as the histories are built. Mark Sublette (talk) 22:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette (talk) 22:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] gun positions

part of what makes the B-17 compelling is its huge number of manned guns. Searching for where the guns were in the 13-gun configuration is difficult in this article's current form... it should be in the summary section of the article. Maybe a diagram? brain 15:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable B-17s

I think Old 666 should be added as it fought off 17 zeroes and was recently featured on the History Channel's Dogfights. It had more guns than a regular B-17 and two men in it won the Medal of Honor, and the rest, the Distinguished Flying Cross in the same day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.60.204.161 (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

If you want to be taken seriously, a) register and b) never ever mention the steaming turd that is "Dogfights" as your reference. - Emt147 Burninate! 23:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, yessss... I was in Fort Walton Beach, Florida over the holidaze, and hung out with a group of Eglin and Hurlburt airmen from a local car club, and the members of the 33rd Fighter Wing are all pissed-off at "Dogfights" for showing all the Gulf War air victories, marked LK for Lakenheath, with nary an "EG" tailcode for the 33rd, who scored the majority of the kills in that conflict. I agree with Emt147 - do NOT use "Dogfights" as sources... Mark Sublette (talk) 22:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette (talk) 22:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long range fighter impact

I made several edits to correct statements which perpetuated a myth that has grown up around the advent of the P-51 in 1944, hopefully without changing the general tenor of what was there. 8AF lost 700 bombers to fighters in all of 1943 and curtailed deep penetration missions after 2d Schweinfurt. It lost 1124 bombers to fighters in the first six months of 1944 alone (and 1516 for the year), including 60+ on three missions in March and April. Three groups of P-51s began deep escort during Big Week but did not become pre-eminent in fighter combat until April. However 7 groups of P-47s began using 150-gallon drop tanks during Big Week and scored heavily against the Luftwaffe, as they had in November and December 1943. Claims were 873 Jan-Feb-Mar (about 550 of them to P-47s) and 1110 Apr-May-Jun (about 700 P-51). VIII FC went to a "zone defense", so to speak, for protecting the bombers, sending groups to sectors along the route of the bomber stream to patrol while the bombers flew through it. Until May 1944 more than half these fighters were P-47s (and there were 3 groups of P-38s also). Throw into the mix the strafing of German airfields as well. It was a combined effort of all the 8AF fighters that defeated the Luftwaffe, not just the P-51. (The total split was roughly 900 to 1100 in favor of P-51s) Its effect was long-term, as group after group converted to the Mustang, but by D-Day the Luftwaffe was defeated.--Buckboard 02:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

At lest one of the links is somewhat disingenuous. The link in the first paragraph that is titled "Civilian" leads to the article "Bombing of Dresden." I don't believe that is an appropriate linking. 68.38.100.134 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.100.134 (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed the link, is that better? Are there other concerns? - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 02:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe it's promoting a POV to be referencing one controversial target of the USAAF in the first sentence of the second paragraph of an article about a USAAF airplane. Raising awareness and having a debate is fine or whatever, and maybe a reference to that issue does belong in this article, but not in the introduction. I'm removing the link. jhf 00:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prototype Crash

Hey there, I was about to edit the page, as it indicates that the entire crew was killed when the Model 299 crashed on October 30, 1935. This is not accurate, as some of the crew did survive, as indicated at Air Force Magazine When the Fortress Went Down. What confused me on the edit page is that the text of what I would have tried to insert was already there, although it doesn't show up on the article page. I didn't want to bodge anything up. Cheers. 70.121.239.67 08:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The information is in the reference, so if you click on the little [18] (the reference) it takes you to the bottom of the page, where the info is. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 13:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Queen of the Bombers

Martin Caidin is reported by the publisher of B-17 Bomber Pilot's Flight Operating Manual (Paperback) to have said the B-17 was called "Queen of the Bombers". Anybody have a further reference? What was Caidin basing his comment on? Did he really say this? This WP article was the first time I'd ever seen or heard the term. I doubt Caidin's sources. Binksternet (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Much as I loved his prose as a lad, Martin Caiden's "history" should be taken with much NaCl - Caiden was a yarnspinner who never let "facts" get in the way of his tale. A notable example of his misinformation was his identification of the surviving "The War Lover" B-17 as later used as a camera ship on "Dr. Strangelove" in 1963. This was so stated in "Everything But the Flak", and then repeated in other histories as "fact". And yet, when the extended DVD of Kubrick's classic was released in the 2000s, a documentary shows that the camera ship was IGN B-17 F-BEEA, an aircraft that had NOTHING to do with the 1962 film. You are so warned.

Mark Sublette (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Copy that. I'm deleting the sentence in question. Perhaps someone will find the the original Caidin source at which time it would be possible to say "Martin Caidin said in xx that the B-17 was called "Queen of the Bombers."" Binksternet (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
My first Caidin was Cyborg (novel) in '72. Very much a yarnspinner's tale and quite enjoyable. Of course, that was back when US$6M seemed like a reasonable amount to spend on bionics for one man. ... o_O ... Much later, I read "A Torch To The Enemy" about the firebombing of Japan, a subject which doesn't need any kind of fictionalization for it to burn vividly in the mind. Still, I should reread that book to see if Caidin stretches history or pulls sources out of his Selectric. Binksternet (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yet another movie

On Dec. 7, 2007, Turner Classic Movies ran the 1943 movie "Air Force". Supposedly a chronicle of one of the B-17's that were flying into Hawaii during the attack on Pearl Harbor. Much dramatic license was taken by inserting Japanese infiltrators shooting at the plane where it landed instead of at its original destination of Hickam Field and Japanese saboteurs in vegetable trucks smashing fighter planes on the ground, though that was only mentioned after the B-17 lands at Hickam. I'd like to know what model(s) of B-17 were used in the movie.

[edit] cool public domain photos

here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/tags/b17/ Northwesterner1 (talk) 07:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

EXCELLENT SOURCE!!! Thanks! — BQZip01 — talk 20:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations and references

There appears to be multiple errors in the cite styles, I have tweaked a few as a start. I intend to correct them little by little. Comments? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 23:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC).