Talk:Avigdor Miller

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Contents

[edit] Legal Name

The Rav's legal name was Victor for those wondering.--רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 06:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Provide a source and put it in! JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
It was on his official letterhead. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 21:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rav Millers view on food

can somebody please work on this paragraph and place it in the article?

Rabbi Miller's view on food was different from that of other Rabbis. While other rabbis, using the Mussar approach, would consider the eating of foods such as pizza as a pleasureable activity which should be minimized, Rabbi Millers view was that such foods, having been created by god, should be eaten and enjoyed to the fullest, so that one should be able to give thanks to god for the delicious delacacies that he created. 14:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Provide a source and put it in! JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anemic!

This is the most anemic collaboration! People - spew some text so I can copyedit it... I suck at actually writing articles, it appears... - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Find any odd obituary and work it into the article. JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] global warming quote

Um, Nesh, are there any other quotes we could put in instead of wht you have there, something that is not so... gratuitously inflammatory, and perhaps more related to the subject at hand. Something Torah'dik, not political like that? - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmm... I see the problem. However, I didn't add the quotes, so I reckon they should be left for the moment until we find their source. Many thanks, Nesher 15:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's from Rav Avigdor Miller Speaks published by Artscroll. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 21:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure it's real - but it's still inappropriate. - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] slept on a board

Rabbi miller looked exteremly young even at a very old age, with a black-ish beard.... he slept on a wooden board at night?

16:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lead section

He is not notable for his work at that yeshiva, if he is popular its only for his tapes due to his lectures so this is the main lead not some small relative unnoticeable job he held for a few years in chaim berlin. which he was thrown out of and the head of that yeshiva did not even attend his funeral although he lives just a few blocks down--יודל 15:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. It's WP:OR to state that he gained world renown for haredi Jews. Yossiea (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks I fixed that concern.--יודל 15:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Secondly, and totally irrelevant, he served for 20 years as Mashgiach. That's not some non-event. Yossiea (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
It is irrelevant because this job was not that big, he never spoke public speeches and never was considered a real mentor or rabbi there he was a plain door man to punish students who came late to Bais Hamedrash, when he tried influencing Yeshiva policy regarding science studioes they throw him out like a dog, and shamed him publicly by not attending his funeral which was the biggest mass of Jews assembled in modern history only third to rav feinstein and rav yoel titalbaum, thus making this job factor a non unimportant period which nobody is proud and tries to especially note, this is a unimportant detail in his overall noticeability factor so it does not belong in the lead section.--יודל 15:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that I look again, the lead already states that he was an author and lecturer, so your added bit is redundant. Yossiea (talk) 15:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, i did not recognize that, i fixed it as well.--יודל 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1) Removing the Chaim Berlin thing is wrong. He served there for twenty years, that is way notable to be included. 2) You don't need to re-write the lead. It was fine as is. 3) Since English is not your first language, I will point out that accumulate is not really what you're trying to say. 4) A lead should not have that much detail. The way it is now is fine, and anything else can go in the article, if it's warranted. Yossiea (talk) 17:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot disagree with u more, his claim to fame must be in the lead, and his job at chaim berlin should be deleted from the lead section. i will await third party opinion on this, since we have both expressed our opinion very clear.--יודל 18:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
His claim to fame is in the lead. It mentions his being an author and lecturer. Secondly, being a mashgiach for 20 years is a big chunk of change. something like that should certainly be in the lead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yossiea (talk • contribs) 18:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
He was not the Mashgiach in the litvish sense of the word so this job wasn't that memorable, i don't believe it should be in the lead of his biography.--יודל 19:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
So now you're a baki in Litvisher yeshivas and their jobs? He was a mashgiach there for 20 years. That's a fact. 20 years is a good enough chunk to warrant a mention in the lead. Yossiea (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi to both of you. Per a request for a third opinion, I'm weighing in on this. I'd like to point out that both of you are approaching a violation of the three-revert rule. The edit warring really needs to stop. (Note that this is not an endorsement of one side or the other, I'm not qualified to have an opinion there). While it's great that there's a discussion taking place on the pages, at this point it might be more productive to attempt some sort of [[WP:DISPUTE| dispute resolution. Best, --Bfigura (talk) 22:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Miller and Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin

Doing some research on this, even on Wikipedia, reveals how wrong and strange Yidisheryid (talk · contribs) edits are and how he will stop at nothing to twist the truth.

User:Yidisheryid says that Rabbi Miller:

  • "is not notable for his work at that yeshiva" (Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin) when in fact it was the head of that yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner (1906-1980) who plucked Rabbi Miller out of obscurity as a small town rabbi and set him up in the prestigious post of mashgiach ruchani of the yeshiva, a post which Rabbi Miller held for over twenty years and which launched his fame in the Haredi world.
  • "he is popular its only for his tapes due to his lectures" -- how so?, when there is notability and popularity, and they are being confused here. Haredi rabbis are not into running "popularity" contests. What is important is if they held senior posts or were/are recognized as spiritual leaders via their influece and/or writings, which was the case with Rabbi Miller while he was mashgiach at Chaim Berlin.
  • "some small relative unnoticeable job he held for a few years in chaim berlin" -- is a blatantly false assertion because the position was major, Rabbi Miller literally ruled the daily running of the yeshiva in his time, as was his mandate (while Rabbi Hutner, as rosh yeshiva focused on his select students and his famous ma'amarim.) There was a serious agreement between Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Hutner about a divison of duties, powers and responsibilities and Rabbi Miller held that very public job for over twenty years!
  • "the head of that yeshiva did not even attend his funeral although he lives just a few blocks down" --huh? Which head? Rabbi Hutner died twenty one years before Rabbi Miller, so how does that add up? Pure slander. If what is meant is the next rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Aaron Schechter, then both he and Rabbi Yaakov Perlow (head of Agudath Israel) attended Rabbi Miller's funeral at his small shull on Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn. Rabbi Miller's oldest son-in-law has had an important teaching position in Chaim Berlin for over thirty years, and some of Rabbi Miller's grandchildren also attended the yeshiva. The other later rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Yonasan David (Rabbi Hutner's son-in-law) lives in Israel except for a few weeks per year. So User:Yidisheryid is concocting things in violation of WP:NOR.
  • "he was a plain door man to punish students who came late to Bais Hamedrash" -- this statement is utter rubbish because as the mashgiach Rabbi Miller spoke privately or publicly to any student he wished about anything he chose to and he was very much a mentor and leader to all students during his tenure. He was appointed to supervise students (which is what the word "mashgiach" means: "supervisor"!) and not to "spoke public speeches" which was the job of the rosh yeshiva/s. Rabbi Miller did give select charburas ("group meetings") to students who wished to follow his ways even closer. He was an integral and major part of the yeshiva. Nobody threw anybody out like a dog. There was an amicable parting of the ways over other issues outside of the yeshiva, relating to Rabbinic politics (nobody knows for sure what the real issues were behind closed doors) which happend only when the yeshiva relocated to a different neighborhood in any case, but he was never thrown out or banned in any way. Some still read his books and preach his ideas there! He went back and was welcomed many times after he left to run his own community full time. Sheesh.
  • "claim to fame" was fourfold: Mashgiach at Chaim Berlin Yeshiva, author of his unique books, recording and spreading of his tapes, and running his shull and community. He never attended conventions. And he disagreed with a number of the policies of Agudath Israel. In Satmar he is held in high regard by some, especially since Rabbi Miller was an early eloquent voice against the influences of Zionism. So those who wish, try to read his books. He was an "anti-Zionist" which is why some may like him. But Rabbi Miller's life and family had nothing to do with Satmar. Rabbi Miller came from a Jewish non-religious family as a boy in Baltimore. He went to YU, then to the Slabodka yeshiva in Lithuania. He married one of the Slabodka rabbi's (Rabbi Yaakov Moshe Lessin) daughters. Rabbi Lessin later worked for Yeshiva University, decidely not anti-Zionist. It was thanks to Rabbi Hutner only that Rabbi Miller was saved from the oblivion of being a totally unkown and unpopular small town rabbi in Chelsea, Massachusetts (he was fighting with his communuty, and it was they who wanted him out), and he was then miraculously catapulted overnight into a major position of the highest order and responsibilty in any yeshiva that of mashgiach ruchani based on what Rabbi Hutner had heard about him from people in Slabodka. Rabbi Hutner chose him because Rabbi Miller was first a great Torah scholar, and had "guts" with lots of personality and a way with words that they hit there target and he knew that Rabbi Miller would make a huge impact and impression on the yeshiva's student body, and so he did. And as is normal, the tenures of faculty come to an end and that allows others to be appointed. But it does not diminish or call for a demeaning of Rabbi Miller's record at, and contribution to, the Chaim Berlin yeshiva as mashgiach ruchani.
  • "He was not the Mashgiach in the litvish sense of the word so this job wasn't that memorable" -- is not true. While in Eastern Europe the role of mashigach ruchani was very powerful, sometimes more powerful than rosh yeshiva, and in America the rosh yeshivas have grown in influence. But that does not in any way diminish from the fact that being a mashgiach ruchani in one of the world's oldest and best known yeshivas is a very major and notable position and must be mentioned.

So it's pretty obvious that User:Yidisheryid is very misguided about his edits. IZAK 22:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner did not make famous rabbi miller, nor did he became more famous at that point. It was rabbi Hutner who tried to capitalize on rabbi miller not the other way around, keep in mind that the home town where rabbi miller was a Rabbi had at some point in time the most Jews in America. and the local papers have even reported on rabbi milers work there, it was only after he came to new york that he went into relative silence. Rabbi miller has tens of books and thousands of followers, rabbi hutner while considered a great pioneer in opening that yeshiva does not have that Noteability at all, not even close. Rabbi miller did something that no rabbi has done, he stayed true to his principals and wasnt afraid of nothink, he was pushed out of rabbi Hutners yeshiva and he was unwelcome everywhere because they did not like his open un-political style of saying the word of G-d. --יודל 22:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  2. rabbi miller was a very unknown leader while he was in that job, there are many many peaple who have hold his job there and arnt worthy of an article, it was a relative un-publick position, and he held many positions more important and honerbe that this particular job, he was a real educater with shiurim in bais yakov over in chaim berlin he did not teach anything. he did not come to fame only throgh his tapes and lectures.--יודל 22:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  3. Rav ahron shechter was not by the funeral. and IZZAK cannot find any source to his false claim.
  4. Rav Perlow was not by his funeral and does not represent cahim berlin. nor does he have any relation with chaim berlin yeshiva, user Izzak does not have any source to this false claim, He did speak at a a later event said some kind words about rabbi miller in the name of Agudes Yisruel and in the name of Yeshivas Chaim berlin, so in essence, if user IZZAK says himself thet rabbi miller wasn't part of the Agudas Yisruel and that rabbi perlow did speak about his relation with agudas yisruel, why would he say that rabbi Perlow is indeed telling the truth about Yeshivas Chaim berlin?
  5. rabbi miller did not have any eading role as IZZAK claims, its a lie, and he hasn't brought any source, he was a minimal supervisor that the students should not come late, non of his followers are chaim berlin students and they are not fond of him, indeed his only fame came from the tapas he gave in his own shull, and only people outside of Chaim berlin did atent that shmozzen, his noteblity has nothing to do with that job in that yeshiva.--יודל 22:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, (1) Rabbi Aaron Schechter was at one time a : student of, colleague and friend of Rabbi Miller. It is known to those who knew them. (2) Rabbi Perlow was a full-time student at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin and its Kollel Gur Aryeh and he was a public disciple of Rav Hutner. (3) Rabbi Perlow was one of the speakers at Rabbi Miller's funeral, that's a fact. (4) I did not say anywhere that Rabbi Perlow spoke about Rabbi Miller's "relation" with Agudath Israel! All I said was that Rabbi Perlow, a disciple of Rabbi Hutner and Chaim Berlin yeshiva, spoke at the funeral of Rabbi Miller, and they were words of praise for and about Rabbi Miller. Rabbi Perlow did not talk about any politics, only about the greatness of Rabbi Miller. (5) For twenty one years Rabbi Miller was the mashgiach ruchani at Chaim Berlin yeshiva. During that time he became a legend in his lifetime in the yeshiva and outside of it (even if it has been a long time and some may not know this or deliberately wish to block it out.) It was then that he began to formulate his ideas for his books based on his discussions with students. (6) Twenty years on the job as masgiach ruchani at one of the top yeshivas in America is notable by any yardstick. (7) Without Rabbi Hutner, Rabbi Miller would have been out on the street and who knows what the Haredi world may have lost if not for Rabbi Hutner's brilliant intervention and act of skillful leadership. I have to go, it's almost Shabbat. IZAK 22:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

YY, your statements are contradictory and also false. How could R' Hutner want to capitalize on R' Miller by making R' Miller a mashgiach, if he was a nobody? Secondly, you state that R' Miller was a rabbi in a community that had the largest number of Jews in America. That is false. No city in Massachusetts EVER had the most Jews in America. Yossiea (talk) 01:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Listen Chelsea Massachusetts had tens of thousands of jewish famemlies it was not like IZAAK makes it as a smal town, also i did not say R' Miller was a nobody. thats what IZZAK says, i say he was an angel and the bigest jew america ever had, but he wasnt known and was never recognised, R' Hutner did saw in him the greatness and he hired him for that job. But the job has nothing to do with R' Milers greatness and therefore should not be part of the lead--יודל 12:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
You stated that he was a rav in a town which at one point in time had the most Jews in America. That is false. Secondly, the fact remains that he was mashgiach for 20 years. That is notable enough to be in the lead. Yossiea (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for Ruining the Article

YY, I just want to say thanks. It is because of people like you and Daniel and others like you that scare away editors with your pushing your POV across. You ruined this article with your edits. You have taken a pretty good article and just mangled it to no end with many nonsensical edits. You state on your page that English is not your mamme lushon, well can you please then leave the English wiki alone? I'm not saying this as an attack, but many of your edits make no sense. Yossiea (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your personal attack, i love it when u do nothing all day but running around deleting articles together with the other name yeshiva, keep on exposing yourself, to the point: i have added 16 important edits if u don't like it lets talk or if you find something improper in language just fix it and don't talk. good luck my friend.--יודל 14:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category

The category "Creationists" was added. There's a statement in the article to support it, and certainly he like essentially all Haredi rabbis would have been an opponent of evolution, but there needs to be some documentation that he was significant enough in this respect to warrant the category. DGG (talk)

most of his work is indeed in this regard i will make in my business to reference his books, meanwhile i am busy getting the more basic biographical stuff in here as u can see. Also i don't know if he was original in those works but he surely helped further the creationist agenda between Jews through so many of his thousands of lectures in this regards he was unique then all other hareidi rabbis, who are shy from quoting evolutionists, he quoted them openly and frequently and tried to dispute their claims of evolution without a G-d.--יודל 19:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, from his works he seems more outspoken about it than other rabbis. --Eliyak T·C 17:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)