Talk:Australian Senate

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There is no convention that requires a government to automatically resign or call an election once supply is blocked. The 'convention' was made up in the 1970s to suit the political rhetoric of the time. In fact a government may 'hang tough' for as long as the GG allows them to do so.

Removed this:

The original arrangement was a block voting mechanism [OK, but what does that mean?]. In 1919, this was ammended to allow for preferential voting. The block voting model tended to grant landslide majorities very easily. In 1946, the Australian Labor Party government won 30 out of the 33 Senate seats. In 1948, partially in response to this extreme situation, they introduced proportional representation in the Senate.

Because it is badly written and confusing. I substituted a simpler thing, losing some meaning, but trusting that someone with expertise in this area will come along and restore the cut in such a way that it isn't self-contradictoty. Tannin 08:03 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

OK. I'll do some more research and re-write the description correctly. Pde

Roadrunner and Tannin edited in the following paragraph:

In contrast to Presidental systems such as that of the United States (in which the inability of the President to pass a major bill through the legislature is considered routine), the Australian parliamentary system often regards the inability of the government to pass a major bill as quite significant. Because the Senate and the House of Representatives are elected with different voting procedures, the party composition of the Senate rarely matches that of the House of Representatives. Further, in contrast to other parliamentary systems, the Australian Senate is expected to play an active legislative role.

I get the feeling that this highly comparative approach to describing the way the Senate operates is quite confusing, because the whole picture is not present:

  • Many parliaments have legislative deadlocks of various sorts; the House of Lords was able to cause them before 1911, too.
  • Party composition in upper & lower houses is different in most places
  • A major difference between Australia and the US is that almost all votes are along party lines. The ALP has a binding caucus; the Liberals (& even the Democrats) have very low tollerance for their MPs crossing the floor.
  • The US Senate does take a proactive legislative role.

I've tried to re-write the paragraph by saying how things happen in the Australian parliament, including all of the important facts. If readers want to compare this to other political systems (not just those of the US & the UK) then hopefully wikipedia can provide clear articles for other parliaments too!

Pde 23:29 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

Good move, Pde. It is a lot clearer now. Tannin 23:48 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

the infamous clash between the British House of Commons and House of Lords in 1909. Can someone explain this, or point to a page which discusses it? RickK 04:43, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's discussed on the House of Lords page. I've tried to clarify the text a little. -- Pde

During a double dissolution, how is it determined which members will serve half terms and which members will serve full terms? RickK 04:50, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good question. IIRC, it's been changed (or at least debated) over the years. One system which the Liberals and elements of the ALP have supported, and may now be in place, is a system in which the first 6 senators elected in the STV process are elected for two terms. This automatically gives all the full-term seats to major parties, probably 3 each -- and means that a double dissolution is a serious threat disruption to the long term health of a smaller party like the Democrats, which often has two senators from a State. -- Pde 16:49, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I dispute the claim that the ability to block supply makes the government "accountable" to the Senate: this at the least is a point of contention rather than being authoritatively settled. Lacrimosus 23:50, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Block voting meant 3 votes if 3 vacancies.

The original voting system for the Australia Senate gave each voter a vote for each vacancy, originally 3 per state. The first 3 past the post where then elected.

I am not quite sure what this system is called.

Later on the system was adapted to include preferences.

The disadvantage of this system was that is often lead to lopsided results, as bad as 36-0. These lopsided results brought the Senate into disrepute, leading eventually to the adoption of STV in 1949.

Syd1435 02:51, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

[edit] Nader, Kerry, et al. on the Australian Senate ballot?????

I'd say it looks a lot more like this. We could probably get away with putting that image (or a more contemporary equivalent, with the Greens instead of the NDP) on Wikipedia; copyright is unlikely to subsist in those images. -- pde 04:43, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Senate Ballot Paper names.

I have chosen names to be short, and to make some sense to non-Australian readers, hence Bush (Republican) and Kerrry (Democrat) etc.

Syd1435 06:48, 2004 Oct 7 (UTC)

  • Please don't. Just include a generic name that is not an American political figure. I don't particularly want to see American politics entering into an article about the politics of Australia. Besides which, it sort of looks like we're being ruled by Americans, and I really do object to that (no offence to Americans, but we are an independent nation even if we are still technically a monarchy). - Ta bu shi da yu 13:51, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I was going to edit it to match the Tasmanian senate paper (as it would be the smallest)? Shouldn't be a problem with using a real example should there? -- Chuq 22:03, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Done that now - could do with a better way of signifying a tick box, but is a lot easier to read than the last example. -- Chuq 01:32, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Double Dissolusion

Just because the 1975 double dissolusion may not have been to put supply through, does not mean it cannot be used for that purpose. The reason the GG wanted supply through before the election was that he wanted money to start flowing at the government departments. Xtra 23:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

1. The better practice with contested reverts is to talk them out rather than just doing them.

2. It was an accident that other bills were available on which a double dissolution could be granted. The rules don't apply because they do not cover the situation the Senate refuses supply and there are no double dissolution bills. In that case the two houses cannot be dissolved, supply can be exhausted, and there is no way to resolve the situation.

A number of writers have criticised Kerr's action in that he applied the double dissolution power to resolve a Supply crisis for which they were not designed. It' a basic principle of constitutional law that you should not invoke a targeted power to achieve a different object.

There may be a case for putting both views. There is no case for putting for one view as though it had universal acceptance. Alan 09:09, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Appointment to the senate

Appointments made under section 15 of the Constitution should probably be mentioned. I would add it but I don't know where to find the info. Senate Committees (standing and sitting) are also notably absent.--nixie 05:47, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1975

There should be a section on this as it was probably the most significant event in the Senate since federation. Xtra 02:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the newly re-written "blocking supply" section is a good summary. Given that all we really want is a summary (we can't give undue prominence to one year out of 105, that's what the Australian constitutional crisis of 1975 article is for), feel free to add whatever's required. Slac speak up! 02:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
missed that. Xtra 03:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tied Vote

Hi, I'm just wondering what happens in the case of a tied vote in the Senate. An even number of seats means the vote could be tied 38-38, and unlike the US there's no Vice President to step in and break it. Is the bill considered defeated in that case or does something else happen. -- James Ferguson

In the event of a tied vote on a bill in the Senate, the bill is considered defeated. However, my understanding is that a procedural motion can succeed on a tie. Slac speak up! 09:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I've written a bit on this in a new section on votes in the Senate, but have not located anything to suggest tied procedural motions can succeed. It appears to me that section 23 governs all divisions. BTW Slac thanks for your welcome all those months ago. hamiltonstone 03:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parliamentary Chamber infobox

I see a disagreement between CJ and Lockesdonkey about creation of a new infobox in this article. I thought the infobox was quite a good assembly of information dispersed throughout the article (some of it not easily found). I note Lockesdonkey's observation that these are used in other legislature pages, though the format is not always standard (compare Bundestag with Scottish Parliament for example). Unless WP has a policy that an infobox should not duplicate information in an article in any way (in which case, there seem to be a lot of info boxes that need removing!), i would favour its retention. I will post this to the two user pages, revert the removal of the box for now, and await discussion here. hamiltonstone 23:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Hamilton. While I recognize that the format is a bit messy as of now, I believe this is NOT a reason to remove infoboxes, but rather to edit the infobox or create a standard for it. I did not create the legislature infobox, nor was I involved in its development; I merely applied it to articles which did not previously bear the box. If CJ considers the application of any infobox to this article (or, for that matter, the other ones that I applied it to, including Australian Parliament and Australian House of Representatives and their Canadian counterparts), then I would ask him what exactly impels him to this position. If he merely thinks the infobox as it stands is bad, I would ask that he leave the infoboxes intact and edit the infobox into a shape more to his liking. Lockesdonkey 22:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible restructure

The article Senate of Canada achieved Feature Article status. It could be a good model for some improvements to the Australian Senate page. The differences between the two institutions do mean there need to be some differences in presentation of information - the powerful role of Australia's Senate makes procedural aspects more important, as well as warranting more attention to elections and balance of power arrangements. On the other hand, the Canadian article has better quality text, is less fragmented both visually and thematically, and is better organised. in coming months i might try some reorganisation to build on the Canadian exemplar and see how it goes. This may involve shifting most or all tabulations of results etc to the end of the article, and perhaps moving some of them out in favour of directing viewers to more appropriate locations. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW I think I once noticed a possible error in the "historical" table (a contradiction with another article somewhere). Sorry but I can't remember exactly, I think it was a Labor/Democrats count in the 90s. I was unable to resolve the error, so left it as is. Just a point to note if you're going to go through it carefully. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crossing the floor - delete

The "Crossing the floor" section should be deleted. It details specific instances of crossing the floor, and is out of place in a general article on the Australian Senate. Of course crossing the floor can be mentioned, but since the Senate is no different from the House in this respect, little needs to be said. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Little needs to be said, except for that a majority is much easier to generate from the minority in the Senate than in the lower house. I'm not sure of the last time a couple of renegade MPs in the lower meant they had the power to block bills. Timeshift (talk) 01:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I guess that in turn comes from the fact that it is hard to get a "landslide" victory in the Senate: if one party manages to get a majority in the Senate, it is by a narrow margin. Not sure where that belongs. Perhaps somewhere in section 4 "Membership of the Senate". Peter Ballard (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
In one sense, i see the first two points - the content is perhaps too specific. however, it is also part of a broader section that explains to an outsider how the Senate actually works - including an outsider who might not be familiar with tight party discipline or its limitations. I think we might be better served to alter the section to put floor-crossing in that broader context. I will tinker a bit sometime - in the meantime i'm inserting references to deal with the 'fact' tags. BTW I was thinking to get an assessment of what was needed to get Australian Senate tagged a Good Article. If either of you have other suggestions, I can do some following up. Cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Good work Hamilton. Timeshift (talk) 02:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)