Talk:Automated teller machine

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	Automated teller machine has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Contents 1 Wood green 2 Card retention 3 Spam 4 ATM specifications 5 Deposits 6 Pictures 7 Automatic or automated? 8 Edited: added "Banklink" 9 Talking ATMs merge here 10 ATM-Applications 11 ATM crimes 12 ATM fraud started in the 2000s? 13 Cash machines 14 ABM 15 Requested move 16 paragraph deletion 17 Examples in the Usage Fees heading 18 Regional/US content... (Canada) 19 Attached telephones for customer service calls? 20 Australia 21 Good Article 22 Reasons for not promoting 23 Passed Good Article nomination 24 Foreign terms 25 Dispensed Denominations 26 Too many images 27 ATM fraud? 28 YouTube links 29 History 30 Telecommunications 31 Redirect needed? 32 Transactional secrecy and integrity - Not all data is protected 33 First sentences

[edit] Wood green

Wood Green / Enfield Town - I've seen several sources that say it was in Enfield Town (on Church Street). I've walked past the plaque that marks the spot. Why do you think it was in Wood Green? - Khendon 10:16 Oct 1, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely Enfield Town, not Wood Green. My apologies: I have a feeling that one of the earliest 2nd-generation cash dispensers was in Wood Green: I'll try to dig out a cite. The Anome

[edit] Card retention

Typically, if the number is entered incorrectly several times in a row, most ATMs will retain the card as a security precaution to prevent an unauthorised user from working out the PIN by pure guesswork.

The last 100-odd times I've had recourse to an ATM, I was required to merely swipe my card, rather than insert it into the machine. Is this peculiar to New York, to urban areas, to the US? --Charles A. L. 01:15, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

In my bailiwick "swipers" are used mainly by retailers, but "inserters" are used by banks and ATM's. mydogategodshat 04:40, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Lately most lower-end, stand alone ATMs have been equipped with card swipe or "dip" readers. These keep costs down as they have no moving parts to break. However, there have been incidents of ATM customers jamming their cards into the receipt printer slot when confronted with a swipe reader, jamming the printer and costing the customer a card. Brian Schlosser42

In the US, swipers are most common. In the UK though, merchants had both inserters and swipers but in many cases have the inserer more conviently located. And also note that while for the US, fast swiping is prefered by the readers, in the UK slow swiping is prefered by them. Basicaly, the UK merchants only use the swipers to read those cards without a chip (mostly older ones in the UK and virtually all American ones).

[edit] Spam

the last user seems to have added genesis-solution.com as an advertisement for the website. 202.147.191.138 is from pakistan and the added line was "cool machines from pakistan". deleted. Drunkasian 07:59, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ATM specifications

No worthy merge material found. The other page has been listed for speedy delete. Noisy 14:37, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Deposits

I removed the line about customers not being able to make deposits at machines that did not belong to the bank their account was based at. Several times over the past year I've been able to deposit checks at machines belonging to banks other than the one my account is based at.
If you deposit $1,000.00 cash and mistakenly type in $100.00 you will never get your $900.00 back.

[edit] Pictures

Eek. The first two pictures are pretty bad. If someone has a better ATM photo, please upload and link it. I'll try and take one myself.

Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 04:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've uploaded a picture of a Canadian ATM, from a CIBC branch. It's at [[1]] Let me know if you want any more - or if the quality is unacceptable. Cheers, Apfejes 20:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Automatic or automated?

Shouldn't it be Automated Teller Machine? It "automates" the functions of a teller, right? I've always wondered about this... (some anonymous dude)

You're probably right. I assume some marketer came up with the current name, though, and it stuck, even if it's not quite grammatically correct. --Coolcaesar 03:50, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edited: added "Banklink"

Removed reference to "Drinklink" which, despite the claim is not used in the United Kingdom, and not often in Ireland.

Replaced it with Banklink (from which "Drinklink" is derived). ATMs from different institutions are commonly referred to as "Banklinks" (i.e "I'm going to the banklink")

[edit] Talking ATMs merge here

Talking ATMs seems to duplicate information in this article and not adding much additional information. Should that article be merged into this one? Vegaswikian 05:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I realize that this section deals with Talking ATMs designed to aid the blind that employ headphone jacks, but it implies that there were no "talking ATMs" in the US before 1999. Many annoying talking ATMs existed long prior to that, however, that speak instructions right out load over a speaker by default. (In the South, Publix grocery stores still have ATMs that do this (Publix's "Presto" ATMs.)) Obviously these are different than ATMs with audible interface for the blind, but, they are certainly "talking ATMs." 70.145.102.253 04:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

In Japan most cash machines are talking. A voice tells things such as "please insert the card or bank book", and the buttons on the panels are usually accompanied by Braille script. The displays are usually touch-sensitive, but this function is useless if you can't see what's shown on the display. This article suggests that all talking cash machines feature headphones, but no talking cash machines that I have seen in Japan have headphones. (218.228.195.44 14:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] ATM-Applications

What uses ATM applications? Most popular applications. (not operating systems, ATM-applications!) 1() 23:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ATM crimes

I removed the "ATM crimes" section because it was almost completely off-topic, and any relevant parts were not very informative. I also changed the titles of some sections to remove redundancy (e.g. "ATM fraud" reduced to simply "Fraud", as nobody is reading this article to learn about credit fraud, or postal fraud).

[edit] ATM fraud started in the 2000s?

"In the early 2000s, ATM-specific crimes became common."

This seems misleading. ATM fraud has been happening since the devices first came out. This paper covers some of the ATM fraud from the mid eighties and onward, and it was published in 1993! This is hardly something new to the oughts. -- -- Bobdoe (Talk) 06:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Whomever wrote that must have been a teenager. I clearly remember all the sensationalism in the American media about bank patrons being robbed at gunpoint at ATMs back in the early 1990s (which is why us Americans have so many drive-thru ATMs now). Plus there's the separate crime of hooking up a truck to the ATM and driving away with it. --Coolcaesar 23:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cash machines

ATMs in the U.K. are called Cash machines. This alternative usage should be noted in the article. 129.234.4.10 11:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Nobody in the UK calls them ATMs, although this term is sometimes used where there is only enough space for a short abbreviation (Barclays bank statements used to use it). I'm inserting the more common term cash machine in the introduction. Also, I've never heard anyone use the term "teller". NFH 22:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

That's funny — the term "teller" is in common use in the United States for a bank clerk. Both my regular dictionary (Merriam-Webster's) and my law dictionary (Black's) have a definition for teller. We've clearly stumbled across yet another difference between American and British English. --Coolcaesar 05:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is often called an ATM machine, which, if you work it out, stands for "Automatic Teller Machine Machine". Not sure what to do with this factoid, I just find it interesting that people say it without ever stopping to think what they are really saying. (I used to say it myself until a friend pointed it out to me.) Tannin

It's usually the same people who talk about their Personal Identification Number number.--Jeffro77 00:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ABM

The article noted that "ABM" is often substituted for "ATM" in Canada. I have never heard this expression outside of Toronto, so allowing for regional influence I've updated it to 'eastern Canada.' 65.95.205.172 01:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• ABM is also the standard name in almost half the countries in the Americas... (Esp. in the Caribbean also) since all of the large banks are Canadian owned there. As far as Canada I wont even post all the URL's to the banks but even see Interac's website http://interac.ca/ "ABM" is mentioned there as well. CaribDigita 16:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] paragraph deletion

The following paragraph was deleted by 202.62.228.47 (talk · contribs):

In the United Kingdom, public reaction to proposed increases in fees was so strong that fees were removed altogether for using ATMs at banks, regardless of whether the user is a customer of that bank. However, each time a bank's customer uses a rival bank's ATM, the customer's bank has to pay a fee to the rival bank, which the customer's bank absorbs. As a result, First Direct wrote to its customers in December 2005 asking its customers wherever possible to use ATMs of HSBC, its parent bank, in order to keep First Direct's costs down. There are a growing number of machines in locations such as garages, nightclubs and other venues which do charge. The fee is usually between £1.50 and £2.00, but occasionally they have been known to charge up to £5 and in one central London club £10. There has been some debate in recent years about the location of machines which charge in deprived areas, where the larger banks which would have provided free ATMs have closed branches.

I don't see a good reason for it to be, except that it has a subtle unencyclopedic tone; but not horrible. Feel free to revert it, but I wanted it recorded that it was taken out. - CobaltBlueTony 19:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to see that paragraph sourced, particularly the London club with a 10 pound charge. (In May 2006, to buy £10 it typically cost about $20) Jon 14:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Examples in the Usage Fees heading

Under the Usage Fees heading there are a few examples listing fees associated with ATMs. However none of these examples have been given context to define them as American or any other type of dollar. Perhaps somebody with a bit more knowledge of the subject could clean this section up? I've flagged it with a Worldwide View template notice. 147.10.80.19 20:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Grant

I think it can be safety assumed that $ without a nationality is the American version. But I'll leave the Worldwide View template in place because it doesn't have any mentions of Japan or other Industrialized Asian nation nor any 3rd world countries. Jon 14:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please site sources in this section as well. The $9 fee somewhere in the US and 10 pound fee in London both strength credibility. Jon 14:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Best I could find for the US in print is $6 so far... While there are some concerns about how usage fees affect the ATM installation base, wouldn't this portion be better served as a separate article? PrimroseGuy 27 July 2006

The dance club Mons Venus in Tampa has a $9 dollar fee at its a.t.m.Mmcknight4 21:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Remember that in order to mention it, we need a news report or someone mentioning that so we can reference it.PrimroseGuy 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regional/US content... (Canada)

Hi, I'd just like to point out that the things about the US also apply to Canada (or at least Ottawa). So many references to "US" can be changed to refer to "North America"; however, I recognize that this is still regional. This includes:

• Banks charge fees (usually $1.50-$2) to withdraw money if you are a customer of a different bank
• Non-bank ATMs, which are prevalent in corner stores, grocery stores, take-out places, outdoor festivals, etc. also charge $2 per withdrawal
• Non-bank ATMs (I believe) make up the bulk of ATM expansion (I recall reading an article about this, but haven't the foggiest idea where)

- RealGrouchy 18:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC) [not watching this page]

[edit] Attached telephones for customer service calls?

I'm watching a 1985 episode of Moonlighting, in which a character stops at an ATM at LAX. After he inserts his card, a telephone attached to the ATM rings; a customer service rep asks him for verifying information such as mother's maiden name, birthplace, etc., and then telling him that the card was cancelled. It looks like there are instructions on the ATM explaining that this will occur if there is a problem with the card. Was this feature common at one time? Postdlf 03:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

All Japanese cash machines are accompanied by a telephone for customer service. Possibly for this reason, Japanese cash machines don't operate 24 hours a day, but close during night and are often unavailable on Sundays and public holidays. (218.228.195.44 14:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Australia

In Australia we use the terms ATM and Cash Machine interchangeably. I've even heard Bank Machine. Ozdaren 23:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article

This article seems to be very English-speaking nation centered. It doesn't focus at all on the 3rd world, which now also uses ATMs. After expanding it to be more wordly, it should defintely be a Good Article. --GoOdCoNtEnT 19:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• brought in more worldwide content, removed limited geographic scope content to separate article PrimroseGuy 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for not promoting

The issues I mentioned in the peer review. Most notably the structural and length issues. That said, with just a bit more tinkering this could be a really great article. Cedars 03:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed Good Article nomination

I have no doubt that this is a good article. However, before trying to get it featured, I'd reccomend clearing up some of the bulleted lists.Some P. Erson 14:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign terms

"An ATM is also known, in English, as an Automat (Europe), Automated Banking Machine or Bank Machine (Canada), Bancomat (Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Italy, and Switzerland), Bankomat (Sweden and Poland), Cash Machine (UK), Cashpoint (New Zealand, UK), or Minibank (Norway)." -- In what sense is Bankomat an English-language term, if it's used in Sweden and Poland but not in English-speaking countries? Similarly Bancomat? The same question applies to Minibank (just because it's made up of English words doesn't mean it's an English word, rather than a Norwegian word created from English words!) and probably to Automat. --86.142.110.97 17:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

"Foreign" to whom? The United States you mean right? CaribDigita 04:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

For Bancomat, Bankomat, and Automat, I think the case is more that since English is not the dominant language in those locales, the local English speakers have adopted the dominant language's term for the device to English. The use of that term would be used in an English sentence without other local English speakers being uncertain as to what the original speaker was talking about, nor would it necessarily have to make sense to people outside that region. Perestroika is an example of a Russian-language term that is accepted as a word in English in a similar fashion. See Loanwords.

As for Minibank, I'll accept it because it's pretty obvious what they're getting at, I've heard the term before in this context, and if you do a tracert on 129.177.236.184 who added it [2], the IP resolve for me to uib-nh-gw.uib.no.  :-) PrimroseGuy 20:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispensed Denominations

Does anyone have concrete knowledge of the cash denominations that are commonly dispense in different countries? In Oz, I've yet to come across an ATM that offerred anything other than $20s and $50s. Reason I've been told is due to the logistics of cash supply. - Htra0497 22:40, 4 October 2006 (AET)

Depends on customer and historical preference, fraud rates of the various denominations, how the local currency is denominated, currency inflation rates, how much risk the ATM provider wants to take of leaving money in the vault, and insurance premiums charged for the money in the vault. I'm sure there's more factors, but that's a good starting point. PrimroseGuy 13:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

£10 and £20 in the UK, except on Friday nights, when it's only £20 cos the machines have run out of tenners... ;)

Check that ... I just stumbled across an Oz ATM that dispensed only $50s and $100s. There was a big sign that flashed up onto the screen as a warning. It was at a CBA branch in Sydney which had half a dozen or so ATMs outside. Very excited, guess I was lucky. Htra0497 16:48, 18 October 2006 (AET)

Back in the 1980's ATM's im Australia used to be $10 and $20. Banks make a decision based on average withdrawals and daily withdrawal limits.Garrie 23:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There still are (were? - at least in the late 90s) some ATMs in Australia (in Sydney) that also dispensed $10s (in addition to $20s and $50s). I haven't seen any that provide $100s in Australia, though I'm sure they exist. Most ATMs in Europe provide €20s and €50s (and maybe €10s), but some give €100s (the only one I saw was in a casino in Vienna). Pretty sure £50s are available from ATMs in UK.--Jeffro77 01:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many images

This article contains 23 images of ATMs. Way too many, if you ask me. What do you think? --CrazyLegsKC 00:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though I note that a large percentage do illustrate some unusal aspect, such as system crashes, special scanners, internal workings, etc. Perhas we can just trim some of the more conventional depictions. -Will Beback 01:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

One of the things that the pictures do is to help illustrate that there are many different types of ATMs. What is "conventional" for one person around the world may be quite different for another. [[3]] would probably be a reasonable reference here, especially if the intent is made for FA status (which it currently has a reasonable shot at, I think). PrimroseGuy 17:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If the pictures overwhelm the text some of them can be moved into a wikipedia:image gallery. -Will Beback 12:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It is also worth noting there is not one picture of a receipt, couldn't someone censor the details of there account on a receipt then upload the pic?

[edit] ATM fraud?

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1160322342/ATM_Scam

Found this short about an ATM scam involving entering a code on the keypad which would fool the machine into handing out $20 bills as if they were $5 ones. I assume these things have data ports for local maintenance / update purposes located somewhere inside the machine so I find it unlikely that you'd be able to change the denotation of one of the stacks of bills to something else from a publically accessible interface. Any thoughts on this? -- MiG 20:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this type of attack is real. Read the "Operational Fraud" section and links. PrimroseGuy 20:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

The history section is dubious at best because it identifies the voucher based cash dispensing machine in London as the first ATM. The cash dispensers in London required pre-paid vouchers or plastic & required the Bank customers using these machines to purchase more cards since the machines did not return the card after the transaction. The first ATM machine as we know them today was installed in 1969 at the Chemical Bank in New York and it was not until 1971 that a full service ATM (including deposits) was installed. The concept for the ATM machine (not the simple cash dispenser)was developed by James Goodfellow of Scotland in 1966. The paragraph should be rewritten so as to be fully accurate and giving credit to all those involved in developing the ATM. See http://www.atmmachine.com/atm-inventor.html and http://www.thocp.net/hardware/atm.htm#124.27.205.125 22:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Be bold! Make the changes you suggest. -Will Beback · † · 23:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

User:74.115.79.10 has edited the History section to attribute the idea of a PIN stored on the card to John Rose; until now it referred to James Goodfellow. I can see from the references that there is indeed some controversy on the matter (though the patent lists Goodfellow among the inventors). But is there any source for the inventor being Rose, or is this simple vandalism? Aheppenh 02:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a recent interview [4] where Sheperd-Barron implies that the PIN was his invention -- or at least, selection of only 4 digits because that's all his wife could remember.

[edit] Telecommunications

An automated teller machine (ATM) is a computerized telecommunications device ...

I find that missleading. There were (and maybe still are) ATMs which are standalone devices with no communications link to a host. The word telecommunications suggests that an ATM is only an ATM if it is connected to a host or network.

I'd like to know more about these off-line cash machines

[edit] Redirect needed?

I have noticed that when you type in atm it goes to a disambiguation page. Surely 95% of people who type in ATM are looking for this page. I think ATM should automatically redirect to this page, and if they are one of the minority looking for other ATM acronym, theyn are then given the option to go to the disambiguation page. Tarcus 06:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Judging from your contributions to WP, it looks like you're not into technology much. Most people who fly, use a computer network, or do graphic design (or have a casual interest in any of the three) may be more interested in the other meanings of ATM. I'm referring, of course, to air traffic management, Asynchronous Transfer Mode, or Adobe Type Manager. Indeed, over a decade ago, when I was too young to be trusted with an ATM card, I equated ATM more often with the network protocol or the font manager program since I encountered the letters ATM in those contexts much more often.

You also need to keep in mind that the millions of small businesspeople who handle cash receivables for a living do not visit ATMs very much. Their biggest problem is depositing all the cash they receive, not getting cash out of an ATM. And that kind of transaction usually has to be handled by a bank teller who double-checks the deposit slip and ensures the bills and coins are sorted and bundled properly (I also have personal experience with this from a long time ago). --Coolcaesar 22:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ditto, Asynchronous Transfer Mode is very common

Fair call. I still stand by my opinion, but I'd encourage anyone with an opinion to put in there 2c, regardless of there view. Tarcus 08:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transactional secrecy and integrity - Not all data is protected

In "Transactional secrecy and integrity" it states that sensitive data is protected with DES. My understanding is that only the MAC and the PIN are encrypted (with 3DES not just single DES) and other sensitive data is not protected. For example this is possible: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article637003.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.152.115.183 (talk) 04:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First sentences

Can we remove 'An' on starting article? As per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#First_sentences, article should start without 'A', 'An' 'The' etc. We may start this article with 'Automated teller machine (ATM)', not 'An automated teller machine (ATM) '

'Bauani' • ^Talk2me 17:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)