Talk:Avraham Yehoshua Heshel

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Contents 1 Title 2 NPOV 3 Apter Rebbe vs. Rov 4 Heshel vs. Heshl

[edit] Title

This article is entitled 'Apter Rebbe'. However the subject was and is known as the 'Apter Rov'. I therefore propose that this article be moved to 'Apter Rov'. --Redaktor 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Should definitely be 'Apter Rov'. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article is not severely unbalanced, but the following sentences merit a tag: "The work abounds with lofty kabbalistic insights and interpretations... The Apter Rov is one of the most notable and beloved luminaries on the hasidic firmament." Biruitorul 01:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This statement is over the top. Surely there's a better quote? Klezmer 06:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apter Rebbe vs. Rov

I'm tired of arguing this point. I respectfully disagree with those who want everything changed to the Apter Rov from the Apter Rebbe. Truth is that perhaps today he is popularly known as the Apter Rov in modern Hasidic circles. But there are several authoritative contemporary sources that call him the Apter Rebbe. See, for instance, Tsvi M. Rabinowicz, "The Encyclopedia of Hasidism", Jason Aronson, 1996, article p. 7-8. Also see Avraham Yaakov Finkel, "The Great Chasidic Masters", Jason Aronson, 1992, article p. 85-88. In Chapin and Weinstock's "Road from Letichev", they even quote various Jewish newspaper articles from the 1800s in Medzhibozh (where he lived and died) where he is known as the Apter Rebbe. I strongly urge that this article remain the same and we refer to the great Ohev Yisroel both ways so that people can find the article either way. Klezmer 05:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect to the books, I was taught that back then nobody was called Rebbe - only Magid or Rov, and the Apter was definitely the Apter Rov, not Rebbe. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You may have been taught that, but the facts are the facts. Rebbe is well documented, even during contemporary periods of the lives of these people. I've recently seen a Census from Medzhibozh, signed off by the town "Rebbe" from 1821. And "Rebbe" is the exact word used because it is written that way in both Yiddish and in Russian. --Klezmer 14:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the census a published resource? --Redaktor 18:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No Hasidic Rebbe would sign his name as Rebbe. If it's accurate, it's the town Rabbi or Rebbe as in teacher not as in Rebbeh. It's common knowledge that he was the Apter Rov, and it's also that way in Alfasi, and in the sefer "HaRav MeApt", not HaRebbe MeApt. --ChosidFrumBirth 00:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It was a "Pinkas" book, a yearly registration of births and deaths provided to Russian government officials for tax purposes. It resides in the Kamenets-Podolsky Archives, Ukraine. In all fairness to your point, this fellow who signed it was probably not the Chasidic rebbe of the town. Rather, he was likely the "Crown Rabbi" (Rabbin Kazennye) appointed by Russians to be the town bookkeeper. However, Rabbin Kazennye weren't official Russian policy until 1835, so I don't know who this guy was. But my point is that they were using the term "Rebbe" contemporaneously. So you can't easily dismiss the fact that people were calling other people "Rebbe" at the time these Chasidic masters were around. BTW, he signed his name was "Rebbe Moshe". I'm not sure who he was. There was a descendent of R. AJH of Apt whose name was also Moshe (he would have been alive at the time), but it was a common name and who knows? Also, Chapin & Weinstock quote a Hamelitz article from 1885 (these can be found today in the NY Public Library) that talks about "Rebbe Israel" who was identified as R. Israel Shalom Joseph (1853-1911) of Medzhibozh, the g-g-grandson of R. AJH of Apt.--Klezmer 08:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting but inconclusive. --Redaktor 22:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, but it's evidence. That's more than anyone else provided. What do you have to prove your point? --Klezmer 14:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The biography published by Mosad Harav Kook is called 'Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Heshl, Apter Rov'

רבי אברהם יהושע השיל הרב מאפטא חייו, הליכותיו, סיפוריו ותורתו. מאת: ברל, חיים יהודה הוצאת מוסד הרב קוק ירושלים תשמה But the main argument is that nowadays he is widely known as the Apter Rov so that should be the title WP:COMMONNAME. --Redaktor 00:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

See where he is clearly called Apter Rov.--Redaktor 22:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Just ran into this interesting reference: Wiesel, Elie, Souls on Fire: Portraits and Legends of Hasidic Masters: ISBN 0-671-44171-X, Random House, 1972. None other than Nobel Prize winning author, Elie Wiesel, wrote about him. Apparently, he had a connection with the intertwined Apter / Ruzhiner dynasties, as he was in training as a Ruzhiner before the Holocaust caught up with him. Anyway, on page 143-144 he profiles R. Abraham Joshua Heshel and he calls him "Apter Rebbe".--Klezmer 15:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heshel vs. Heshl

Sorry Redaktor, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. We need to keep all instances of the name "Hershel" with two vowels in it, not "Heshl" with only one vowel. That is the way it is here and elsewhere and that is the official Library of Congress transliteration scheme of העשיל, which in Hebrew/Yiddish also has two vowels. For consistency purposes, we need to keep it the same everywhere in wiki.--Klezmer 18:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I gather you do not speak Yiddish. The second vowel in העשיל is יל so that is accounted for by the final -l in the romanization. The use of the letter י in this case is the traditional spelling of the unstressed shvo (see e.g. Grammar of the Yiddish language by Dovid Katz. Nowadays the י is omitted and the name is spelt העשל.

It makes perfect sense to use the spelling Heshl for the Yididsh kinui of Yehoshua and the spelling Heshel for the surname; this makes it clear that the two are not identical.

Please point me to the Library of Congress scheme for traditionally spelt Yiddish.--Redaktor 22:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Have fun, man! Library of Congress Transliteration Tables--Klezmer 01:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)