Talk:AVE

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"7000 km of high-speed rail operational by the end of the decade" that really a lot since it's a mountagnous country so with tunnels and bridges. Marc Venot 00:05, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] References/Citations

It would be nice to get some citations/more information on:

  • more details as to the reason for the choice of Seville for the inaugural line: just because of Expo '92, or were there other reasons;
  • the allegations of favouritism levelled at Felipe González over the choice of Seville;
  • more information on the punctuality guarantee: in particular, how unique is this? I know from personal experience that AVE punctuality far exceeds at least the TGV and the Italian Eurostar, and think it likely betters Thalys, ICE and Eurostar, but more details would be nice. [This undated article] has some figures, and is where the 0.16% came from, but it would be nice to have a period for this;
  • more on the likely reduction in domestic air travel and the extent to which this is a motivating factor in expansion (short-haul air travel is quite environmentally unfriendly and for this reason there is an EU initiative to encourage train use instead of taking domestic flights - in Spain you can get a discount on your AVE ticket if you can show an international flight ticket in/out dated within 72 hours of your train journey.)
  • more on the issues concerning the connection to the TGV network. The two points mentioned are at opposite ends of the of the border; are they both being considered, or just one, and what are the political implications for the choice? Trains to Paris tend to go through Irun AFAIK, although La Jonquera is nearer to Barcelona (and there will now be a high speed link from Madrid to there.)

-- Blorg 08:08, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to the Ministerio de Fomento (Spanish Public Works Ministry), the punctuality in the AVE Madrid-Seville line has remained above 99% since 1992, reaching 99,58% in 2005 (so far the best year for the line). This means that 99,58% of the trains arrive on time or with a delay of no more than 5 minutes.

[edit] Political rant

Maybe the lengthy political rant at the introduction of the article should be integrated (and NPOVed a little) with the history section. I think that the introduction should be mostly about technical features of the train. --xDCDx 09:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello from Spain. I think the political parts need to stay. In Spain, when you talk AVE, you talk politics. Choosing Madrid-Seville over Madrid-Barcelona was a political decission. Apart from that, Siemens' bribes (alledgely) were important during construction. The role of terrorism is important when you talk AVE. The Army has protected AVE lines recently. The role of PP's minister for construction, Alvarez-Cascos is very controversial. The article reflects all this really well. I know that from a non-Spanish point of view all those politics might seem strange.


Honestly the use of would in this article seemed to violate the no point of view.. that is why I got rid of that statment... no use talking aboud would have or should have...WngLdr34 05:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)WngLdr34

But those comparations between links Seville-Madrid and Barcelone-Madrid profitabilities were widely debated topics in Spain, as Siemens' bribes (not so alleged: there was some trials and guilty verdicts) so they shouldn't be eliminated. That there was a heavy public debate is a fact, that deserves a mention; higher profitability in a link Madrid-Barcelona is also a fact, easy to demonstrate if you make comparisons between air traffic Seville-Madrid and Barcelone-Madrid before AVE line was completed. All these statements may be parcial, but his existence is an important cuestion that must be mentioned. Ignacio Egea5 September 2006

[edit] Madrid - Barcelona - Paris

At the moment, there is a direct train service from Madrid to Barcelona which uses the high speed line from Madrid to its current temporary terminus at Lleida, the train continues on existing track to Barcelona. The train uses gauge changing Talgo stock with RENFE's 'Altaria' brand name. These trains can switch from the high speed standard gauge to spanish broad gauge at Lleida. Currently, there are six daily Altaria trains between Madrid to Barcelona taking 5 hours.

From next year, as the Wikepida article suggests, it's quite likely the high speed line will be extended to a new temporary terminus just east of Tarragona. The guage changing Altaria trains will then run on the high speed line all the way from Madrid via Llieda to just beyond Tarragona, and then switch to the existing line for the remaining 50km or so Barcelona. The high speed line will not serve Tarragona, but instead there will be a park and ride station north of city and also within proximity of Reus. This will reduce the journey time from Madrid to Barcelona by possible 30 mins to 4.5 hrs.

Once the standard guage line is complete all the way from Madrid to Barcelona, the purpose built high speed trains can the link the two cities. This will probably be in 2008.

Meanwhile, a high speed line linking Perpignan in France with Figueras in Spain is currently under construction and should be opened in 2009. In turn, there is a high speed line being developed between Figueras and Barcelona. If all these plans come to fruition, by 2009 there will be continous standard guage mostly high speed line from Paris all the way to Madrid opening up all sorts of possibilities for various TGV and AVE services between the two. With a journey time between the French and Spanish capitals of around eight hours, it's unlikely there will a regular through high speed service between the two. However, there may be variations on services connecting closer pairs of cities, for instance Barcelona to Paris in 5 hrs and Barcelona to Merseilles in under 3 hours.

=Since last week (18-12-2006) the line Lleida-Tarragona is operational.

[edit] Barcelona - Alicante

A Spanish Railway map I picked up (http://www.alleuroperail.com/eurorailway-maps/spain-portugal-railway-map.htm) seems to show a high-speed Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante line. Is this not an AVE line? The map doesn't show the partially completed Madrid-Barcelona or the Madrid-Malaga lines referenced in the map, though. - Binand

As far as I know, that is a broad gauge line upgraded for 200 km/h. There are some leftover TGV/AVE units that serve this line that are marketed as Euromed. --Qualle (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

You are totally right, it is not an AVE, but un upgraded broad line, called the Euromed, because it links all the important Mediterranean cities in Spain located in Catalonia and Valencia.

That map (the colouring of the lines on which has more to do with Eurail pass validity than anything else) is, in any case, not very up-to-date (it includes at least two closed lines). Incidentally, AVE and Euromed refer to trains, not lines. The new, purpose-built high-speed lines (Madrid - Sevilla/Lleida etc.) are called líneas de Alta Velocidad (AV); conventional lines upgraded, wholly or in part, to allow faster running are referred to as Velocidad Alta (VA). The distinction is similar to that between Neubaustrecken and Ausbaustrecken in Germany, though in Spain there is also a difference of gauge. AVE trains run (naturally) on Alta Velocidad lines; Euromed trains on Velocidad Alta routes. -- Picapica 11:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lines

>> Currently, five lines make up the AVE system:

>> AVE Larga Distancia (long distance) Madrid-Sevilla (Madrid, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Córdoba, Sevilla) AVE Larga Distancia Madrid-Zaragoza-Lleida (Madrid, Guadalajara, Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida) AVE Lanzadera (shuttle) Madrid-Puertollano (Madrid, Ciudad Real, Puertollano) Talgo 200 Madrid-Málaga (Madrid, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Córdoba, Málaga AV Media Distancia (Mid distance) Madrid - Toledo. <<

To me, the above is incorrect in several respects.

  • There are currently two high-speed lines:
    • Madrid - Sevilla
    • Madrid - Lleida
  • The standard-gauge network currently consists of the above two lines, plus a branch from each:
    • (Madrid -) Alameda de la Sagra - Toledo
    • Zaragoza - Huesca
  • By my count, services operated over that network are of six types, operating over twelve routes:
    • AVE
      • Madrid - Sevilla
      • Madrid - Huesca
      • Madrid - Lleida
    • AV media distancia
      • Madrid - Toledo
    • AVE lanzadera
      • Madrid - Puertollano
      • Córdoba - Sevilla
    • Talgo 200
      • Madrid - Córdoba (continuing, after change of gauge, to Málaga)
    • Altaria
      • Madrid - Sevilla (continuing, after change of gauge, to Cadiz / Huelva)
      • Madrid - Plasencia de Jalón gauge-changer (continuing to Logroño / Pamplona)
      • Madrid - Lleida (continuing, after change of gauge, to Barcelona)
    • TRD
      • Calatayud - Zaragoza
      • Zaragoza - Huesca (some continuing, after change of gauge, to Jaca)

Would anyone like to confirm / correct this information before I attempt to incorporate it in the article? -- Picapica 11:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


There is also a line under construction from Madrid heading north west via Segovia which is not mentioned or shown in red on the map.

[edit] Train failures ?

There's written: >However, it has to be said that both Siemens and Talgo/Bombardier train sets have consistently failed to meet scheduled speed >targets. El Periódico newspaper carried an article in October 2005 reporting that the Talgo/Bombardier train set (nicknamed "El >Pato" or "The Duck" because of the locomotive's bill-like snout) would not be tested at 250 km in the near future.

The Bombardier Train works perfectly up to speeds of 300 km/h. At higher speeds there are troubles with ballast stones hitting the underframe. (The Spanisch AVE does not have a truck substructure without ballast like it is recomended for speeds above 300 km/h)

The Siemens train is not yet delivered. It is years late since the German compnay seems to have trouble to produce the train in Spain and delivers now all trains from their Krefeld factory.

The reasons for the trains not going faster on the AVE line is because they have stil to relay on the old Spanish standard train protection ASFA, since the new ETCS level 1 quipment is not working, neither the fixinstallation nor the onboard installation.

[edit] Fastest long distance train?

I find this frangment of Future developpement section: "When completed, the Madrid-Barcelona line should be the world's fastest long-distance train in commercial operation, with trains billed to reach a top speed of 350 km/h and covering the 600 km between the two cities in just 2.5 hours." quite untrue.
TGV trains already (and this won't rather change) link Paris to Marseilles in 3 hours, which gives both faster journey and longer distance:

  • Average speed:
    • about 250 km/h (750 km in 3 hours) for Paris - Marseilles
    • about 240 km/h (600 km in 2 hours 30) for Madrid - Barcelona
  • Distance
    • about 750 km for Paris - Marseilles, over 700 km on high-speed tracks
    • about 600 km for Madrid - Barcelona

--Madcap pl 08:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In the article it says literally "one of the world's fastest", not "the world fastest". And given the current delays in the paris marseilles line (which I use frecuently) I would never call this line the fastest. Maybe theoretically it is the fastest, but in the real life...

I think average speed and maximum speed are different concepts. Trains can run at 350 Km/h on Madrid-Barcelona line which makes it the fastest line indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.152.231.228 (talk) 20:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Basque Y

I think is not very accurate to define the Basque "Y" as a linkage of the "three" Basques provices. It will link three basques provinces (the ones the "Basque Country" administrative autonomy in Spain) but leaving apart those basque provinces in the sud ouest of France and the Navarra autonomy which has a strong basque heritage and is traditionally considered origin of the Basque identity.

Sure, but Navarra, for most people living in Navarra, is a separate and proud identity that has nothing to do with the basque country (see the results of all the democratic elections that have taken place there). And in France, there is not such a thing as basque "provinces".

As of today, i'm afraid to state that there are 3 basque provinces. The rest have cultural resemblances but they are not administratively

[edit] km/h vs mph

Given that the subject is spanish high speed trains, I think that the main physical units should be km/h as they are in common use in all continental Europe. Franjesus 11:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] place names

Should the place names be the standard English ones or local varieties? For example Sevilla is used here rather than Seville, and there is a mixture between the usage of Lérida and Lleida. The Encyclopaedia Britannica lists Lérida as its article title - therefore is that taken to be the name to be used in English? Jonny1047 15:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Time for a little of 'Typical Spanish': Lérida is the Spanish/Castillian name, and Lleida the Catalonian name. According to the "Diccionario panhispánico de dudas" by the Real Academia Española, Lérida must be used in and only in unofficial texts written in Spanish. The fact that the map (in Spanish) reads Lérida, displaying a correct usage of the name, makes me suggest the possibility of stating the equivalence upon the term's first appearance in the text. Do you think it would be useful?
Even tough it's already been suitably corrected, I found it useful to mention this since a similar question might arise when the AVE reaches Girona (Gerona in Spanish) on its way to the French frontier. I'm changing Sevilla to Seville, by the way.--Ruiz de Elvira 19:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

There are these other names to change, too: Valencia-->València Alicante-->Alacant Figueras-->Figueres Castellón de la Plana-->Castelló de la Plana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.170.21.148 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 23 November 2007

In the map, I've tried to use the English version of the names of the cities. That's why it says "Seville", "Gerone", "Cadiz", "Malaga", "Corunna", "Saragossa", and so on. In fact, I've created so far four versions of this map in Spanish, English, Catalan and Galician, which appear in the corresponding Wikipedias. --Assdl (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 300km/h or 350km/h?

There has been some debate over whether the comments attributed to the minister that the line will be limitted to 300km/h are a journalist's misrepresentation, when they actually meant that it was only raised to 300km/h temporarily and there will be another speed up when ETCS level 2 is available. If this is going to be the final limit, no one has told Siemens, for example. Discussion on Usenet would indicate that 350km/h is still intended. Dpeilow 19:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] date format

just wondered why someone felt it necessary to go through and change the dates from eg. the 12th October 2007 to October 12 2007. I thought that kind of editing was against policy - as in if its a European article leave dates written the 'European' way, and as long as its consistent its ok! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonny1047 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the map (erroneously described as "inaccurate")

Hi all, I've just read that someone has written that the map is "inaccurate". As I created the map myself, I have something to say. My source is a public document of the Spanish Ministry of Development ("Ministerio de Fomento"), in which there are detailed maps about the current and future high speed lines. You can read a complete English translation here.

About the lines in service, please bear in mind that the map states clearly that it is for December 2007. I uploaded the map last October, before the problems in Barcelona line were known, and that's why this line appeared in green. Now that we all know that the AVE trains will only reach Valladolid and Malaga by end December 2007 if there are no more technical problems, I've made a new version of the map updating the situation in Barcelona (now it appears yellow).

As soon as the Barcelona line is opened, probably during the first semester of 2008, I'll update the map again.

--Assdl (talk) 12:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The map also shows much of the line from Valencia to Barcelona as being complete. Sure, it was upgraded in the past couple decades, but not to standard gauge and not to 300km/h. No AVE services use the line. Anyway, thanks for the map, it's a nice addition to the article. Alcuin (talk) 13:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
But you're getting a bit confused with an AVE service and a high-speed line in Spain. They are not synonyms. High-speed rail means 200 km/h or faster, not standard gauge or a line serviced with AVE trains. Between Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante you have the so-called Euromed trains, which are the same AVE trains for Madrid-Seville, but with the traditional Spanish gauge. This line is prepared in some sections for a speed higher than 200 km/h, so it's a high speed line. In the future the gauge will be changed to be the European standard one, as in the other new high speed lines. That's why it's green in the map. The same happens in other sections between Albacete and Valencia or between Seville and Cadiz. If you don't believe, please visit the official site of the Spanish Ministry of Development ("Ministerio de Fomento"), and compare the map with the one here. This document is part of the Spanish Strategic Plan of Infrastructures and Transport 2005-2020, chapter about railways. --Assdl (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there is a difference between 'high speed' and AVE. The AVE lines from Madrid to Sevilla, Barcelona, Valladolid and Malaga are all standard gauge, electrified to 15kV AC, completely double-tracked and designed for ~300km/h operation for most of the route. The Alacant-Barcelona route is broad gauge, electrified to 3kV DC, partly single track, and only capable of 200km/h on some stretches. The Sevilla-Madrid and Alacant-Barcelona routes are about the same length, about 525km. The fastest AVE service from Sevilla to Madrid is 2h30 for an average speed of 210km/h. The fastest EuroMed service from Alacant-Barcelona is 4h46 for an average speed of 110km/h. Even on the fastest portion of the line, from Castello to Tarragona (~190km), the fastest service is 1h19, for an average speed of 140km/h. This map is labeled as a map of the AVE network, and is used in articles about the AVE network, so I think having that line in green is misleading. It is not built to typical AVE standards, and does not carry any services marketed as AVE. By looking at the map, most readers would assume that the line carries AVE services, but it doesn't.

Maybe a bigger issue here is that the AVE article doesn't make it clear enough that the AVE lines are part of a greater project of renovation of Spain's railways. Not all of the upgraded lines will be built for 300km/h. Alcuin (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, Alcuin, but I think we aren't talking about the same thing. We have solved this ambiguity in Wikipedia in Spanish, where we have two different articles High-speed rail in Spain and AVE. Bear in mind that not all high speed lines or sections of lines in Spain are currently serviced with AVE trains. I created the map for the first of the articles, about all high speed lines in Spain (in the criterion of speed higher than 200 km/h), and then I decided to translate it to other languages, including English. The caption of the figure should be changed to "High-speed railway network as of end December 2007", as it appears in Wikimedia Commons. --Assdl (talk) 13:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The solution then is to clear up that ambiguity in the English article as well. Either the article should be greater in scope, to discuss all the ongoing upgrades, or there should be a map (either in addition to, or in place of yours) that specifically shows the AVE lines in operation, under construction or planned. Alcuin (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split articles?

The spanish wikipedia has two separate articles on the subject, es:Alta Velocidad Española, which describes the rolling stock and services, and es:Alta velocidad ferroviaria en España, which describes the network and construction.

I support splitting the english AVE article along similar lines. Spain is currently undergoing a massive renovation of its train network, including (but not limited to) the construction of several new AVE lines. That project needs greater coverage. Alcuin (talk) 16:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see the point, as this is just an article about the AVE services and their lines etc. why not just create a separate article for 'High Speed Rail' in spain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonny1047 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Two articles would indeed be best, I believe. And I think Jonny agrees to that; I don't think Alcuin really ment literally splitting the current text of this article, but rather disentangling the two articles. The two maps show the difference between high-speed lines and AVE services, and along those lines (ahem) a split could well be made. Classical geographer (talk) 09:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AVE in Turkey?

Turkey bought some high-speed train sets from Spain. Are they AVE?--78.180.50.60 (talk) 13:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The trains are not called AVE! They have names like Siemens S-103. AVE is just the brand name applied by RENFE, so unless RENFE is running the trains in Turkey I assume the Turkish rail operator will brand them something else. Jonny1047 (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] La Jonquera?

In the section on other projects: "Another connection to the LGV is also planned, at either La Jonquera in Catalonia or Irun in the Basque Country." La Jonquera is the last town in Spain on the Barcelona-France motorway before the frontier, and lies more or less over the tunnel under construction for the Figueras-Perpignan line. The reference should be deleted. I assume the Irun connection would be an extension from the new line to Valladolid. --JamesWim (talk) 15:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Upgrade of the Irun/Hendaye connection is already planned for the next few years, in conjunction with the Basque Y and upgrades on the Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria line. I think another connection in the middle of the Pyrenees is also planned (but not quite inevitable at this point). It would more or less replace the defunct Canfranc railway, and would extend the (built) Huesca line into France. Alcuin (talk) 00:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alvia

Someone has put down that other lines that are high speed but not AVE are run under the Alvia brand, but what about the EuroMed? is that not considered high speed by the same standards? or the Altaria (does that still exist) - they all run around 200kmh don't they? does anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonny1047 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

   Alvia run partly on the Highspeed network (250km/h) and partly on the old network (up to 200km/h). Euromed run entirely on
   the old network.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.207.161 (talk) 15:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)