User talk:Avril.rennie

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00:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Avril.rennieWelcome!

Hello, Avril.rennie, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  Doldrums 06:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] West Kilbride

Hi Avril,

Many thanks for your work on the West Kilbride page, and especially your recent addition of the Hunterston Brooch info.

Probably the biggest weakness of the page (according to Wikipedia standards) as it now stands is its lack of citations of sources.

Would you be able to add citation(s) of the source(s) you used for the Hunterston Brooch info? That would be a great help.

Regards,
--NSH001 17:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Good evening!

I wonder if you are the Neil who was at Primary School with me? All those years ago! I'll bet you are. There's no better start in life than a Scottish primary school education! What a pity WK's fine Victorian School (the one we knew) was burned to the ground by vandals. Come to think of it, an entry about the current WK Primary School would be good for the article too.

Another amenity needing an entry is the West Kibride Museum.

I'm learning the editorial tools for Wikipedia, very gradually. Still don't know how to do citations of sources. The material about the Hunterston Brooch I gleaned from National Museum of Scotland publications. Have you been to the Museum in Chambers Street, Edinburgh, where the brooch is housed? You'll find that it is one of the great "icons" of early Scotland. So we should fly the flag and say "West Kilbride made this!"

Regarding citations, I need to find out more about the time Helen Keller stayed in West Kilbride.

We also need to be careful with the hyperlink for Robert Barr, though, because there have been several prominent people with that name.

The architect of West Kilbride Railway Station was James Miller who designed a lot of Scottish Stations, including Wemyss Bay. The RIAS (Royal Incorporation of Architects of Scotland) is building a database of Scottish architects and has screeds about the buildings of James Miller. As you might imagine, there is more than one James Miller, architect. However, the one we are referring to here is THE James Miller who designed, as well as stations, several illustrious buildings in the centre of Glasgow and who is very much a name to conjure with.

What I should like to see is a "history" of West Kilbride, starting with its geology and landscape, and describing the development of the village from early times onwards. For example, the house named "The Fort" in Seamill was named after the archaeological remains of a Roman fortification which were unearthed when the foundations of The Fort were being dug. Similarly, across the road, at a house called "Tarbet", Roman funerary urns were found.

Seamill, as we know it, was preceded by a village called Sandylands. The house in Ardrossan Road named "Sandylands" commemorates this.

Sadly, quite a bit of local history is in danger of being forgotten, simply because people are not recording it properly and passing it on to others. Even in my own time, I have seen local history being lost through ignorance and lack of protection. Some years ago, contractors uplifted lines of rocks from the beach at Seamill and used them to shore up the land against erosion by the sea. Sensible? No! We later found out that these lines of rocks were many hundreds of years old and they were, in fact, ancient fish-traps. An ancient monument that should have been "listed".

So, I hope the work on Wikipedia will help to raise awareness of West Kilbride, Seamill and Portencross, and alert people to their interesting history.

Keep up the good work! Kind regards from Avril.


Hi Avril, thanks for the kind words. Yes, I think I probably am that Neil. Sorry to say I have been struggling to remember you or recall anything about you. Sorry! But it was 45+ yrs ago, and in a class size of nearly 40 it's not possible to remember everybody. I can remember Jean Jardine, Inez Andrews, Keith Beard, Raymond Black, Duncan McLardy (sp?)), Ailsa Mackinnon, Andrea Currie, Kathleen Small, David Simmons, Alasdair Morrison. Also someone called Alan or Allen, whose 2nd name I can't remember. That's off the top of my head, could probably think of some more with a bit more time.
I'm a bit out of touch with West Kilbride/Seamill now, not having been back since we sold my father's house after his death in 1995. I have mixed feelings about WK, as I was always made to feel an "outsider" (and was bullied at the primary school, so it was a great relief to get to Ardrossan Academy). Partly why I left Scotland after getting 7 Highers in 5th year. But it's still a beautiful place, and there were also some lovely people there. I really would like to bring the article up to Wikipedia good article standard.
Re citations, there are lots of different ways of doing this on Wikipedia, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way. The best way of learning is just to look at examples in other articles. If you follow the help from the Wikipedia front page, you will find several articles on how to do citations, but they can be daunting at first.
For the WK article, I'd suggest following what I've been doing, which is to put the citation between a pair of <ref> ... </ref> tags. This results in a little superscripted number appearing where you put the tags, and the citation itself magically appears after the <references/> tag, which is usually placed near the end of the article (it's in the "Notes" section in the case of the WK article). So if a reader of the article wants to follow up a citation, he/she can just click on the little superscript, and the browser will take him/her to the citation itself, which will be highlighted in blue. Similarly, if a reader is interested in the citation, he/she can click on the little caret on the left, and that will take him/her back to where the source is cited.
If the source is a URL, all you need do is just copy it from another window in your browser, and paste it between the <ref> ... </ref> tags (this is what I did for the BBC "restoration" article). If you'd like a description of the source to appear instead of the raw URL, place the URL within a pair of square brackets, with the description following the URL, separated by a space, like this:
<ref>[http://very.interesting.web.site my brilliant description]</ref> (warning: it's easy to forget the closing </ref> tag!!!)
-- which you'll see is what I've done for all the refs except the BBC one.
If the source is a book or newspaper article (not online), then just type out the reference (between the <ref> ... </ref> tags) as you would expect it to appear in the "footnotes" section of a book. Again take a look at how other articles do it. It's possible to use one of the citation templates to do this -- the advantage is that they will automatically give you correct formatting, and probably make life easier once you're used to them; the disadvantage is that they're cumbersome to use, and lots of editors on Wikipedia don't like them. For an example of the "Rolls Royce" standard of citation, take a look at the Actuary article (which was the "featured article" on the Wikipedia front page a little while back) -- very professional looking, but complicated, a lot of work to maintain, and OTT for the WK article, I think.
OK, that's enough on citations!
You've got some good ideas on the WK article above -- I suggest you post them on the WK talk page (or even better, update the article itself if you're sure of your facts and have a reliable source). Talk pages can be useful if you're not sure of something or want to enlist some help. As I'm out of touch with what's going on in WK nowadays, there's not a lot more I can add. I'd love to see the "Amenities" section being expanded, but I obviously can't do that myself. The "Local economy" section needs to be expanded, and I can probably do that from published sources, when I have time. The "History" section I'd rather leave to an expert (I was never any good at history at school!) -- although, again, I could probably cobble something together if necessary.
Finally, a couple of tips on editing talk pages:
  1. when replying, indent your paragraphs by beginning them with a colon or colons (one more colon than the previous contributor)
  2. sign your contribution using the four tildes (as mentioned by "Doldrums" above). I find the easiest way of doing this is to use the nice squiggly signature button above the edit box. I prefer to put it on a new line, aligned with the rest of my contribution, as I think that makes it easier to see who has written what.
Kind regards (and good luck!),
--NSH001 17:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Good evening, Neil
Thank you for your helpful reply. I'm glad you are the Neil I thought you were. I saw your name also on Friends Reunited, so I put two and two together.
May I firstly say that I'm extremely sorry that you don't have happy memories of WK Primary School. Childhood isn't always the idyll that some people imagine it to be. However, I think WK was a pretty good primary school - especially compared to nowadays when some schoolchildren, in inner-city schools, are actually toting handguns! (At the same time, you are only alliowed to play conkers if you are wearing goggles! Isn't life paradoxical?)
I'm glad all worked out so well for you. I read in your profile that you are a practising Quaker. A very interesting way of life! Quakers are great pacifists, and I deduce that you will be very much agasinst the Iraq War. (Me too!)
West Kilbride should be very grateful that you are puttimg so much work into its Wikipedia article! I wonder how many people will read it? Presumably those who are thinking of moving to the area, for a start. Was it you who added the recent photographs? Thank you, if was. They do make a big difference!
One thing I would say about the photographs is that the topmost photo (of Seamill Beach) is not really typical of West Kilbride - especially since Seamill and Portencross are to get their own, complimentary articles. We need a better picture of West Kilbride itself - e.g. of the Main Street, or an overview from Law Hill.
I've just put a bit more effort into the article. I've added a bit about accommodation and I've put in more website links. It all starts to add up. I should also like to add a paragraph about the cup-and-ring stone which is historically important, I'm told, and deserves a mention.
Also deserving a mention is WK's good results in the "Scotland in Bloom" competition each year. Another annual venture is the Scarecrow Festival which gets the local schoolchildren enthusiastically involved.
It may take some time for the Wikipedia article to achieve the level of professionalism that, I deduce, you are looking for. However, if we keep plugging away, and aiming high, we shall get there!
I still haven't got my head around all the editing tools, though!
Kind regards from Avril

[edit] West Kilbride - (2)

Hi Avril - I'm continuing the discussion in a new section, as the old one has become too cumbersome to edit.

Oh, I do have happy memories of the primary school too, and I think it probably was a good basic education. The bullying wasn't bad enough to make me afraid of going to school. I did get on better with the other "English" pupils, as we had a shared feeling of being outsiders. I remember my best friend was Peter Cook, but his parents packed him off to a boarding prep school at a horribly early age. I was much happier at Ardrossan Academy, partly because the so-called "11-plus" eliminated 90% of the bullying, and partly because I found all the new subjects (science, maths, Latin, foreign languages) really thrilling and exciting.

I'm not going to say much more about the WK page here, as that discussion should really be on the WK talk page, where other editors can also contribute. But you'll no doubt have noticed that (about 2 weeks ago) I copied User:Dave souza's photo to the Seamill page, with a view to replacing it with something else on the WK page. I'd like to see a wide panoramic view at the top, probably taken from Law Hill. It would be perfect for display like this one:

A panorama of Hong Kong
A panorama of Hong Kong

I quite fancy one of those Panoscan cameras, but they cost about US$38,000! But it might be possible to do something similar with a high-resolution digital SLR camera, a wide-angle lens, and cropping off most of the top and bottom of the pic -- or more likely, having to "stitch" a few images together with suitable software.

Yes, it was me who added the pics. You can easily see that by clicking the "history" tab at the top of the WK page. I think the Wiki software is really good - from the "history" page you can see who has edited the page, and when, what changes they made, look at any previous version of the page, compare any two versions of the page, look at any contributor's user or talk page, or examine all the edits they've made. So if you really don't like someone, you can go through the list and revert all his edits! (in fact, this is sometimes necessary to deal with vandalism)

OK, time for some more of Neil's editing tips:

  • It looks to me like you're editing the whole page each time, by clicking on the edit tab at the top of the page. It's much, much easier to edit just one section at a time (just click on the "[edit]" to the right of each section heading). Also safer, as it reduces the risk of an edit conflict if someone else is editing the page at the same time (actually the Wiki software is very good at resolving edit conflicts when they do happen, but they can still be a nuisance).
  • It's good practice to provide an edit summary (in the little long box below the main edit box) so that people can see what you've been doing. If you're editing a section, the Wiki software will fill in the name of the section for you, but you should still add an edit summary of your own (and the software will complain if you don't, whether you're editing the whole page or just a section).
  • You forgot to "sign" your contribution again! Tsk, tsk, naughty girl!

Kind regards, and good luck with your editing,
--NSH001 12:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Neil
Thank you, again.
I'm glad you have survived WK Primary School so very well. I think you must have been in the other "intake" from me, although they were merged at some point. Was it in Miss MacGregor's year, perhaps? The "11-Plus" was called "the Quali" in Scotland, short for "the Qualifying Examination". An example of "the Belt" is displayed in WK Museum. Many of us recall being at the receiving end of "the Belt". Were you, like me, in Miss Barclay's class? A very amusing book could be written about that!
I'm sorry you found there was anti-English bias in WK. In fact, there were a lot of English families living in West Kilbride. Many of them came to WK to work at the large ICI plant (Nobel Division) at Ardeer, Stevenston. Perhaps that's what brought your family here.
On with the editing. I've been at the article again with my scalpel, as you may see. Hope that's all right. I know you don't think the article is all that good yet. But I think it compares well with those for other comparable towns.
And that brings me to an important point. I think WK is wrongly categorised as a North Ayrshire village. It is, surely, a North Ayrshire town. The new strap-line for WK is "Craft Town Scotland". It's confusing, I know, because, around here, West Kilbride is known as "the Village". For example, if one says someone lives in "the Village", one means that they live in West Kilbride, rather than Seamill or Portencross. However, the population is increasing rapidly and there are now some 6,000 people living in the WK area (including Seamill and Portencross). So, I would categorise WK as a town and Seamill and Portencross as villages.
Unfortunately, the local politicians are trying to stamp out Seamill, in the mistaken assumption that, if you abolish Seamill, West Kilbride will gain a higher profile. There's an inverted snobbery here, also, because property values in Seamill are a bit higher than those in West Kilbride. Signage, as you drive into Seamill, now reads "West Kilbride incorporating Seamill". It's all very silly. Seamill has a somewhat different sense of place from West Kilbride, and always has done. (Note how the phrase sense of place shows here in blue!) Seamill is different from West Kilbride, just as Leith is different from Edinburgh. This is a good thing, I believe!
On the subject of editing, I have taken the liberty of deleting the bit about the vandals at WK station. I don't think this is a point worth making. Readers can deduce from the mention of CCTV and the mobile police station that there's a problem with security at the station.
I also don't think the point about six hairdressers is worth making. A lot of shops have come and gone in West Kilbride, over the years. High-quality butchers, family grocers, lovely wee sweetie-shops, dress-shops, shoe-shops, retailers of every kind, the Grand Central Cafe, the Roxy Picture House - all gone. Sic transit gloria mundi! But every town has the same problem. The advent of supermarkets has put countless small shops out of business, all over the UK. In West Kilbride, however, the local preople decided to do something to re-generate the village (town?) and, as a result, West Kilbride Craft Town was born.
The Grand Central Cafe was an important piece of art deco which was underestimated, overlooked, fell to bits and, eventually, was razed to the ground. (Nardini's in Largs is currently in the balance. Very, very sad!)
Back to editing. Thank you for all your editing lessons. I'm afraid I find the Wikipedia editing tools very fiddly. However, if I persevere, I may get there. I still can't see how to add a signature. (Sorry!) I wish I had chosen a more anonymous screen-name. Can I change that?
Thank you for the photos. A great step forward. Yes, a panoramic shot would be lovely! I have some photos of WK, Seamill and Portencross that you may want to use. How can I send these to you? What's this Wikimedia Commons I see mentioned?
There is a nice program, freely available on the Internet, called www.slide.com. You can make nice slide presentations of your pics and incorporate them in your web-site. Goodbye to boring, static presentations! YouTube, as you know, is a good way of showing videos. (But you know all this, of course, because you are technically very adept. Much more so than me!)
I'll wind up for now. Tempus fugit! Kind regards from Avril.rennie 00:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Avril, I see you're learning, well done!
I can't remember the names of any of my teachers there, tho' the name MacGregor does ring a bell. I do remember Mr Rutherford, the head teacher, though. I remember we had a new, young teacher in P6 or P7 who my mother thought was very good -- she taught us how to play chess, among other things, was that Miss Barclay? She bought a brand-new Mini as soon as it came out -- I wonder how many young teachers nowadays could afford a brand-new car (unless married to a rich spouse)?
Yes, my Dad was a research scientist at Ardeer. He took early retirement from ICI (but only a couple of years off his normal retirement) to look after my mother, who had cancer.
Yes, fine to delete the bit about vandals, in fact anything that isn't either common knowledge or can be cited to reliable sources can be deleted as far as I'm concerned. I too thought that the population of WK was around 6,000, but I replaced it in the article by the actual 2001 census figure. I doubt the population has increased to 6,000 in only 5/6 years, especially since the 2001 census showed a fall from the 1991 census. A good example of why I keep banging on about the need to cite reliable sources!
Another point to watch in this sort of article is "peacock phrases" (see WP:PEACOCK). For example, "fine bowling club". Much better to show why it's a fine bowling club. I think we need to be careful that the article doesn't read like a tourist brochure. It's now much better than most other small-town articles, but we've still got some work to do to bring it up to WP:GOOD status.
I do think you should post your thoughts about the WK article on its talk page, rather than here. That way you'll get a wider range of feedback, not just my views.
Sad to hear about the Grand Central Café, had fond memories of that place (even tho' I don't much like Art Deco architecture, I still think it should be preserved). I seem to remember it was pretty much dead by the 1990s anyway.
I'll reply separately about your technical questions.
Kind regards,
--NSH001 12:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Neil
I can never bring myself to use the Americanism "Hi!" (Can Wikipedia be persuaded to ban it?)
Yes, I'm happy to "talk" on another page. There seems to be nothing doing on the WK discussion page so far, though.
I think the go-ahead young teacher you have referred to was called Mrs Taplow (or Tapley?). I was taught by her on only one occasion when our teacher, Miss Hogg, was off sick. I remember that Mrs Taplow used to throw the wooden board-duster at pupils if she thought their concentration was drifting. (How things change!) She may have found that an effective way to make pupils sit up. The Headmaster in succession to Mr Rutherford was Mr Parker. His wife taught domestic skills such as cooking, sewing and knitting to girls. (Were the boys taught woodwork or something like that? I can't remember.)
Just under the eaves were sculpted, in large letters, the words "West Kilbride Public School". So, you were a public schoolboy, perhaps without knowing it!
Sadly, the old WK Primary School was burned down by vandals (them again!) about 25 to 30 years ago. It was replaced by a new primary school which looks very smart and business-like. Not as venerable and traditional as our Victorian school, though. Apparently, its classes are open-plan now, with the emphasis on play rather than discipline. Pupils wear lovely, red sweaters with "West Kilbride Primary School" and a heraldic shield emblazoned on the front in black outline.
There was play, as well as discipline, at WK Primary School when we were there. I remember playing peevers, marbles, yo-yos and conkers in the playground, eating soor plooms surreptitiously in class, trying to chat in class without getting caught, and so on. The belt was always lurking in the teachers desk, ready to warm the fingers of chatty people who got caught.
Although, the belt may seem barbaric to our politically correct age, we were all in the same boat, and out-going pupils found it gave opportunities to show off their derring-do and devil-may-care approach to life. Nowadays, youngsters seem to think ASBOs are a badge of honour. So, maybe the world doesn't really change that much, after all.
I note what you say about peacock terms. From the point of view of literary style, I agree with you. Mindless value judgments do seem - er, mindless. However, if you are writing about something you don't actually know much about, it's not so easy. Thus, just describing the WK Bowling Club as a bowling club doesn't tell the reader very much. I could say that the WK Bowling Club looks prosperous, well landscaped, well manicured and that it has a sizeable membership. But that doesn't seem like the objective, academic approach either. That's why I described it as a fine bowling club. That tells the reader something at least - i.e. it's not a bottom-of-the-range bowling club. At one point, I described the WK Golf Club as an "18-hole golf club". Someone (presumably you) changed that to "championship golf club". That was better, because a championship golf club would have 18 holes, by definition.
I can see there's a conflict of goals here. For one thing, Wikipedia wants to encourage people (like me) to get going and not to feel utterly inhibited. On the other hand, they want Wikipedia to be a well-respected work. Rather like "The Times" used to be revered as a "journal of public record". (Is it now? Maybe not, since Mr Murdoch got his hands on it.) Can an amateur, collaborative work also be regarded as a professional work? I'd say it can fulfil a valuable role - but, also, that one needs to keep a pinch of salt at the ready.
Accordingly, I'll write a line or two about the Roman remains in Seamill, and anyone with more information can brush that up some time. I think it's better to get this written down, rather than to risk the local knowledge being lost or forgotten. The archaeological records must exist somewhere. But where?
You and I shouldn't be too hard on ourselves, perhaps. University professors tell me that students nowadays consider their own views to be as weighty as those of the leading authorities in their subject. Magritte's urinal, Tracy Emin's unmade bed, the BT telephone directory - all these are ground-breaking works of art. Clearly, a cat may look at a king. So, we can too.
A piece of bright news about West Klbride. Some more of the empty shops have been purchased by the Moffat Trust for restoration and conversion into more craft studios. So, the upgrading of the Main Street (now a conservation area, I believe) is growing apace. Craft Town Scotland really is looking up!
I know that Wikipedia isn't meant to be an advertisement for West Kilbride. But I do think we should be presenting the town in a positive light, where appropriate. There are plenty of good things to say about WK. There is a kernel of worthy citizens who work tirelessly to make WK a good place in which to live. Watering flower-baskets in summer. Running clubs and societies in winter. Public-spirited people like that should be encouraged!
I'm enjoying recalling WK in the 50s and 60s with you. But, do you want to move the discussion to the main discussion page from now on? I'll let you lead the discussion, if I may, because you seem to be very well versed in Wikipedia,
Have a good evening! Kind regards from Avril.rennie 19:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] continued ...

Hi Evenin' Avril!

New section again, to keep things manageable. So many points to deal with, so I'll try to deal with them in the order you mention.

I don't know of any way to change your Wiki name, but it's easy enough just to set up a new account. Speaking personally, I'd rather you didn't, as changing identities makes it harder to keep track of who said/did what, but it's your choice, of course. Some less scrupulous people,known as sock puppets, set up lots of different accounts pretending to be different people in order to impose their views on certain articles, but I'm sure you wouldn't do that!

Yes, in principle you could e-mail me any pics you think worthwhile, but I'd rather you held off that for a few days, as I need to do some rather tedious housekeeping on my e-mail account first. However, you could always have a go at uploading pics yourself -- just click the "upload file" link on the left and feel your way. BUT if you do upload pics, I do recommend that you upload them to "Commons", rather than just the English Wiki.

What is "Commons"? Well, on most articles (but sadly not WK!) you'll see a box on the left headed "other languages" -- if you click on say, French, then you get the French version of the same article, which forms part of the French wikipedia. In general, the foreign-language wikis are completely separate from each other, including from the English wiki. In particular, that means the bit at the top with your account name, "my preferences", etc will disappear when you look at the French wiki, unless you've previously set up an account on the French wiki. (I also have an account on the Spanish wiki, but haven't used it much, yet.) But photos don't care much about language, so there's yet another wiki called "Commons" whose sole purpose is to hold photos, videos, and other language-independent stuff. Pics on there are automatically available to all the different language wikis. It's also easier to manage your pics there, as you get a "gallery" tab on your user page, from which you can see all the pics you've uploaded. There are also facilities to put pics in different categories, to make it easier to find what you're looking for. It's just much nicer for handling your photos, and you get the benefit of making it available to all the different language wikis. BUT in order to use Commons, you MUST first set up your own account on the Commons wiki (the picture tutorial doesn't make this requirement clear).

Re pics, it's very important to be aware of copyright. Basically you can only put stuff on Commons that is freely available for anyone to re-use (though it's OK to specify a limited number of conditions, such as that the copyright must be credited to the original holder, and that the same conditions apply to any re-use). There's loads of detail in the help sections on copyright. All the pics I've used so far have been taken from the geograph web site, which satisfies the copyright conditions. If you've taken the photos yourself, there shouldn't be a problem as long as you're willing to make them available under a free copyright licence.

So I'd encourage you to have a go at uploading pics to Commons while I'm sorting out my e-mail. Once it's on Commons, it's not too difficult to get it into an article -- see Wikipedia:Picture tutorial. I recommend making plenty of use of the "Show preview" button so you can experiment with the sizing and positioning of your pic(s), and so that you can get a "feel" for how it works. (and you should also always specify "thumb" among the image parameters, by the way). Or you could always ask me to put it in for you.

I can't be sure about the name Taplow or Tapley. I think Tapley is more likely, but I just can't remember. Do you remember that incident when I was run over by a car on the A78 at the top of Merlewood Road, and spent 10 hugely enjoyable days in Kilmarnock Royal Infirmary? I was knocked unconscious and couldn't remember anything about that accident either! No, we definitely weren't taught any woodwork (which makes me wonder what we were doing when the girls were doing sewing, etc!). But we boys did do metalwork and woodwork at Ardrossan Academy when the girls did "domestic science". Can you remember the names of any of the other teachers there? Maybe that might jog my memory.

Not sure what "peevers" was/were, but I do remember all the other games you mention. Click your link, and you get Peever, South Dakota -- not as good an article as our wee town! (But a good example of how NOT to use numeric data.) Boys used to play football, of course, and I was always terrible at team games (always used to get picked near the end of the line-ups at the start of games, but I wasn't the absolute worst). I hated team games, but quite enjoyed other sports. My Dad and I used to go skiing in Glencoe at weekends (staggeringly beautiful scenery). Used to play badminton in the Overton church hall -- I'll never forget that evening when Raymond Black came in and announced that president Kennedy had been shot.

I think the best attitude to Wikipedia is not to feel inhibited. If you don't get it quite right, someone else will be along sooner or later to improve it. It's a bit like a free market -- prices can temporarliy be wrong, but will eventually find the right level. On the Stock Market, if you can identify a company that's hugely over- or under-valued, you will make a fortune. We just have to content ourselves with a bit of kudos for improving articles. Eventually it will be better than any commercial encyclopedia. I left the bit about "fine bowling club" in as an aide-memoire for something that can be improved. Maybe they won all their matches last year, or we can find a quote (in a reliable source, of course!) from the chairman of the Scottish Bowling Federation that it's the friendliest club he's ever seen. Something like that anyway.

I think the discipline of citing everything to reliable source is extremely valuable in keeping dodgy facts out of articles, and making what does go in more interesting and useful. It makes for a little extra work, of course, but the result is worth it. I think the present "transport" section is a huge improvement on the old version that said "probably the easiest way of getting to WK is ..." It's amazing what you can do with nothing but published sources. You might have noticed that I set up a stub article for James Miller the architect, to avoid the disambiguation page from the WK article. Click on the link to have a look -- yet I knew absolutely nothing about him!

Interestingly, you don't need to be too worried about negative aspects, I think. For instance, Belfast used to be terribly ashamed of its part in building the Titanic. Nowadays it has a whole tourist industry based around its most famous ship! What about that horrible, gruesome murder on WK railway station (c.1990 IIRC)? Just a thought. In the end, it's always best to be honest, and accurate.

Kind regards from
--NSH001 20:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Good evening, Neil!
Thank you for your lengthy reply. I do appreciate all the trouble you take. Like you, I would like this article to be really good. We must persevere!
No, I don't remember your getting knocked down on the A78. Thank goodness you pulled through all right! The A78 is now a rather busy road. It has turned Seamill into a mere commuter belt, without much sense of community. That is why Seamill will always be a mere satellite of WK. (Not a UFO. That's a different story!) If you look at old photos of Seamill, you will see groups of people strolling up the Kinning Brae - i.e. up the middle of the A78. In those days, the only real traffic hazard would have been a very occasional bolting horse.
Even in my own time, I remember pedestrians strolling through West Kilbride, treating Ritchie Street and Main Street as if they were one large pedestrian precinct. You wouldn't do that nowadays!
"Peevers" is a playground game very similar to hopscotch, but not identical to it. I should have clicked on the blue link to make sure Wikipedia had got the right "peever". But I omitted to do so. Sorry! (Never assume, as they say.) Games were seasonal. Conkers came round in autumn, for example. Exchanging scraps was another girls' game. One traded up to get a good collection - say, of angels, cherubs (cherubim!)
Fancy you remembering Ray Black telling you that JFK had been shot! The mass media mean that, in our time, such events resonate round the world in a flash. We are all present as history is in the making!
Back to our article. If you look at the equivalent for, say, Largs, you will see there's a box in the top-right corner, giving a little thumbnail sketch. We need that too. But I don't know how to do it, yet. Over to you, perhaps.
I have at last seen the bit in Toolbox called "Upload file". Why didn't I see that before? Yes, I have some photos that may be helpful. I'll start uploading them soon. The better illustrated the article is, the more impressive it will be.
At the weekend, I asked my sister is she knows anything about Helen Keller's stay in WK. She says a now deceased family friend, Mr Furlong, knew about it. Mr Furlong was a very responsible person - the sort to be very sure of his facts. But, how this story can be verified now, I don't know. That's a pity. Because, if it can be proved, it's a West Kilbride story well worth the telling.
During WW2, the Emperor Haile Salassie (spelling?) stayed in Wemyss Bay (or was it Skelmorlie?), just up the coast. That's an established fact - easily checked on Google. John Lennon's Uncle Stanley lives in Largs. Kevin Stacey has relatives in Saltcoats. All true! (Oh, dear. I'm digressing!)
When we were children, a boy from Glasgow named Christopher Whyte came for a holiday in Seamill. He pretended to be a European princeling escaping from his father's enemies, in a storyline worthy of Enid Blyton's "Famous Five". How disappointed I was when I found it was mere fantasy! (Well, if Haile Salassie could stay in Skelmorlie, why couldn't a European princeling come to Seamill?) Now Chris Whyte has found fame as an award-winning author and writer of gay poetry in Gaelic. The child is, indeed, father to the man! (No-one has written him up on Wikipedia, though, it would seem!)
Thank you for giving James Miller (architect) the recognition he deserves. Sadly, WK Station is not in the shape James Miller would have envisaged. The quaint bothy where the unfortunate girl was murdered some years ago has been demolished (shame!) and replaced by a memorial garden.
Did you compile the article about James Miller (architect) on Wikipedia? Amazing! I don't think it was there before. Or did I just overlook it!
Kirktonhall House, in the centre of WK, needs to be written about. And there are weavers' cottages lining Ritchie Street which are worthy of note.
We could also have a section on "vanished buildings", recalling the Grand Central Cafe, the Roxy Picture House, the old mills which stood close to the centre of town, Crosbie Towers. All these were important landmarks in their time. Part of WK's history.
Then there are other extant buildings, such as Carlung House, which are significant.
As I said before, WK's good results in Scotland in Bloom and the annual Scarecrow Festival should be included, I'd say. I'll try to find something to write about them.
I strongly feel WK needs to be categorised as a town, rather than as a village. If you look at the other places in Ayrshire that are "villages", you will see that they are, typically, small and comparatively unimportant. They may have other redeeming virtues, such as picturesqueness, of course. So, I suggest that we move WK to the "Ayrshire towns" category, leaving Seamill and Portencross in the "Ayrshire villages" category.
I found a bit on Google about WK's submission for conservation area status. However, I can't confirm that the bid was successful. I shall have to find out!
Thank you, again, for being an excellemt correspondent. I look forward to the next chapter! (And verse!)
Kind regards from Avril.rennie 00:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A wee note

Just to let you know I've started using the WK talk page. Writing style there will be quite formal, as it's addressed to anyone who might be looking at the WK page, and the subject matter there will be strictly confined to the WK page.

I may copy some of your remarks above (obviously, none of the personal stuff) there as a starting point for discussion, if that's OK with you (feel free to do so yourself, of course).

Will reply later to your message above. Time for bed now!
--NSH001 01:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher Whyte

A tag has been placed on Christopher Whyte, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template {{hangon}} to the page and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Avril! To request that an article be written, visit Requested Articles. You can add Christopher to the list, and if anyone has the time and inclination, they'll be able to write up an article. As a general rule, Wikipedia will delete any pages that are basically empty - it's to keep clutter down. Thanks for writing! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] West Kilbride - (3)

Sorry about taking so long to reply - busy on several fronts.

I should let you know that I have (at last, and reluctantly) bowed to the inevitable and deleted the "Accommodation" section from the WK main page (tho' I did copy it to the WK talk page). Sorry! Reasons are on the WK talk page.

I have dealt with quite a few of the points you mentioned:

  1. WK is now categorised as a town. This involved quite a bit of work, as WK is smaller in population than any other town in mainland N Ayrshire. Also I was reluctant to change the category when the lead section (correctly, I think) refers to WK as a village. While I was looking up the populations of the other towns, I took the opportunity to correct (or add) their population figures. Am quite pleased with the new phrasing of the lead section, that WK/Seamill together are regarded as a small town, which makes sense under the new category. The fact that a few "towns" in South Ayrshire are smaller (plus Millport) makes me more comfortable with this.
  1. The new stub article for James Miller (architect) was surpringly easy to create (if you click its history tab, you'll see I only needed one edit). Just google for him, and then re-jig the info, only a few hours work. But I did have to spend a lot of time cleaning up the disambiguation page, which was a total mess: improve descriptions, sort into alphabetical order, even set up a redirect in one case.
  1. I wish I could say the same for Robert Barr. I did spend some time improving the disambiguation page, but obviously none of the people there is our man. Wasted a huge amount of time in futile google searches for him - there is a little info, but nowhere near enough for an article.
  1. I've finally got rid of the "peacock" phrase about the bowling club. Much better, I think, to put in some solid (and positive) info.

I finally got hold of the little book published by WKAS. You may have guessed that's where I've been getting some of the more recent info that I've been adding. But it's very, very, frustrating trying to use it! Having read it through, I know some piece of info is there, but it's so hard to find it when you need it -- there's no organisation or order to the book, nor any index. Incredible that the section on Boyd Orr doesn't mention he won the Nobel Prize. A sizeable section on Robert Barr, but lacking crucial pieces of info that would enable somebody to set up a WP article about him - no dates of birth or death, no mention of the companies/shipping lines/distilleries from which he made his fortune. This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts! There's an extensive bibliography at the end. Great, I thought, I can add a bibliography to the WK article, but no, it's unusable as they don't (apart from an isolated few cases) state the publisher or the date of publication. More climbing up the wall in frusration! It isn't even in order by date or by author; that doesn't matter so much, as I can always sort it on the computer, but it just seems so unbelievably sloppy and careless. (Sorry about this little rant!)

The one thing that is very good about the book is its photographs. Some of them are superb, most are better than the geograph photos that I've put on the WK page, and the cover photo would be perfect as a panoramic photo at the top of the WK article. I will e-mail the address given in the book asking if they will send me some photos (and give copyright permission) to put on the WK page, but I will wait until the article is in a form that I'm more comfortable with before I do.

Have to go now (still a few more things to say, will be back later...) Hope you're well and enjoying life.

Kind regards,
--NSH001 14:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alasdair Taylor

Re this recent edit: I'm sure you're right, but be careful about Wikipedia's original research policy. "Advised by Jean Camplisson, Alasdair Taylor's daughter" is not an acceptable basis for an edit. Wikipedia requires a basis in published sources, not personal knowledge. In fact the whole Alasdair Taylor article requires sourcing in reliable published third-party sources per Wikipedia:Verifiability. I've passed it on to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts for assessment. Gordonofcartoon 02:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: while reading the Alasdair Gray weblog, I notice that you are a friend of Alasdair Taylor [1]. This creates a difficulty with Wikipedia's conflict of interest guideline, which advises strongly against directly editing articles where you have a close personal or business involvement. The general advice is to collaborate with independent editors via the article's Talk page. Gordonofcartoon 11:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gordon (of Khartoum, surely?)
Thank you for what I'm sure you intend to be valuable advice. There is all too little published material on the subject of Alasdair Taylor. I did, indeed, know him personally. But that makes me well-placed to write about him. We were not so close as to cloud my judgment, I assure you. And we had no business involvement. For example, I do not own any of his paintings or other works. Alasdair Taylor lived a very hermit-like existence in the remote village of Portencross, North Ayrshire. If it were not for the efforts of a dedicated body of supporters - especially the Streetlevel Gallery, Glasgow - Alasdair Taylor's artistic work might now be very much at risk, following his death. Alasdair Gray and James Kelman have both written knowledgeably about Alasdair Taylor, I believe, and I am trying to obtain online copies of this to link to.
I entirely support Wikipedia's drive for academic excellence and accuracy. However, I don't think it is necessary for me to get a copy of Annelise Taylor's birth certificate and death certificate to establish the correct spelling of her name. If her daughter Jean has asked me to spell it "Annelise", that should be more reliable than any other source. There can be spelling errors in published sources, as we know.
With kind regards,Avril.rennie 18:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I don't doubt what you say over that detail - the spelling of someone's name is a trivial example - but it's still an example of original research (which is forbidden by one of Wikipedia's core policies, Wikipedia:No original research). Everything must come from reliable third-party published sources: another core policy is Wikipedia:Verifiability. Paradoxically, perhaps, this trumps personally-sourced insider information: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".
A lot of how Wikipedia works is non-intuitive, and it's very easy when you first start to get a sort of "are you calling me a liar?" feeling. The problem is that Wikipedia's open editorship system has no fact-checking ability. It's the Internet: you can't trust anyone's word or identity. The only way to ensure, as far as possible, that facts are true is to show that they come from a solid published reference. If you can help find such references, that would be very useful. But if there's anything in the Alasdair Taylor that is unpublished and comes entirely from your personal acquaintance, then it should go. Gordonofcartoon 19:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gordon, I am confident that there is no "original research", as such, in the piece about Alasdair Taylor. What I have written, to date, is a serious-minded article about a Scottish artist of note who is only now emerging from obscurity, following his death. The verifiable documentation you are seeking should become available online, when Streetlevel Gallery have completed their work. There may be an element of chicken and egg here, but the passage of time will surely change that.

Regarding published material in general, we all know that the quality of books, pamphlets, newspapers, etc - has always been variable, since the printing-press was invented (and probably a lot earlier). Just because something is published in a smart-looking volume - even an Encyclopaedia - does not mean it is all factually correct and up to date. The beauty of Wikipedia is that it is not cast in stone (or even hot metal). If a contributor makes a factual error, it is readily amended by someone with more accurate, or more up-to-date, knowledge. I welcome this.

Finally, the piece about Alasdair Taylor is very much in its infancy. What I have done is to get the ball rolling. I, for one, will be putting more work into it to make the quality as high as possible. And I am sure that other contributors will do so too.

Wikipedia encourages would-be contributors to "take the plunge". I have done so. With kind regards,22:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I am confident that there is no "original research", as such, in the piece about Alasdair Taylor
Then you should be able to tell me what publication every fact in there comes from.
Just because something is published in a smart-looking volume - even an Encyclopaedia - does not mean it is all factually correct and up to date.
True, but irrelevant. Read Wikipedia:Verifiability.
Wikipedia encourages would-be contributors to "take the plunge". I have done so.
It also advises, right on the first screen you see when creating an article, "Do not write articles about yourself, your company, or your best friend".
I'm well aware that there's a behavioural guideline here Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. But it's not helpful if you persist in arguing for the inclusion of material contrary to the basic policies here. I see that others have already advised you about the need for citation. This needs an outside view. I've passed it on to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts for an assessment of Taylor's notability, and to WP:COI/N. Gordonofcartoon 23:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gordon, As I have said, this article is far from complete. It may be some weeks before I feel I have done my side of it. Then, I hope others will take over. I repeat that I have not done "original research" as such for this - although I suggest that Alasdair Taylor would be a worthy subject for a PhD student's thesis in the future.

To put you straight, I have NOT written any Wikipedia articles about myself, my company or my best friend. And I have no intention of doing so.

It is true that I knew Alasdair Taylor personally. But Alasdair knew a lot of people - for example, through his broadcasts on BBC Radio Scotland - and, although he lived in a secluded cottage, without mod-cons, along a bumpy, pot-holed farm-track, a wide range of people used to make the effort to visit him and his family there. I CAN'T claim to have been Alasdair's best friend. I'm sure a lot of people knew him a great deal better than I did. For example, Asger Jorn and other members of the COBRA group.

Your allegation that I have a "conflict of interest" here - i.e. that I stand to gain in some way - is deeply offensive. I must ask you to retract this allegation, forthwith. I have absolutely NO personal or financial stake in this Wikipedia article, or any other. What personal gain do you think might be involved here? Pray tell. Do you think I own a shedload of Alasdair Taylor's paintings? The reverse is the case. I do not own any.

My sole motive here is to start to do justice to a noteworthy Scottish artist who - according to respected critics, such as Gray and Kelman - has been overlooked for too long. This is not promotion, in some vulgar, commercial sense. It is more a matter of "setting the record straight" - i.e. of recording a subject that deserves to be recorded. I can only go part of the way here, because I am not an art critic. My intention is that others will take over the article and make a first-rate job of it. No doubt, they will change it out of all recognition. I shall be glad to see that, because it will mean that I have succeeded in getting the ball rolling.

Finally, your allegation that my work is "contrary to the basic policies" is also deeply offensive - and entirely wide of the mark. I work carefully and honourably in all aspects of my life - including Wikipedia. How dare you suggest otherwise? I am new to Wikipedia, and I look forward to contributing worthwhile articles to it.

I am always pleased to receive wise advice, helpful tips, and so on. But I will not tolerate false allegations. That is utterly unacceptable. No-one should have to put up with that. Yours sincerely,Avril.rennie 01:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Administrator steps in

Avril, Gordon's comments are right on target. It's unfortunate that you interpret them as a slur on your integrity because I'm sure they aren't. It's just a matter of site standards. Wikipedia is a tertiary reference, so if you have new and unpublished information regarding Alasdair Taylor's significance as an artist then by all means publish them in a newspaper or an arts magazine. If the venue satisfies this site's reliable sources guideline then the material will qualify for inclusion here. Unfortunately Wikipedia's editors can't rely upon interviews with surviving family members. No one accuses you of doing this for other than the best of motives. It's just that in a large website we often deal with spoofing claims and other things like that, so consistency demands that we treat all instances equally. Your assertions have the ring of truth, but this site's standards are verifiability, not truth. I hope you understand. DurovaCharge! 02:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Avril, I'm genuinely sorry if I've given offence. As Durova says, my comments were certainly not meant as a slur. But this is a common issue for newcomers to Wikipedia (I went through it myself).
In the outside world, we - rightly - generally judge accuracy of information by a network of personal contacts: who we rate as trustworthy by reputation. On Wikipedia, this isn't possible; even assuming good faith, we have no way to know the accuracy of information from who posted it. I'm sure your information about Alasdair Taylor is accurate; but I could easily add to the article that he had a wooden leg, dyed his beard green and lived mostly on whelks! There would be no way for a reader to tell which was the truth.
For that reason, Wikipedia has a system of policies designed so that integrity of information is judged not by the usual criteria of identity and reputation of a person and who they know, but by the reputation of the source where it was published. The basic policies of WP:V and WP:NOR define how to go about this. Gordonofcartoon 02:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Durova, Thank you for stepping in. I found Gordon of Cartoon's comments disgracefully offensive because he went so far as to imply that I had a vested interest in the article. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have nothing whatsoever to gain from it. Alasdair Taylor is a neglected Scottish artist who, I and others believe, deserves to be more widely recognised - and I believe that will start to come to him, following his death and the current retrospective exhibition at Irvine Harbour Arts Centre.

You suggest that I could write for some art magazines. That is a lovely idea. However, I am not an art critic and I don't think I would carry the same weight as Alasdair Gray, James Kelman or Andrew Brown. My qualifications are in other areas - I have a BArch Hons and an MBA - but I am not formally qualified to write about art. That is precisely why I have used the critiques from Andrew Brown and Alasdair Gray. Brown and Gray are established authorities on the arts - I am not.

A few newspaper articles about Alasdair Taylor have indeed been published. But they are, sadly, not currently available online. One article, by James Kelman, could be extremely useful for your purposes and would serve to verify where necessary. I shall try to get that made available online, with James Kelman's permission, and any other permissions that may be necessary.

Gordon of Cartoon further offended me by implying that Alasdair Taylor was my "best friend" or that we had some sort of close involvement. What was Gordon trying to suggest? Alasdair Taylor was a married man who was devoted to his wife. I was one of many, many friends and acquaintances whom the Taylors knew. (Alasdair was a marvellous raconteur and that used to draw people to him.) I only used to see the Taylors about once a year because I was living and working in Edinburgh. No close involvement there. Entirely innocent and harmless, actually! Absolutely no conflict of interest.

I fully understand what you say about quality control. If people want to write about themselves, their families or their chums, then "MySpace" and "Facebook" are there for that. However, I have set in train what I consider to be a serious-minded article about an innovative Scottish artist whose reputation is, at last, starting to develop. It does seem a pity if factual biographical details - such as Alasdair Taylor's full dates of birth and death - cannot be verified by his own daughter. I am willing to go to West Kilbride Cemetery to take a photo of his gravestone. But that seems to be giving me unnecessary bother when I am already a very busy person.

I shall see the Alasdair Taylor article through a point where I feel "the baton has been passed" to other people. At that point, I shall consider my job done.

So sum up. I entirely support Wikipedia's striving for academic excellence, neutrality and accuracy. However, I will not tolerate false allegations by other Wikipedians. I repeat - Alasdair Taylor was NOT my best friend and I have absolutely NOTHING to gain from the Wikipedia article about him. I trust the article will develop well and that it will soon satisfy Wikipedia's standards in all respects. Thank you, again,Avril.rennie 04:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gordon, Thank you for your updated comments. I found your tone much more acceptable this time. I fully understand Wikipedia is striving for academic rigour and I am glad it is doing so. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be associated with it. (You will note, I am not using a pseudonym at present. It might be wiser if I did so.)

How did you know about Alasdair's whelk-eating habit, by the way? (Only kidding!)

I appreciate that Wikipedia wants to screen out the rubbish. However, it seems to me that, in some cases, valuable information may be lost forever if close relatives are not allowed to contribute to articles. Sometimes, you can screen out too much - like a famous virus-checker I can think of.

Anyway, I am not in a position to influence Wikipedia's powers-that-be. I can only focus on getting my own work through the hoops. With kind regards,Avril.rennie 05:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Something as simple as a birth date should be confirmable through public records and would not normally be the subject of controversy. The shortcoming of policy as we have to operate it is that sometimes we do lose out on valuable information. I suggest you try our formal mentorship policy for guidance. Best wishes, DurovaCharge! 05:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note that conflicts of interest on wikipedia per WP:COI have a specific definition, and include family friends. It does not imply any intent for personal gain. Also per requirements for verification in WP:V, third party sources are required and WP:NOR specifically forbids personal knowledge as a valid source, however reliable or accurate this is. Every body has its protocols and these are wiki ones. Please therefore do not take offence at Gordonofcartoon, who was simply acting in the way required of a conscientious editor. You may not realise it, but he has been very considerate of this article, which is questionable by wikipedia notability standards - see WP:BIO. As you say, "Alasdair Taylor is a neglected Scottish artist who, I and others believe, deserves to be more widely recognised." Wikipedia is not the means to give wider recognition to deserving but neglected causes. It only covers those people whose recognition is already established. At the moment, it looks as though we will be able to establish that there is sufficient recognition, but that does mean taking notice of the advice of experienced editors like Gordonofcartoon, whose intent is proper, even though it may not have seemed like that. You may not realise that around 1,500 articles are deleted from wikipedia every day. Tyrenius 15:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An offer

Hi Avril, Do you have the references for the newspaper articles you mention? Who wrote them, where and when they were published? If so I may be able to get them for you using the electronic newspaper archives that I have access to. Might save some work if it works, though can't promise of course! --Slp1 13:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for references to be online. If there are newspapers articles, these can be cited by giving the newspaper name and other details, preferably title of article and author and page number. The information in the article can then be legitimately used. I am posting a guide to using references below. Tyrenius 15:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, indeed, I should have mentioned that plain old book and newspapers references are very perfectly valid. For some reason I was thinking you might not have all of them in your possession, but perhaps you do already. --Slp1 15:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd meant to say the same thing. A number of articles I have edited have citations to newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc. which are not online. As the Hero of Cartoon was trying to say, we need citations for facts; but they are not required to be citations which can be verified by a quick google! --Orange Mike 20:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Many British artist biographies (unfortunately not this one) here are verified via the ODNB, NewsBank or Times Digital Archive, none of which are freely accessible online. Gordonofcartoon 20:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critique

The material in this section needs to be mostly incorporated into the main text. Then these articles can be used as references to verify the information. Please continue the discussion, if necessary, on the article talk page.

Note: individual years are not wikilinked, only when the are with day and month. Day and month are wikilinked, even without the year. This is a bug: it is to enable user date settings to work in their preference settings. Also only wikilink words where the reader is likely to want to follow up that information: i.e. obvious words do not need to be wikilinked.

Tyrenius 16:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Guide to referencing

Click on "show" to open contents.

Dear Tyrenius, Thank you for your helpfulness, which I do appreciate. I am relieved that the article about Alasdair Taylor has survived.

I note that the article has been overhauled, and I must say that I like the new pithiness. (Writing pithily was never my strong suit, I admit.)

It seems to me that Wikipedia has taken on a heroic task of quality control, with such huge numbers of individuals making contributions of many sorts. Being easily accessed and "quick", at the same time as being a reputable encyclopedia, is a challenge indeed!

Many years ago, when I was a student, I was invited to write a PhD. However, I didn't take the offer up and, so, it may be that my academic skills have never been developed to the level that Wikipedia is seeking. Sorry about that!

When I was corresponding with Gordon of Cartoon a wee while ago, it occurred to me that Gordon's definition of "original research" was different from mine. Collating publicly known facts and setting them out in article form is not my idea of "original research". That would involve a great deal more delving, exploring and moving into uncharted territory.

So, now I am confused. I shall re-read the Wikipedia "Pillars" and see how I get on. I shall try to get the hang of citations, referencing, and so on, as soon as possible.

I want to put some illustrative material into the article about Alasdair Taylor and that should add to its overall professionalism.

Thank you, again! With kind regards,Avril.rennie 02:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I was going to keep out of this, but on reflection, as we're all realising it comes down to a misunderstanding, perhaps I can help. One important policy to read is Wikipedia:No original research.
Here "original research" is defined as material that has not been obtained from published sources: for instance, biographical material obtained by asking a relative or colleague, or based on reportage of what you've experienced when visiting the subject.
It doesn't matter if it's publicly available for all to see. The test is whether it has been third-party published (in a place up to the standards of Wikipedia:Verifiability).
Bear those two policies in mind when you add illustrative material. The Life section of the Alasdair Taylor article is still in limbo, and there isn't an open ticket to leave unsourced material in articles permanently (again, see WP:V). I've been persuaded that it has the ring of truth and verification is forthcoming, but now the workings of WP:NOR and WP:V have been explained, the promise of future verification isn't carte blanche to add new material with the same problems. Gordonofcartoon 12:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking that Avril's "illustrative material" may mean images of Mr. Taylor's paintings rather than text.--Slp1 12:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
They'd have to be attributed somehow (perhaps Street Level Photoworks, who are digitising the works, could donate). I'm pretty sure verifiability applies to images too. Gordonofcartoon 12:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I meant images. An article about a painter/sculptor needs illustrations of his work, surely. Also a photo of Alasdair Taylor himself should be there and, preferably, a photo of the desolate cottage near Portencross where he worked (in splendid isolation?) for so many years. Malcolm Dickson of Street Level has generously offered to contribute good visuals to this article. However, he is on holiday just now. As he will be working under the auspices of the Scottish Arts Council, I trust the quality will be more than satisfactory. I'll get back to you asap about the newspaper articles I referred to earlier. With kind regards,Avril.rennie 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)