Talk:Axl Rose/Archive2

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Contents

HTGTH

I see that Here Today Gone To Hell has been used as a source for history of W. Axl Rose in GNR and so I have edited the page myself with the information I have from 'Classic Rock, July 2007, Issue 107' which is a more valid source of information on the early days of GNR and not a personal website. If there are any problems please inform me. Renegade MUFC 16:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, the citations from HTGTH are from their article archive, which isn't a personal website, but an online archive of valid published articles about the band from the olden days before the Internet. These articles were researched and published in magazines such as SPIN and Rolling Stone, they weren't authored by the HTGTH staff. HTGTH is just giving them an online home.
As to Classic Rock being a more valid source, from what I've seen of them, that's not the case. The information they have on the band there is fundamentally incorrect and based on unfounded rumours and speculation. Any magazine who says that Axl's first performance in LA was at the Whisky with Guns N' Roses, and that GnR didn't play LA until 1987, for instance, just didn't do their homework. Even casual fans know the band was formed in LA, that their first show was at the Troubador in 1985, and that Rose had been in Los Angeles for some time, performing in other groups. There's plenty of outside documentation for all that; there isn't any for the CR claims. DanielEng 13:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

best known as the vocalist of Guns N' Roses???

"Best known"??? What the hell else is he noteworthy for?

Hollywood Rose vocalist, Rapidfire vocalist, L.A. Guns vocalist, appearing on Gilby Clarke's album "Pawnshop Guitars", playing Tommy "The Nightmare" Smith on GTA:SA. Bucketheader 17:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is filled with unsourced information

This article needs a complete re-work. I have removed a ton of claims from the article that have no sources. Before anyone attempts a rewrite I would suggest that you take a look at Wikipedia's guidelines for writing a biography of living persons at WP:BIO. Unsourced negative information must be removed IMMEDIATELY. We cannot use blogs and personal websites as sources for such information. You must use reliable secondary sources to make these claims. Vivaldi (talk) 11:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Stripped?

This article seems to be stripped of a whole lot of information. Nothing on his relationships, some of his feuds, Erins miscarrage, and other notable things. Its only about early life, Look at You Game Girl, and Chinese Democracy.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.223.107.220 (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2007

This article was stripped because this is a biography of living person and as such, as editors, we must be held to a higher standard than other articles. The specific rules you need to read regarding this are found at WP:BLP. Blogs and personal web pages of fans and fan clubs are not acceptable to be used as sources for an encyclopedia article about a living person. If you need to learn what a reliable source is check out WP:RS for more information. I'd love to see this article expanded to include his relationships and other information, but not if it means we resort to using personal webpages of GNR fans as sources for our information. Vivaldi (talk) 06:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Does someone has plans to rewrite it? It basically reads like a Guns N' Roses article filled only with information about the upcoming (or so they say) album, Chinese Democracy. It should be trimmed and just put basic information about his role in the band, and direct to the main article about GNR. Thief12 01:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivia integration? Why?

Trivia section is relevent, and should remain.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pro-trivia (talk • contribs) 22:45, 24 March 2007.

I agree that the information in the trivia section is relevant. The problem is that encyclopedias do not include "Trivia" sections in their articles. If the information is important enough to be discussed and it pertains to Axl Rose, then the information ought to be integrated into the article text in appropriate places. One popular place for many trivia items is "Pop culture references". A section titled "Trivia" is non-encyclopedic. Vivaldi (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
i responded on your talk, as you inquired as to why i placed the tag on this page. if the information is relevant, there should not be a problem in the integration. however, if it is interesting (i personally find trivia interesting), but not important, it should go. plz see Wikipedia:Avoid_trivia_sections_in_articles. the_undertow talk 04:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Axl Rose is the name he is notable for

On Wikipedia we use the name that a person is most notable under. In nearly every source that refers to Axl Rose in the media he is referred to as Axl Rose and not "W. Axl Rose". We don't put "Tom Cruise" under "Thomas Mapother" or even "Thomas Cruise", because neither of those names are what he is best known by. I don't mind if you want to mention that Axl Rose's full legal name is "W. Axl Rose", but you'll need to provide a reliable source to make that claim in the article. The first sentence should discuss "Axl Rose", the name he is notable for, and not "W. Axl Rose", which nobody ever calls him in popular culture or otherwise. Vivaldi (talk) 21:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's true. And he did change is name to Axl Rose so it is his official name. Course, the W. stands for something but either way, your right, we should reference him as Axl Rose as just Rose. Not everything has to be so formal. And also, why is there a picture of him from 2006? Why not one from 1985, when the band was founded? MaulYoda 00:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

All i think is that the article should BEGIN with W. Axl Rose not be called that or call him that all the way through the article because he is more commonly known as 'Axl Rose'. His name has never been 'Axl Rose'. In 1985, he changed his name to 'W. Axl Rose' the 'W' is not an abbreviation. Bucketheader 09:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If he did legally change his name, those court documents are public records and should be obtainable. Finding them and citing them would go a long way to putting an end to the edit war. -- Upholder 15:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about America or it's court documents. Can they be easily found on the internet? Bucketheader 16:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Many court documents are available on the Internet and many are not. The first problem you'll have to overcome is discovering what state and what county that the proceeding occurred in. The rules for legally changing ones name vary state by state. Usually it is handled by the local county civil court, but sometimes a Superior Court or probate court may handle the case. I think it would be easier to find a secondary source for this claim rather than the primary court document (if it is in fact true that W. Axl Rose is his legal name, rather than just a name that he sometimes uses in certain circumstances).
I was able to find two legal/court records online, both of which confirm that his legal name is in fact W. Axl Rose. His marriage record, Certificate C199803, is available on the Clark County website, here [1]. The Smoking Gun also has an arrest record for him here [2]. US court and marriage documents do require legal names. DanielEng 13:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

credits and reversion

after reading the imdb source, if you want to mention his credits, it's probably correct to say he is 'most often' credited as w axl rose. looking at the ref, this would be true. the_undertow talk 01:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Anagram of "Axl Rose"

Am I the only person to realise that "Axl Rose" is an anagram of "Oral Sex"? Arkyopterix 14:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I tried to add it, but they took it off.

No. Bucketheader 14:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Its original research and pretty useless information. And to nitpick you failed to include the "W" in your spelling. The following would be the valid anagrams: "Wears Lox", "Wax Loser", "Relax Sow", "Ax Slower", "Law or Sex" MarsRover 04:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Name

There is no need for a third opinion as there is a reliable source which states his correct name. Maurauth, thanks for your edits, but they are incorrect; his name has never been 'Axl Rose'; he was born 'William Rose', grew up as 'William Bailey' and then changed his name to 'W. Axl Rose'. The 'W.' is not an abbreviation, he chose that because he didn't want to share a name with his father and 'Axl' comes from a pre-Guns N' Roses band he was in called 'A.X.L', please understand this and not start an "edit war" like your, and mine, previous edits have created. This is a well-known fact and there is a source in the article for this. Bucketheader 13:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That source is just an article written by a random person, there's no official source to prove that he changed his name to W. Axl Rose. If you wanna show a reference by him, or show a credit to him with it, eg. GnR website / CD. Maurauth 14:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
AllMusicGuide is a reliable wikipedia source. And, i have shown you official Guns N' Roses music videos which show his name as ' W. Axl Rose'.Bucketheader 14:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
this is getting ridiculous here. axl's been w. axl rose for ages... i think there are enough references for that out there. let's look at it this way: if his name's officially axl rose (without the w) get a reference for that... please note: i'm not a g 'n' r fan, or an axl fan or anything of the sort. i just know my history. joseph 17:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you'll find many more references calling him 'Axl Rose' than 'W. Axl Rose'. Maurauth 21:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but they won't reference his name as 'Axl Rose', they'll just refer to him as that. You see, anyone who knows anything about Rose, or GN'R, or even rock music for that matter, knows what his name is. Bucketheader 22:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I'll admit I don't know much about the guy, but I know a HELL of a lot about rock music, infact that's one of the things in my life that I know the most about. How can you tell the difference betwen referencing and refering... Maurauth 22:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

What might have happened is that Axl Rose never legally changed his name, but rather, like most Hollywood celebs, just adopted a stage name of "W. Axl Rose" or just "Axl Rose". There isn't any need for him to actually go through a legal proceeding to make this change. This is just as John Mellencamp at one time used to call himself John Cougar. Vivaldi (talk) 08:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Axl himself stated in a Rolling Stone interview (some years ago now) that his name begins with a W. (as opposed to purely Axl). And then there's also the fact that he signs his name "W. Axl Rose"... Iggy Higgins 11:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Guys, go to smokinggun.com, and search for Axl Rose. You'll find his arrest records from when he was arrested in Phoenix in '98. All the legal documents refer to him as W. Axl Rose. If he was still Bill Bailey, he wouldn't have been arrested under a stage name. Barrelofagun69 18:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)Barrelofagun69
Okay, it looks like the fued about the "W" has been over for a few months, but I still thought I'd add my two cents. I just went and opened up my Guns N Roses, Appetite for Destruction cassette case, purchased in 1987. In the credits it reads "W. Axl Rose: all lead vocals, backing vocals, synth and percussion." I just wanted to reference this as one of the earliest official publications that state his name even though it may no longer be an issue.

Lojah 22:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Infobox colour

Is there something wrong with my computer, or is there no colour in the infobox when it's supposed to be yellow. 75pickup (talk · contribs) 17:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

its grayish-blue on mine (an apple macbook G5). what kind of computer are you using? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Savagepine (talk • contribs) 02:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Steven section

I deleted the section about Steven Adler's "rivalry" with Axl. There really seems to be no real source for it other than Adler himself (who is not known for being credible), it's all speculation and really seems to be little more than high school type gossip. DanielEng 09:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The information about Adler's 'rivalry' with Axl came from the Classic Rock July 2007 Issue 2007 and the information was actually taken from the interview with Adrianna Smith, who states she was the one on the 'Rocket Queen' song. Steven simply acknowledged this as being true, so I do not see why it has been removed. Renegade MUFC 14:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I did see the source, but the authors were one of the reasons I did delete the section. My reasons were:
  • Unfortunately in his past dealings, Steven Adler has not been the most credible or reliable source. Just because he said something doesn't mean it's true. As for Adrianna Smith, the name has never come up before to be the best of my knowledge, and I've been into the band since 1987 and have read most of their articles. She *is* listed in the AfD acknowledgements, but with no comment(and there are about 300 people in the thank yous, so that doesn't mean much on its own). There has to be an outside source for this information, not just Steven and his friend.
  • Credit on the AfD album for RQ goes to Barbi Von Grief, who *does* have a credible link to the band and has been brought up by various members.
  • There's really no evidence that there was any sort of 'rivalry' between Axl and Steven. The two weren't competing. Personality conflict? Sure, but Axl's had conflicts with all his band members at certain points, and the entire band had a conflict with Steven, seeing as he was fired. I don't think there is anything here warranting an entire section.
Really long-winded reply I know, but basically, I try not to delete anything without a really good reason. I would say that if there's any way this info were to go back in, it would be better in the Rocket Queen article, and it would really need to be verified by a reliable outside third party, ie, not an anecdote from AS or SA. DanielEng 16:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Barbie Von Grief was indeed the 'Rocket Queen', or at least that is who the song is based upon (Which AS purports to within the article.) - I shall leave the article as it is, seeing as I have no other source to back up what Smith has said - still, the majority of the information on this page could also be classed as dubious, as some of it has never come from the mouth of Axl.
True enough. I'm actually in the process of going through the page as I type this and trying to make sure everything has a reliable reference. The majority of information in the article is just plain wrong. DanielEng 05:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've gone through the article--with the exception of the FEUDS section--and tried to make sure every single point is researched and references. There were a lot of outright inaccuracies in the old article (for instance the section which stated GnR was "brought to LA in 1987"...they were from LA!) and a lot of things that could have been elaborated on.

I haven't deleted much, I've reorganized. Some points:

1. Trivia has been incorporated into the article as much as possible. The only two things I couldn't find a place for were the Estranged and Venezuelan coup things. 2. The band history and Chinese Democracy stuff seemed to just rehash what is already in the Guns N' Roses article, so I thought perhaps it'd be better to direct people there and leave this article to Axl himself.

If there's a problem with the edit, please don't kill me, just let me know. I really tried my best to make this as comprehensive, accurate and NPOV as possible. DanielEng 06:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

My only problem is that the Tommy Hilfiger fued is in with the references, apart from that it seems fine enough - hopefully more information will become clear when Axl's biography is released, but with it being written by Mick Wall perhaps not. What is the Wikipedia ruling on biographies? Are they still not deemed as a reputable source if they are not written by the person themselves?Renegade MUFC 11:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for catching that Hilfiger section.
The only real rule about sources, biographies included, is that they have to be reliable, whether they are autobiographies or by a third person. The Danny Sugerman book that is cited in several GNR articles, for example, is fairly academic, is completely sourced and fact-checked and is written by a neutral third party. The Mick Wall book--written by someone who has already been cited by the GNR camp for printing inaccuracies, who has continued to have a vendetta with Axl in the press over the last year, and who doesn't seem to have any sort of fact-checking in place for recent GNR articles, might not fit that category. DanielEng 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

References

One quick question. Why are there two citations for the very first word of the article? -Icewedge 05:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically because of the debate over Rose's legal name. There's been a lot of back and forth on the issue--some of it is here on this Talk Page a few sections up--with some claiming that his name is only "Axl Rose" because that's how he's usually referenced, and with others saying the W. is "William" (not just on Wiki, either. I once saw an article in the mainstream media about "William Axl Rose"...eek). The references are there basically to assert that his name actually legally is W. Axl Rose and provide proof and backup for it. That's also the reason there's a citation for the birth name in the next line, because it's frequently mistaken to be "Bill Bailey," the name with which he grew up, but was not originally given. DanielEng 06:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Citation for relationships section

Here's a source for Dan McCafferty's quote.[3] I'd add it myself, but I don't know how to format refs properly. Funeral 16:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks--I'll get this into the article. :) DanielEng 16:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate words in the article

The word "shit" appears 3 times and the word "fuck" appears several times in the article. I know that when quoting someone, you are supposed to quote him completely and percisely, but can't these words edited to more appropiate words? There is another way of saying "stay the fuck out of the shit....", even if it's not the exact words used by the man quoted. YemeniteCamel 14:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

No, we can't. See WP:CENSORED. Funeral 15:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Echoing what Funeral said. We don't censor Wiki or edit out words in quotes. As per WP:PROFA, In original Wikipedia content, a profanity should either appear in its full form or not at all; words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters in the word with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols. DanielEng 18:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination on hold

Please leave a note on my talk page when you're done with this stuff - cheers, — Dihydrogen Monoxide 03:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

*Refs 1 and 2 need full {{cite web}} style formatting *"participating school chorus and studying piano" - Need an "in" before "school"

  • "As lead singer for Guns N' Roses, Rose enjoyed tremendous success" - Guns N' Roses was wlinked in the last sentence, no need to do it again
  • "The family were of Scots-Irish and German [4] descent." - Ref should be at the end of the sentence, and it should have proper formatting

*"Axl publicly stated that he was sexually abused by his biological father. [3][3][5]" - Refer to him as "Rose", not "Axl". Also you don't need to repeat ref #3. And, there shouldn't be a space between the full stop and the ref. *"Axl's mother remarried when he was a small child." - Again, Rose not Axl

  • "Growing up, Rose believed that Bailey was his biological father. [3]" - Remove the space between the ref and full stop
  • Ref 11 needs better formatting. Same with 12 and 14. And 17 and 18.

*"Rose as a habitual criminal in his late teenage years. [8]When he was 17" - There should be a space after the ref and not before it

  • "Rose eventually adopted the name W. Axl Rose ('Axl' after a band in which he once played), [14] and set out to re-unite with Stradlin" - Fix ref placement there too

*"Once in Los Angeles, Rose began performing with various local bands, including Rapidfire[16], Rose, L.A. Guns[17] and Hollywood Rose." - Put all the refs at the end of the sentence *"for the reported wages of $8/hour. [15]" - Ref placement

  • "eventually building a fan following and attracting the attention of several record companies. [18][19]" - Ref placement
  • Rose' work as part of Guns N' Roses should be documented in the "Success with Guns N' Roses" section, rather than just using {{main}}. Compare to some of the other band member GAs - the most recent one I can think of is David Lovering.

*"In various reports in the press, he was referred to as the "Howard Hughes of rock" [20] and "rock's greatest recluse." [19]" - Moves ref to end of sentence, ensure no space between full stop and refs.

  • "Rose shed more light on his long awaited Chinese Democracy album" - Album title should be in italics
  • "The band, now consisting of Rose, Dizzy Reed, Robin Finck, Tommy Stinson, Chris Pitman, Richard Fortus, Frank Ferrer and Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal" - All the band members should be wlinked here, not just Bumblefoot
  • On 6 May, 2006, Rose appeared on the Eddie Trunk radio show and promised that the album would be released sometime in the fall or late fall 2006." - ref?

*Ref 24 needs proper formatting

  • "Unlike the other members of Guns N' Roses, Rose was never known for excessive drug use. [25]" - Ref placement
  • "I won't allow it." [26] After Guns N' Roses became successful, Rose noted that he had stopped using any sort of hard drugs. [15]" - Ref placement both times

*"$6,000 in fines and was released and the Summer European tour continued as scheduled. [27]" - ...and again

  • "he was labeled racist [28] and homophobic, charges he heavily denied." - Move ref to end of sentence, and ensure the ref discusses him heavily denying it...

*"in New York City. [15]" - Ref placement

  • "Living Colour frontman Vernon Reid publicly commented on "One in a Million" during his band's set. [19]" - same again
  • "he did not understand their way of life. [8]He also pointed" - And again
  • "Rose has maintained his friendship with John to the current day [29] and inducted him into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame." - Move ref to end of sentence
  • Ref 30 needs formatting

*"(NWA) as using the word in a positive context. [8]" - Placement

  • "I didn't want to support racism." [3]" - And again
  • "you get to leave."[3]He has" - There needs to be a space after the ref
  • Ref 33 needs formatting, 34 too

*Many refs need access dates *"for which he was arrested in 1992. [36] The case eventually" - Placement *"(voted by VH1 as one of the "50 Most Shocking Moments in Rock and Roll")" - Ref?

  • "Since Guns N' Roses' return, Rose's on-stage antics have remained much the same as they were 15 years ago..." - Paragraph needs sourcing

*Ref 38 needs formatting, as do 39 and 40 *"and she appeared in the video for the song. [41]" - Fix spacing, and ref's formatting

  • "in Las Vegas, [42] albeit" - spacing again, and formatting

*"and that he would kill himself if she did not marry him. [43]" - Spacing

  • "The marriage between Everly and Rose was annulled in January 1991. [15]" - Spacing
  • "and even caged birds. [43]In 1994" - And again...

*"the suit was eventually settled out of court. [19]" - And again

  • "and Rose fell into a deep depression. [19] [37]" - Spacing. Also do you know why they parted ways? *

*"The lawsuits were settled out of court. [43]" - Spacing

  • Refs 45 - 49 need formatting

*"the ex-wife of fashion designer Tommy Hilfiger's brother,[47].[48]" - Remove full stop (.)

  • "Rose, O'Connor or Volkova. [49]" - Spacing

*"in which Stradlin allegedly harassed and assaulted Neil's wife, Sharise. [50]" - Spacing

  • "each singer accused the other of backing out. [50][51]" - And again

*Ref 52 needs formatting...54 too, and 55 *""They totally mess things up and then they sit back and look at what they messed up and then try to figure out how they can fix it, whereas we mess things up and just dwell on it and make it even worse."" - Ref for quote

  • "In addition, the two have performed "It's So Easy" live together, [57]" - Ref placement

*Ref 58 needs publisher/author etc... *"but on May 13, 2006" - wlink the date here

  • "but it was quickly removed. [61]" - Ref placement

*"and that he had not made any of the statements attributed to him. [62]" - And again

  • Ref 64 needs formatting, as does 68

*"The audio of this speech is often referred to as Axl's Blues as the rest of the band play a blues jam as he speaks. [68][69] [70]" - Ref spacing/placement *"In addition, Bon Jovi keyboardist David Bryan publicly criticized Rose and his late arrivals at concerts in another 2006 interview. [73]" - Ref placement

  • Most of the interviews section could/should be removed as used as refs instead

Reviewed version: [4]

Good luck, — Dihydrogen Monoxide 03:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for this! I've gone through the easiest edits this evening (spaces and placement); the rest to be done soon. DanielEng (talk) 04:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I'll be completing the full reference formatting stage I started earlier on today, so we should aim to get everything else done and hope that I can stay focused on formatting (it gets quite boring with so many references and after about 20 or so the wikitext started to make me feel much dizzier than I usually do after I have been staring at the screen for a few hours) and this should breeze through. Spebi 09:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Your help here has been awesome and much appreciated. Thank you! I've just added the Nirvana reference requested and later tonight I'll be tackling the Guns N' Roses section. DanielEng (talk) 22:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good - if you wanna cross them off the list or anything if that makes your life easier, go for it. — Dihydrogen Monoxide 22:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

OK...as far as I can see, everything's been addressed. The one point that hasn't been is the one about Stephanie Seymour, but I don't think there's ever been a clear answer as to why they broke up...they were together and then they were not and then they were in court, and not much was said publicly on either side. I'm going to leave this for a few more hours/day so I can look at it again one more time before leaving that note. :) DanielEng (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, that's fine then - I'll pass it now. Perhaps if there were any *really* majorly popular rumours it could be justified to say "many people think it happened because xyz", but again I won't stress that...passing now, nice work. — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 23:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)