Talk:Australian flag debate

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Caution WARNING: This article (and this talk page) is not the place to conduct this debate, but the place to simply list the various arguments.
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Would it be appropriate to add some proposed "new" flags to this page? For example, the ones at http://chuq.net/ausflag/ . The only flag that isn't currently in existence on the page is the Aboriginal/Australia flag hybrid, which for many reasons is inappropriate (Aboriginal flag is copyrighted; top-left corner implies subordination; etc). It should probably stay on the page in its own section, describing WHY it is inappropriate. -- Chuq 05:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The question is how to decide which to include or not include. The various Ausflag competition designs are the ones that have had the most publicity, so perhaps they are the best option. JPD (talk) 11:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Posting Ausflag's designs on there could set a precedence for everyone uploading their design. It's best to leave it alone (unless an article is created under "Proposed Flags of Australia").To be honest, aside from a few genuinely good designs the vast majority look horrendous - vexillogically speaking, of course (is that even a word???). Dragases 09:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with you that they don't need to be added. However, what you or I think of the designs is irrelevant - the issue is whether they are important enough to be mentioned. JPD (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Flag not displaying?

Is it just me, or is the second flag under "Arguments in favour of changing the flag" not showing up? -- Chuq 22:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not just you. All I see is white.--cj | talk 00:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I notice it shows up here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Australian_republic_supporters.svg
But not here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Australian_republic_supporters.svg
May be a wikimedia commons thing with svg's? -- Chuq 01:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It appears for me on its image subpage in both Wikipedia and Commons. It just doesn't show up in the article. --cj | talk 01:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I just went to save the image to attempt to upload it under a better name (as well as see if it fixed this issue) and found that the name of the file is 800px-Flag_of_Australian_republic_supporters.svg.png - note the png extension - I will rename and re-upload and see how it goes -- Chuq 01:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Done. The flag now displays properly, and is under a more appropriately descriptive filename -- Chuq 01:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That's not the problem - Wikipedia displays svg images by creating png images. Look at the Australian flag - the image shown there is is "800px-Flag of Australia.svg.png", yet the image displays properly. There must be something funny going on. I've noticed images on a few other pages not displaying as well. JPD (talk) 08:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Anti-British/Republican Bias?

In the paragraph "Replacing the Union Flag with the Aboriginal Flag", it says "the suggestion is well intentioned — it implies removal of British ties". Why does implying removal of British ties make it well intentioned?

It doesn't and I removed it for being non-NPOV. JAJ 01:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree. Why was using the Union Jack in the Australian flag design neccesarily a bad idea?

Why is the black flag better then the British flag?

Indeed. Im very proud of ties to the old country and I don't make any excuses for it.

58.164.28.8 04:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again, please keep your personal opinions to yourself. This is not the place for that - 52 Pickup 14:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's keep to the facts?

This "Abandoning the flag would insult the memory of the nation's 102,000 war dead." from the Arguments in favour of changing the flag, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read in an encyclopaedia. Unless there's good argument to keep such a line, I'm going to remove it. Dgen 03:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is ridiculous, but it is an argument that the pro-flag crew keep raising. There is no good argument for it, but as it is one of the emotional arguments used, I think it should remain. Gillyweed 03:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Dgen, if that sentence appeared by itself, it would be ridiculous, but you have quoted it out of context. It appears in a list of things that "supporters of the current version of the national flag argue". We are reporting on the arguments used, not suggesting that they have any merit. JPD (talk) 09:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. How about giving the line it's own bullet point? I may be wrong, but to me it looks like it's presented as 'here's the argument for keeping the flag' (the part about the navy) then 'here's the fact supporting that argument' (insulting the war dead). If it's made into it's own bullet point then it's clearly part of the 'arguments used' list and not presented as fact. Of course, if I'm the only person seeing it that way, I'll leave it be. Cheers. Dgen 11:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I reckon the argument that Australia should change her flag because it looks like New Zealand's is ridiculous given the number of indistinguishable, lookalike national flags there in the world - Indonesia and Monaco have identical flags!

So leave the case for the existing Australian flag in the hands of it's supporters I say.

58.164.28.8 14:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Cross and aboriginies

The Southern Cross was known to ancient aboriginies and features in at least 5 of their traditional legends that I know of, including the story of Mululu and his 4 daughters. When I mention this in the article somebody keeps taking it out.

Here's the story anyway (not many modern, urban aboriginies seem to know this one):

"The Australian Aborigines who have a greater knowledge of the night sky than most white men, have surrounded the heavenly bodies with countless myths explaining their origin. One myth says that the stars of the Southern Cross are the man Mululu and his daughters.

Mululu, the leader of the Kandra tribe, had four daughters of whom he was very fond, but to his sorrow he had no son. When he grew old, he called his daughters together to discuss their future. He said that he expected to die soon, so, since they had no brother to protect them from the spite and jealousies of the women or from being forced into marriage with a man whom they disliked, he wanted them to leave the earth when he died and to meet him in the sky. The father then explained that, with the aid of spirits of the night, he had recently visited a clever medicine-man, Conduk, who was willing and able to help the girls reach their new home.

When their father died, the daughters set out to find Conduk, whose camp was far away to the north. They had to travel many days before they reached it, and they recognised Conduk by the long thick beard by which their father had described him. Resting beside his camp was a huge pile of silver-grey rope, which the medicine-man had plaited form the long hairs of his own beard. One end of the rope reached up into the sky.

The girls were terrified to learn that the rope was their only means of reaching their father again. But with the guidance and encouragement of Conduk they climbed to the top of the rope, where they were delighted to find their father waiting for them.

Now, the daughters are the four bright stars of the Southern Cross. Nearby and caring for them as is their father; the bright star Centaurus." 58.164.28.8 14:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing the Southern Cross is not the issue here - that's probably why that bit was removed, even though it's an interesting story. Lead sentence for the article: The Australian flag debate is a low-key but persistent debate over whether the Australian flag should be changed in order to remove the Union Flag from the canton.... The flag debate is not about removing the Southern Cross, but removing the Union Flag. - 52 Pickup 15:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't mention aboriginies in your arguments against the flag and we won't mention them in our arguments for it.

58.164.28.8 07:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The article clearly states that indigenous people may have objection to the Union Flag, not to the Southern Cross. In particular, the flag makes no mention of indigenous Australians, many of whom regard the Union Flag as a reminder of colonial oppression and dispossession. Please stick to the point. - 52 Pickup 08:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Noone here should be using any argument for or against the flag - we are simply reporting on the debate. At any rate, the argument you give about the Aboriginal connections with the Southern Cross, apart from being very lame and possibly more likely to offend Aboriginal people than the UJ is, is at most a very poor rebuttal of an argument for changing the flag. That is not the same thing as an argument for keeping it. JPD (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well the Southern Cross stars in at least 5 aboriginal legends that I know of. Pity a lot of modern, urban aboriginies (and that's 75% of them) aren't more familiar with these tales.

58.164.28.8 04:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow! 5 Aboriginal legends! It is probably a pity that many modern Indigenous Australians aren't more familiar with their ancestors' culture, but it is pretty stupid to expect someone to know one of your five legends just because they are Aboriginal. What if they come from one of the more than 350 groups apart from the five that your legends come from? But apart from that, I still don't understand how being "known to ancient aboriginies (sic)" (of course it was known!) adds significance to the southern cross as a symbol for a flag. Generally symbols on flags are chosen for something more than simply "being known" and appearing in a legend. There is nothing in what you have written that gives the southern cross any more signficance than many other constellations. ANFA's use of these legends may be a way of relating the flag to Aboriginal history and encouraging indigenous people to identify it, but as an "argument" it is simply lame, especially when combined with your mispelling of "Aborigines". JPD (talk) 13:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well mate, flags have no meaning in ancient aboriginal culture anyway. Even cloth was unknown to them.

Neville Bonner, the first aboriginal to serve in federal parliament, was a big fan of the Australian flag. He said "long may it fly unchanged".

58.164.28.8 12:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you have missed the point that this is not the place for discussing the flag, it is the place for discussing what belongs in the page. I don't see what your statement has to do with anything I have said. JPD (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Australian flag and the Royal Australian Navy

Somebody keeps taking this out, this is a reference from the claim the Royal Australian Navy has used the blue Australian flag since 1911:

"On 5 October 1911, the existence of the new Australian Navy was formally advised when the Naval Board issued an historic order promulgating the designation 'Royal Australian Navy' for the permanent naval forces of the Commonwealth and for the ships of the Navy to be designated 'His Majesty's Australian Ships'.

The order also directed that all ships and vessels of the R.A.N. were to fly at the stern the White Ensign as a symbol of the authority of the Crown and at the jack staff, the flag of Australia."

George Odgers, "The Royal Australian Navy - An Illustrated History", pp. 41

58.164.28.8 14:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it was removed as part of a mass reversion of all your edits, most of which were not helpful. At any rate, the article definitely does not need such a detailed reference for the fact that the blue flag was used. The text of the reference definitely does not need to be included. JPD (talk) 16:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New image

I have inserted an image into the arguments for keeping the flag.

Opponents of the flag have two images in their section, I beleive supporters are entitled to at least one.

Steakknife 14:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The image seems reasonably appropriate, but I must point out that neither supporters nor opponents are entitled to any images. Images should be added in the way that best illustrates the debate. JPD (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This needed to be said

This is said by supporters of the flag and I have included it in the article:

Supporters of the flag counter assertions that it is not representative of Australian Aborignies and that the Union Flag stands for oppression. The Southern Cross was known to ancient aboriginies and features in a number of their traditional legends. [3] They point out that the Union Flag means different things to different people and that for better for worse or indifferent European colonisation of Australia happened and in less than 200 years there was a modern Western nation established because of that very fact. [4]

58.164.28.8 14:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Good point, except for the bit about the Southern Cross - the debate is not really concerned about removing that. I'm working on a separate section to clarify this. - 52 Pickup 15:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
You find me one notable indigenous person who states that they believe that the Australian flag represents them - particularly the southern cross - and I'll agree to include something in the article. Not quite sure, except as an indulgence of racial prejudice, what establishing "modern western nation in less than 200 years" has to do with national flag change. PS, I'd be a lot happier if some of the diehard ANFA-ites would get log-ins, and actively participate in Wikipedia, rather than just sniping at this one article. Slac speak up! 05:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
They seem to be AFS people, not ANFA-ites. JPD (talk) 11:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the AFS?

124.176.75.249 (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Cross

Ain't Ausflag trying to adance the argument Australia needs a new flag with an aboriginal element?

Have a look at the Australian National Flag Association's website: www.australianflag.org.au

Ain't these people trying to advance the argument that the Southern Cross device does have something to do with Australian aborignies?

Actually, some people argue that this ethnic minority within the Australian state does not need special representation on a new flag at all.

58.164.28.8 15:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is, to say the least, patronising, to insist that a flag represents indigenous Australians without having consulted them or cited their view. Their viewpoints are the only ones worth consulting on the flag issue. And the only views of prominent indigenous Australians that I've encountered state that they believe the flag does not represent them. Slac speak up! 05:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[battle ranting removed]

Once again, you are confusing counterarguments with arguments for the flag. At any rate, I don't see Ausflag saying the flag needs a particularly Aboriginal element. JPD (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't returned servicemen get a say?

Steakknife 05:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't be stupid. Do servicement get a say about the flag? Sure. Do servicemen get a say on whether the flag is representative of indigenous people? Not unless they are indigenous. Does an indigenous person (such as Bonner) supporting the flag because of it's history justify references to the southern cross in myths? Not at all. Let's use some common sense. JPD (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commonwealth star

Maybe we should have a section for the Commonwealth star.

I've heard some republicans who support a unitary state say it should not carry over to a new flag.

Steakknife 08:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Haven't you been around long enough to know that "I've heard some..." are some of the worst ways to start a sentence on Wikipedia. If you have reliable sources for whatever you want to include, then go ahead, be bold, and we'll see where it goes. JPD (talk) 20:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nigel Morris quote

Mr Nigel Morris is one Johnny who really loves putting Ausflag/ALP to the sword. I have seen and read reports of Mr Morris saying: "it is the flag that Australia has grown up under and the flag that has been associated with all of her many achievements on the international scene". Why not keep these words in the "Keeping the flag" section of the article? Does he qualify as a source worth quoting?

Which one of you dogs keeps taking it out?

I really don't understand why you insist on being uncivil, rather than having a reasonable discussion. I also don't understand why you think this particular reason for keeping the flag needs to contain a direct quote, rather than a summary of the position (with the same meaning but better wording) along the lines of most of the other points in the article. Rewording is hardly taking it out - do you actually have a problem with the improved wording, or are you simply looking for an argument? JPD (talk) 11:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I am saying use the exact quote from the West Australian newspaper on Flag Day 2003. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.108.36 (talk) 13:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The images

I'll take legal action if the two images in the Keeping the flag section are removed dogs. You big bow wow dogs! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.132.224 (talk) 10:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current vs existing

Saying "the current Australian flag" is implying it is only here for the moment. Is not "existing" a more neutral term?

Steakknife (talk) 14:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Slac speak up! 03:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity v Islam

The president of the Western Australian chapter of the Australian National Flag Association told me some members of the community have put it to him that the three Christian crosses of the Union Jack offend Muslim Australians.

I inserted this argument into the appropriate section of the article but some filthy rotten no good animal took it out.

I hate you I do hate you.

Steakknife (talk) 11:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

That's right let's get a bit of Christianity vs Islam into the mix.

That'll galvanise a significant section of Anglo Australia.

You might want to find a reliable source for the idea that this is a common argument for changing the flag. A personal conversation is not a reliable source for anything and we need a bit more than "some people put it to him that it offends". This page shouldn't be galvanising anyone in any direction, simply reporting the debate. JPD (talk) 13:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It might not be one of the more common arguments but it is a view that has been advanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steakknife (talk • contribs) 15:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

By who? Where? Show us the reliable sources and then we can talk. If we want to throw up anecdotes, my friend's brother's friend's uncle's sister-in-law's friend's mother's friend's niece's stepson told me that supporters of the current flag argue it should be kept because it highlights the good old days before all these Indigenous Australians (isn't the word they use) and non-white immigrants (again not the word they used) came along. In case it wasn't obvious I made this entire thing up but it highlights why we can't use personal unsourced anecdotes Nil Einne (talk) 15:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It was me who deleted it, because not only was it uncited, it didn't make any sense. The union flag doesn't intentionally contain Christian crosses, it is simply pure coincidence, and to suggest it offends ethnic minorities is politically correct nonsense. - Tom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.226.35 (talk) 22:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, it doesn't matter whether it is a valid argument so much as whether it is actually used. The article is reporting the debate, not arguing either side. However, since it is uncited and not on of the common arguments, there was no problem with removing it. JPD (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] =Red Ensign

The caption says "The Australian Red Ensign, sometimes used as the national flag up until 1953". I cant work that out. The Australian Flag Society would tell you it was never used on land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.176.170 (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Used as the national flag is questionable, given the status of the Union Jack, but never used on land??? Surely the AFS are not that stupid? JPD (talk) 21:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)