Talk:Aztec cuisine

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	Aztec cuisine has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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February 6, 2008 Good article nominee Listed

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[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of January 2, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Yes.

2. Factually accurate?: A good article must contain in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements. The article contains too few inline references to meet this standard. For instance, the quotation "Our sustenance suffers, ..." and the statements about the value of cacao beans are not attributed.

3. Broad in coverage?: Yes.

4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.

5. Article stability? Yes.

6. Images?: Yes. However, the caption of the "Spirulina" image lacks the reference to its source that the other images have. Sandstein (talk) 14:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far.— Sandstein (talk) 14:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

2. I'll bolster the references for the quote and some other things when I get access to Coe when the university libary opens again next week.

6. The facsimile of the Florentine Codex is in the same library as Coe. I'll check the folio number next week.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add a further concern: the article uses only two different secondary sources and does not discuss at all which primary sources the information rest on. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to find more works on Aztec cuisine, but Coe and Ortiz de Ortellano were the only ones I could find. To the best of my knowledge there isn't all that much written on the subject. Coe's in particular draws on many other writers and is fairly recent.

Exactly what kind of discussion of primary sources are we talking about here?

Peter ^Isotalo 15:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources on Aztec duisine are predominantly two: the Florentine Codex and knowledge of modern indigenous cuisine extrapolated to the precolumbian situation. This should be mentioned and discussed. Plus ideally the information provided should be traced to one of those sources.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 14:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The Florentine Codex is crucial, yes, but there are also plenty of accounts from Spanish conquistadors and missionaries. There's probably a lot to be extrapolated from ethnological studies of modern Mexican cuisine, but Coe focuses mostly on texts and archaeological evidence. As far as I can tell, source are specified throughout the text, but I don't feel a lengthy discussion of primary sources is within the scope of this article.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Note I have to concentrate on studies for about two weeks. A reprieve until after January 21 would be greatly appreciated.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long lead

To me, this article seems to have an excessively long lead (the bit before the first main heading). I have neither the time nor the expertise to improve it, but thought I would note it here so that other editors may have a chance at improving it. me_and (talk) 01:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed some information about beverages which was is repeated in the main body of the article. Does it still seem too long?

Peter ^Isotalo 19:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination passed

Because the issues mentioned above have generally been addressed, the article has passed good article nomination. Congratulations! Sandstein (talk) 06:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I appreciate the input.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Aztecs Legal age for drinking was 60 yrs old , or else they would be sentanced to death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.8.175.195 (talk) 13:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blowing on maize??

An Aztec woman blowing on maize before putting in the cooking put, so that it will not fear the fire. Florentine Codex, late 16th century.

Fellow Mesoamericanists: To my eye, the squigglies in front of the woman in the Florentine Codex look like speech scrolls, and that she is actually speaking or (in my opinion) singing. I have added a "^{[citation needed]}" to the caption. Any insight anyone?? Madman (talk) 21:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Read the paragraph right next to the picture. It's explained in Coe. There is nothing in there about singing or talking to maize before it is cooked.

Peter ^Isotalo 03:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

We should verify this in the florentine codex not in Coe. It does indeed look like speech scrolls. Coe is not a particularly reliable translator of Nahuatl. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 01:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm also thinking that Coe might have misinterpreted. How can we check with the Codex?? Madman (talk) 03:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The Florentine Codex is written in Nahuatl and Spanish as far as I know. There are fascimile editions and I'm pretty sure there are modern Spanish editions. The picture I scanned has a folio reference you can look up if you wish to make your own conclusions.

Peter ^Isotalo 06:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Btw, is there any reason we should believe that breathing and speaking would be illustrated differently? Are the examples of "breathing scrolls"?

Peter ^Isotalo 04:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly a possibility! I'm hoping Maunus, Nahuatl scholar that he is, will have some insight into how to check the Codex itself. Thanks for your concern, Peter. Madman (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have trouble getting hold of a facsimile, I can get you photos of selected folios from the edition at Stockholm University Library.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

being in the outback at the moment I cannot check the florentine codex untill July :( .·Maunus· ·ƛ· 20:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

July is fine with me. It's not a big deal -- obviously the woman is forcing air out in conjuction with the maize, and the details of how she's doing it can wait. What "outback" are you in, pray tell, Maunus ol' chap? And how do you have an Internet connection?  : ) Madman (talk) 20:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Im in Hueyapan, Morelos and I probably could find a copy of the florentine codex, but I would need to know where to look and it would cost me a few days of travel. In Denmark I know where to go. Hopefully July will also see uploads of new photos from Chalcatzingo, Xochicalco, Tenayuca, Santa Cecilia Acatitlán, Malinalco and the Templo Mayor.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey Maunus, hope the research travel 'n' all is going well, & look forward to seeing those pics.

It looks like Sophie Coe gets that quote about Aztec women breathing on maize so it "would not fear the fire" directly from the Dibble & Anderson translation of the Florentine, so the words at least can be considered authoritative.

But that passage comes from Book 5 (p.184), so I guess the question is whether this particular illustration from the codex accompanies the text, or whether it comes from another place in the codex (in which case, it might be depicting something else).

The img is captioned as coming from Book 1 (f.347R) of the Florentine - can this be validated? I thought Book 1 of the codex was where various Aztec deities were described, and that it did not contain observations on daily custom and the like...?

On a side note, looking around I was interested to find a current syllabus on Ancient Middle America from University of Minnesota, Duluth, which refers to and uses some of the material in this article (see here), including this very illustration and its caption(!) --cjllw ʘ TALK 07:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)