Talk:Avraham Stern

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[edit] Old talk

A very very one-sided article that violates all the NPOV rules. Phrases like "freedom fighter" (for someone who attacked a civilian bus - btw his name was Shlomo, not Moshe) are unacceptable. Some of it is whitewash, like the WWII paragraph that fails to mention Stern's repeated attempts to negotiate an agreement with the Axis that involved Lehi fighting for the Nazis? In fact, why is he "Yair" and not "Stern" as an encyclopedia should have? This article reads like it was written by his mother. Btw, he was probably murdered but he was not tied up first. He was shoved towards the window and "shot while trying to escape". -- bdm


Hello again. Orignally the piece was published by the publishing company Hotza'at Yair in Israel, and the original text was written by Israel Eldad. It is I who translated it into ENglish from the original Hebrew, and I thought there would be no problem with publishing my own tranlsation, however the English version is about to be published as well. It is therefore that I decided to remove the article. --Yiftach Ofek

There's still some POV stuff here: "He was executed for his role as leader of the Lehi" but I'm going to leave it. Jhobson1 13:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Moving to talk:

Avraham Stern's memorial day is attended every year by Israeli political and government officials.

IOW, Israeli officials are accused of memorializing a terrorist. Proof please? Humus sapiens 06:48, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Stern is treated as national hero across a wide spectrum of Israeli politics (not only the right). I've seen his annual memorial on TV, though it was quite a few years ago. There were certainly politicians there. Don't forget that a considerable number of Knesset members are the children of people (until recently, the people themselves) who were in the Irgun or Lehi in 1948, and of course don't forget that Stern's disciple Shamir even got to be Prime Minister. From the 1950s onwards there was a gradual "rehabilitation" of the image of the Irgun and Lehi, accelerating for obvious reasons in the Menachem Begin period. I'll find a picture of the Stern commemorative stamp... --Zero 07:31, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I apologize. Guess I'll have to eat my hat now. Humus sapiens 07:53, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
it's all relative... it's in the middle, he should have been treated as national hero of course since he played a large part in Israel's independence from the British, but during most of the years Mapai's powers clouded his memory as well as all history of the underground groups. This has gradually changed but he's still not a pivot in Israeli politics and usually you won't find too many prominent Israelis on his grave on memomrial day - in fact, not even on Begin and Zabotinsky recently after Kadima's creation. Amoruso 13:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Says a lot about the modern State of Israel and contemporary Zionism when they officially celebrate a terrorist who targeted innocent civilians and sought an alliance against the British with Nazi Germany. While Britain fought the Nazis in Europe and North Africa, and Hitler was exterminating the Jews, Stern and his gang blew up civilian buses, murdered British troops and attacked Arab villagers in the name of Israel. And then he knocked on Hitler's door. Israeli kids don't have a chance. 80.6.30.24 02:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arabs in the Stern Gang?

This I find extraordinarily hard to believe, and I am going to delete it until someone gives a good source. Also, I think it is quite problematic if we use a piece by Eldad for Wikipedia's article on Stern (see discussion above). Wasn't Israel Eldad one of the most influential ideologues and members of this group? Would we use an article by Abu Jihad for the article on Yassir Arafat? I think not. I will also rephrase the paragraph on the death/murder of Stern, for better neutrality. Arre 22:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't find it so impossible and I have seen it in other places. However, it can stay out until an actual citation is found. --Zero 23:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, not impossible, but since they were a virulently anti-Arab terrorist group, it doesn't seem very likely either. But of course there's exceptions to the rules. Some Jews on the anti-Zionist lunatic fringe support the PFLP too. But that is such a marginal thing, just as I suspect this would be, that it hardly deserves mentioning. And if it does, it has to be phrased in such a way that it is not misunderstood to mean that PFLP support among Jews (or Stern support among Arabs) is an essentially normal thing, albeit uncommon. Arre 02:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
it should be noted that the Lehi wasn't anti-arab at all but simply anti-brittish.
removed "terrorist" - POV.

[edit] Disambig needed

There was also a 19th century Polish Jewish poet of that name...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  08:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hazani

Brief bio of Moshe Hazani published with his article: "MOSHE HAZANI, PHD, is a lecturer in the Department of Criminology and the Interdisciplinary Department of Social Sciences at the Bar Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel. He received his Ph.D. from the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, for a study focusing on psychohistory. His major field of interest is deviance related to extreme worldviews, such as religiously sanctioned terrorism, racism and its manifestations, genocide (Nazi, communist, and western), and crimes committed by people involved in revolutionary movements. Dr. Hazani is also a columnist in the Israeli press." Anyone reading the article will immediately see that my summary of it is extremely conservative. Hazani in fact argues that the thanatophilia (love of death) Stern shared with the Nazis was one of the things that attracted him to the possibility of a German alliance. I may yet add more of Hazani's theories to the article. --Zerotalk 04:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't seem of any interest to this article. Perhaps it belongs in an article about Hazani. When I have the time I'll write a complete biography of Yair, this is a short summary and there's no room for psychoanalysis here or fringe articles concerning his mind when there are many people still living who actually know the person. He was always willing to die for his cause, it's true. Amoruso 10:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Executed

Are there an other sources about how Stern died? Thanks, --Tom 15:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There is the British version and the Lehi version. The one in the article is an extreme Lehi version (usually the handcuffs are absent from the story). Obviously both versions should be presented, but until now this has not been possible due to pov-pushers. --Zerotalk 09:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
My grandmother-in-law was present at the shooting of Stern. Although we have diametrically opposed political views, I do not think that she is lying when she states that Stern was handcuffed before being shot. She does not claim that he was shot from behind. I'm trying to give the reference, but there is a difficulty with typing and formatting Hebrew in references in English text; I'll have another go later. משה וטובה סבורעי, מאצ"ל ללח"י , הוצאת המחברים, שקד 1989 , עמ׳356-63 Since this is an obscure source, I could scan the relevant pages and link to them, if someone would tell me how. RolandR 14:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There is only one version. Morton, Stern's murderer, admitted eventually that he killed Stern from behind.

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 10:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] latest revisions

Please refer to the page of Lehi(group) before (wrongly) reverting this page again. First of all, Mass reverting is not allowed. And during the revisions, information such as the hebrew word for immigration to the homeland of Israel was deleted. This is not an allowed behavior on wikipedia. Secondly, the idea that Lehi referred to itself as a terrorist organization based on a false quotation put in by someone who didn't even read the source, lest the original source, is pure WP:OR. The german proposal also has been discussed in length at the appropriate article, which refutes some of the unequivocal statements appearing here. Amoruso (talk) 15:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Take up your complaints with David Yisraeli,who first cited the material in his doctorate at Bar Ilan University in 1974, The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945.Nishidani (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Your childish reply has nothing to do with the issues I'm afraid. Amoruso (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not interested in your fears. Your attempt to edit the documentary record and remove information that is well-known, and frequently cited in scholarship, consists of pretexts based on false claims about ostensible WP:OR violations. Reporting what a Stern gang text says of its terroristic methods does not constitute original research, but simply annotates the facts.Nishidani (talk) 09:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
One article, unsigned and unknown who wrote it, does not prove anything. Taking anything from it and using it in a blatant childish and pov-warrior-like way constitutes WP:OR and a grave violaton of wikipedia guidelines. Repeating information that you've never seen more than once in the same article is also POV pushing. Such behavior will not be tolerated. Amoruso (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Such behaviour will not be tolerated. By whom? You are the recent editor to take exception with the edit, and your reasons show you are not familiar with the books from which that material is taken. Nothing you write in here makes much sense, so I presume you are grasping at straws to remove information you personally dislike.Nishidani (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying you read that work ? that you are familiar with the subject ? Please don't resort to that... With all due respect, the situation of the german proposal is already explained, in detail, in the Lehi (group) article. The article mentioning the word "terror" is also mentioned there. It's difficult therefore to presume WP:AGF here although I'm really trying to. If your sole objective is to insert words like "terrorist" or other words to stain the article, then I think you're not contributing to the article, and you should take it elsewhere. Amoruso (talk) 01:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes I've read the work. Lehi and Stern described their acts as as 'terroristic' and therefore, on wiki rules, they can be described as 'terrorists'. It's as simple as that. Nishidani (talk) 10:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Nope, you just proved that you're lying. That's because they've never done that. There's only one unsigned article. In fact, Shamir has written specifically that their acts can not be called terroristic, therefore it's also contradictory to fact. Amoruso (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Your objection is based on what you perceive to be the truth, i.e. your OR. We are not to judge the truth of sources, but to give verifiable sources of reliable quality, which both Yisraeli and Brenner (to note but two of many historians who use that document) are. Go read the rulebook.Nishidani (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
You're not adding anything new to the article but misquoting (the terrorist issue). Amoruso (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Same dispute moved to Lehi (group)

There I refuted the allegation of the terrorist "admission", which is an WP:OR anyway. Please refer to there. Amoruso (talk) 03:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)