Talk:Azeri Waffen SS Volunteer Formations

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Contents

[edit] Azizbekov

There’s a lot of POV editing made by User:Azizbekov. The book that he quoted mentions Azerbaijan only once, and in the following context:

In the summer of 1944 a decision had been taken to create a Turkestani volunteer unit for the Waffen-SS, and existing Turkestani volunteers serving within the German Army, along with their German commanding officer were transferred en masse into the Waffen-SS. In addition, volunteers from Azerbaijan, Kirghistan, Uzbekistan and Tadzhikistan were absorbed into this new unit which took on the title Ost Musselmanisehes Division der SS (Eastern Moslem Division of the SS).

Note that the book calls this unit Turkestani, however Azizbekov changed Turkestani to Azerbaijani-Turkic. The reasons for such POV editing are not clear. The part about atrocities is an OR as well. The book only says:

During the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising in July 1944, these Moslem volunteers were attached to the infamous Dirlewanger Brigade, notorious for the hideous atrocities committed wherever it operated. Nowhere near sufficient recruits were forthcoming to bring the division up to its nominal strength.

No particular mention of Azerbaijanis is made in the book, while Azizbekov misquoted the source again. The picture of mufti of Jerausalem says that he is pictured with “Soviet Muslim volunteers in German army in Berlin” [1], Azizbekov changed that to “Azerbaijani members of the Waffen-SS”. I would like to ask third party users to check this article for neutrality. --Grandmaster 11:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


I do not understand why I am attacked by a second user now for writing about Azerbaycan-Germany connection. One user already tried to get another article deleted. Azerbaycanis did important thing to try liberate their homeland from Soviet teror, but we must not glorify nazis, and write article so polish and other hurt popeple underrstand. I am new to wiki so this is confuseing.Azizbekov 16:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I re-add info and change some word. Maybe grandmaster is right. I am interested in this period of azeri history - I just did not want to sound I am naxi and support this. On image of the mufti, I find it here http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/exploitingbalkan.htm and it says they are azeri, you can also agree by his arm patch. Azizbekov 16:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not find the image of mufti at that URL. Stop making POV edits. Grandmaster 04:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you missed it. Scroll down on this page, I see it fine: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/exploitingbalkan.htm and an enlargement: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/images/exploitingbalkan/162.htm

Is it ok now?Azizbekov 05:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Also, you can see their Azerbaijani patch very clearly, right?Azizbekov 05:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Deleted unsourced POV and changed the heading to "Participation" since there was no sourced info on any atrocities. Azizibekov, please provide sources. Ehud 05:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

All sources have been provided, it is not my job to make you read it, go read on the massacre of poles, or maybe you are OK with Nazi activity?Azizbekov 05:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehud is right. You add this paragraph to the article:
First they took part in massacre of 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula.
And cite no source for this info. Is it your original research or you can back up this statement with relialble sources? --Grandmaster 06:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Azizbekov, I am acting in accord with Wiki rules. You indicate the unsourced information about alleged human right abuse record and providing unsourced numbers. This makes it unacceptable with Wikipedia rules. [2]
Coming to my national origin and your comment on my history, I will not tolerate that insulting attitude. I would appreciate if Administrators could warn the user for starting personal attacks on my national identity and making sarcastic remarks on my ancestors[3].
Nothing makes me a fake Jew. This article is not made "Nazi friendly". It would have been Nazi friendly if I deleted any information relating to extermination of Jews, Polish or any other ethnicities for that matter.
If sources for the part of article I removed are provided by you, it would come into accord with Wikipedia rules. You can't just get the numbers out of nowhere and post them into the article, OR get them from some source which claims there have been massacres by Nazis, AND relate it to Azeris serving in German Army. For now, I will revert it to previous version until the sources are provided. Ehud 06:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Sources are not provided again and Azizbekov refuses to do so. This is against Wikipedia regulations. Ehud 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


You are doing nothing according to wikipedia rules, nor showing any compassion for the suffering and indignity of Poles and some Jews who were in Warsaw in 1944. Calling you a fake jew when you really are one is a not of fact not a personal attack. Again, I cannot force you read to sources, only provide them. I added some more and hope this time you will read them.Azizbekov 05:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Azizbekov, I do follow Wikipedia rules. Again, you can jump back and forth trying hard to present me as a "fake Jew", this does not and will not change my ethnicity.
I made several changes to your contributions to this article. Below are the explanations:
* You're trying very hard to present the Azerbaijanis as animals thus calling the heading "Murderous crew"; I suppose that's your primary target. I changed the heading of the article to Participation of Azerbaijani conscripts in operations in Poland for the following reasons:
1) The section talks about Azerbaijani brigades' attachment to Dirlewanger Brigade describing its participation even though nowhere in sources does it describe your additions such as "During the Warsaw Uprising in July, this unit was attached to the infamous Dirlewanger Brigade, notorious for atrocities wherever it operated". Azerbaijani battalions may or may not have participated in specific actions within Dirlewanger Brigade; therefore your addition "wherever operated" should be excluded;
2) The sources I requested for the following text (Dirlewanger Brigade took part in massacre of 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula.) relating it to Azerbaijanis were not presented. All you did is refer it to a source describing the events which I appreciate, yet again nowhere in the source does it mention Azerbaijanis per se. Now, I am not saying that Azerbaijani conscripts may have not participated. It is just logical to refer to a source where the Azerbaijanis are mentioned, if you indicate they have committed atrocities according to this specific source;
3) Azerbaijanis per se were not called "murderous crew" as you would like to label them. This is an allegation. The source clearly states "..."The 29th Division of Waffen SS Rona" (Russian anti-Communist formation that under the command of Miziestlaw Kaminski, SS Brigadenfuhrer, left Russia together with the German Army), two Azerbaijan Battalions, and also Ukranians, Cossacks and Turkmenians. They were the "murderous crew" (as even Germans called them) who raped and shot women-even those who were lying in hospitals"[1] Therefore, the quote is either an alleged opinion that is applied to one of the groups of ethnicity, or is applied to all groups mentioned in the source but definitely not specifically to Azerbaijanis only. I corrected the text mentioning the whole quote leaving it to a reader to determine who was called "murderous crew", and not to your biased and choosing judgement
* I made minor corrections to the quotes from Memoirs of Lieutenant Thieme. First I italicized all of them for being a quote/excerpt from memoirs and in the beginning of the quotes indicated whose memoirs this text belongs to. Second, I added a sentence about Hitler's orders on Warsaw[2]. Ehud 19:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Azizbekov, the picture that you claim shows Azeris in Warsaw actually shows Armenians in Greece: [4] So it should be moved to an appropriate article. --Grandmaster 05:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Grandmaster. These picture actually is a picture of Armenian SS soldiers in Greece. I removed the picture. Ehud 06:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Grandmaster, lets add the picture to Armenian SS article. because Ar man from panaryan.com forum is notorious for his credibility. VartanM 07:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I don’t really think it should be moved anywhere, it is just the credibility of online sources that provide various descriptions of the same two pictures is not that good, therefore both should not be used here. Grandmaster 07:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, I think this is a new low. I wasn't expecting you to go there. Not only retrieving the information from panaryan which alone isn’t a big deal. What is a big deal is that you have actually searched Armenian legion, because the link you provide is an Armenia+legion search result high lining those two words. You accessed it by that search. But its search engine is not available which means that someone has to register and login to have access to it. I don't know right now how I should take this knowing that you have bothered visiting a racist white supremacist site, registering an account to then have to search Armenian legion to find something to sling at Armenians. I wonder how hard was it for you to find a white supremacist forum or if you were already registered there and what you were expecting to find. That is actually what poisons the atmosphere and against the spirit. But you know what is threatening? It is that at this point, I am not even surprised. Go figure why... - Fedayee 23:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Funny, do you really think I could register in a place like that? One can find the info without actually visiting those websites. Grandmaster 04:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Funny, because yes. I have obtained no results at all while searching this: http://www.panaryan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2758&highlight=Armenian+legion on Google without hits. It is not only a finding, the finding itself high lined the term Armenian and Legion which shows that it was clicked from the forum search engine hits. But the search engine is not accessible when someone is not logged. In any event, you provided material that to obtain, one has to have an account and the hit itself shows that the word Armenian legion was searched. The question still remains and this disgust me. - Fedayee 22:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I’m not gonna disclose my sources. I can only say that I never registered there or even visited that website. Grandmaster 05:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Description of Insignia

Not a part of the above discussion... I noted that the image of the patch/insignia does not match the textual description, which is blue-red-blue with a crescent and a five-pointed star. The patch I see is blue-red-green, with a crescent and an eight-pointed star. My inclination is to do a minor edit to make the textual description conform to the image... unless I'm misunderstanding, and the patch described in the text is something other than what the image shows. Anyone who knows is encouraged to enlighten me on this... Xenophon777 19:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

This article is created by the sock of the banned user with certain motives. I have not seen any source that mentions any SS-Waffengruppe Aserbaidschan. There was a Turkestani unit, which had volunteers from Muslim people of USSR, and I suggest to move this article to Turkestani Waffen SS or whatever the correct title is. --Grandmaster 07:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

For now I reverted the article to the version that existed before the banned user started editing it. Grandmaster 11:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What type of rationale is that? You havent heard of it therefore an entire article must be wiped out? There are sourced statements within this article. Also, the version you reverted to also says Waffen SS, so I dont see the logic in simply removing a bunch of information to revert to another simpler version that still says Waffen SS, except with any detail.Hajji Piruz 15:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Banned users are not allowed to edit Wikipedia in any form, their edits are considered vandalism and should be reverted regardless of their quality. You know the rules, yet you support the banned user by restoring his edits. --Grandmaster 16:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Who is the banned user? What are you talking about? Irregardless of who this person is, why remove so much information, its all sourced. If it makes a difference, imagine that a non-banned user had inserted that information.Hajji Piruz 20:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, in the beginning I thought that he was a sockpuppet but this user is not acting like Artaxiad at all, Robert could be a possibility but I doubt it. We do not know who’s sockpuppet it is, maybe they could check if it is an open proxy because the uses of open proxy could justify a ban. They have as of yet not performed any checkuser neither. So the ban is not per policy since the user, as provocative as he might be, wasn't vandalising or doing anything like that. Before banning a user, there should be clarification on who's sock he is given that everyone here is convinced that Ehud is an incarnation of Adil but Ehud is not banned regardless. There are more similarities between Adil and Ehud than this new user with any prior banned member. - Fedayee 22:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I second Fedayee, as of right now we don't know if Azizbekov was a sock, and if he was, we don't know who the sockpuppeteer was. That leaves a very small possibility of him being a genuine new user, and being wrongfully blocked as a sock puppet. VartanM 23:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Sockpuppeteer is Fadix. Azizbekov’s IP points to Vancouver. Enough said. Edits of banned users should be reverted on spot regardless if they are good or bad. That’s what the rules require. --Grandmaster 05:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Where did you get Azizbekov's IP? and Fadix isn't the only person living in Vancouver, thats if he actually lives in Vancouver. I think this whole sock thing needs to be cleared out before we can continue. It was a big mistake on the administrators part not to revile who the sockpuppeteer was before banning him. VartanM 05:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
He forgot to login when editing this article, and Fadix lives in Canada by his own admission. Obvious case. Grandmaster 06:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Show me one source that uses the term “Azeri Waffen SS Volunteer Formations”. This article is clearly POV and OR, as there’s no source ever mentioning any formation with such a name. There was Turkestani unit of SS, where Azeris were also included along with other Muslims of former USSR. --Grandmaster 05:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no interest in searching Azeri SS, and my interest in this article and subject is zero. I'm only here because somehow you're trying to connect this to Armenians, which is a assumption of bad faith on your part. VartanM 05:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I’m not trying to connect this to Armenians, you are assuming bad faith by making such claims. Grandmaster 06:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It wasn't I who registered at a white supremacist site to search for Armenian Legion. VartanM 06:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I did not. And what if I did, that’s not against the Wikipedia rules. But the link was given to me by someone over the email. He is not Azeri, btw. He is just another Wikipedia editor. And the point was not connecting this to Armenians, the point was to clarify that people in the picture were not Azeris. Grandmaster 06:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Here you're reverting to Atabek who added that Armenians and Georgians were involved too, clearly trying to connect Armenians to it. I wont even mention the garbage web site you used as a reference. VartanM 07:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
So what? What’s wrong with mentioning that such units were formed from other people of South Caucasus as well? It is an accurate info. Grandmaster 07:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is an accurate information but like Alex Bakharev said it wasn't only the Armenians, Georgians and Azerbaijanis. Others from USSR joined too. Information about Armenian and Georgian involvement in the Nazi Germany has no place in History of Azerbaijan article. Also the choice of the reference was in bad faith. VartanM 08:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That's BS, Fadix lives in Montreal, which is far away from Vancouver (on the other side of Canada to be exact). You can try throwing dirt on him to not avail. As for the SS unit, check Google books, you might just as well check the quotes from the German archivist on the Armenish SS talkpage which cites each group. - Fedayee 23:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I failed to read the rest of the answers... Please quit this game Grandmaster, it's an insult to our intelligence. There is no such non-Azeri user uninvolved with us here who would have an account on that hateful white supremacist site and search Armenian legion to provide you the link. If you don't want to be honest just don't say anything rather than making up stories because if it wasn't you, which I am ready to believe, it was either Adil or Atabek who are into this kind of hateful behavior. This is just as much as your distasteful accusations against Fadix and you lying about it. The only IP which corresponds with Azizbekov’s edits and articles point to California, home of the largest Armenian Community in the entire American continent. This convincibly proves Fadix’s innocence because it is obvious that the IP is the same person. Either provide the IP which incriminates Fadix or stop making up stuff to discredit him. If you think that while he knows we are documenting POV pushing, he will give any arguments for you to make accusations of POV pushing and distract arbitrators’ attention from your and Atabek’s POV pushing, then after interacting with him that long, it seems you haven't known him that much…

And while it is true that posting that link was not against Wikipedia's rules, everything is not about Wiki rules but also creating the environment where we can peacefully co-exist and discuss, but with your current behaviour, you are only burning more fuel. - Fedayee 00:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Banned user

Azizbekov is a sock of a banned user. By Wikipedia rules, banned users should not be editing the article, so Hajji Piruz, Pejman47, stop readding the material added by a sock. VartanM and Fedayee, please, follow WP:SOCK before commenting. If you have questions regarding sockpuppeteer, this should clear them [5]. The comment made by an admin clearly says: "obvious cases don't need a checkuser", that is listed are Fadix, Artaxiad and Robert599. I would think a better approach would be to actually do research and contribute to article with references, rather than defend edits by a sock. Atabek 05:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad is a white supremacist adherent who would pride himself documenting Armenian association, NOT Azerbaijani and you're insane (no insult intended, don't report me) if you think this could be Fadix. The only person who could have done it is Robert but the administrators have suspected Artaxiad instead which I doubt could be the case. It is also very plausible that, like he's said, he is just an IP user who happened to register to post. - Fedayee 05:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
This is what the arbcom clerk told me: [6] So edits of sock accounts should be reverted, and I’m sure that it is Fadix based on location. --Grandmaster 07:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure, Moon is made out of cheese, but I have no proof. I believe your speculation that Azizbekov was Fadix is wrong. --VartanM 07:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


This article is full of mistakes The first National comittee was organized around Rasulzade The second one around Fatalibeyli Azeri Waffen SS never wore this sleeve , only Azerbaijan Legions wore this sleeve. The one depicted is the 1943 Aserb Legion sleeve with crescent and albmonds The 1942 original one had only the blue –red –green colors. About the picture”The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (wearing white turban) meets Azerbaijani members of the Waffen-SS.” . This is wrong those guys are not SS .The officer in the middle of this pic is Major Fatalibeyli Dudanginsky from the Aserbaijan Legion photo was taken in 1943 in Berlin during the first Azeri national congress. About Warsaw ,this is very vague ,there were three Aserb. bataillons and one Azeri Btl from Bergmann units , warsawuprising.com is considered non partial by specialists. This is not serious. Zulfugar 19/08/07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zulfugar (talk • contribs) 13:51:20, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

Another remark about the Warsaw uprising section "The Azerbaijani battalion or the “infamous plunderer’s brigade of Kaminski" The azeris were attached to the SS-Sturmbrigade DIRLEWANGER that included the Aserbeidschanische Feld Bataillon I./111 and the Ostmuselmanisches SS Regiment. They WERE NOT UNDER COMMAND of the Kaminsky 29 SS Division (Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RОNА) The version of the german witness is not reliable. Zulfugar 86.199.86.222 16:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

19/008/07

I changed the heading from "War crimes" to "Participation of Azerbaijani conscripts in operations in Poland", as there is no substantial proof that namely Azerbaijanis committed war crimes. Ehud 17:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] KAMINSKY or DIRLEWANGER

After some researches I have deleted the very dubious "Hans Thieme, an intelligence lieutenant of the 203rd Division" "The Azerbaijani battalion or the “infamous plunderer’s brigade of Kaminski“

Unfortunately ,no Azerbaijani under Kaminsky orders.They were 1,700 soldiers of the Waffen-SS Brigade RONA (Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya), a Russian collaborating force headed by Waffen Brigadeführer Bronislaw Kaminski. The RONA brigade, at the time of the Warsaw Uprising, was comprised mostly of Russians with Belorussian and Ukrainian minorities. Most were volunteers, ex-POWs, and Red Army deserters. When Warsaw uprising broke on August 1, 1944 RONA was stationed in Silesia (vicinity of Rattibor - Raciborz) and Muensingen manoeuver/training ground in Wurttemberg. On August 2nd, 1700 of unmarried men has been selected for action in Warsaw with 2 regiments supplied with 2x122mm and 2x76mm guns formed out of them. It operated, under the operational command of deputy Brig.Staff Major Yuri Frolov, mostly in Ochota district area, then closed in to the center of the city (Dzieciatka Jezus hospital at Nowogrodzka Street)


Wola killings were mostly inflicted by elements of Kampfgruppe Reinefarth that assaulted the area held by the insurgents from the west. It is hard to determine which specific units are to be held responsible but the main 'cleansing' tasks has been assigned to Angriffsgruppe Dirlewanger with following forces: 2 Grenadier Batallions (I & II) of SS Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger + Aserbeidschanische Feld Bataillon I./111 (com. Hptm. Werner Scharrenberg) + Ostmuselmanisches SS Regiment (without Batallion III) II Btl. "Bergmann" - [without 7. Komp.] Ltn. Mertelsmann Gendermerie Operationsgruppe Walter (2 gendarmerie Komp.) Komp. I & II of Aserb. Feld Btl. I/111 Anti-aircraft battery of 80th Regiment Sturmpanzer-Kompanie z.b.V. 218 [8x Brummbär] Hptm. Kellmann 1/2 of machine gun 4.Kompanie of Aserb. Feld Btl. I/111 1. Platoon of 654. Pioniere Batallion 1 KRONE flamethrower unit (8x Flammenwerfer 41)

Souce http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/niemcy%20_w_powstaniu_warszaws2.htm#reck

but also Munoz book about Dirlewanger and "Der Osttürkische Waffen-Verband der SS". Roland Pfeiffer 26/08/07Zulfugar 11:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed the link to deleted image. Grandmaster 10:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision of Azeri Waffen SS Volunteers Formations

Gentlemen, I am sorry, I really had to delete everything and start back from the beginning. I will explain the main reasons

“During World War II, estimation of Azerbaijanis fighting for Nazi Germany range from as few as 18,000[2] to as many as 35,000[3]. For these purposes, the National Committee, headed by Muhammed Israfil-bey[4], was created. Azerbaijan was also represented in the so-called Caucasian People's Council by Abbas Bey Atam-Alibekov[5] ».

From Ostministerium G.Von Mende and Ismayil Akber Personnal archives the 01/10/1944 the official number of Azeris who “enroled” in the German Army was 38.588. We even know that 124 musicians were in the brass band and 67 in the National Komitee in Berlin. The first National Committee was formed around Rasulzade who started backtracking very quickly.The second one around Magomed Israfilbey and the third one around Fatalibeyli Dudanginsky.

“Azeri SS regiments wore a blue-red-blue sleeve ensigns with a crescent and a five-pointed star and the inscription "ASERBAIDSCHAN" over the ensign while Azeri soldiers of the so-called Ostlegionen had a chlorine edging on collar and sleeve, surrounding the emblem”. Again bad info ,Azeri Waffen SS never wore this sleeve , only Azerbaijan Legions wore this sleeve. The one depicted is the 1943 Aserb Legion sleeve with crescent. The 1942 original one had only the blue red green colors.

I did the genealogy from the Ostmuselmanische SS regiment ,then the Ostturkischen Waffen Verband der SS to the Kaukasicher Waffen Verbande der SS


About “excerpts from memoirs of Hans Thieme, an intelligence lieutenant of the 203rd Division of Wehrmacht » . First: the 203. Infanterie-Division was set up in October 1944 three month after the Warsaw uprising. Second "The Azerbaijani battalion or the “infamous plunderer’s brigade of Kaminski“ Unfortunately ,no Azerbaijanis under Kaminsky orders.They were 1,700 soldiers of the Waffen-SS Brigade RONA (Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya), a Russian collaborating force headed by Waffen Brigadeführer Bronislaw Kaminski. The RONA brigade, at the time of the Warsaw Uprising, was comprised mostly of Russians with Belorussian and Ukrainian minorities. Third “ I then took the two to their “Colonel“ Kaminski himself who, after I established the facts of the case, gave them a reprimand and then sent them away. A savage Caucasian character!”Kaminsky was Polish not Caucasian. I deleted this part

Now I have to do the same thing about the Azebaijani Legion page which is very “vague”

Zulfugar 16:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

"Gazifikator ????" improve does not mean erasing part of a page.Zulfugar 19:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

this page should be deleted no sufficent reason to keep all inaccurate no reliable sources only forums and other nonsense, but i am open to your opionins.

[edit] Livejournals and forums

Why does anyone think that these make good external links? Even worse, most of them are in forran people babble, not English. Hermione is a dude (talk) 05:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unrelevant

Most of the unrelevant stuff added by Zulfugar fellow will be removed in a day or two. If no-one objects. --VartanM (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? He significantly improved this article. --Grandmaster (talk) 06:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DBABA

Nice try DBaba but….. You “wrote” or copy from old versions of this page “The SS-Waffengruppe Aserbaidschan was a Waffen-SS formation composed of Azerbaijanis. These Azerbaijani troops were originally Soviet prisoners of war who opted to serve, under threat of starvation, in Wermacht units like the Azerbaijani Legion until they were transferred into the Waffen-SS. The unit participated in the infamous Wola massacre, in 1944.”

The Waffengruppe Aserbeidschan was created 30.12.1944 (SS-FHA, Amt II OrgAbt Ia/II, TgbNr. 5248/44 gKdos vom 30.12.1944), and was a part of the Kaukasischen Waffen-Verbandes der SS along with Stab Waffen-Gruppe Georgien, Stab Waffen-Gruppe Armenien and Stab Waffen-Gruppe Nordkaukasus .This unit did not participate to the Wola killings that happened from August 5 to August 8 1944 five months before.

Second Azeri SS regiments wore a blue-red-blue sleeve ensigns with a crescent and a five-pointed star and the inscription "ASERBAIDSCHAN" over the ensign while Azeri soldiers of the so-called Ostlegionen had a chlorine edging on collar and sleeve, surrounding the emblem.

This sleeve has never been worn by Azeri SS the one you are talking about is the second version of the sleeve worn by the Azeri Legions from the Whermacht .SS wore variations of SS insignia on uniform to indicate non-German status

They used the white stripes/red field system standardized by the Wehrmacht 06/42 for "Osttruppen" volunteers and may have used SS rank collar tabs with blank, black "runes" patch. For propaganda purposes, the Germans illustrated many more rank tab systems and arm shields than actually existed in the field.

About War crimes in Poland Wola massacres happened started the five of august 1944 not in July Kaminsky was not in Wola but in Ochota ,another part of town.Kaminsky was a Pole not a Caucasian and they were NO Azeris under his command

“Hans Thieme an intelligence lieutenant of the 203rd Division” The 203. Infanterie-Division was set up in October 1944 three month after the Warsaw uprising. But it could be the 203 Security Division unfortunately this division was not in Poland at this time


Enjoy 86.210.1.127 (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

"Nice try"? "Enjoy"? Wow, you're quite emotional about this. It's not something I know very much about, but I do know that historian of Polish studies Norman Davies says that Azerbaijanis served under Erich von dem Bach in the Wola massacre. Perhaps this was prior to the formation of the actual group in question, and belongs in a section on the background of the soldiers in this group?
I'm not really interested in this, I hope you can relax and work this out yourself, in an honest way. DBaba (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article in bad need of an expert

This topic is in need of attention from an expert on the subject.
The section or sections that need attention may be noted in a message below.

please assess the verifiability of the claims and edit history of this article as it seems the editing has been less then neutral--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree with you Zulfugar (talk) 16:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)