Talk:Azerbaijan (Iran)

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[edit] last edit - POV pushing

Last edit is clearly POV pushing, and at least contradict references which in this sentence. A lot of discussion held here. Any new edit should be discussed thoroughly before edit made.--Dacy69 19:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Now it reflects both points of view, I hope with reference # 1,2 for one sdie and reference # 3,4 for another.--Dacy69 19:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] history

I updated some info on recent history--Dacy69 16:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

it was not updating, it was blatant pushing by a handpicked of obscure sources, I revert until you at least show consensus for it. --Pejman47 17:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It is reliable sources and well-known facts. what you are doing is blatant vandalism.--Dacy69 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Dacy, stop spamming articles, this issue has been addressed already in its proper article.Hajji Piruz 17:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
There have been three references removed from the article. Can you please, provide:
1. detailed reason for reverting
2. detailed reason for claiming "obscure sources"
3. reference to the "proper article" in Wikipedia, where "this issue has been addressed already".
Thanks. Atabek 17:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Claim on that page was that information is irrelevant to foreign relations. here it is about domestic policy. It perfectly suits. That's it. Indeed, sources which I used on this page was used on that page - Iran-Azerbaijan relations and stiill on that page. So, you just in tandem try to remove sourced information. Multiple sources which introduced here will be approved by any third party mediator.--Dacy69 19:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I am adding Amnesty International source - Its reliability is not under question.--Dacy69 19:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Pejman, you are blindly reverting wothout any reasonable discussion--Dacy69 20:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

you said you are going to only insert the amnesty international sources and mentioned it in your edit summery, but then you just reinserted your obscure sources. I ask you to think about your edits. --Pejman47 20:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
you said that it is obscure sources. I added Amnesty International to support it. You blindly deleted it. Now I am opening request for comments case. Next - I will have to draw attention of admins to your actions if you were persistent in deleleting multiple sourced information.--Dacy69 20:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comments

The dispute regarding update on the recent history of Iranian Azerbaijan - events of May 2006 and others involving riots supressed by police caused by cartoons published in an Iranian newspaper insulting Azerbaijani identity. Edit [1] was supported by multiple and reputable sources, including Amnesty International. Editors user:Pejman47 and --User:Alborz Fallah without reasanoble arguments blindly delete edits.--Dacy69 20:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

With regard to comments below "A - The first two sources and Cristian Science Monitor are not international sources" (???) What it means? Pls. see Wikipedia guidance on sources. We need NPOV sources and non-obscure one which is the case with CSM and other references. As far Amnesty International - I introduced it because Pejman47 questioned sources on its notability. Amnesty International confirms which other sources reports.--Dacy69 02:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments of Editors Involved

A - The first two source of information , [2] and The Christian Science Monitor are not international sources.
B- The Amnesty International USA 's Annual Report , is not related to "History" section of Iranian Azerbaijan as we don't see such a report Amnesty on Azerbaijan on history section of Azerbaijan or any other country in Wikipedia:Israel , USAand etc--Alborz Fallah 22:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments of Third Party

Dacy69 is trying to spam several articles with the same information. This information is already mentioned in the proper articles. It has nothing to do with the Iranian region of Azerbaijan or its history. This isnt the proper place for the information Dacy69 wants to insert. Again, this information has already been inserted in the proper articles already and has absolutely nothing to do with Iranian Azerbaijan or the history of Iranian Azerbaijan.Hajji Piruz 22:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You should have some decency. You are involved in many dispute on similar topic and still commenting as third party. You are making comments on editor rather than on subject matter. I'll take note. Ok. Now about the subject. Then you have not explained where this information is covered and why the description of important recent historical event should not be in the article.--Dacy69 01:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why Amnesty International info was removed. Please provide a good reason for deletion of sourced info. Grandmaster 06:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Alborz, this is an article about a geographical region, don't insert irrelevant and poorly sourced "Human Rights reports" into the article. Otherwise, there would be no end to it, and next we would have a section with "Human Rights reports" about the conditions of Talysh, Tatars and Kurds on Azerbaijan Republic article. Wikipedia is not a forum or a soapbox. AlexanderPar 08:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
And the same information on human rights of Azeris in Iran is already available on Azerbaijani people, Iranian Azeris and Human rights in Iran. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, you can not spam Wikipedia articles with the same information on four different articles. The article Azerbaijan (Iran) is a geographical article, not an ethnic one. AlexanderPar 11:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Text inserted is not about human rights per se. It is about recent historical events. Secondly, it is based on multiple sources, Amnesty Inetrnational is one of them. But editors, like pejman and Alborz, remove all of them.--Dacy69 13:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

If the same event pops up in a number of articles it shows that we need a separate article about the event. Controversy over Anti-Azerbaijani cartoons or something. Then all the articles could use only a short phrase linking to the controversy article or even the link in the See also section. Any takers? Alex Bakharev 14:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This is already covered in two or three articles already.Hajji Piruz 14:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I liked this idea. Issue might be covered exactly in many articles. Invasion in Iraq is mentioned thousand times. Still, my edit was not only about cartoon issue but other events in 2007. For now, I will work on the article on cartoons and then we can make proper edit here.--Dacy69 14:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Alex Bakharev, I think this article is absolute necessity to reflect the historical events. Since events did happen in past, they're quite relevant to history section, and withholding of them, especially provided sourced information does not make sense at all.
Regarding AlexanderPar's comment, I welcome him to refer to the State Department as well as CoE and PACE reports on conditions of minorities in Azerbaijan. For comparison, those conditions aren't nearly as abysmal as they're in Iran. Thanks. Atabek 14:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I created the article: Iran Cartoon Controversy.Hajji Piruz 15:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You have created article with name which distort the nature event and plus you filled it with unsourced POV information. therefore, I think now we should resolve this whole issue here.--Dacy69 16:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

As per advise of third party a new article created Azeri Cartoon Controversy in "Iran" Newspaper. Further it was advised to use only a short phrase linking to the controversy article.--Dacy69 16:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

you are not entitled to "summarize" the debate which you were part of it on your behalf!, let other non-involved do it and see if there will be any consensus or not. --Pejman47 18:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
News-type stuff should go to Wikinews, not Wikipedia. The cartoon controversy does not have enough lasting importance and significance to be included in the history section.AlexanderPar 18:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
You both acting as meatpuppets. You have not even participated in discussion and making reverts. Summary is fine. It reflects third party opinion. I quote it again "If the same event pops up in a number of articles it shows that we need a separate article about the event. Controversy over Anti-Azerbaijani cartoons or something. Then all the articles could use only a short phrase linking to the controversy article or even the link in the See also section."--Dacy69 19:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
If you are not agree with that we can resort to Arbitration since I see no further point in mediation. You keep reverting.--Dacy69 19:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
you have a very very strong POV in this issue and even don't try to hide it at all. I will not accept "you" summarizing this RfC, ask an admin like Alex or Khoikhoi to do that, I will be OK with that. --Pejman47 19:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Dacy69, stop threatening people with Wiki retaliation, Pejman, he also threatened retaliation if I insisted on having a picture in the cartoon article.Hajji Piruz 19:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't mislead people. You are inserting unrelated picture with your own POV comment. I offer to insert picture of demonstration which is of prime improtance. This is called 'balance'. And pls. use relevant talkpage, don't spread it here.--Dacy69 19:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Dacy69, please refrain from making baseless accusations, my views are mine, and mine alone. History section is for historical events, not every strike or demonstration that has taken place in a region. AlexanderPar 19:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen you around during the discussion. You just quickly came after edit and Pejman revert. History section should reflect important events. I see we can't agree on its importance. But third party mediator clearly stated his view - I quoted it above. So, you don't agree with that either. So, I propose Arbitration, and for some reason Hajji Piruz call it retaliation. ?...--Dacy69 19:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Dacy, do you think the history page of Azerbaijan republic needs a new section about the human right reports about Talesh and/or Kurds or about the Nardaran clashes?! I can't understand what's the reason to place all of these recent events on this history page? More than that , your idea about doubting "degree of integration of Azerbaijanis in Iranian society" is not a part of your source (Karl Rahder's) text- Although that source itself is a personal view! -and adding your personal point of view to the text is out of editorial ethics! Please keep your false idea of comparing Iranian Azeri relations to other Iranians to Azeri-Russian relations for yourself! We (Iranian Azeri's) don't think alike you.YULDASH: MONI KI YAZDON TARXDAN HESH DAXLI VAR?--Alborz Fallah 14:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Alborz, regarding your comment to Dacy69. I do think human rights are a global issue which should be reflected on Wiki pages, regardless of country. And if you believe there is an abuse of ethnic rights of Kurds, Talysh or others in Republic of Azerbaijan, despite Council of Europe, UN, State Department, or PACE reports to the contrary, you're welcome to present those. Also, according to your comment, we should discard every single source from any article, and in fact, just blank the pages, because every word contains author's personal point. Also, in the literary Azerbaijani language your comment above is written as: "Yoldash, bunlari ki yazdin, hech tarixe daxli var"? or even more properly "Yoldash, yazdighinin hech tarixe aidiyyeti var mi?". I believe the difference should convince you enough, as Iranian Azeri, that there is an ongoing eradication of literary Azerbaijani language in Iran, and this has nothing to do with politics. Atabek 13:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
It appears I need to discuss it again! Comparison does not necessarily means that I'm about to do so. That means when it is unacceptable to use inappropriate data here, that is the same everywhere, but both you and Dacy take it as I want to use human right problems in Az Republic as retaliation!
about literary Azerbaijani language , although that is not relevant to the discussion , that's a new language(in written form) and it's written literature is not so sophisticated , then I prefer not to pay so much tribute to that . --Alborz Fallah 18:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
You can do whatever you feel appropriate on other pages. I just take note your comment about HR in Rep. of Azerbaijan - this is clearly battlegorund approach and definitely will be taken into account. I put no personal view here. All is sourced.And you don't speak for people. here there is not room for political statement.--Dacy69 15:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
But YOU are the person who inserts his personal view in the Karl Rahder's article! Please show me where is this sentence "degree of integration of Azerbaijanis in Iranian society" in the text ?! and please don't misinterpret about that "battleground" idea! that was only a comparison for you to get the idea (not to use humanright articles in history section ). --Alborz Fallah 10:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] old source

Atabek please use modern references or put it in a history section on 1916 (world war I when Iran was invaded by Ottomons/Russians) and theere was a lot of anarchy in Iran. Right now there has been much migration into and out of Azerbaijan and major Persian/Azeri cities have Persian/Azeri populations but the ethnic composition is taken care of under people and says the same thing as the 1916 source. But given that the country was in anarchy in 1914-1922..the use of the word "nominal" makes sense in the context of that period (and of course not under composition of people). Right now though, there is nothing "nominal" about Azerbaijan as a region of Iran given the same anarchy does not exist and there is a central government. Actually from the begining of the 20th century, the subsequent Russian/English/Ottomon invasions, and Ottomon/Russian invasions between 1910-1922.., there was a lot of anarchy. But 1916 sources are obsolete with regards to contemporary events. For examples the countries name is not "Persia" anymore but "Iran". Thanks. --alidoostzadeh 08:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ali, the book was published actually in 2000 with contributions of Ara Sarafian. But of course, since the old quote of Arnold J. Toynbee applies to historical context of Azerbaijan, it could be moved to history section, can't it? I think a quote pertaining to demographic history of Iranian Azerbaijan from such a prominent historian would be relevant on this page. Atabek 11:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Atabek I think the demographic says the same thing although even in that section an up to date source should be used or else someone might use say 1000 A.D. or something which is historical. But the context of Ottomon/Russian interference needs its own subsection in the history section or an article in the long run..--alidoostzadeh 22:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian Azarbaijan ?

The term "Persian Azarbaijan" listed in this article, has not been used by any relaiable source. The google search yilds 218 results in the web, but at close look at these links it is clear that most of these are the copies for the Wikiperdia. --Mehrdad 18:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

check google books.[3][4] most of them valid academic sources. I would say the article is more historical. I took out the borders section since it is not an official region and since there is no definite border for what constitutes "Azerbaijan" in Iran and authors /politicians of all sorts might define it definitely. It is in the geography section already. (One guy I know thinks it is east azerbaijan province and another guy on the internet thinks it is half of Iran). --alidoostzadeh 00:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ali, Thanks for pointing to the Google book search, there result is sure different and much more academic. So let’s accept that term Persian Azerbaijan has indeed been used, in rare occasion, when the Anglo American world referred to Iran as Persia.

As for the borders of Azerbaijan I believe it is quite odd to deny that Azerbaijan borders with Turkey, regardless of any parts of history in last 6 or seven century.

Incidentally one of the links from your suggested search result the Diplomatic History of Persia, 1917-1923: Anglo-Russian Power Politics in Iran - Page 244 by Nasrollah Saifpour Fatemi, describe the border as " Azerbaijan, the northwest province of Persia, lies snug against the Turkish and Russian borders." . Considering the time frame of the books subject being 1917-1923 there is no mention of Iraq.

I could not help to notice that you've added "historical" in the top sentence of the article [5]. Many including me would like to know, what makes you to assume this article is about historical Azerbaijan? . If so then the section under the heading of "geography: would be meaning less, as we have to deal with the changing political geography for different historical times! This article is as much about present Azerbaijan region within Iran as it is about historical, and geographical Azerbaijan, with its ethnopolitical and geopolitical distinctions. Please refer to the text under the heading as geography. --Mehrdad 10:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome. But I would like to point out that it is not rare occasion. Persian Azerbaijan gets more hits than "south Azerbaijan" in academic books. Many sources in google book actually dispute that latter name but never-mind, that issue has its own article. There are books from 2006 in google books thats use the term Persian Azerbaijan and Britannica 2005 uses it[6]. But we do not have a region named Persian Azerbaijan/Iranian Azerbaijan on the world map as an official region. Thus its boundaries are not certain and are vague (much like Kurdistan is a term used in Academia but its boundaries are vague). As per borders, since there is no official region named Azerbaijan, then borders are not relevant with this regard. In 1917-1923 there was a province named Azerbaijan just like there was a province named Arak (which is the historical Arak-e-Ajam not to be confused with modern Arak) and we can mention that in its history section. Thus defining boundaries for non-official region is emotional and more in the territory of OR. If we are using an ethnic criteria then this map might be legitimate as well [7] (note I do not consider these ethnics maps legitimate but I am saying that in Encyclopedia we can not define a border for a non-official region based on ethnic criteria) or this source[8]. Also there are other groups in Iranian Azerbaijan but less so than Kurds and Azeris. Thus the issue is much like Khorasan which is a historical region but if we are talking about modern day politics, then it is south, Razavi and north Khorasan. There is no Khorasan bordering Afghanistan. It is these provinces currently bordering Afghanistan. If it is a geographical region, in all actuality, majority of historical sources distinguish between Zanjan and historical Azerbaijan proper (West, East, Ardabil) (See Ibn Hawqal, Fotuh al-Buldan and etc.). For example Britannica 2005 does not include Zanjan in "Iranian Azerbaijan". But if we are talking about ethnic regions and naming areas where Azerbaijanis live, then there are many non-Turkic speakers live in Azerbaijan(even today and if we are to include West Azerbaijan which recent maps show heavily Kurdish) and also there are Armenians, Talysh, Persian/Tats, Assyrians and etc and there are many Azerbaijanis in Tehran (more so than Tabriz or even Baku or any other city in the world). The issue is complicated (if you are defining a modern ethnic region) but for Wikipedia it should not be. The article "Iranian Azeris" deals with ethnic Azeris and thus we should not duplicate two articles in Wikipedia as per clear Wikipedia Guidelines. But the name Aturpatakan (Azerbaijan)/Azerbaijan pre-dates the ethnonym "Azerbaijani" by about 2200 years and thus deserve a separate article (I do not mean ancient "Azari" which was the pre-Turkic language and has been sourced in 8th-16th century) as a historical region within Iran. There needs to be an article on the historical region (covering Babak, Rustam Farrokh, Atropatene, Ilkhanids, Rawwadid, Turkmens all the way down to the modern era) and one on Iranian Azerbaijani people. Thus the article Iranian Azeris should deal with ethnic Azeris(as it does currently) and there should be an article on the history of Iranian Azerbaijan. There is a need for a history article on Iranian Azerbaijan which is this article since there is an an article on ethnic Iranian Azeris. As per borders (geography) in its current form, I am inclined to put what Britannica says since it seems to be a non-political source. But I'll await feedback since it is not an important issue. More important is to have an article on the history of Iranian Azerbaijan from the ancient era till the modern era.(Much like the Encyclopedia of Islam entry on Azerbaijan) --alidoostzadeh 15:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why Nothing About Conflicts?!

I saw that articles about Iranian Kurdistan or Turkish Kurdistan also include texts about conflicts that those regions have witnessed with the central government. These are some serious issues. Why nothing about the 2006 protests have been written? Many things could have been written but it seems that some Iranians try extremely hard to censor these important issues. I am not a Wiki editor so please excuse me for not knowing much aboiut how things are done or edited. I just noticed that this article had this serious short-come. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.136.137.83 (talk) 21:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)