Talk:Austrian School

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[edit] Spelling of Böhm-Bawerk

Re: Revision 8: I think you're wrong about the spelling of his name. A google search showed about 400 instances of Boehm-Bawerk but about 1200 Bohm-Bawerk. The actual spelling, I believe is Böhm, thats an 'O' with two little dots over it. Unfortunately Wiki won't let you use special characters in links. I think Boehm is an anglization of the name, trying to get across the proper pronunciation without using special characters.
But a quick check shows that the Mises Institute spells it minus the 'e': |http://www.mises.org/bawerk.asp] It also appears Mises and Rothbard spelled it without the 'e' too. Is 'oe' and excepted translation of 'ö'? --MemoryHole.com 7 Sep 2001

You are right that Böhm is correct, but unfortunately not possible as a page name. So I applied the normal German substitution used when no umlaut is available (old typewriters/printers) ö -> oe. That is the nearest we can come here. The "correct" anglisation is probably just leaving the diaresis off (Bohm). Actually, it occured to me that we can use ö still in the text. See the change I'll commit next.

Finally, "von Böhm-Bawerk" seems to outmajor my "Böhm von Bawerk" so I'm changing that back. I guess both spellings were interchangable back when, but I'm no historian. --Robbe 25 Feb 2002

[edit] Timing of Principles and Das Kapital

"Untenable"? Just because Marx was writing Das Kapital at the same time that Menger was working on Principles, does NOT mean that Marx's economic theories were not already in circulation. He and Engels had already published numerous articles. --xzy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.91.126.231 (talk • contribs) 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Deduction vs. induction

"...the paradigmatic assumption that economics should rest on induction from principles rather than deduction from observation has been largely rejected." It should be the other way around; you deduce from principles or induce from observation. I changed it. --Nebbons —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.64.101.17 (talk • contribs) 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Link suggestions

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[edit] Incorrect link

The Hebrew link is wrong. Can anyone fix it?--217.93.127.177 01:45, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] vagueness in contribution section

I found the last item in the "contributions" section to be extremely vague, to the point that it could be misleading or wrong. However, I don't know much about this so I'm not going to change it myself. Here's the quote:

The economic calculation debate between Austrian and Marxist economists, with the Austrians claiming that Marxism is flawed because prices could not be set to recognise opportunity costs of factors of production, and so socialism could not calculate best uses in the same way capitalism does.

My problem is that it seems to be using socialism as equivalent to centrally planned economy while equating capitalism to free market economy. Most socialists would object to these definitions, arguing that some models of socialism involve market exchanges, while capitalism generally involves extensive state intervention in the economy. So the idea of "central planning" vs. "free market" could be more precise, but it may be better to just describe the relationship between the decision maker and ther person whose interests are supposedly being served (an authority making decisions for others, vs everyone making decisions for themselves). AdamRetchless 16:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, but the first sentence specifically identifies Marxist economists, and most Austrians feel that this debate is actually between themselves and everyone else (except maybe some members of the Chicago school). Austrians often accuse other economists of wanting to plan the economy, and that other economists (unlike themselves) are self-confident enough to think that they can solve the "calculation" problem more efficiently than the market.
This contribution should probably be broadened rather than made narrower. Socialists believe in some central planning role for the state, so do many others, and most of these would fall foul of the "calculation problem" in the Austrian view, wouldn't they?
Wragge 16:51, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here in terms of Marx's positive analysis of market capiatlism and is nomative espousal of socialism. the sentance in question, in my reading, is in refference to the former

[edit] negative rather than positive definition

I believe the article should begin with the postive definition (role of the individual, Human action, expanding from there) rather than immediately defining Austrianism in opposition to other schools of thought.

> I have to concur. The introductory paragraph uses too many Austrian-isms and isn't especially coherent to a trained neo-classical let alone a member of the general public. It should be rewritten. I'll fix it when I get time. The morgawr 01:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

>> The introduction is also misleading. The opening statment, "The Austrian School is a school of economic thought that rejects economists' primary use of methods more common in natural science for the study of human action," is not a distinguishing aspect of the Austrian School. ALL major schools of economic though avoid the methods of natural science. The question is which method do you use. Most neo-classical economists hold to positivism/platonic idealism; most austrians hold to rationalism/Aristotlian realism; but that isn't hard and fast there are Austrians (Hayek) who follow positivism and there are neo-classicals who follow rationalism. The introductory paragraph should focus on distinguishing aspects (The actual way to distinguish the Austrian School is the strict adherence to methodological individualism). I'm working through how to clean the article up and render it much clearer to someone who is trying to learn about the Austrian School as opposed to refresh their memory. The morgawr 14:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree - this section is poor. For example: "While the praxeological method differs from the current method advocated by the majority of contemporary economists, the Austrian method is essentially identical to the traditional approach to economics used by the British classical economists, the early continental economists, and the Late Scholastics." is a very radical interpretation that should be referenced (to serious philosophers of economics) and then contrasted to alternative views. Most wouldn't consider Adam Smith to be a strict rationalist, and many 19th Century economists were more influenced methodologically by Kant than by Descartes.--Nmcmurdo 00:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested in this. What do you propose? Oh -- for what it's worth, von Mises was definitely influenced more by Kant than by Descartes. DavidCBryant 01:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miss people

Fritz Machlup and Walter Eucken and Schumpeter.

these are 3 persons we cannot miss in this article.

  • Thanks. Please be bold and add information about them. Thanks, -Willmcw 18:20, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

While Shumpeter was Austrian by nationality, he is not (usually?) considered to having been a supporter of the views of the Austrian school. I will remove his name from the list for now, until this can be resolved.

[edit] Cite needed

Can anyone offer a citation for the quote from the article below?

"While the Austrian school itself is radically conservative, many of their specific problems with the neo-classical formulation have analogs in other parts of economics. Game theory is used to challenge probability, volatility argued for as a better measure of preference and risk assessment than price, and chaos theory argues for highly discrete rather than very smooth functions of utility and value."

Dick Clark 14:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

As no one has replied to this I have deleted this paragraph. Probability is foundational for game theory, and I have no idea what arguments the other claims are referring to. Bengalski 22:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I can recall claims by experts in those fields to the effect of each of those points. Getting citations for each of them would be an astronomical task though. The morgawr 01:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subjective Theory of Value

I created a stub for the Subjective Theory of Value. Have at it! Hogeye 18:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian?

It is said in the article, under the "Analytical Framework" part that

"It is an Austrian assertion that everyone is better off in a mutually voluntary exchange, or they would not have carried it out."

I think that this sentence might be misleading, in the sense that it is not an "Austrian assertion". This idea has been developed earlier by Adam Smith and other Classical Economists.


Indeed, Austrian School inherits and advances the key classical idea of exchange as the subject of economics. Mises wished to popularize the term 'catallactics ==study of exchange' coined by Whately. Like classical economics Austrian economics is a science of exchange. The quoted assertion is definitely Austrian (Check Chapter 4 of Menger's Principles). If the quoted assertion does not sound original, one may be reminded of the fundamental difference between utility-based (subjective) explanation and cost-based (objective) explanation of gains from trade. The Ricardian idea that trade occurs because it gives benefits to everybody in terms of comparative cost is not exactly the same thing as Menger's assertion that trade occurs because all parties to it derive benefits in terms of utility. Adam Smith and other classical economists did not develop the subjectivist interpretation. Nor did they have the more complex idea that the demand for factors is derived from the demand for products, and hence the value of factors (to impute cost) gets its meaning from the prior assignment of value of products based on utility. In short, one can derive cost by imputation of value to factors from utility of products, but not vice-versa. This is one way to read the idea of round-about production. Gani 02:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] framework / methodology

actually praxeology only got attention within the Austian School with the 1940 publication of Nationalökonomie by von Mises. There should be a split in the lemma discussing the pre Second World War framework and the post-war framework. Intangible 16:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Analytical Framework?

Austrian economists do not reject observation at all. They reject a description of observations offered without causal explanation. Menger's long battle of methodenstreit is centered on the key idea that a historical narrative without the aid of theoretical explanation does not provide valid knowledge. Gani 01:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it proper to use the word make, as in force, in this context? "This means, in the Austrian context, the correct way to prevent imbalances in the economy is to make people want to buy the correct goods, rather than controlling when people buy goods." Either I've misunderstood or there is a better term.

[edit] Issue with "Vienna school" redirect to this page

Hi; just dropped by accidentally as I'd expected there to be a "Vienna school" article on music and musicians, i.e. Schoenberg, Webern, Berg et al. I'll check around the musicology pages to see what else they might be called, but it seems to me a disambig for "Vienna school" will (eventually) be in the offing.Skookum1 20:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, there's also a "Vienna School" of physicians. I've created a disambiguation page. Please look it over, there may be more. Cheers, -Will Beback 05:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

"As a result Austrians hold that the only valid economic theory is one that is logically derived from basic principles of human action." Actually, this is just one branch of Austrian School economics that holds the a priorism of human action. Not all Austrian School economist hold this view... Intangible 23:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Nor is everyone who holds this opinion from the "Austrian school". Might I suggest changing the singe word Austrians to The Austrian School of thought? Carbonate 06:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian vs. Misesian

This account of the "Austrian School" isn't an account of Austrian economics, its an account of a particular interpretation of Misesian economics.

In other words, this simply isn't honest as an account of Austrian economics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.113.238 (talk • contribs) 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope our anonymous commenter will come back some time and amplify on this remark a little bit.
I've read quite a bit of Austrian stuff by various authors (Menger, Böhm-Bawerk, Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Kirzner, Ebeling, Hoppe, Raico, de Soto, Hazlitt ... maybe a few others) and I can't think of one who had a material disagreement with the positions L. von Mises stakes out in "Human Action". So I think it's categorically wrong to pretend that there's a real distinction between "Misesian" and "Austrian" economics. They are, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same thing. DavidCBryant 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Hi!

I just made some stylistic revisions to the "History" section of this article. Most of these just involved proper English idiom, or breaking a horribly run-on sentence into two shorter sentences that convey the same meaning. I also straightened out a few flaws with the references to Karel Engliś an anonymous contributor recently added. Does anyone here have a problem with what I did?

I should also mention that I made one substantive change -- I changed "... without monetary prices or private property, meaningful economic calculation was impossible" to "... without monetary prices and private property, meaningful economic calculation is impossible", which, in my opinion, more accurately reflects the Austrians' view of the matter.

As long as I'm talking about this, I'd like to point out a major flaw in the next section, "Analytical framework". The last paragraph of that section reads as follows.

This focus on opportunity cost alone means that their interpretation of the time value of a good has a strict relationship: since goods will be as restricted by scarcity at a later point in time as they are now, the strict relationship between investment and time must also hold. A factory making goods next year is worth as much less as the goods it is making next year are worth. This means that the business cycle is driven by miscoordination between sectors of the same economy, caused by money not carrying incentive information correct about present choices, rather than within a single economy where money causes people to make bad decisions about how to spend their time. This means, in the Austrian context, the correct way to prevent imbalances in the economy is to make people want to buy the correct goods, rather than controlling when people buy goods.

This paragraph is not only execrable prose – it is also a gross misrepresentation of the Austrian theory of the business cycle. The Austrians don't propose to "make" anybody buy the correct goods. In Austrian theory, the consumer always makes his own decisions.

Does anybody want to explain this paragraph, and why it's in here, before I rip its guts out? DavidCBryant 01:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page cleanup

I added headers to some random comments that had caused the Table of Contents to slide down the Talk page, making it less convenient. Also removed wiki links in two headers. It is discouraged since it can cause trouble in tables of contents and elsewhere. The comments already contained the needed links. -- RayBirks 05:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keynes Theory and Its Results

What results of Keynesian Theory is the Austrian School against? When Keynesian Theory is implemented, the result has not accorded with theory. - MSTCrow 02:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The differences between Keynes' theories and Austrian Economics are so profound that one could write whole books about them. Some people have. Here's a quick overview.
In the first place, it's not so much that the Austrians are opposed to Keynes' theories; it's just that Austrian theory makes much different predictions than Keynes made. For instance, Austrian theory indicates that the Keynesian medicine of fiscal/monetary "stimulus" will do nothing to alleviate the ups and downs of the business cycle in the long run, but that inflation of the money supply and depreciation of the currency will inevitably result from such policies, eventually.
The basic question underlying different approaches to economic theory is "Who decides?" Who decides what is good for you? Who decides how much of each commodity should be produced? Who decides what somebody means when he says "outcome A is better than outcome B"? Ultimately, what is the meaning of the word economics? Is it a branch of the natural sciences that helps man understand the limits of his ability to act within the world? Or is it a form of technology that one class of people (the authorities, or rulers) can use to direct and control the activities of everyone else?
Broadly speaking, the Austrians come down on the side of individual liberty. Who decides? You decide. You decide what is best for you, and I decide what is best for me. The economic questions – how much of each commodity is produced, the level of prices, the balance between saving and investment – are all answered by individuals, each acting in his own best interest as he perceives it. So the market price of a particular good or service is determined by individual acts of exchange, which produce an "average" or "prevailing" price over short periods of time. There is no such thing as "economic equilibrium" – there is an "evenly rotating economy", instead, in which people are constantly looking for (ethical, honest) ways to improve their own situations. And so forth.
The Keynesian view is markedly different. It proceeds from the assumption that some patterns of economic activity are objectively better than other patterns, and that the high priests of economics understand that objective truth better than you do. In other words, Keynesian thought tends in the direction of central planning, and denigrates the value of individual liberty. Who decides? The authorities decide. They decide how much money to put into circulation, and what quantities of certain commodities should be produced / consumed. They decide what is best for everybody, and then they direct you to do your part. Ultimately, in Keynes' view, there are no individual wants and desires that each person strives to satisfy – there is only the economy, and you are just a disposable cog in the machine.
That's an oversimplification. But it's generally correct. And it's all I have time for right now.  ;^> DavidCBryant 12:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, thanks, but that wasn't what I was asking, though. I asked what results the Austrian School was against, not which theories.  :-P - MSTCrow 16:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
We must not think alike. As I explained above, the Austrians reject all the "results" of Keynes' theory, because Keynes' theory is based on premises that are demonstrably false. If you make the wrong assumptions about reality you get invalid conclusions every time. DavidCBryant 01:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the article doesn't make clear the difference between results, and "results." {This unsigned comment was added by MSTCrow at 20:51, 1 January, 2007.]
Can you be more specific? I see quite a few flaws in the article ... as I've noted above, I think the major one is in the section entitled "Analytical framework". What in particular do you think needs to be fixed up? Oh -- since you seem to be keen on making a distinction between "theory" and "results", are we both talking about the same book? When I hear "Keynesian" I automatically think of "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money", by John Maynard Keynes (1936). That is in fact the Keynesian Theory you're talking about, right? I know that JMK wrote some other stuff, as well. For instance, he was pretty keen on Communism and the Bolsheviks until he actually visited Russia (ca 1925) – he was seriously disappointed by what he saw, and spoke out against the excesses of Lenin's government when he returned to England. That's one "result" Keynes obtained with which the Austrian economists would all agree. But I suppose you were really referring to his most famous book when you asked about Keynesian Theory in the first place. Or am I mistaken? DavidCBryant 23:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I was referring to "General Theory." My point is, the actual results of Keynesian theory aren't in line with Keynesian theory, and the article doesn't make that distinction.

[edit] Luis de Molina

Bucketsofg removed the link between this guy's name and the Wikipedia article Luis Molina. I'm going to take his name out of the list altogether, but I figure I ought to drop a message in here first, just in case one of the Defenders of Catholicism is watching this page.

I read Bucketofg's edit note. Unlike him, I'm sure the link was to the right person. I do understand how the theological dispute in which Molina became embroiled can be interpreted as bearing upon the Austrian theory of subjective value. But theology is not a science. Economics is a science.

In my opinion, even calling people like Thomas Mun, Sir Josiah Child, and Boisguillebert economists is something of a stretch, because the science of economics did not exist before Quesnay, Turgot, and the Physiocrats – maybe it didn't exist until Adam Smith.

The bottom line is that it is not NPOV to label Molina an economist, because the science of economics didn't even exist in his time. In fact, since Carl Menger's book came out in 1871, it's probably incorrect to label anyone born before say 1800 an Austrian economist. DavidCBryant 22:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Milton Friedman

The late economist and Nobel laurate Milton Friedman's theory is very similar to Austrian economics, why his name is not mentioned in the article? Wooyi 22:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Friedman was clearly of the Chicago School, not the Austrian School. He held some free-market ideas, but he differed greatly with the Austrians on issues such as monetary policy. DickClarkMises 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Friedman was undoubtedly a monetarist. One of the most interesting things about his monetary views is that he never was able to give a definite answer to the question "how much inflation is enough inflation?" (where inflation is understood in the Austrian sense, as inflation of the money supply). Sometimes it was 6%, or so, and other times it was 3%, or so. (The Austrians generally support a free market in money (gold), with little governmental intervention; fiat currencies are anathema.) Interestingly, Hayek and Friedman were friends, and Friedman was one of the original members of the Mont Pelerin Society. I think Friedman was a little more pragmatic and less idealistic than Hayek was. Hayek never gained an appointment in the Econ department at the University of Chicago, and Friedman did. DavidCBryant 00:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does this mean?

This means, in the Austrian context, the correct way to prevent imbalances in the economy is to make people want to buy the correct goods, rather than controlling when people buy goods.

I found this quote under Analytical framework. I have only read Human Action and a couple other books, but I've never seen any recommendations to control what people want to buy (as if that could be done) or to controlling when they buy it. What I have seen is a statement that credit expansion will create the illusion that consumers want to buy more stuff, and will result in malinvestment, but the line above strikes me as nonsense. I refrained from "being bold", as I am hardly an expert on Austrian Economics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.170.168 (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree. The claim is dubious. I've removed it. DickClarkMises 20:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I question the entire paragraph. The assertion that "goods will be as restricted by scarcity at a later point in time as they are now" isn't even true, so far as I can see. New sources of the good may be discovered, new manufacturing processes may be invented, etc. This whole paragraph was probably written by a neo-classicist or a monetarist who really doesn't understand the Austrian theory of the business cycle and the role of knowledge in the economy. I've been meaning to rewrite the whole paragraph for a while, but can't seem to find exactly the right words. DavidCBryant 23:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maintaining line of thought since the 15th century

But how about a citation for or qualification of this 'part of a long line of thought' claim? As is this just sounds like aristocratic boasting.

[edit] Criticism?

I am no economist, but it seems to me that there is likely more than one prominent economist that is in favor of laissez-faire capitalism. Right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ArmyOfFluoride (talk • contribs) 07:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

Why is the 'Criticism' section so small and when I clicked the link for 'other criticisms' it took me to an extremely pro-libertarian website? Seems biased to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgan gibson87 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It may seem biased but upon closer examination this is not in fact bias but a product of several factors...
1) The Austrian school is heterodox and so likely to be more familiar to libertarians then other schools of thought as it is popular among libertarians as opposed to the mainstream. So it is no surprise that most of the criticism :comes from libertarians.In classes focusing on the History of Economic Thought, whilst the Austrian School might be included in the syllabus, attention likely to be minimal or none at all (simply because focus is given to the :Classical, Keynsian, Monetarist, Neo-Classical, and to a lesser extent Marxist schools of thought).
2) The lack of criticism to could be due to the shared theories between Austrian and Neo-Classical e.g theory of marginal utility. In fact a criticism has been that Austrian Economics does not actually differ enough from :Neo-:Classical economics (and so has not actually be a significant contribution into the field of economics), however this has been disputed. Perhaps they share similar criticisms with Neo-Classical (if indeed the claimed :similarities are true)?
3) Also it would be most difficult in trying to nitpick at their logic (it is an integral part of their methodology after all!), however, even if the logic is valid, the premises may still be flawed, hence the criticism is towards the :individualist methodology.

Examination of the "Critical" links should be summarized into the "Criticism" section. I have added a link critiquing Libertarianism with a section specifically critiquing Austrian Economics. Thus we have a critical link written :from a non-libertarian perspective.
LoweLeif (talk) 05:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David D. Friedman

Why is he listed as a critic of the Austrian school? According to his bio he is an anarcho-capitalist. What is his objection to Austrian Economics? Is he a Monetarist like his father? --Jayson Virissimo 05:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Chicago school, I believe. See his response to the 'Are You An Austrian' Mises quiz here:[1]–Skomorokh 09:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Utility theory

"The first primary area of contention between neoclassical theory and the Austrian school is over the possibility of consumer indifference — neoclassical theory says it is possible, whereas Mises rejected it as being “impossible to observe in practice”. The second major dispute arose when Mises and his students argued that utility functions are ordinal, and not cardinal; that is, the Austrians contend that one can only rank preferences and cannot measure their intensity, in direct opposition to the neoclassical view"

This is misrepresentation of the neoclassical view. Neoclassical economics does not belive in cardinal utility. While jeveons and marshal may have done post-pareto (1906) economics holds that there is no subjective measure of utility only an ordering of preferences. This is the heart of neoclasical economics and as such this paragraph is incorrect.


[edit] Cowen

Just wondering why Cowen is listed as a critic. I don't want to just delete him if he has criticized the school, but I am not aware of any such declarations. Redoy 16:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heterodox status, cardinal utilities

Heterodox economics specifically lists Austrian economics. While it is indeed the case that certain aspects of Austrian economics have been integrated into the mainstream, many of the fundamental tenets such as the rejection of mathematics and empirical work as well as the unique treatment of utility are very firmly placed outside of the mainstream. Additionally, as the above commenter notes, cardinal utility functions are no longer a part of modern neoclassical economics. Utility functions are formally defined only up to monotonic scalings, which means they only indicate ordinal rankings; the use of specific numerical values is simply a notational shortcut to make the mathematics easier. taion 01:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Mainstream economics and Heterodox economics articles are in partial disagreement, then. From the Mainstream economics article:
Some fields may be described as being partly within mainstream economics, partly within heterodox economics. Some of them are Austrian economics, institutional economics, neuroeconomics and non-linear complexity theory. They may use neoclassical economics as a point of departure.
If these articles are in disagreement, it would be prudent to figure out how to resolve that contradiction before classing schools of economics under the two headings. Although not suitable as a source in this article, one representation of the conflict/confusion may be seen in this blog entry by Peter Boettke: [2] DickClarkMises 02:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Eh, I think Boettke's assessment of the difference between “mainstream” and “mainline” is a fairly POV statement, and saying that an Austrian economist thinks his economic paradigm is in some sense more advanced than standard neoclassical economics isn't really saying much. Note that Lawrence White, who Boettke links to (here), explicitly notes that Austrian economics falls outside of the mainstream. I'll note also that Austrian papers aren't generally published in major mainstream economics journals. If anything, the language of the Mainstream economics page is just extremely imprecise. While certain ideas from Austrian economics have made their way to mainstream economics and theorems have been re-derived in that context, the methodology of Austrian economics as well as probably the majority of the conclusions reached (inasmuch as they are different from the ones reached by mainstream economics) are likely rejected. It's definitely beyond the scope of anybody to argue what future trends in economics be, and personally I think it's quite arrogant of him to insist that his school of economic thought is in some way the next, rational development of economic theory, but certainly that doesn't pertain to the discussion of whether or not Austrian economics should be classified as heterodox. Caplan's critiques of Austrian economics linked in the article are generally shared by a large majority of economists, and neuroeconomics seems to be gaining much more legitimacy as an economic microfoundation than praxeology. That aside, I believe that the best approach is to revise the mainstream economics page to clarify, if this is even worthwhile or possible, which heterodox economics disciplines are actually “partially mainstream” and which are better classified as having made contributions to the mainstream. This may not be that practical, though, in which case it might be better just to make the more conservative statement that those schools of thought have all made contributions to the economic mainstream. taion 16:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Operation Spooner: The main thing is that, in general, mainstream economists consider Austrians to be well outside of the mainstream, and this reflects in journal publication records and soforth. At least as described here, Austrian economics, with its completely different analytical framework and the rejection of mathematics and empiricism, in many ways stands directly counter to mainstream neo-classical economics. If you refer to DickClarkMises's link to Boettke's blog post, you'll note that Boettke himself says that Austrian economics was “rarely mainstream in the history of the school”. For better or for worse, Austrian economics is virtually unrepresented in top-tier econ journals like the AER, QJE, or JPE, and it contributes at most very peripherally to modern mainstream debate. Whatever disagreement exists simply isn't substantial – it's quite different for Austrian economists to consider themselves mainstream than for generally acknowledged mainstream economics to hold the same opinion. taion 04:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not my personal opinion. I don't have one one way of the other. It's simply referenced information that I put there so it should stay. Operation Spooner 05:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
'k. You might want to rewrite that passage a bit so it flows a bit better, though. It sounds like a segment that was transplanted from another paragraph, probably because it is one =p The "some see Austrian economics as" sounds fairly inelegant as well anyway, and could probably stand to be rewritten. Maybe something like "Branches of the Austrian school are closer to the mainstream and accept certain neoclassical methods and tenets, while [...]" if it's consistent with the source. taion 04:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Here it is straigh from the source if you want to see it: [3] Operation Spooner 04:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. I'll do a little rewriting just for flow when I get a chance to. taion 06:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heterodoxy

What Boettke meant to say was that certain incarnations of the Austrian school did in fact contribute to the mainstream; however, this is not currently the case. The HET notes "Mises's American offspring remained outside the economics mainstream and were coralled into a handful of universities, such as N.Y.U. and George Mason, where many of them are still concentrated today." Sources such as the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics implicitly note this separation by contrasting Austrian and mainstream approaches. Were Austrian economics currently accepted as mainstream, the Ludwig von Mises Institute would not have had to held an "Austrian Economics v. The Mainstream" seminar. The simple fact is that, regardless of how you view Austrian ideas, Austrian economics are themselves rejected from the mainstream. Austrian economists are excluded from the top journals and are marginalized at best at mainstream conferences and seminars. Regardless of how "some people" view Austrian economics, the economic mainstream itself rejects the Austrians. taion 17:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

If you want another Boettke quote, look here. Austrian economics in the earlier half of the century (like 1920s and 1930s) did contribute to the neoclassical mainstream. Austrian economics as it stands presently is distinctly separate from mainstream neoclassical economics. See also here, noting "Breaking into mainstream professional journals is a major problem for all heterodox views in economics, and the Austrian variant was no exception". It simply is not relevant that some people hold the belief that Austrian economics is mainstream; the profession of economics excludes Austrian economics from the mainstream, and Austrian economists in general accept this as well. taion 00:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I gave you a direct quote from Boettke. He said "There are, for example, those who think of Austrian economics as a branch of mainstream neoclassical economics, there are those who see the school as representative of a radical alternative to the mainstream, and there are those who see the school mainly within a broader program of social theory." Now that is a model neutral point of view statement. Boettke himself might hold the opinion that it is heterodox, but he still notes that not everyone agrees with that view. This article should be that same neutral statement, which is that some think it's heterodox and some think it's not. Until you can find a source that says that the consensus view is that it is heterodox then you are unjustified in stating as a matter of fact that it is heterodox. Operation Spooner 01:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
NPOV requires representing all significant views, not all views period. The article on the Earth does not include any disclaimer stating that some people think the Earth is flat, because this view is entirely marginal. Austrian economics is generally simply classified as heterodox as a matter of fact. For example, see this paper. Among other quotes, "Amongst the very few that have questioned the nature of heterodox economics it is recognised that heterodoxy as an umbrella term to cover the coming together of, sometimes long-standing, separate heterodox projects or traditions. The latter include post Keynesianism, (old) institutionalism, feminist, social, Marxian and Austrian economics, among others." Most publications that discuss this (including Boettke's book, if you look past that section of the introduction), simply implicitly do this classification -- Austrian publications are filed with other heterodox ones, and, for example, the Blackwell Companion to the History of Economic Thought very simply just puts the section on "The Austrian School of Economics, 1950-2000" under the chapter on Postwar Heterodox Economics. This classification is simply accepted as a matter of fact. taion 01:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Taion: It is obviously controversial to marginalize (ahem) any significant school of thought as not "orthodox" (lit., "right/correct/straight thinking") but rather "heterodox" (lit. "other thinking"). The term is almost always used as a smug pejorative term. The encyclopedia ought not assert controversial, POV claims in the encyclopedic voice. DickClarkMises 14:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if it seemed like I was trying to portray the Austrian school as not being significant; my point is that the view that the Austrian school is not heterodox is in fact not a significant view, and the classification of Austrian economics as being heterodox simply is not controversial. The references I've linked to above, in addition to many others, simply classify Austrian economics as being heterodox without further reservations. Whether or not you feel that the classification of an approach as being heterodox is pejorative (I don't agree here, FWIW), the classification of "heterodox economics" has a quite specific meaning at the moment that is in fact encyclopedic. taion 03:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Selective Citation

Most of this article is not properly cited. Try to keep an NPV attitude when inserting 'citation needed' tags. Please do not make selective demands for citation about statements that you disagree with. lk 22:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Politicians

Can we include a list of politicians who subscribe to the Austrian School, but maybe aren't economists first and foremost? For example, Ron Paul subscribes to the Austrian School[1], but while he isn't an economist, policies he goes by as politician have a huge effect on everyone in the USA.--DerRichter (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Write For The Layman?

The first sentence of this article is currently:

The Austrian School, also known as the “Vienna School” or the “Psychological School”, is a heterodox school of economic thought that advocates adherence to strict methodological individualism.

It goes on in this direction for several paragraphs.

While I appreciate the apparently-rigorous definitions involved, honestly I have no idea what most of this means. I'm not an economist, just a layperson with an interest in laissez-faire economics. Is there any we could make the first part of the article a gentle introduction and set of definitions appropriate for the interested layman, and save the twenty-dollar words like "heterodox", "praexology", and "methodological individualism" for five or six paragraphs in? I feel like the world would be a better place if more people had at least a basic grounding in economics, but this isn't helping. --Larry Hastings (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I sympathize, but can't think of how to reformulate the lede without losing clarity and conciseness. I've added a tag to the top of the page requesting that it be translated into less technical terminology though. Skomorokh incite 15:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss your edits

I request that any editors who make edits or reverts discuss them here.

If the WP:BRD is thwarted by people who refuse to follow the D part, then that cycle ends up being Bold-->Revert-->Bold-->Revert. If you do not discuss your changes, you are disrupting Wikipedia by making contentious edits without seeking consensus. Zenwhat (talk) 03:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to claim that making any undiscussed edit to this article is contentious? Skomorokh incite 03:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I arguing that several users all making edits without discussing them overturns WP:BRD, forcing me to edit-war, since you won't discuss your edits. Zenwhat (talk) 03:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

There are hundreds of essays out there, what is so special about this one? And why have you just started editing the article without discussing your changes first? This does not seem like the behaviour of someone approaching this article in good faith. I urge you to self-revert and make your proposals here for the community to decide on, as you yourself have proposed.Skomorokh incite 04:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't. I'm discussing the matter right now. Look, if you oppose WP:BRD, you seem to oppose Wikipedia policy since it is a summary of policy -- not "just an essay." Zenwhat (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh: Bold Revert Discuss is (just) a special case of Wikipedia:Consensus, which is a policy. You are supposed to be bold (a guideline) and edit a page upfront. Talk pages are only intended to discuss how things are going. Assume good faith (also a guideline), states that you must assume good faith, especially when people are following wikipedia guidence correctly. It is typically unwise to announce upfront that you will be assuming bad faith.

One of the few times the talk page does become essential is when the basic consensus process is confounded (like when someone reverts). In that case it's pretty essential.

Please stick to the wikipedia consensus process! :-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation of the time value of a good

In the Analytical Framework section, the last paragraph, one of the sentences says "A factory making goods next year is worth as much less as the goods it is making next year are worth." I have a pretty good grasp on the English language, but this sounds like you are saying the same thing twice ie: a = a. Maybe this is economics jargon that I have not heard of. If I am wrong, can someone explain?75.84.203.26 (talk) 06:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

This article doesn't have a [NPOV], I call attention to the following phrases:

While often controversial, , One criticism of the Austrian school is its rejection of the scientific method and empirical testing in favor of supposedly self-evident axioms and logical reasoning and others. The article would be better served with either gratuitous citations of the people that use the 'weasel words' originally, or the words should be taken out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.68.16.40 (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important People

Does anyone agree that this section is maybe getting a little overdone? We can't go listing every single Austrian here, and some of these guys are pretty marginal. Teaching in the State of Virginia doesn't automatically qualify you as being an important Austrian. Maybe we should limit this to Austrians who are actually important in a stricter sense... or remove it all together, although I think there are important economists that deserve inclusion here. 213.37.192.62 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)