Talk:Austro-Bavarian

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Tried to NPOV this a little, but I still think the content could be merged with Austrian_language under some other title. Any opinions? Kosebamse 17:58 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)

I think that the original writer is correct that "Austro-Bavarian" is the more common name of the language. Also, Austrian language in fact discusses several different languages. I'm inclined to change the latter into a discussion of the languages (or Germanic languages) of Austria. -- Toby 19:11 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Pronouncing schr-

See Talk:German_phonology#Pronouncing_schr-.

[edit] Y is Hellenic?

This statement needs more explanation:

Because of King Ludwig I's passion for everything Hellenic, the German name for Bavaria today is spelled "Bayern", while the language spoken there has retained its original spelling "Bairisch" — note the I versus the "Hellenic" Y.

The letter "I" has just as much of a Greek pedigree as "Y": "I" comes from iota, y from upsilon. I'm guessing that the reason "Y" is more Greek is because the name of the letter "Y" in German is "Ypsilon" (or maybe from the French "I grec", literally "greek I"). But this should be explained. --Saforrest 00:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Retroflex non-lateral allophone of /l/

Today I heard a Bavarian woman speak grammatically Standard German with a very strong Bavarian accent. One thing I noticed is that she had an allophone of /l/ after /a/ that sound practically like [ɻ]. It sounded quite retroflex and hardly lateral at all. Verwalten was [fɛɐˈvaɻtn], nochmal was [nɔxmaɻ], and alle was [aɻə]. /l/ in other positions was a perfectly normal /l/. Has anyone else heard of this? Is it normal for Bavarian, or for a specific subdialect of Bavarian? Or did she just have a speech impediment that is highly restricted in its environment? —Angr 15:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

No, this doesn't sound anywhere near standard Bavarian. /al/ is pronounced [ɔɪ] before a consonant; before a vowel it remains unchanged. — Sebastian 07:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay. Though just to make clear: she wasn't speaking Bavarian dialect, she was speaking Standard German with a Bavarian accent. —Angr 08:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
In that case, she might have been trying to overcompensate in some weird way? — Sebastian 08:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I know that from some people South West of Munich (Fürstenfeldbruck). They're certainly Bavarian, though I don't know if they originate from there. --84.152.8.212 16:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Bavarian speakers that attempt talking in "standard" German often sound like that. I'm Bavarian but my family speaks standard German, so I speak Bavarian and German perfectly without "cross-referencing". Most Eastern and Southern Dialects substitute the "l" in the examples you've given. So "Welt" becomes "Wà'id", "Geld" becomes "Gà'id" and "Gold" becomes "Gó'id". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.139.116.199 (talk) 06:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wenn vs. wann

The article claims that Standard German "wenn" is "wenn" in Bavarian but "wann" in Austrian dialects. Can anybody confirm this? I have the impression, though I cannot verify it, that Bavarians say "wann" as well.Unoffensive text or character 16:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this. This is indeed wrong. I just doublechecked in Ludwig Merkle, Baierische Grammatik, Hugendubel 1990, and there is no mention of "wenn". — Sebastian 07:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not wrong. I'm from Western-Austria, next to Bavaria, and the people here use the word "wann" for "wenn" sometimes. In Eastern-Austria and also in the Carinthia they also use it, but more often than here. They really use it more often than the word "wenn". (Sorry for my poor english.) 80.121.75.106 18:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That seems to be a misunderstanding. The distinction between "wenn" and "wann" is not between Bavarian and Austrian. Bavarian has "wann", as well. There is a distinction, of course, between people who are more influenced by Standard German and more traditional speakers. Maybe that's what you're observing; maybe the people where you live are just more "spoiled".  ;-) — Sebastian 02:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
It depends greatly on context and case. In Eastern Bavarian we certainly use "wann" as "wenn" in certain cases: "Wannst'as schaffst." (When you get around to it). It's highly variable though between dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.139.116.199 (talk) 06:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speakers from Austria or Bavaria

The article claims that it is difficult for a foreigner, including non-bavarian Germans, to distinguish between an Austrian and a Bavarian by language. From my personal experience I must say that I find it very easy, as Austrians, even when speaking a near-standard variety of German, have a very characteristic intonation. I hardly ever fail to notice it. Unoffensive text or character 08:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As a Bavarian I second that. It may be difficult with people from border regions. I think it's a North German opinion. --84.152.8.212 16:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
How can you second that not being a non-Bavarian? For me, a non-Bavarian German, it's not that difficult to distinguish them when they are speaking Standard German but quite difficult when they actually speak dialect. --85.181.232.143 (talk) 10:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I am both a non-Bavarian and a non-Austrian and I have no difficulty at all telling the dialects apart. But this, of course, is not the question. The question should rather be (unfortunately I did not recognize that when I wrote my first comment over a year ago): Is there anything that can source the claim? If so, we would need to name the source. If not, I think I will simply remove the sentence. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of speakers

The quoted ethnologue report gives about 200 000 speakers of Bavarian in Germany. That can't be true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.46.72 (talk) 11:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)