Talk:Azerbaijan Democratic Republic

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[edit] Musavat references

I would like to attract the attention of administrators and visitors to this matter. Every time I edit a page, ranging from Musavat, Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, Azerbaijan, History of the name Azerbaijan to Safavid Dynasty, User:Azerbaijani keeps inserting "pan-Turkist and pan-Islamist Musavat" referencing a flag website that does not say so, and Armenian sources of Prof. Hovanissian, who is clearly a POV source in case of Azerbaijan. So, please, address the issue. My belief is that the quote is relevant only on Musavat page which gives a long account of nature of Musavat Party. So inserting this grossly misinterpreted and POV quotes on every page is clearly POV attack tactic. I made major contributions to the article with scholarly references few days ago, yet again this gross and out of context quote is inserted. I ask Azerbaijani to justify the placement of this quote with POV references on this page. Atabek 16:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

You do not own wikipedia, and I can insert sourced information where ever it is relevant. Secondly, Adil baguirov asked me to put those sources in.Azerbaijani 17:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I copy these excerpts from the post of Alan Kaim, owner of milliondollarbabies.com at the Talk:Azerbaijan:

None of my summaries are meant as reference material since I have not listed any particular sources, and this should be obvious.
The only rational voice in the crowd seems to be Grandmaster, who stated that, "And as it was pointed out, sources like "milliondollarbabies.com" are not academic, and should not be used to support such allegations as those included in the article." [1]

As you can see from the above, the owner of the website objects to the use of his website as a reference in wikipedia and states that his resource is not meant as a reference material. He agreed with me that his website should not be used for such purposes. Despite that Azerbaijani keeps on including his claims with reference to that website. It is time to stop, or I will have to contact the website owner, so that he spoke with the wiki admins to put an end to this abuse. Hovanissian is also not acceptable as a reference in this particular article for evident bias. And Roshvald, which also was used as a source, does not support your claims. So Azerbaijani, please stop it already. Grandmaster 10:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more about musavat

first of all 6 sources that you mention is either biased or not profeesional or you distorted them. as mentioned above by another user in some of this sorces there is not such references. million dollar babies is not a valid source to be cited, and please go to Rasulzade talkpage where a user clled Adil bagirov explained you that How Musavat is not panturkist and panislamist. and if you are not biased and if you think you are a fighter for a justice, I ask you to show a panislamist or panturkist clause or provision in its first and only covenant accepted in 1917. Elsanaturk 22:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

No POV or OR. Your are obviously a sock/sockpuppeteer. You just removed information that is based on SIX sources, from authors such as: Jacob M. Landau, Firouzeh Mostashari, Aviel Roshwald, and Richard G. Hovannisian.
Here are more sources: Disaster and Developement: The politics of Humanitarian Aid by Neil Middleton and Phil O'keefe P. 132 , The Armenian-Azerbaijan Conflict: Causes and Implications by Michael P. Croissant P. 14 , Troubled Waters: The Geopolitics of the Caspian Region by R. Hrair Dekmejian & Hovann H. Simonian P. 63. Its not my fault that you refuse to accept facts, but I have brought an overwhelming amount of sources that you cannot deny.Azerbaijani 22:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not a sockpuppet, I have only one wiki account, and if you have any evidence go and report me, i am waiting for your report! go! can you say me, will you ever edit and add smth neutral about Azerbaijan? in every page you are present you are distorting them. and again, SHOW ME A PANTURKIST CLAUSE OR PROVISION IN MUSAVAT COVENANT!. otherwise your biased persian and armenian scholars, out-of context citation can't prove anything. Elsanaturk 23:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
do not take citations out of context just read this huge academic book covering Musavat's history in two volumes http://kitabxana.org/musavatoruclu.htm and have a look at this site http://isagambar.az/musavat-tarixi-gen.htm Elsanaturk 23:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


Azerbaijani, please, refrain from attacking users by baselessly calling them sockpuppeteers. This is really non-constructive and does not contribute to improvement of Wiki articles. You seem to have made no contribution to this article in particular, but only involved in reverts, edit wars and insertion of a single irrelevant quote. Now:
1. Please, provide exact quotes from the articles you indicated, where it says that Musavat was pan-Turkist or pan-Islamist. Also, quotes from Armenian authors, such as Dekmejian and Simonian, as well as Hovanissian and Giragossian are not acceptable, as those are clearly POV and are very biased against Azerbaijan or anything related to it. This is told even by Dr. Kazemzadeh, indeed a top expert on ADR period. Michael Croissant, with all due respect to him, falls into the same category as those above mentioned. So your sources must be impartial, and must be scholarly.
2. The program of Musavat is posted on its Wiki page Musavat, thanks to some contributors. No one denies that Musavat played with ideas of cultural Turkism (not pan-Turkism, Musavat did not aspire the creation of Turanic empire, but only revival of cultural Turkism ideas in Azerbaijan). Its program, again on Musavat page, clearly spells that it desires equal rights to all Muslim of the world, no where does it call for creation of Muslim empire either.
So your references to pan-Turkic or pan-Islamic do not hold water, as Musavat simply did not have a plan of creation of a super empire of Turkic or Islamic peoples. Atabek 23:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musavat again and again

Azerbaijani, I'll undo your edits untill you'll bring a panturkist or panislamist clause in Musavat Covenant of 1917 Elsanaturk 23:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have brought many sources. YOu obviously have no respect for Wikipedia. You will be blocked again if you continue this way.Azerbaijani 01:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
You cannot block me! I can be blocked by administrators if I'll violate 3rr rule in this disputed content, but I have not violated, and do not think to do so. Aand again I'll undo your THAT edit until you'll bring any panturkist and/or panislamist clause in Musavat Covenant of 1917 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elsanaturk (talk • contribs) 01:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Edit warring

Hello! I have protected this page after reports of edit warring on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Apparently, one Elsanaturk is removing information justified by multiple sources, and continues to question the material even after being presented sources. I'd like to see Elsanaturk speak on his or her behalf. Other comments related to the matter would also be good. —Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 04:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I just want to say thanks, and also that this is not the first time these users simply remove heavily sourced information.Azerbaijani 05:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Please check the first post on top of this page, Azerbaijani's quotes (those I checked so far before he added new ones) are irrelevant and do not support his claims. Moreover, owners of the resources he refers to personally object to such abuse of their material. Grandmaster 08:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
That is incorrect. All of the sources say pan Turkist when referring to the Musavat party. You also admitted that hte Musavat party was pan Turkist!Azerbaijani 15:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
They don't. I said that Musavat initially supported pan-Turkic (not-Panturkist) ideas, but eventually became an Azerbaijani nationalist party. Moreover, I supported this by sources, which you now try to misinterpret. Also, please explain why you keep on adding milliondollarbabies.com back to the article? The owner of the website told you that you should not do that, he said that I was right by saying that it should not be used. Elsanaturk was absolutely right when he removed it from the article. Grandmaster 16:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
There are more sources than just the million dollar baby, and your still stuck on that? We can remove that one source, but that does not change the fact that this information will stay and that it is heavily sourced. The Musavat party was Pan Turkist, and Mahmud Rasulzadeh was a pan Turk. Dont forget that he spent the last years of his life involved in pan Turkist activity in Turkey.Azerbaijani 18:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

User "Azerbaijani". I said to you bring a clause from Musavat covenant, you did not bring, but you are holding your biased sources as a blind. instead I bring clauses from that covenanat which show that you are absolutely prejudiced and intentionally harm our articles.

Covenant of the Party of the Turkish Federalists “Musavat” (accepted in the party conference held on 26-31 October, 1917) Sources: Balayev A. Azerbaydjanskoye natsional’no-demokraticheskoye dvijeniye. 1917-1920. B, 1990, pp 74-82; “Aydinlig” newspaper, 13 October, 1990.

  • Article 1: The form of the state of Russia should be a federative democratic republic based on principles of the national autonomy.
  • Article 3: All ethnicities having territories of compact inhabiting n any part of Russia should receive national autonomy.Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkistan and Bashkortostan should receive territorial autonomy, Turks living along the Volga and the Crimean Turks should receive cultural autonomy in the case of impossibility of territorial autonomy. The Party considers as its sacred duty to support any non-Turkic ethnicities’ quests for autonomy and help them.
  • Article 4: Ethnicities having no exact territory of compact inhabiting should receive national cultural autonomy. Elsanaturk 19:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] adding Hugh Pope's quote

From: Hugh Pope, "Sons of the conquerors: the rise of the Turkic world", New York: The Overlook Press, 2006, ISBN-10 1-58567-804-X:

"[t]he Azeris did not surrender their brief independence of 1918-20 quickly or easily. As many as 20,000 died resisting what was effectively a Russian reconquest." (p. 116) --AdilBaguirov 02:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adil's additions

I reverted your additions because its obvious POV whats your excuse for changing "Armenian Genocide" to "Armenian massacres in Ottoman Empire" thats very unusual. Artaxiad 02:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not all you did. You restored sources like "milliondollarbabies.com" and others, so I roll it back. If you object to certain wording, change it, but do not add sources that should not be here. Grandmaster 05:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats no excuse for a huge revert. Artaxiad 19:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Although some of my edits, which user:Artaxiad for some reason reverted, have been restored, but not all. First, I don't understand why was this rv'ed: "However, despite Wilson's attitude, on January 12, 1920, the Allied Supreme Council extended de facto recognition to Azerbaijan, along with Georgia, and ahead of Armenia." Not only do I give a more precise date, 12 January, but this wording is preffered to "suddenly" -- why is it "suddenly", when delegations have been working for months to secure that de facto recognition? In native literature, they describe it as "finally", not "suddenly".

Additionally, isn't it an overkill to cite 6 references about Musavat's Pan-whatever ideology? Especially having a "flag" website as reference, looks very much credible and scholarly. Not. :)

Then, Mehmandarov, like Shikhlinsky, was a General (and both were full generals of artillery), and that is both a rank and a title, and should be mentioned, just like other honorific and educational titles and ranks are mentioned in English tradition: "President", "Dr", "Minister", "Secretary", "Prof", etc. Likewise, Shikhlinky was Mehmandarov's Deputy Minister in ADR -- that should be mentioned too. I.e., they were not ordinary generals, but the two highest ranked one's.

Meanwhile, "Armenian genocide" is not relevant to the text and cannot apply to the massacre of Azerbaijanis in March 1918 in Baku. To begin with, neither the word genocide existed, nor have the Armenian casualties been high till then (e.g., even in 1919 article in the London Times, the leader of the Armenian delegation to Paris Peace Conference, Boghos Nubar, wrote about 300,000 deaths - and no mention of Turkish and Kurdish deaths, or Azerbaijani, for that matter), especially considering that Eastern Turkey was occupied by Russians, with the help of Armenians, until 1917 or so. Neither does Encyclopedia Britannica use that description -- they use my wording, "massacres in Ottoman Empire". Finally, and most importantly, that reasoning was NEVER given by Shaumyan, or any Bolshevik or even Dashnak leader! In other words, there is no factual, verifiable basis for this claim. And while there is a reference to p. 14 of Michael Croissant's book, he is not a historian, and it shows -- he writes: "most of them refugees who had fled the Turkish genocide in eastern Anatolia". As you can see, there is no mention of "Armenian genocide". And Prof. Swietochowski does not use the word "genocide" or 'genocidal' anywhere in his book either, according to a Google search. Hence it makes sense to change this POV to a NPOV wording. --AdilBaguirov 08:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are very POV, the text its self never said Armenian massacres in the ottoman empire POV yourself you have inserted.Artaxiad 19:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing POV about my edits -- but yours clearly are, as you admit (not that it matters) that both Swietochowski and Croissant don't use the word "Armenian genocide" or even genocidal. Neither did Shaumyan say this anywhere. --adil 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Once again, neither Swietochowski, nor Croissant use the word "Armenian genocide" -- and it would be completely inappropriate for 1918, especially since it were Armenians who militarily occupied Eastern Turkey at the time, and killed a great many Kurds and Turks, as well as Azerbaijanis. --adil 06:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see a source that claims that the massacre of Azerbaijanis in March was a “revenge for Armenian genocide’. I don’t see other sources agreeing with that. For example, Tadeusz Swietochowski says:
Just as Turkey was poised to become the dominant power in the region, the Baku Dashnakist forces, which included many of the refugees from Anatolia, staged a sudden and unprovoked massacre of the city's Muslims. The debacle lasted from March 31 until April 2 and resulted in at least 3,000 fatalities, many of whom were Iranians. Armenian historians do not offer an explanation for the political calculations behind this move, which was bound to entail terrible retribution, and they hint rather at an uncontrollable emotional outburst. Such an interpretation would confirm the view of the weakness of the Armenian leadership, which had just concluded an agreement with the Muslims on neutrality in their coming confrontation with the Bolsheviks, and they proved to be unable to restrain the rank and file. Likewise, it would confirm the lack of coordination with the Armenian efforts at putting together the Transcaucasian Federation. The immediate beneficiary of the Baku March Days were the Bolsheviks, who seized the opportunity to institute in the city a dictatorship of the proletariat under the name of the Baku Commune. The local Sovnarkom (Council of People's Commissars) was headed by a prominent Armenian Bolshevik, Stepan Shaumian, who proclaimed its undivided loyalty and subordination to Soviet Russia. In the Azeri mind, the Baku Commune became the bitter symbol of the Bolshevik - Armenian collusion born out of the March Days bloodbath.
Grandmaster 06:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the POV/OR sentence added by Hajji Piruz, claiming that ADR adopted its name from Iranian Azerbaijan. This sentence lacks any scholarly basis or source, never did ADR government make such claim nor there is evidence to prove so. Atabek 16:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have a source. I'll source it for sure later.Hajji Piruz 16:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I added and sourced a sentence saying when the nation got its name and by who.Hajji Piruz 20:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Etymology section comes first. I moved the etymology section above the recognition section.Hajji Piruz 18:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Harayarah is an obvious sock puppet or meat puppet, he joined simply to make reverts.Hajji Piruz 18:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Etymology section is absolutely irrelevant to this article. There’s an article about the name, that’s where it should be discussed. This article is not about the name of the country, it is about ADR in 1918. And the claim that the name was chosen by Musavat is baseless, it was selected by the Azeri members of Transcaucasian sejm, where Musavat were not a majority. It is a well known fact, so no need to add inaccurate and POV info to every article which has anything to do with Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 07:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi! As I am concerned about the Azeri issues, someone asked me to get involved in this discussion. As I see, the whole section about the etymology is deleted, but I think it is very relevant and this was the first time the name "Azerbaijan" was used for an entity in the Caucasus. Comparing this matter with the Macedonia naming dispute issue, that is an important matter. There may be two discussion in this topic: 1- What was the former name of that region 2- Do we have to mention this matter in the naming dispute?
Anyway , I think it's reasonable not to delete the whole section until more discussion .--Alborz Fallah 16:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Alborz, this material is irrelevant on ADR page, which is related strictly to Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. The name Azerbaijan applied north of Araxes, in particular in the state of Azerbaijani Atabegs (Atabegan-e Azerbaijan) as well as in writings of Jean Chardin several centuries before 20th. Most importantly 1863 article by British Consul in Persia, Keith Abbott, designates territory north of Araxes as "Russian Azerbaijan", specifically indicating that it borders Caucasus Mountains in the North and extends to Baku and Caspian in the East. But in any case, etymology section is absolutely irrelevant here, so you're welcome to discuss these on three other pages where this same paragraph is inserted and is need of NPOV. Atabek 06:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This material is highly relevant as this was the first time an entity in the Caucasus was called Azerbaijan. This has everything to do with the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. I reverted the massive removal of information.Hajji Piruz 00:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed irrelevant info that Hajji Piruz keeps on adding in every article about Azerbaijan. Etymology has nothing to do with ADR. Grandmaster 08:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

How is it not relevant, please explain. This being the first time that the term was used for a political entity in the Caucasus makes that section highly relevant. Do not remove sourced information.Hajji Piruz 14:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hajji Piruz, the information you're trying to add back does not belong to this page. This is a page about ADR, not about History of the name Azerbaijan. Etymology of the name is irrelevant here, because this page is about a political entity which already existed with this name. And by the way, the name had a precedent in application by 1918 for some 55 years since the article by Keith Abbott in 1863. Atabek 05:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

  • The Etymology and usage section is about the name of this entry: if you disagree with the text , we can talk about it , but deleting the whole section that discuss about the etymology of the entry , seems to be incorrect .

--Alborz Fallah 08:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

  • And to add the fact that the Rasulzadeh himself and Esmael khan Zeyad khanof ( the representative of ADR to Tehran )admitted that the name was never used for the north of Arass river before that time period and they considered if there could be a change in that name as fallows : ( The newspaper IRAN , 6th Rajab 1337 AH)
  • Iran newspaper: " Since until now that was only the name of an important Iranian province why did you called this part Azerbaijan ? and why do you insist to use this name ?"
    Esmail khan : " From historical point of view ,since the Baku was the temple of the fire-worshippers in the ancient time , then we chose this name for our new country "
    Iran : "If we agree that Baku has been the fire-worshippers temple , and you are interested in using that word , then why do you insist in using the term Azerbaijan and not to use the word AZARESTAN ? "
    Esmail Khan : " That's not a bad idea , and we can talk about this latter ..."
In 15th Rajab ,Rasulzadeh wrote in that newspaper about that as : " The name Azerbaijan denotes a national meaning more than a geographical one . We consider ourselves as an ethnicity who talks with the Azerbaijan language that is a dialect of Turkish. The ethnics name is neither Arran nor Shirvan and not Moghan: that is Azerbaijan " --Alborz Fallah 08:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there any way to check that publication? And also, the name is not an important aspect of ADR, political struggle, military campaings against Bolsheviks and Dashnaks, international relations of the country are a lot more important. The name has been discussed in many other articles, there's even a special article on that topic. What is the point in dupilicating this info in every article about Azerbaijan? Grandmaster 09:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
For checking the publication, you can use this book: "Storm over Caucasus: A Glance at the Iranian regional relation with the Republics of Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia in the first period of independence 1917-1921 ", Kaveh Bayat (In Persian), ISBN 964 - 361 - 065 - 9, pp 109 - 111.
About the necessity of etymology section in every countries entry in Wikipedia , I checked the following entries : Turkey, Armenia,Georgia and Iran: what's the difference here , not to mention the etymology ?( considering the fact that there where no naming controversy over naming that countries , but there is still a section about their name in Wikipedia ) ...--Alborz Fallah 21:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Alborz, the section you're reinsert through a second revert now is irrelevant here. It's a non-neutral POV being inserted at Azerbaijani people, Azerbaijan, History of Azerbaijan, History of the name Azerbaijan articles. How many articles, does the same WP:SOAP have to appear in? It's clear as a day that the name Azerbaijan applied north of Araxes river since 17th century due to traveller Chardin and through Keith Abbott since 1863 article. So how could the name be "chosen" in 1918, if it already appeared in scholarly publications prior to that date? Atabek 15:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Mentioning a dispute in one article, is not an indicator of it's irrelevancy in other ones. Macedonia naming dispute is exactly the similar controversy , and that is mentioned in many pages such as Macedonia (region), EU & Macedonia, EU enlargement,Republic of Macedonia,Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia,Macedonians (ethnic group) and so many other pages that I'm not able to mention them all. But about the thing that you consider "clear", our information shows opposite. Ernest Orsolle in his book "Le Caucase et la Perse " , clearly states that (1885) and also lord Curzon in his book Persia and the Persian Question seems to be more credible than Abott , because of his higher rank and newer view ...--Alborz Fallah 21:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Alborz, can you provide us with a quote from Lord Curzon via Ernest Orsolle and its relevance to this topic. And can you, please, explain how Viceroy of India and Undersecretary of State who only traveled to Persia for a year, would be more credible than Consul General of Britain in Persia writing for Royal Geographic Society. It would make sense that the second was probably more familiar with geography and history of the region than the first.
The Macedonia articles claim that Macedonia region spanned to FYRM, Greek Macedonia and parts of Albania. In the same fashion, historical Azerbaijan spanned what's today Republic of Azerbaijan and South (Iranian) Azerbaijan. This fact is attested by Chardin and Abbott references. So if you insist on irrelevant etymology section to be included in every Azerbaijan-related article, then perhaps, we should NPOV it instead of presenting the position of only one side in this disputed issue. Atabek 07:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Lord Curzon was the head of British demlomacy and also especilized in the Iranian topic as to the point of writing a book about the Iran . In 2nd vol of the book Persia and the Persian Question he names under the chapther"Russia's annexation of Iranian lands" , the fallowing : " Baku, Derbent, Shirvan,Megrelia,Karabakh,Ganja,Shekin,Abkhazia,Mughan,Imeretia (?),Guria (?) andTalysh".Simply, He does not says "Northern part of Azerbaijan " ...And about Orsolle , the whole book is about his voyage to that region , but he clearly talks about Caucasus and Azerbaijan : as an example in page 305 ( Persian translation , ISBN 964-426-000-7 he says ( beginning of chapter 17 ):"Iranian area is 1647070 Km2 and it's population is about 7655000 ....most of the country is uninhibited except the Azerbaijan that has many rivers that originate from the mountains and the region of ...." , all of the book is about travel in caucus (and Iran ),but he never says anything about Azerbaijan in north of the Arass river : only Caucus ...--Alborz Fallah 13:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • And to add, in Abbot's quote:
“ The country known to the Persians as Azerbaijan is divided between them and Russia, the latter Power possessing about five-eighths of the whole, which may be roughly stated to cover an area of about 80,000 square miles, or about the size of Great Britain; 50,000 square miles are therefore about the extent of the division belonging to Russia, and 30,000 of that which remains to Persia.

The Russian division is bounded on the north and north-east by the mountains of Caucasus, extending to the vicinity of Bakou on the Caspian. On the west it has the provinces of Imeritia, Mingrelia, Gooriel, and Ahkhiska (now belonging to Russia); on the east it has the Caspian Sea, and on the south the boundary is marked by the course of the River Arrass (Araxes) to near the 46 th parallel of longitude, thence by a conventional line across the plains of Moghan to the district of Talish, and by the small stream of Astura which flows to the Caspian through the latter country. In this area are contained the following territorial divisions: - Georgia or Goorjistan, comprising Kakhetty, Kartaliny, Somekhetty, Kasakh; the Mohammedan countries of Eriwan, Nakhshewan, Karabagh, Ghenja, Shirwan, Shekky, Shamachy, Bakou, Koobeh, Salian and a portion of Talish. Georgia is traversed by the River Koor (Cyrus), a stream of no commercial importance, since it is not navigable except by boats. .. The population of Russian Azerbaijan consists of mixed races... The country included in these boundaries and, perhaps a large part, if not all, of Russian Azerbaijan recognized as Medea Atropotena in ancient geography.

 ”


He used the term Russian Azerbaijan to denote the present areas of the caucus including Azerbaijan , Armenia and Georgia and also claims that half of Atropatene was contained in the caucus.Abbot makes several huge mistakes. He claims Atropatene was equally shared between the Caucasus and Iran , where as no modern historian says this. That is is blatantly and historically false. He claims major areas of Georgia as Azerbaijan , no other map or source has done that. Megrelia is in northern Georgia : Mingrelia. No other map and source has done this. He claims all of Armenia , no other map has done that. The name Azerbaijani by itself is a ethnonym from the last century in the Caucusus. Even if Armenia had a large Azerbaijani speaking population, at that time they were not called Azerbaijani. He also claims that Russian Azerbaijan is bigger than Iranian Azerbaijan, we know this is not true as the Qajar had only 4 provinces in Iran and one of them was Azerbaijan . Also Mirza Jamal Qarabaghi, a local historian from Qarabagh does not consider part of the caucus as Azerbaijan . Also according to Wikipedia rules, it is up to scholars to summarize primary sources. Diakonoff being a contemporary scholar has much more weight.
Qajar's tended to call all of the North Western Iran "Azerbaijan" because they where all under authority of Azerbaijan Baiglarbagi that's the same for Khorasan that they called all regions of the North East Iran as Khorasan , regardless the history and geography : that may mislead some of the westerners to use same naming attitude , but that's not correct and reliable , because then all of the various regions of that place have to be called Azerbaijan , including Georgia and Armenia--Alborz Fallah 15:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Also the same about Chardin:
“ Media, which formerly ruled all Asia with an imperial dominion, at present makes but one part of a province, though the largest in the Persian empire, called Azerbeyan or Asapaican. It borders on the east upon the Caspian Sea and Hyrcania, on the south upon Parthia, on the west upon Araxes and the Upper Armenia, of which Assyria is a part, and on the north on Dagestan, which is that mountanious country that borders upon the Muscovite Cossacks, and part of Mount Taurus. The Persians affirm, that the name of Azerbeyan implies, the country of fire, by reason of the famous temple of fire which was there erected, where was kept that fire which the fire-worshippers hold to be a god. Nimrod is said first to have brought in this worship, and there is a certain sect called Guebres which still maintain it. ”

During Safavid Iran , because of the powerful centralism , the regional governors named big provinces with only one name and thus the province of Azerbaijan , that was a main peace of Iran , became neighbor of Parthia that tends to be in N.E Iran, that is today some place between Iran and Turkmenistan. Then using Chardin to depict Azerbaijan boundaries is imprecise.--Alborz Fallah 15:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what is precise and what is not. Making original research about sources is not allowed. We just quote it as it is, and both Abbot and Chardin call north of Araks Azerbaijan. That is undeniable fact, but it has nothing to do with ADR. The name section should be deleted from every article other than History of the name. The admin EI C deleted it, and that's the end of the story. Other articles about Azerbaijan also need a clean-up. --Grandmaster 18:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Imprecisety was shown to stress on WP:UNDUE.But about to mention and/or refer to the naming dispute page in the involved articles or not , that can be achieved via comparison with similar problems ( I mean Macedonia naming dispute) and consensus. Admins are always open to edit for a better edition and the discussion page is built for achieving this goal. --Alborz Fallah 06:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I have to disagree with some friends here not in terms of belief but in terms of editing Wikipedia. I thought a long time we decided that we should just keep it in one article history of the name Azerbaijan. There are differing opinions, but I do not think this back and forth argument is necessary for every article as Wikipedia requires one article per issue. A real Encyclopedia usually deals with one issue in one article anyway. --alidoostzadeh 18:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Ali is correct, but this has nothing to do with that agreement. This is about the Eytmology and usage section, which is highly relevant to the ADR. Once again, as with the other debates we have had regarding this issue, some parties to the dispute refuse to acknowledge the evidence, source, and arguments brought by others. This is a clear cut case: A) undue weight is being violated, B) WP:NPOV is being violated, C) Wikipedia NOR is being violated, and D) sourced information is being removed.

Once again, we keep hearing about Chardin and Abbot, what about the hundreds of other sources that say opposite? Not to mention that both these sources make mistakes, one in particular makes huge mistakes and the other is talking about Media, and that we have yet to see a single map...

Are we really going to have this discussion all over again? User:Thatcher131/Sandbox1 it has already happened and the outcome was clear.Hajji Piruz 22:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we consider the Ali's opinion as correct , then at least we may show the controversy in choosing this name for the Caucasian republic by referring to such a page ( or entry)in the section Etymology and usage : naming controversy Alborz Fallah 08:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Well the issue of naming as admins have concurred is to be done in one article. Alborz Jan, I disagree with the approach of putting this issue in every article. I think this way we can all concentrate on making better Wikipedia articles. --alidoostzadeh 03:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the links to irrelevant articles such as Arran and Caucasian Albania. The link to History of the name is there and it is quite sufficient. --Grandmaster 07:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Those links are highly relevant. A) It is a geograhpic name of Iranian origin, B) Arran was the name of the region prior to it being called Azerbaijan, and C) Caucasus ALbania is what it was known historically.Hajji Piruz 04:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
What does that all have to do with ADR? Stop bringing the name issue in every article about Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 07:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hajji Piruz has inserted irrelevant material here. The discussion and POVs about the name of Azerbaijan have absolutely no relevance to Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. The issue was brought by Hajji Piruz in every article related to Azerbaijan in general, further fueling conflict. Atabek 16:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenia in east?

Isnt Armenia is in west? Not in east? Mimihitam (talk) 01:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, also Georgia was forgotten, so corrected those now. Atabek (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

The context in which the reference to Audrey Alstadt's book was used in this article is dubious. Page 2 of her book says: "The word Azerbaijan may have been formed from Atropaten, named for Atropat, a satrap of Alexander of Macedonia in 328 B.C.E.". Addressing that in the article. Atabek (talk) 13:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)