Talk:Avenue Q

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[edit] Too long Synopsis?

The synopsis seems to go on for page after page after page, telling every single part of the show. Can we get something more concise in there, so people have a reason to see it?

I did some substantial editing/shortening and removed the {plot} tag from the main page, since I thought it had been cleaned up enough that the warning was no longer necessary. I'm sure it could use some additional polishing, though! Thatotter 03:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)thatotter

Well, that's certainly a big improvement! I combined some of the short paragraphs into longer ones. Sleep on it and give it another quick once over. I think it's pretty close now. -- Ssilvers 06:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] May 28th, 2006?

A second production of Avenue Q opened on September 8, 2005 in the Broadway Theatre, a $40 million, 1,200 seat venue built to house the production at the Wynn Las Vegas hotel/casino, which only lasted about nine months before closing on May 28th, 2006 due to poor ticket sales and building conflicts.

Um, as I write this, May 28 is a few months away. Why's this in past tense? Or are the years wrong? - furrykef (Talk at me) 07:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed that myself reading though it, so I changed the original wording and added a reference. --Fxer 22:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Princeton's College

According to creator Jeff Marx, Princeton attended Cornell University, but Marx later decided that Princeton's college ought to be left unknown and that any rhyme with "swell" should not exist in a Broadway musical. It is unfortunate that I cannot find a citation for this, as I understand that this comment should not be in the article without verification. I attended a presentation by Jeff Marx and he made this comment. Princeton originally had a full verse in "It Sucks to Be You" where this comment was made.--Xtreambar 17:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Producer Jeffery Seller says in his Compact Broadway interiew that Princeton graduated from Princeton University.208.54.14.9 06:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simulated puppet sex

...its adult content and "full puppet nudity" (including graphic simulated sex between puppets)

I love this. So the puppets don't actually have sex? Flapdragon 13:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)\

Being as though puppets do not have fully functional sex organs, I don't think they could actually have sex. Fllmtlchcb 21:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, the Princeton and Kate Monster puppets used in that scene stay under the sheets and you don't see whether or not they have "fully functional sex organs". Trekkie Monster stays in his apartment while having sex with himself. I don't know whether the puppets could actually have sex or not.208.54.14.73 06:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL, this "full puppet nudity" thing cracks me up. Janet6 02:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

In the Stockholm production, they aren't under the sheets, and are shown having sex in several positions —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.55.94.35 (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Yes but as the Kate and Princeton are puppets (not marionettes) they don't have too many body parts below the waist, GCW50 10:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

In the original Broadway productions, you do see them in several positions above the sheets. And the Kate Monster puppet has breasts, so... ;) ~ PH DrillSergeant...§ 15:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rod and Bert

In the character section, Rod is stated as a parody of Bert. Not only have I never heard this for fact, but I do not see any parody resemblance. At most, it seems subjective. Anyone have a citation or substantial evidence?--kubfann 02:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure it's only inferred, but Rod and Nicky are adult versions of Bert and Ernie. Since Nikki and Ernie have not only the same basic look but voice actor as well, it can be said that Rod is most likely Bert. It's not a fact, more of an assured inference. Fllmtlchcb 10:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This was clear to me the very first time i listened to any of the songs, and since it is puppets, and the same actor, it's pretty much clear that it is indeed a parody. Josh 23:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd infer it from the way Rod laughs on "My Girlfriend From Canada", and the esoteric subjects he enjoys (1940s musical theater) from "If You Were Gay". 203.167.75.51 23:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm nominating this!

Even though I'm a relatively new editor (just 150 contributions old), I really think this is a solid article, and one of the best that WikiProject Musical Theatre has to offer. With that in mind, I am nominating it for featured article status. (Be Bold!) I do think it needs a little bit of work to actually get there, but not that much. A little attention is all it needs, I think. :) MrCheshire 20:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is hardly even close to FA status. I noticed you haven't offically nominated it yet, and I would suggest that you don't. It's got too much fancruft and not enough references. Try putting it through GA and PR first. — warpedmirror (talk) 20:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, that's fair. I figured it was worth a shot, though. MrCheshire 04:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It need a lot of work. For example, the section headings don't even conform to WP:MoS. --Usgnus 17:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOT the Venetian

Who the heck vandalized the page?! There are numerous news sources saying that Avenue Q opened up at WYNN LAS VEGAS, not the Venetian, and now the page says it was conceived for a hotel that it never even opened at! I'm fixing it right now, but I can't even understand the humor in it...it's just annoying!...

[edit] London Changes

This is original research, and thus can't be included in the entry, but when I saw the show in London on 13 September, there were some differences from what was listed here. Gary was still Gary, but his verse began "I used to be the cutest black kid on TV / I made a lot of money that my parents stole from me." He was also referred to as the "handyman" rather than the "superintendent."

One thing that may have been added to the London show was during the money collecton scene. Princeton remarks that they collected "a coin that says 'Euro' on it," and remarked that you can't buy anything with that. Considering the weakness of the Euro relative to the GBP, that seemed like it may have been an add, but as I never saw the show on Broadway, I can't be sure. Brad E. Williams 19:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In the Broadway version, the line is improvised by Princeton each night depending on what's found in the hat, so I imagine it's done similarly in London. When I saw it, he said, "Ooh, a MetroCard! I'll take that." --Birdhombre 20:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

When I saw it on Broadway, someone put their phone number in the hat, and Princeton said "I'll call for a good time." and then Foa pocketed it. XD Fllmtlchcb 23:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

He mentioned a MetroCard in the version I saw as well. ~ PH DrillSergeant...§ 15:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign productions

i wanted to know if the foreign productions in Sweden and other non-english speaking countries; are localised(lyrics translated from english to Swedish), or will they be produced in the original English language.--SamiKaero 17:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The Swedish production has translated book and lyrics according to the website -- 195.242.43.66 09:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The Finnish production's website has them singing in Finnish (or at least it's a language that I don't understand!) -- Ssilvers 15:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of the show

There isn't any here, is there? There certainly are critical comments out there, for example that there's lots to like about the show, but most of it is in the first act. Lovingboth 22:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect criticism would be fine, but the Wiki-gestapo like to have criticisms cited from outside sources (regular media critics) and not "regular people". So if you want to put in something based on a media critic and cite it, I'm sure it would be fine. --Fandyllic 11:25 AM PDT 20 Aug 2007

[edit] The Internet is for Porn

Should this song have it's own page? I mean, it's the most popular song in the musical and that is how tons of people find out about it. Not to mention, all of the videos on YouTube. I really think it would be a good idea. The Quidam 00:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Closing in Vegas

The comment that the show was closed despite being profitable seems dubious to me, so I've requested a source. However, if the 65% number is indeed correct it is worth noting that the big attraction for a show like this in a Las Vegas casino is to draw customers into the resort who will then dine, shop, and gamble. The actual monetary profit from the ticket sales of show is to some extent superflous compared to the overall revenues of the resort. Seen in that light, a show selling only 65% of its seats, despite some profit, could go a long way towards explaining its closure.

[edit] External links

Are all these external links really useful? Some should probably be weeded out. Also, I kind of expected a link to the claimed internet phenomenon "The Internet is for Porn" but there wasn't one. // habj 22:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

By all means, edit away. See WP:BOLD. -- Ssilvers 06:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning up the article

I have put some work in to this article, but it is still loaded with unencyclopedic information, POV and hardly relevant trivia, and much of the prose is poor. It desperately needs referencing. The plot summary is still too long. Facts are internally inconsistent. The cast lists full of non-notable actors should be cut down more. The last sections of the article about events, etc. are the worst. See Porgy and Bess for a Featured Article on a show that has good writing and appropriate length sections. -- Ssilvers 17:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I killed the CD tracklist. We have already listed the musical numbers above. Plus, we list, in gorey detail the differences between the Broadway songlist and every other version. -- Ssilvers 17:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

In answer to a question I received, Broadway and the West End are the main venues for English-language musicals. The Las Vegas production information should be slimmed down, and the Broadway production information could be expanded as to the genesis of the show and put into the same section as Background, with subheadings for the Broadway cast list and other Broadway-specific info, leaving just overview information (see WP:LEAD) in the introduction.

West End productions do not belong under an "International" heading. Full cast info is not notable except in London and Broadway (and even there, ensemble and swings really should not be listed, unless those actors are notable in their own right and have blue-links). Other casts should only discuss notable actors who are blue-linked. National Tour casts should certainly only mention major principal roles and any other notable actors with articles. See the WP:MUSICALS' "Article Structure" page for more suggestions. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Article Structure vs. WP:Musicals' "Article Structure"?

I am concerned that the article content, despite recent updates, is not converging to the WP:MUSICALS' "Article Structure". The recommended article structure specifies a "Productions" section, not separate sections for Broadway and London (or Vegas or Sweden). Perhaps the WP:MUSICALS' "Article Structure" is flawed in this regard?

I agree that there could be a "productions" section. I'm just saying that the productions on Broadway and the West End deserve more detail than the others. -- Ssilvers 02:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe the WP:MUSICALS' "Article Structure" is also flawed in NOT including full cast info for each production. This guideline would appear to violate the WP:NPOV as to what character and/or performer is "notable" and result in disputes. I don't have the history on how this particular item was included in the guideline. I propose that complete Production cast information is more important than saving a few lines of screen space. Since content in the WP:Musicals' "Article Structure" is limited to major professional productions, i.e. Broadway, London, Tours, International, including full cast information is appropriate to ensure the information on each production is fully referenced in the article. Feedback please....Lrettberg 02:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

See WP:N and WP:BIO. The object is not to "fully reference" all the information in the world about a show – the object is to select the most important information. Ensemble, swings and understudies for shows are just not notable. Someday, these people may become stars, but they are not now, and readers can click the link at the bottom of the page if they want to read their names. Casting information for actors in even small speaking or singing roles who are not notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles can be found in the external links. If an actor in the National Tour is notable under WP:BIO guidelines, he or she should have his or her own WP article, and then he or she should be blue-linked in the cast list. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 02:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will wait for other perspectives as well. So we don't step on each other, will you be combining the various productions into a single section? Thanks, Lrettberg 05:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No. I'll let you and others consider the various changes I made and work on the article for awhile before I revist it. I do still feel that there is alot of non-notable, un-referenced fancruft in the article regarding the cut songs, the promotional events, etc. On the other hand, I think that the article is missing alot of information about the genesis of the project and the critical reception of the show that could be gleaned from reviews and references, if written well. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bluelinks and other edits

I tried to make the linking consistent. Linked items are only linked the first time they are mentioned(I hope I found them all). I also shortened the character descriptions. I would like to combine the list of characters with the names of the original broadway cast. There are kind of a lot of lists and it makes the article look disorganized. Any thoughts? Thanks-Broadwaygal 19:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be a mess to combine the list of characters with the original cast list, because you would have the description of the characters competing with the names of the actors. Plus, the character list is supposed to describe the characters for all productions of the show, whereas each cast list applies only to a particular production. I see four alternate ways to get rid of all these cast lists: One is to leave it pretty much alone, since we have deleted the most egregious listifying. Second, simply mention the notable actors together with the production details for each production in the narrative paragraph form. Third, someone could make a historical casting table such as appears in Iolanthe, for example. Last is to make a separate article just containing all the cast lists, such as the one linked under "See Also" at the Wicked (musical) article. -- Ssilvers 19:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the way you organized the article by putting the awards together and moving them down. It makes things look a bit more organized Thanks--Broadwaygal 19:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The introduction should describe why the show is notable and include information about the show itself, as the audience sees it, rather than background info. It should also contain information that is an overview of the article, per WP:LEAD. I moved the background information about Henson into the "Background" section. -- Ssilvers 18:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll grant that the Henson info might not belong in the first paragraph. But neither does all that stuff about how the puppets are operated. What's important is that there are many puppet characters, and that the show is an adult version of Sesame Street. DS 17:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be OK to put the stuff about how the puppets are operated in the Background section, but I thought it flowed better this way. I can tell you that, before I saw the show, I was curious about how they were going to work the puppets, so I think that for people reading the article to find out about the show, it answers some of the questions that many of them have. In Sesame Street and in "puppet shows", you generally don't see the actors working the puppets, so it is a very interesting feature of the Broadway show. While I was watching the show I was also very interested to see how one actor voiced a puppet that he or she was not holding at the time, sometimes from another part of the stage. This usually worked pretty well, except for one scene where Lucy the Slut and Kate Monster were both in the same scene. So, I think it is very helpful to explain it to the reader. But if you can think of a smoother way to do it, give it a go. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 18:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Referenced in LICD

Avenue Q has been used in a recent Least I Could Do webcomic strip. Link: http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20070530 Perhaps a cultural reference? Perhaps nothing. Either way

[edit] London Cast

Why was the information on the London cast taken out? The WikiProject Musical Theatre project states "For the original Broadway or West End production, there may be a cast list, with notable actors bluelinked, or the casting may be described in prose. Please do not delete such lists."

Will put it back in but will need to be cleaned up abit because im no good with wikipedia tools . (Mark E 15:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Internet is for Porn as an Internet meme

There's more than enough verifiability of the song as an Internet phenomenon, with many clips being created placing the song over reedited video game footage and even tying in with a real-life Internet meme, Ellen Feiss. The question was asked a few months back, but I think at the very least a section on this phenomenon should be added to the main article, if no one wants to give the song its own. 68.146.47.196 06:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Puppets section

Nice job to whomever added it -- I just edited it down a bit and moved it lower in the article. The only thing I couldn't figure out was this sentence in the double-rod section: "The switch which is on the single-rod puppets are not that common with double-rod puppets." There was no mention in the single-rod section about a switch, and I wasn't sure what this referred to, so I removed it. I have no objection to its inclusion, it just needs a corresponding sentence in the other section. — Music Maker 5376 04:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast lists

I don't think we need all the cast lists in this article, starting with Manila, and I would simply mention the most notable cast members in the text. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Movie Version

I came across some information where a movie version was mentioned as being in progress (towards the bottom of the page):

Movie Version Mention

Should an official mention be made on the main page, or would this not qualify as an official source? Thanks Starmiter (talk) 18:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Generally speaking, blogs should be avoided as sources. However, as this one is an interview with the creators of the show, it's probably okay. On the other hand, it only says that "Marx and Lopez are at work on the movie...". Just because they're working on it doesn't mean that it's been picked up by a studio or that it will ever get made. I would say to hold off on adding this information to the article until there is, you know, ACTUAL information: a studio being announced, a director, casting, etc.

If any other editors want to check this out, the mention is in the 3rd graf from the bottom, so scroll all the way down. — Music Maker 5376 19:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)