Talk:Autonomous communities of Spain

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Why are they "provincias"? We're calling them "autonomous communities", not "comunidades autónomas" or "autonomías"... so what's wrong with "province"? - montrealés

Nothing wrong with province, but the use of Spanish v. English words does not seem to be consistent across Wikipedia. -- Miguel

What are autonomous communities? an explaination would be great. This article could be a lot more than a list: an explaination of what an autonomous community is, what role it plays in the politics of Spain, the history of how they came about ("post-Franco"?) -- the EU might even be relevant (ie. what effect does the EU have on these autonomous communities?). -- Sam

I went and looked at the text of the constitution. If you can read Spanish, follow this link. I cannot find any justification for the following statement:

The Constitution distinguishes "historic" or "fast-track" communities (Basque Country, Catalonia, Galicia and Andalusia) and the "slow-track" rest. The historic ones initially received more functions.

The moral of the story is that myths get propagated and we forget to check the sources even if they're there. I think it is time to write Spanish Constitution of 1978. I know that the major contributors to this page are serious and fluent in Spanish, so we can make a good job of it. -- Miguel

Well, in pratice, the distinction is important: historic autonomies have, for instances, elections in different days from "normal" autonomies. Apart from that, see these articles of the Constitution:
Marco, why don't you add some content to Spanish Constitution of 1978? I'm just an amateur here :-) — Miguel
Hi! I'd love to, but right now it's 3:00am here where I am and so, I'll have to do it some other day...;) But we are all amateurs here, hope you (and all others) will also participate! Cheers!User:Marco Neves

DISPOSICIONES ADICIONALES.

Primera. La Constitución ampara y respeta los derechos históricos de los territorios forales.

La actualización general de dicho régimen foral se llevará a cabo, en su caso, en el marco de la Constitución y de los Estatutos de Autonomía.

and

DISPOSICIONES TRANSITORIAS.

Primera. En los territorios dotados de un régimen provisional de autonomía, sus órganos colegiados superiores, mediante acuerdo adoptado por la mayoría absoluta de sus miembros, podrán sustituir la iniciativa que el apartado 2 del artículo 143 atribuye a las Diputaciones Provinciales o a los órganos interinsulares correspondientes.

Segunda. Los territorios que en el pasado hubiesen plebiscitado afirmativamente proyectos de Estatuto de autonomía y cuenten, al tiempo de promulgarse esta Constitución, con regímenes provisionales de autonomía, podrán proceder inmediatamente en la forma que se prevé en el apartado 2 del artículo 148, cuando así lo acordaren, por mayoría absoluta, sus órganos preautonómicos colegiados superiores, comunicándolo al Gobierno. El proyecto de Estatuto será elaborado de acuerdo con lo establecido en el artículo 151, numero 2, a convocatoria del órgano colegiado preautonómico.

Despite not mentioning specific Autonomies in the text, these articles were clearly aimed at Catalonia, Galicia and Basque Country (with Navarre out of the Autonomic map, since it was made a Foral Community). These autonomies (and Andalucia) also formed autonomous communities in a slightly different fashion than other communities, assuming a large ammount of competences, which other autonomies only got many years later. This is not explicitly stated in the Constitution, but rather implied. User:Marco Neves

I am Spanish. As far as I know, there is no legal document that states that there are "historical communities" and "normal communities". However, this word is generally used in Spanish political language, especially in press. In fact, the difference is mentioned on Geography textbooks. Greetings, 85.57.65.78 (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)



This article of the Spanish Constitution:

Artículo 145.

1. En ningún caso se admitirá la federación de Comunidades Autónomas.

2. Los Estatutos podrán prever los supuestos, requisitos y términos en que las Comunidades Autónomas podrán celebrar convenios entre sí para la gestión y prestación de servicios propios de las mismas, así como el carácter y efectos de la correspondiente comunicación a las Cortes Generales. En los demás supuestos, los acuerdos de cooperación entre las Comunidades Autónomas necesitarán la autorización de las Cortes Generales.

is not where the fact that Spain is not a federation is based. This article simple states that Autonomous Communities cannot unite to form another Autonomous Community. It is in the very first articles of the Constitution that the non-federative status of Spain is declared, when Spain is said to be a unitary state. However, Spain does function as a federation, in practice, with the these important exceptions: in certain cases, Central government can suspend autonomy and Spanish Law is to be considered in case of conflict with autononomic law (with the exception of those aspects where autonomies have exclusive right to legislate). User:Marco Neves

Contents

[edit] Image

I think this article would benefit from a cleaner image, perhaps more like the one on the Provinces of Spain page. - dcljr 00:32, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Names of provinces and capital cities

In Catalunya and Galicia, the provinces and capital cities are listed first in the regional language and then in Castillian (eg Lleida Sp. Lérida) whereas in Euskadi and Valencia they are listed first in Castillian and then in the regional language (eg Alicante Val. Alacant). Is there any particular reason for this, as I'm minded to move them all so they're in local language first then Castillian, but didn't want to just wade in in case there was a reason... edd 13:27, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what the rule is for Wikipedia, but the tendency in Spain is (for instance, on road signs) now for all toponyms to be given in the regional language in larger type and Spanish in smaller type.

The problem is that the political divisions don't match the linguistic reality. For instance, in the Valencian Community, the north (Castelló (Es. Castellón)) is predominantly Valencian-speaking, and the south (Alicante (Va. Alacant)) is predominantly Spanish-speaking. In the Basque country, Gipuzkoa (Es: Guipúzcoa) is predominantly Basque-speaking whereas Álava (Eu: Araba) is predominantly Spanish-speaking.

Catalunya and Galiza experienced a strong renaissance of their local languages in the 19th century, which was less strong in the Basque Country and Valencia.

I would advocate the following:

  • if a traditional English name exists, use that.
  • otherwise, use the local language (which may be either Spanish or the regional language) and list the alternative in parenthesis.
  • Check the pages Spanish language, Catalan language, Galician language and Basque language for information about history and regional distribution. Complain in the talk pages if you are confused.

— Miguel 15:45, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When writing this table, I used, first English names, second the names used by the Spanish statistical authority, whether Spanish or local. - Montréalais 16:41, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In Galicia and Catalonia the provincies and cities have only a official name, it is in the local language (Galician and Catalan) the Spanish name is not official, in Valencia Community and Bascque country, provincies and cities have two official names, in Spanish and local language.----Rocastelo 16:49, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have added a footnote indicating what languages are official. I also removed a small paragraph with unverified information (i.e. Eastern Andalusia secessionism).--Asteriontalk 20:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed tag

"Other communities have a more limited force or none at all (eg. Policía Autonómica Andaluza)."

The Policía Autonómica Andaluza don't exists, it's only an informal project but its creation it is not in the plans of the National or Autonomic government. The only police forces in Spain except Catalonia, the Basque Country and Navarre are the Cuerpo Nacional de Policía, Guardia Civil and Municipality forces.--Menah the Great 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not a fully devolved force, as it was clear from the previous text (it never said it was at the same level of responsibilities as its Basque and Catalan counterparts). Some responsibilities have been passed on but the Policia Autonoma is still an "Unidad Automoma" of the National Police Force. See this. Regards, 00:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clear up

How would you guys include in the article the fact that, according to the Constitution, it could be either the present status of all the territory structured as ACs or it could also be that only the "nacionalidades históricas" were constituted as ACs if they had been the only ones which decided to do so?

Any ideas? Dúnadan, please?

I think this loose and highly interpretative scenario deliberately presented by the Constitution is worth it noting. It also gives some room for a comment on the Spanish Transition and its consensus often relying on conveniently vague enough concepts. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 14:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't fully understand what you are trying to say. Regarding the first, I think the OECD paper states just that, that the constituent assembly expected only the historic nationalities to request self-government, but all did in the end. Is that what you mean? As for the loose interpretation, I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. --the Dúnadan 23:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
That's exactly what I meant. I'd like you or anyone else to find a way to summarize it in one line or two. Sounds like it's worth it, doesn't it?
The vague or blurring dispositions of the Constitution in this regard are the ones allowing quite different interpretations of the territorial structure, either being fully constitutional. I think it is also worth noting this constitutional consensus reached by means of conveniently vague-enough articles. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 00:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the article somewhat explains your first concern (that only "nationalities" were expected to be given autonomy, eventually all requested it and were given it). But we can reword that section, if necessary. As for the "constitutional consensus on convenient vague articles", I somewhat agree. Given that the political spectrum in Spain tends to be focalized on the ends and not on the center, the constitutional congress resorted to neutral grounds and open articles that could appease or satisfy both. However, I wouldn't state either of our opinions in the article. Maybe if we can cite a political scientist or a social scientist describing the situation (and the OECD could be just one), would be better. --the Dúnadan 04:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)