Talk:Australian English

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Australian English is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.
Flag
Portal
 Australian English is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
edit
Archive
Archives and related discussion
Talk:Australian English
Archive I Archive II Archive III
Archive IV Archive V Archive VI
Talk:Australian English vocabulary
Archive I Archive II Archive III
Wiktionary:Appendix talk:
Australian English vocabulary
Talk:Australian English phonology
Archive I Archive II
Talk:Regional variation in Australian English

Contents

[edit] "History"

I made a few changes to the History section. It placed too much importance on convict origins, vaguely suggesting that almost the entire Australian immigrant population was convicts, and making no reference to the other settlers who came along with the convicts.

I also think there is too much emphasis placed on "Cockney" origins. In terms of vocabulary there is very little in the way of genuine Cockneyisms in Australian English, in terms of pronunciation AuE uses intervocalic /d/ where Cockney uses a glottal stop, AuE does not drop initial /h/, no changing of /θ/ to /f/ (maths = mafs), or [ð] for /v/ (bother = bovver), the list goes on.

Finally, I also removed the sentence "Since that time, Australian English, has borrowed increasingly from external sources." The word "borrowed" seems to be referring only to vocabulary, rather than general influences that the previous paragraphs were attempting to cover. (Also, it ignores the fact that in terms of vocabulary AuE not only borrows from other Englishes (mostly North American), but also creates its own neologisms.) If this sentence was changed to "Since that time, Australian English, has been increasingly influenced from external sources" - well, that wouldn't be right either. Like all other Englishes, external influences are only of minor significance once the variety has a life of its own within its own culture.WikiLambo 20:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)James Lambert

I suspect that 19th century Broad AE speakers were a lot more like Cockney. Possibly the best example of this is C. J. Dennis's The Sentimental Bloke (1915), in which Dennis features phonetic representations of working class Melbourne dialogue, e.g.
This ev'nin' I was sittin' wiv Doreen,
Peaceful an' 'appy wiv the day's work done,
Watchin', be'ind the orchard's bonzer green,
The flamin' wonder of the settin' sun.
Even the /h/ in "behind" is dropped. Dennis was born and bred in Auburn, South Australia.
Grant | Talk 07:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
It might be appropriate to include a reference to the increasing influence which Australian English has had on UK usage in recent years. For example, I'm hearing "no worries" more often, usually substituting for "don't mention it" or "no problem". It would be interesting to speculate about the drivers for this - Australian media influences in the UK are strong, from Rupert Murdoch through Neighbours to Kath & Kim; and Australianisms may be seen as less culturally threatening than Americanisms. I suspect there may be some academic evidence worth considering before making an edit, however. Artq55 21:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
On that note, there has been a fierce debate at Talk:Football (word) about whether or not Australian usage has influenced UK rugby league fans, in referring to the game as "football". My feeling is that at least some English RL gans have always called it "football", but it's hard to prove one way or the other. 124.169.215.177 (talk) 07:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Microsoft

To Jimp: May I suggest the removal of the Microsoft reference in this section
I feel the statement "especially Microsoft's spellchecker" may be unfounded. From my usage of the spell checker it provides the words commonly used in Australia. If the statement is founded it should also be noted that Microsoft has only had dominance for approximately 15 years. What about the other word processors such as WordPerfect and Multimate.
Could Jimp please explain the basis for the statement. (I tried to raise this thought with Jimp directly but currently my knowledge of using Wikipedia is not sufficient.) Audictionary 21:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Only 15 years ... but a significant 15 years when it comes to word processors. Compare pre-1990s the use of word processors to the use since.
Anyhow ... Wikipedia policy is to only have included that which is varifiable. Therefore if the statement about Microsoft's spellchecker is unfounded then it should be removed. I don't know that I can adequately explain the basis for the statement ... but I'm not the one who made it.
I would note, however, that, as far as I'm aware, Word's default is US English even when the software was bought in Australia. Of course, the settings can be changed but will everyone be bothered or even know how? These are just my speculations though and nor do speculations have any place in articles.
One way of getting in contact with another user is to go to their user page. Usually you can get there by clicking on the person's name. My user page is User:Jimp. Leave a message on the person's talk page. Mine's User talk:Jimp.
Also it's usual to add new sections to the end of a talk page under an appropriate title ... otherwise your comment might be overlooked for several months (sorry about that). You can make the title by putting text between two pairs of equals signs (or more or fewer depending on the level of title you want). The easy way to add a new section, though, is to click on the plus sign between Edit this page and History at the top of the page. Jimp 08:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This particular problem is not Word's default. It is the Windows operating system Regional settings that need to be set correctly. If set correctly Word's default for Australia will be the Australian English dictionary.
Is it Microsoft's fault the computer suppliers do not set the computers up correctly?
It doesn't hurt to speculate. There is always someone somewhere, who may be able to clarify.
I too think Microsoft could have done a better job. The user interface repeatedly displays American spelling. But can I blame them for American spelt words having used MS software for a few decades. I still can't find a concrete example where I can. Sorry.Audictionary 11:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australian English spell check files

Hi,

I would like to suggest a link to JustLocal (http://www.JustLocal.com.au) be added to the external links section.

This article is an example of why the work I do is important.

To quote from the "Spelling" section of the article, "In academia, as long as the spelling is consistent, the usage of various English variants is generally accepted."

Has anyone noticed "Americanism" and "Americanizm" both used in the article.

To my knowledge only the dictionary files I produce for Australian users in the form of the "kelvin" version of the files, and the Microsoft Exclude file, helps Australian's avoid this very common issue.

The Australian English dictionary spell check files can be accessed via the links at the bottom of the JustLocal page for OpenOffice.org, Firefox/Thunderbird, Microsoft Word.

The files now provide writers with invaluable tools to not only spell check when using Desktop programs, but also when using browsers such as Internet Explorer, Firefox 2 and Opera.

I hope my work is of assistance to others.

Regards - Kelvin Eldridge Audictionary 21:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)



There is an interesting development in the Microsoft Office 2007 package regarding the Australian English spell check. Previously, setting the language of a word to Aust. English only applied to that letter or word. The next letter reverts to the previous setting unless specifically selected. All templates needed to be set to Aust.English or else the US English default would take precedence. The other issue was that "-izm" and other US English words were not flagged for correction even under Australian English default setting. The current version addresses these two issues. Regards - Mark Vincent Andmark 06:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Yeah - No"

Does anyone have sources on the use of this new Australianism - I hear it alllllll the time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Just nigel (talk • contribs) 11:20, 21 November 2006.


The Macquarie dictionary. No Australianism, just the words used by more Australians.
Thank you for the comment - Kelvin. Audictionary 21:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
To Just nigel: I don't notice hearing "Yeah - no" very much in person. I notice on television that Jim Richards says it, but he's a New Zealander who just lives in Australia. Not sure if that proves it's local to only some regions. --Scott Davis Talk 11:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


It depends where you come from. It is exceptionally popular in Queensland, and it is infiltrating W.A. and S.A., and not having been much to Vic, can't say. It is definitely around. I'm not sure if it's a kiwi thing in its entirety, but I do hear kiwis saying it a fair bit over here in W.A.. And it spreads easily. Yeah, nah. is probably more the correct pronunciation in my opinion.Rolinator 23:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have heard it being said by country Queenslanders, but I've never heard it in Sydney (don't know about western sydney).Volantares 16:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I hear it a fair bit in WA and strangely have even caught myself on using it unintentionally. The usage is less confusing than it looks when verbalised, as the "no" is attached to the next sentence while the "yeah" is a distinctly separate filler word. Orderinchaos 23:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I HATE "yeahhhh no"!!

I'm sure I used it a lot as a kid (western Syndey) and still on occassion. I interpret it to mean "Yeah- I heard what you said and understand, but no- I disagree."--DrHacky 15:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Unique to Australia? I have heard "yeah - no" in US tv series such as 24 (TV series). Format 05:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It is used usually at the start of your answer of a question asked by someone, and I agree with DrHack's explanation. Noteably, it can often be heard by AFL players when they are interviewed after a game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.110.207 (talk) 02:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The meaning of "Waltzing Matilda"

I thought that "Waltzing Matilda" could mean "go travelling" or "hang", and in several lines of the song it was referring to hanging (the sentence for stealing sheep), which is why the song is sung with a sad air. http://www.mamalisa.com/?p=53&t=es&c=19 Sad mouse 15:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] /aː/ and /æ/

I don't think it is fair to say /aː/ is preferred in New South Wales, where in my experience (and that of at others I know, including linguists) there is quite a clear distinction between different words. I am a bit sceptical about the Crystal 1995 figures for Sydney, but even the Crystal figures show that the th eplace where /aː/ is most preferred is Adelaide. Would anyone object to changing "New South Wales" to "South Australia"? JPD (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The Received Pronunciation style Chahnce, plahnt et al. is famously associated with South Australia and Adelaide rather than New South Wales. While I suspect there are some cultivated speakers in most regions that favour this pronunciation, Adeliade is the place where it is the norm. Asa01 01:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with the two editors above. i have lived in Sydney all my life and have always prounounced such words as chance, advance and branch with the æ sound. There is, however, a difference between the New South Wales and Victorian pronunciation of "castle". Hence the contrasting vowels used for Newcastle in New South Wales and Castlemaine in Victoria.Michael Glass 07:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This is definitely the case. And Tasmania has been shown to have the greatest use of /æ/. The Victorian "a" and "e" merger is a slightly different issue and is also well-known. Grant | Talk 08:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Having lived in WA almost all my life, hearing "chaance", "daance" or "traansport" (almost always from Adelaideans) sounds almost jarring. I think it's a North vs South England thing personally. Orderinchaos 23:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a linguist, but in my experience you could cut regional accents into NSW+WA, SA, VIC, and QLD.. with TAS is a cross between VIC and NSW. But that's just my personal experience. No real discussion of QLD, but I've heard many QLDers, both from Brisbane and country areas, say orf for off, and many other idiosyncracies that do not exist anywhere else, but are otherwise similar to NSW. I concur with the conclusion that "received pronounciation" is far far more common in Adelaide. It would be interesting to see whether we can relate accents with colony history; i.e. Perth+Sydney+Hobart were older penal colonies, Brisbane was a latter penal colony, Adelaide was absolutely free settler only, and Melbourne was also effectively free-settler with a more significant lower class.. I'd have to check that). But that's original research ;). What do people think about colony background + accent though?121.44.37.142 02:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Perth wasn't actually an "old penal colony" by the way - founded in 1829 by free settlers, the convicts actually started arriving here in 1850 after they'd stopped going everywhere else, and the numbers were far less. Most ended up in Victoria after time served as that was where the money was at that time, until the 1890s gold rush WA was a pretty dismal place to be. BTW by the time of federation the population on the goldfields almost equalled that of Perth, although it dissipated later - a lot into agricultural areas which sprung up from about 1898 onwards. Orderinchaos 23:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
There aren't really enough consistent differences to talk about regional accents. There is some evidence for diffrences if we look at the history of settlement, Victoria was heavily settled by Tasmanians and NSW people, especially during the goldrushes of the 1850s. (Thereafter Victoria developed its own strong identity, based on its big population.) Compared to Victoria, WA had less immigration from other colonies/states and more direct immigration from the UK and Ireland, and not much of that until the importation of convicts in 1850-68. I'm not sure about Queensland, but the same is probably true there, possibly to a lesser extent, considering the common border with NSW. SA, as we know, never had its own convicts and also had heavy free immigration from the UK, which may explain the stronger similarities to received pronounciation. But this is all original research and we need good sources to back it up. Grant | Talk 03:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I think some Queenslanders have a unique accent, far more significant that WA's. You are probably right in regards to VIC = NSW + TAS, I had always seen tasmania as having a stronger accent similar to victoria's. I think it would be an interesting idea to discuss if there ever WAS research/analysis on it.Volantares 16:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
WA does not have a significant accent, but the way in which it is colloquially spoken does differ. i.e. a lazy NSW speaker and a lazy WA speaker sound very different, but the same people when speaking to be understood sound similarish. The similarity is strongest with areas outside Sydney, as I do pick a slightly 1960s accent in Sydney itself (get a Sydneysider to pronounce "Strathfield" or "Ashfield" and you'll see it right there.) Some speech patterns in Perth and southwestern WA definitely reflect some Southern European influence in word ordering, and the use of the Scots "eh?" (normally associated with Canada) is common as dirt here whereas it doesn't appear to be so in many other places. Rural WA people also have very different tones and accent to rural people in other states, and my friends from Mukinbudin, Merredin and Manjimup all sound about the same. Orderinchaos 23:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this here?

I feel that this paragraph should not be in this article:

An important aspect of Australian English usage, inherited in large part from Britain and Ireland, is the use of deadpan humour, in which a person will make extravagant, outrageous and/or ridiculous statements in a neutral tone, and without explicitly indicating they are joking. Tourists seen to be gullible and/or lacking a sense of humour may be subjected to tales of kangaroos hopping across the Sydney Harbour Bridge, "drop bears" and similar tall tales.

It has nothing to do with linguistics, the use of words, terminology or accent, which is what this article is about. Trying to shoehorn it into this article by claiming it is an "important aspect of Australian English usage" seems pretty dodgy. In any event, the para itself then says the same thing also happens in Britain in Ireland (though I suspect that this sort of thing occurs in many nations to varying extents.) Asa01 07:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I put back part of the para you deleted ie An important aspect of Australian English usage, inherited in large part from Britain and Ireland, is the use of deadpan humour, in which a person will make extravagant, outrageous and/or ridiculous statements in a neutral tone, and without explicitly indicating they are joking. which seems to me to be entirely relevant to the section. Albatross2147 12:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
OK then. I didn't think it was really a language issue myself, more cultural. I was going to move the whole thing to the deadpan humour article but on reading that I felt such a move would just add redundancy to it. Asa01 19:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youse

Is "youse" as the plural second person really an Irish influence? I hear it most from 2nd-3rd generation Australians of Italian and Greek descent. Any ideas how to find an appropriate reference? --Scott Davis Talk 04:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

i'd say yes mostly they don't youse, per se, they say yas rather than youse, more anglo saxon people would use it rather than italians and greeks... well at least in melbourne haha...Australian Jezza 14:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

How common is the word youse? I use it all the time, although at the moment i'm not living in australia, so I find myself writing it quite often. Also about how it would be spelt; i initially spelt it as you'se just because it didn't look as strange in context (maybe as a contraction of 'you guys' or something like that) but now tend to spell it as youse. Also, does it appear in any dictionaries, australian or otherwise? 189.149.89.205 03:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Considering that you guys is a relatively recent American import and that yous (I'm just spelling it as if it were a regular plural of some singular you, I'm not actually fussed how it's spelt since I never use yous) has been around for some time, the latter would not be a contraction of the former. Jɪmp 17:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victor Harbor

The Victor Harbour station has historically been spelt with the U in harbour. Harbour with out the U is the official current spelling according to the SA government. The spelling with the U reflects official SA Railways policy of using 'correct' spelling. I have an ammonia transfer plan of the station dating from the 1950's. This is spelt with the U. I also have plans of the railway yards etc from the 1920's and earlier also spelt with the U. Personal photographs of the station from the early 80's alos show the U in the name. If you drive around Victor Harbor you will find many older buildings with the U in the name. It seems the dropping of the U is a more modern phenomenon. The article wrongly suggests the addition of the U back into harbour is a modern idea, this is wrong. Ozdaren 11:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I suppose that the mapmaker referred to in the council snippet thought the place was pretty non-U Albatross2147 08:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Haha, that's quite amusing. I'd never heard of that before. I'm mostly non-U. Ozdaren 12:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
well most australians i know would use the U form anyway alos i am aussie too... so it doesn't matter lol —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Australian Jezza (talk • contribs) 14:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC).
I have to say I find the whole "Australians often don't use the U" bit quite unlikely. I never knew anyone who spelled words like "Color, Humor, Harbor" etc. 34 years in Australia and the only place I have ever seen such a thing is in the Australian Labor Party's name 70.189.213.149 15:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have seen it in a local newspaper but it always seemed very out of place to me. Jimp 00:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Print media has propensity for it, I would suggest. I once read a letter to a magazine questioning the practice, the magazine claimed it was a "style"

ALP was named by an American, King O'Malley with a zeal for spelling reform. A lot of American things have been adopted by media which are actually not consistent with Australian style and usage (eg the use of American dates). As for Victor Harbor and Outer Harbor, they are not examples of Australian English as they were actually named by Americans in the early days of the colony. Orderinchaos 23:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have quite a bit of research in government records from the late 1860s and I can tell you that some very well-educated British people used spellings like "labor" and "harbor" at that time. The idea that these spellings are "American" is a myth. Grant | Talk 01:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey fellas, did somebody accidentally move the Victor Harbo(u)r discussion into the References section? Im pretty sure it doesnt belong there. Strewth. --Andmark 16:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

I have a serious concern over this statement "In academia, as long as the spelling is consistent, the usage of various English variants is generally accepted".

As a Tertiary Lecturer at NMIT and representative Lecturer for LaTrobe University in China for 15 years, I would classify myself as an academic. My peers and I are in agreement that spelling is an indicator of the quality of foundation study that the student displays in their written submissions. At no time are reports accepted in any form other than Australian English. It is a requirement for submission and exists as a student advisory in their campus diary.

Would it be appropriate to remove the statement or amend it to reflect the trend away from Americanisation by academia?

Mark Vincent markv-com@nmit.vic.edu.au Andmark 01:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andmark (talk • contribs) 01:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Dubious unsourced claims are always fair game for deletion. According to Wikipedia policy,

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. ...

"Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material."

Go ahead I say. Jimp 02:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Change completed 31/5/2007. Thank you for the comments Jimp. - Mark Vincent Andmark 07:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Variation in pronunciation

There is an unusual variation in the way that Australians pronounce the word kilometre. Sports commentators and travel program reporters have adopted the awkward pronounciation with the stress on the second syllable (ki-LOM-etre) -, whilst the more articulate as well as the scientific community have adopted the the pronunciation (kill- O -metre) (consistent with SI units kilogram and kilowatt). Does this warrant inclusion in the main text ? Discussion invited

Cheers - Mark Vincent - Andmark 07:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"the more articulate"? The only people I've heard using "kill-oh-metre" are working class or foreign. Orderinchaos 22:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This issue is discussed in the article Kilometre. The original pronunciation is kill- O -metre; the ki-LOM-etre pronunciation apparently developed amongst some English speakers after the term was transplanted into English-speaking countries. Kilometre is not an English word, so evaluations of how "foreign" people say it seem pretty pointless. "The only people I've heard "-type evaluations are original research and are of no consequence to WP. Likewise evaluations of who is "articulate", and who isn't, seem very POV. Format 19:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

So then it is agreed that there is in fact a difference in the pronunciation amongst Australian English speakers. Since its introduction into Australia in the early 1970's and national changes to the road speed limits, the metric system and with it the word kilometre have become English words since at least that time, just as so many other words in the English language have been adopted from various sources. The fact that it exists currently as an Australian English word in common use with spoken variation is significant, not pointless. The fact that it represents a frequently used unit of the nation's system of measurement makes it even more significant. Andmark 00:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What I described as "pointless", was the evaluation made by Orderinchaos of how "foreign" people pronounce the word. I never said the discussion itself was pointless, and in fact largely was agreeing with you. However the Kilometre article seems to imply that the kil-o-metre pronunciation is neither restricted to, nor unique to Australia. If you want to add something in to the article to say that it is unique to Australia, you'll need to quote a credible external reference that clearly and explicitly corroborates that fact. Format 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I concede that it would not be easy to identify this variation as a distinctly Australian phenomenon, and perhaps more difficult to find a credible external etymological article to that effect. The casual search (with suitably dampened interest) begins. Thank you for the healthy debate nonetheless. Cheers Mark Vincent Andmark 12:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australian English?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but most of this article is complete tosh. There is no such thing as "Australian English." Most Australians speak standard English, identical to that spoken in London, apart from varying degrees of accent, a few minor variations in pronunciation and a small amount of local vocabulary (not nearly as much as Australians like to pretend, and much of it now falling out of use). Even these minor differences are now declining under the influence of global media. Indeed "Australian English" is much closer to standard English than are some of the varieties spoken in the UK, such as in Yorkshire, Tyneside or Liverpool. Intelligent Mr Toad 07:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the accent is closer to standard English (whatever that is — RP? Cockney? Estuary English? East Midlandsese?) than other regional/class varieties in the UK is irrelevant; there are significant differences in vocabulary between the UK and Australia, and even significant differences in vocab from one region to another within Australia (try the Australian Word Map).
Perhaps you should contact Oxford University Press Australia and the Australian National University, who have collaborated on the Oxford Dictionary of Australian English since 1976, not to mention the publishers of the Macquarie Dictionary (first published 1981), the standard reference for the Australian Public Service. (A British person would call that the "civil service". That's one example of a difference with British English. "Public servant" originated as a euphemism for convicts. True story.) They all seem to be unaware that they they are producing fiction.
Don't worry, many born and bred Australians are just as unaware of the unique nature of our form of English. Thanks for stopping by. Grant | Talk 17:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
All dialects in continual state of flux. Though the accent used by the actors in BBC sitcoms of the 1970s might not be too different to the Received Pronunciation of many Australian newreaders today, a listen to a sample of contemporary UK speakers reveals a large range in accents and slang ("I was just sat there waiting", "You div", "Dodgy barnet", "She's fit!"), much of which is very different to what is heard in Australia. Format 21:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  1. The usual definition of standard English is "English as spoken by an educated person in the Home Counties of England" - that is, spoken in that form, though not necessarily with that accent.
  2. Most Australians speak a form of English identical or nearly identical to that form.
  3. The fact that there is an industry devoted to the promotion of "Australian English" doesn't prove that such a thing exists.
  4. The range of slang used in the UK is not relevant.
  5. I am Australian. I am as fond of Australian speech as anyone, but to argue that it constitutes a distinct dialect of English is just false. Intelligent Mr Toad 22:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of numbering Mr Toad's points for ease of reference.
  1. I dispute that this is the "usual definition of standard English"—moreover I dispute the existance of any such thing.
  2. This is simply false. Australian English differs markedly from English as spoken by an educated person in the Home Counties of England.
  3. Nope; you're right there Mr Toad; no, it doesn't. However, there are reliable sources which do.
  4. The range of slang used in the UK is very relevant if you're arguing that there is no such thing as an Australian English distinct from your "standard English" ... unless you want to claim that educated people in the Home Counties of England don't use slang.
  5. You're Australian ... so am I. Now we're getting to that which is irrelevant.
Anyway, Toad, if this is what you reckon, why don't you put the article up for deletion? ... That should be fun. Jɪmp 03:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  1. What Jim said. You can even hear a multitude of dialects among BBC announcers these days. English English is the Tower of Babel compared to Australian English, which is remarkably uniform, considering the land mass it covers
  2. It's a well-known phenomenon that a child has some qualities which are unlike either parent and AusE has several "parents" among the British dialects, which makes its even more prone to "genetic drift". You might as well say that American English is merely an offshoot of 17th Century East Anglian and West Country dialects, which is pretty much how it started.
  3. Let me get this straight — OUP, ANU, Macquarie University and Uni of Sydney (which is where the Macq Dic now lives) are part of an evil conspiracy to concoct a fictitious variety of English, for the purposes of rorting Dictionary buyers of their hard-earned. What a dag I've been! the garbo's getting my copy of the Macquarie tomorrow.
  4. Not true. The slang used in both countries in highly relevant. Today's slang is tomorrow's standard English, by which I mean the standard form that is used in a particular region of the world and/or by a particular social class in a particular country. If an Australian Prime Minister used the terms smoko, furphy or grog, I think at least 75% of Australians would know exactly what he meant. I doubt that 0.75% of English people would.
  5. How can you be "fond of Australian speech", when you maintain it does not exist? Language is in the dynamics of writing and speech, not in some set of unchanging rules that refer to some set of ideals which has never had any material existence and never will. Grant | Talk 13:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unparliamentary language

Why does this article have so much on Unparliamentary language/bold phrases used in parliament. It is not like this sort of thing is unique to Australia. And shouldn't the article be about the everyday language used by normal people. Why so much time focusing on a small and exclusive part of society where all sorts of unusual jargon and etiquette is observed? It is not really relevant to Australia as a whole. Format 20:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The Australian Parliament does gain a lot of media attention, both local and international. Their creative use of words (Paul Keating is a good example) has often been the subject of headlines and their use of the world media has often become the public face of Australia here and overseas for good and bad reasons. Phrases, terms and vocabulary that they use and even invent will occasionally filter through to Australian society and into common use - hence the relevance to Australia on the whole I guess. Whether this justifies the amount of coverage that is presented here, that is a tough call. Cheers Mark Vincent - Andmark 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Your argument makes sense. Problem with the article is that all this is used to try and coroborate the articles claims that "For instance, spoken Australian English is generally more tolerant of offensive and/or abusive language than other variants [citation needed]. Many politicians are exponents of this style in Parliament. ..." I do not dispute that the section of Unparliamentary language exists, but to claim that it is connected with abusive language in general usage across Australia, by Australian is seriously dodgy. Format 11:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victorians and "castle"

In NSW, "castle" and derivatives are pronounced with the /aː/ whereas in Victoria, the word is commonly pronounced with the /æ/.

Was this written by someone from Sydney? I have rarely heard /æ/ used for "castle" in Victoria, and I live there. We are not all bogans. By the way, I see there is no reference, probably indicating the author made it up. RedRabbit1983 15:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about "castle" as such, but isn't it the case that Castlemaine (which I will be visiting next week, as it happens) is usually pronounced "Cæsselmain"? I have definitely heard Victorians refer to "Næw-cassel", which isn't the way that Novocastrians say it. Grant | Talk 06:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
"Cæssel" is said in Victoria, but not all Victorians say this. Those in the Castlemaine region apparently do, affecting the name of that town. In Melbourne the long-A "castle" pronunciation is very common. Like Albany in WA, the vowell sound used in one place name can not necesarily be extrapolated to apply all and every pronunciation of similar phenomes spoken in that state. Accent and pronunciation does not necesarily concur to state boundaries. Format 22:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Further to Format's point, the lack of consistency in the pronunciation would be enough to render the generalisation untrue. The lack of a credible external source for the information would also cast doubt on its accuracy. Change it if you want RedRabbit1983. Cheers Mark Vincent - Andmark 12:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Grant, my sister lives there, and neither she nor her friends and acquitances pronounce Castlemaine with a /æ/. I have been to Castlemaine many times, and not once have I heard it pronounced as stated in the article. Even among the working class, people living in the south-eastern and inner-city suburbs of Melbourne pronounce "castle" with a long "a". I therefore have good reason to doubt the accuracy of the statement. RedRabbit1983 08:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Just adding that I do not think I've ever actually heard anyone from Castlemaine say "Cæsselmain"? Another myth? In any event, it would need a credible external reference before making its way into the article. Format 09:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
In my experience, the 'cassel' pronunciation is usually from people with an Irish/Northern UK (Scouse, Mancs, Scots) background, or from people from a place with a significant Irish/NUK influence. For eg/ growing up in Canberra only my Queenslander rellies said 'cassel' but they were originally from the Mornington Peninsula; yet an acquaintance from rural Queensland (near Warwick) thought only people from NSW said cassel. The only common element we could identify was an Irish history (and the Irish/NUK pronunciation is generally cassel). Natgoo 20:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that people are forgetting that there are no documented regional accents as such, and we are talking about preferences and tendencies in pronunciation among speakers of General/Broad Australian in some areas, not hard and fast rules like "people in Victoria use x sound when pronouncing z".

Format, based on my visit there last week, I have to disagree about Castlemaine. My host said: "if you say "C/aː/sel-main, that's how they pick you as a blow-in". And while there are exceptions to every rule — possibly Victorian speakers of Cultivated Australian — when I was catching the train there, the announcer said "Cæsselmain". The ticket puncher said "Cæsselmain". Two fellow passengers, one from Bendigo and one from Kerang, said "Cæsselmain". People in the town said "Cæsselmain".

While the pronunciation of some words, using /æ/ is noticeable in Victoria, the strong preference for /æ/ in Tasmania is well-known; see Australian_English_phonology#Variation_between_.2Fa.CB.90.2F_and_.2F.C3.A6.2F (source: D. Crystal, 1995, Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, Cambridge University Press).

Further to this, my real name is Grant and one South Australian speaker of General Australian English actually said to me: "we say "gr/aː/nt in SA". This is also documented by Crystal.

At the same time, it isn't possible to generalise about the other states/territories.

I have adjusted the text to reflect Crystal's findings. Grant | Talk 07:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear. All I said was I do not think I've ever actually heard anyone from Castlemaine say "Cæsselmain"? Which means, "I've never spoken to anyone there in depth, and can't recall if/how they said the name of the town". You seem to assume I am claiming that I have heard people from there say the name of the town, and they said it different from how the article says. But I never claimed that. Format 07:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trend?

"Because of a backlash to the perceived "Americanisation" of Australian English, there is now a trend to reinsert the "u" in words such as harbour."

I'm sorry but what trend? I was ALWAYS taught to use the letter "u" in words such as "colour" or "harbour", as were my parents and my grandparents. If there was a trend to reinsert the letter "u" into words, surely it was many years ago, shortly after the apparent "Americanisation" of Australian English.

I think the line should be deleted or should read "Because of a backlash to the perceived "Americanisation" of Australian English, there was a trend to reinsert the "u" in words such as harbour." JWPJ 15:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If there even was a trend at all. There is no documented evidence of such a trend, and grammatical and spelling using Australian English has always been preferred in formal contexts. Any variation toward American spelling would be more out of a relaxing of the Australian English standards than a trend. Either way, current focus on Education [1] and literacy in schools initiatives have had the effect of tightening those standards. Go ahead and change it, I say. Cheers - Mark Vincent Andmark 00:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unique?

Article states: Nonetheless, even with technical borrowings, Australian retain a distinctive lexicon: for example, they use TV alongside telly as a shortening for television, SMS alongside text for text messaging, mobile or mobile phone instead of cell or cellphone for a mobile telephone, and lift instead of elevator. In many cases — as in telly versus TV and SMS versus text, freeway and motorway — regional, social and ethnic variation within Australia itself is an important factor in word usage.

However, how distinctive is this? Words like "lift", "telly" are from the UK. They are not distinctive Australian words. And even in the UK, both "telly" and "TV" are spoken of alongside each other. People in the UK and many other nations say "mobile" for "mobile phone" don't they. I didn't think "mobile" was "distinctive" or "Australian"?? I think the main thrust of this can stay, but maybe moved up to where article speaks of terms like "truck"? Format 20:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Format ('Formie'?) on this one, "bonnet" "boot" "lift" "telly" "TV" and "mobile" are not distinctly Australian. Nor is the ease with which we add "-ie" to make a nickname. Strewth, change it I say. Cheers Mark "Vinnie" Vincent - Andmark 13:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank . Changed. I particularly question the claim about SMS and the popular term for them in US as opposed to UK and Aust; apparently texting is not even popular or widespread in the US. (Lay odds with your bookie) Format 00:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
'Strewth' - this is not Australian either, from what I've heard. Strewth='struth=God's truth (a mild oath originating from England)
Given the above discussions, I wonder just how accurate this article is. RedRabbit1983 08:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have heard "strewth" in at least two UK films: documentary Dont Look Back (1966) where a journalist says it, and in fiction film A Canterbury Tale (1944). No, it wasn't said by an Australian either time! Format 11:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Australian English is unique for the specific combination of lexical borrowings (I think other newish colonial lexicons would have similar 'unique combinations', Canadian or Indian English, for eg), more than for the uniqueness of the words themselves. The truck drove into the lift, but I was watching the program 'Neighbours' whilst wearing my sneakers. Some words are British English, some US, all Australian. Natgoo 20:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
How about The truck drove into the lift, I didnt see it but. Andmark 02:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd have to say that runners is far more common than sneaker, when talking about running shoes, or casual shoes in general. This may just be in Victoria though —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.156.164 (talk) 06:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Mention of an American style twang in some East-coast city (maybe beach) suburbs.

There seems to be an increasing American-style "softer" Aussie accent. There's no mention of this in the article... All I have to say is: "like", "what's up with that"? What's the deal? Like, I have so many like good buddies from like the beach and stuff, and they are sooo into like surfing. It's sooo cool!

That's an exaggeration, but there does seem to be an American influence, a softer accent people are using that doesn't sound like Steve Irwin, Geoffrey Rush or Nicole Kidman.

You could be right but you'll need sources & a precise discription of what's going on (soft really doesn't mean anything—no offence intended, it just doesn't). Jɪmp 01:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you are referring to Valspeak. It's so totally cool! RedRabbit1983 14:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph

Can someone rewrite this - it is an eyesore:

Since the 1950s, increasing availability and importation of US English via pop culture, the mass media, such as books and magazines, television programs, computer software and the world wide web, have raised concerns of a new wave of Americanisation, though in a global context, such concerns are shared by users of other varieties of English: words such as freeway and truck have been naturalised so completely that few Australians would recognise them as borrowings.

Can we also minimise the emdash? It really gets on my nerves when overused. RedRabbit1983 04:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Australian English is a non-rhotic dialect. It is most similar to New Zealand English and bears some resemblance to accents from the South-East of England, particularly those of Cockney and Received Pronunciation. Like most dialects of English...

Is anyone else starting to feel sick? RedRabbit1983 11:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

What is specifically making you sick? Do you believe dialect and accent are used too often? Do you have any suggestion on what to use alternatively? GizzaDiscuss © 01:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Though I wasn't the original commenter, "concerns" has got to be the biggest, most nauseating weasel word of all time. Format 02:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
DaGizza, it is the use of "English", "dialect", and "accent" interchangeably that makes me sick; there is no, or little, concern for consistency or precision. RedRabbit1983 05:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Awkward

Only okay, you guys, and, in some circumstances, gee have persisted.

In some circumstances gee has persisted? This doesn't make any sense. RedRabbit1983 01:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of words by Australians

The first three paragraphs of Use of words by Australians look suspiciously like trivia. RedRabbit1983 14:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've cut them. RedRabbit1983 04:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

There is a widely held belief in Australia that "American spellings" are a modern intrusion, but the debate over spelling is much older and has little to do with the influence of North American English. For example, a pamphlet entitled The So-Called "American Spelling.", published in Sydney some time before 1900, argued that "there is no valid etymological reason for the preservation of the u in such words as honor, labor, etc." The pamphlet noted, correctly, that "the tendency of people in Australasia is to excise the u, and one of the Sydney morning papers habitually does this, while the other generally follows the older form".

The tone is inappropriate and negates even the pretence of impartiality. It is not good enough to hide behind a pamphlet. RedRabbit1983 15:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean; what is the passage "partial" to? Grant | Talk 12:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Read the last sentence again. If "noted" is not enough, "correctly" will point you in the right direction. RedRabbit1983 08:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One-sentence paragraphs

Does anyone have an opinion on the one-sentence paragraphs? RedRabbit1983 08:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I like them in some circumstances, especially in encylopedias. Grant | Talk 12:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Sure, sure. We should add some more, then. RedRabbit1983 08:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

This article is lacking an introduction. No, just one sentence doesn't count. RedRabbit1983 11:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not? Grant | Talk 12:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:LEAD RedRabbit1983 23:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is anyone still active?

Although I am glad that no one is around to disagree with me—who wouldn't be?—without other people's input the article will remain static. Sections needing attention are the introduction and Irish influences. How can I wake the dead? Is there a spellbook to invoke on talk pages? RedRabbit1983 14:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

---Red Rabbitt's plea is quite amusing. The spectacular and censored (see Archives) fact in this Article is that Spoken as opposed to Written English generated by native Australian whites (the Indigenous are a separate matter)is inferior ie inarticulate. There is a noticeable decade-long lack of ability to speak the native language. To realise this, leave the UK-USA-Canada-Aust. language ghetto, learn another language fluently and realise how even illiterates in other languages speak 1.faster 2. more appropriately to what they want to say than highly-placed Australian public speakers, eg politicians. Keating and Mick Young were exceptions to this rule, Ruddock is the norm. ABC radio announcers who get jobs with the ABC would not get in the door elsewhere. The origin of this inarticulacy is the historical and thus class-cultural origins of the Aust. white population: research in the UK would show the roots. The gap between the thought and the inarticulacy is bridged by alcohol or tranquilisers.

Although I agree that Australian English is generally quite bad, I find your rant very silly. First, it is lacking in information—for example, spoken Australian English is inferior to what exactly? Some of it is incomprehesible: for example, There is a noticeable decade-long lack of ability to speak the native language. How can the native population not speak its own language? Some of it is strange: [illiterates speak better than] highly-placed Australian public speakers, eg politicians. It is generally well-known that people in these positions, especially politicians, best serve their ends by distorting language—so what is the significance here? The origin of this inarticulacy is the historical and thus class-cultural origins of the Aust. white population... The gap between the thought and the inarticulacy is bridged by alcohol or tranquilisers. You would do better to look at education and the media. Please reserve the talk page for serious discussions, not this nonsense. I don't care to look at the archives if the above even resembles a sample of them. RedRabbit1983 11:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
"Strange" hardly covers this person's issues. Maybe its the same one who was saying that there is no such thing as AusE. Grant | Talk 12:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

1. @Red Rabbitt: The epithet "rant" is a pejorative applied in UK-Aus. Anglo culture for any position with which one disagrees. As the only other persons interested in Oz English appear to be the self-congratulatory back-scratching Ockers on this page,I rest my case. 2. I have already adequately defined my terms: "to speak well" = to speak fast/at reasonable speed and matching utterances to the underlying thought. Reasonable woudl be 50th percentile, or near-average for other national languages. But count the ums and ers in an Ocker sentence, revealing the big thought-verbalisation gap.Then put a stop watch on an average Vietnamese or Frenchman talking on an everyday topic he knows all about before clocking the Ocker. Words or phrases per unit time, know what I mean? Does Red Rabbitt have experience of non-English speakers at all? Unlikely. 3. Your comment about politicians is utterly misleading, as "distortion" as a category of Rhetoric is not related to my point, which is that of LOW ARTICULACY, as defined above.That John Howard distorts is irrelevant to his inarticulacy. 4. I see that it you believe in "generally quite bad Australian English " (your words, but which; oral or written or both? define your terms! I have nothing but praise for the level of English in Letters to the Editor of eg The Australian) So why should I turn to Education and the Media? People learn to talk and form speech habits BEFORE THEY GO TO SCHOOL OR CAN READ. Culture is passd down in families. Ever read Oz poet James McCauley: "..we took in distrust/like a coating behind the eye" ? 5. Since ca 1990 Settler Nationalism (Howard, etc) in Oz has been challenged by Indigenising Nationalism (Keating, etc.)But they have the resentful attitudes in this Wiki article in common. 6. No, I am not the person who was saying there is no such thing as Aus English. But it is true that when amateurs come out to play,lexis ie Aust. vocab. always gets overemphasised at the expense of the grammar similarities over and against the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.35.237.39 (talk) August 2, 2007

Ha. You complain about "ums and ers" in speech, and yet demonstrate in writing a multitude of sins, including SHOUTING, over-use of abbreviations, failure to use punctuation and a lack of gaps between words. Remove the rough-hewn 4x2 from your own eye before you complain about the specks in other people's eyes. Or is it counter-balancing the chip on your shoulder? And please sign your posts. Grant | Talk 04:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
91.35.237.39, please make your writing readable before troubling others with it. RedRabbit 12:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

@Red Rabbitt and Grant: the pair of you are clearly seafood lovers given the number of red herrings you introduce. I have stated a case in regard of low articulacy, ie low spoken word rate per unit time plus low ability, by international comparison, in formulating spoken utterances on everyday topics familiar to the speaker. As neither of you apparently know diddly-squat of any other language than English, more or less, and appear not ever to have left Oz to experience native speakers of other tongues, , there is a prima facie case for saying that you are de facto incompetent to judge upon this matter. Not to mention that you do not even try. In closing, it is fascinating that Red Rabbitt has suddenly fallen silent on his own words: "generally quite bad Australian English." So what do you think of those words, Grant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.35.244.83 (talk) August 2, 2007

Not much. You are clearly the expert on red herrings. Please come up with some concrete suggestions on how the page can be improved, rather than half-baked, unverified and probably unverifiable theories about AusE speakers. And please sign your posts. Grant | Talk 14:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, whether or not I am "incompetent to judge on this matter", the talk page is not the place to pontificate on Australian English. There is nothing in your posts of possible benefit to the article. Please read over WP:TALK before spewing out another rant. RedRabbit 16:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Back ... to ... Red ... Rabbitt's ... initial ... point ... ... ... (sorry ... for ... speaking ... so ... slowly ... ... I'm ... only ... an ... Aussie ... ... ma~te). ... ... I ... s'pose ... you ... could ... look ... through ... the ... page ... history ... y'know ... and ... mate ... look ... at ... this ... talk ... page ... and ... its ... archives ... and ... do ... the ... same ... for ... related ... pages ... and ... thereby ... (Can ... an ... Aussie ... use ... such ... a ... swanky ... word ... as ... thereby?) ... ... yeah, ... mate, ... where ... was ... I ... ... Oh! ... Yeah, ... thereby ... gather ... list ... of ... users ... who've ... constructively ... contributed ... in ... the ... past ... and ... try ... drum ... interest ... up ... by ... leaving ... notes ... on ... their ... talk ... pages. Jɪmp 18:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Slow down. I can't understand you. RedRabbit 14:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
S...o...r...r...y ... ... ... ... m...a...t...e..., I...'...m ... ... ... ... f...r...o...m ... ... ... ... t....h...e ... ... ... ... b...i...g ... ... ... ... s...m...o...k...e.... ... ... ... ... Jɪmp 16:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Nw spk rly qkly so tht anonms persn cn undastnd yu. Quik quik quik! Ok, curtain call for the humourists; this joke is over now. RedRabbit

[edit] Most Australians unable to say "drawing"

How do I access the Phonetic alphabet for a Wikipedia edit? I would like to put in a quick note about the inability of most Australians (Including nearly all newsreaders and educated adults) to pronounce "Drawing". Nearly every Australian inserts an extra 'r' and the word comes out as "Dro-Ring", "The Dro-Rings of Vincent Van Goch", "pass me a Dro-Ring pin" (thumbtack) etc. I think this is an interesting foible and whilst not a major issue I'd like to illustrate the point with some proper phonetic spelling. (I'm originally English, we and Americans say "Draw-Wing" with a fairly weak W. When I try to get my Aussie friends and family to deliberately say "Draw" followed by "Wing" they say, "yes Draw Wing, that's what I said ... Dro-Ring" and just cant 'see' that they are putting an extra R in the word!!. 124.186.19.244 01:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Sorry forgot to log in, above comments from MichaelGG 01:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a list of special IPA characters below the edit box. Make sure you enclose special characters in {{IPA}} or a similar template (you could use <span> but that's a whole other story).
What you're talking about is the intrusive-r ... no, it's not any sort of inability, it's just how we talk. This feature is not explicitely noted but since it is not a universal feature of non-rhotic accents, it probably should be. However, the place for it would not be here but at Australian English phonology#Consonants.
Jɪmp 01:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I have added the statement "Linking- and intrusive-R are also features of Australian English." to the aforementioned section. Jɪmp 01:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed this myself. It's kind of like the way English people say "yez" and "uz" instead of yes and us, and usually pronounce Michelle as "mee-shell" (to rhyme with sea shell) ;-) Grant | Talk 02:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Jimp, on further reflection you also get the intrusive r in announcements on the tv such as the show "Law and Order" which comes out as "Coming up next the new season of Law Ran Order".--MichaelGG 11:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Or "Laura Norder." Why, the eye dear of it... ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 21:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I just attempted to pronounce drawing in the way you implied and find that it soundsout of place in the Australian lexicon. I also think that "Most Australians unable to say "drawing" is a racist comment! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.156.164 (talk) 06:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute - this is not documented, referenced or given citation. It therefore constitutes original research.
According to Wikipedia policy, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. ...
"Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material." --Andmark 16:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs improvement

First of all, the silly legend that Australian is similar to (or derived from) Cockney should be demolished. Australian is a unique accent that is most definitely unlike Cockney, Irish, or any other English-based language.

I am an Australian, and get the impression that much of this article has been written by Americans or Britishers, who have an agenda to minimize the uniqueness of Australian. Please reference the many fine research articles written by Australian experts in this field.

It would also be good to have a proper section on Australian vocabulary; we use many words that other English-speakers don't use or understand. Logicman1966 02:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Australian is similar to Cockney (and at least partially derived from Cockney). Don't you know your own history? That's not a "silly story." You, like countless others on Wikipedia, obviously have the agenda of making your dialect sound more unique than it really is. My "agenda" is to make the article as accurate as possible. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you both cite your sources instead of posting some rant about how good or bad the language/dialect is?
I've heard that the Australian accent makes vowels flat, unlike the Cockney accent, or any other English accent. There is probably some influence from Cockney, as well as from other English dialects. English actors sometimes incorrectly make the Australian accent sound Cockney, which sounds very fake.
As to uniqueness or lack of it, I'm undecided and don't care.
I'll leave it to you two to find and to insert sources. RedRabbit (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything about how good or bad the Australian dialect is. How can you not notice the similarities between your own dialect and Cockney? I guess that is easier for non-Aussies. Don't you guys know that you used to be a penal colony for the British Empire? A lot of the English criminals back in the eighteenth century happened to have Cockney accents. So it only makes sense that the Australian dialect would have some Cockney influence. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

While (to an untrained ear) there may be a few vowel sounds somewhat similar in both Australian and Cockney, the two dialects have many more differences than similarities. For example, the following defining traits of Cockney are completely absent from Australian - (1) dropping the 'H' (2) 'T' glottalisation (3) missing dental fricatives. And of course, Australians do not use rhyming slang.... The old 'used to be a penal colony for the British Empire' story is so cliche now, give it a rest mate. Of course we all know it, however its importance and relevance is MUCH less so than you might like to believe. It sounds like you need to read up on the 200+ years of Australian history since colonization. Logicman1966 (talk) 06:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Err, what?! I agree about glottals and dental frictaives. But dropping aitches is very common in Broad AusE, as is rhyming slang!
As I said above, I suspect that 19th century Broad AusE speakers were a lot more like Cockney. Possibly the best example of this is C. J. Dennis's The Sentimental Bloke (1915), which features phonetic representations of working class Melbourne dialogue, e.g.
This ev'nin' I was sittin' wiv Doreen,
Peaceful an' 'appy wiv the day's work done,
Watchin', be'ind the orchard's bonzer green,
The flamin' wonder of the settin' sun.
Note that even the /h/ in "behind" is dropped. Dennis was born and bred in South Australia.
There are so many examples of rhyming slang that the whole practice used to be known in America as "Australian rhyming slang"! It seems that even pommy is rhyming slang. There are also new examples all the time, like "Barry Crocker" for shocker. Grant | Talk 06:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The word cliché is quite cliché as well. Try "hackneyed" (a word that probably originated from a borough of London where Cockney is spoken funny enough). I don't care about Australian history. I just thought I would mention that. I wouldn't ever bother to read up on it. Anyway, I am way more concerned about the vowels than the consonants in this case. I am well aware that Australian English doesn't have dropped "h's", glottal stops, and missing dental fricatives (you forgot to mention that L-vocalisation is not as common in Aussie English as it is in Cockney). That's a moot issue for me. The point is that Cockney and Australian English are far more similar to one another than Cockney and Canadian English are, for example. Cockney and Aussie English use the same diphthong in words like "day" and "joy", the same vowel sound in words like "thought" and "boot", and a similar diphthong in words like "price"; not to mention both are non-rhotic dialects (even though I said I didn't care about consonants). Both possess a linking and intrusive R as well. Both distinguish between "cot" and "caught" on one hand, and "father" and "bother" on another. Both have the Trap-bath split and the Bad-lad split. Both have far more pre-r distinctions than some dialects of English (particularly those in North America). The lexicon (including slang of course) of Australian English is far more similar to that of English English than the lexicon of Canadian English is to that of many forms of English English. Maybe now you understand how it is easier for a resident of North America to appreciate the similarity between Cockney (and other dialects of English English) and Australian English than someone from Mile End or Perth. Please don't insult my ears by calling them "untrained". By the way, thank you, Grant. P.S. Who the hell says "Britisher" anyway? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One Australian English or many?

Before some pompous fool (there seems to be a few of them watching this talk page) pounces on me as an easy target, let me first say I know little about this subject. However I have heard it said that, uniquely among English speaking countries, the English spoken in any particular part of Australia is the same as the English spoken anywhere else in the country. That Australian English is very standard right across the country. I have never been to America or the United Kingdom but I understand that both the UK and US are very different in this regard. If the phenomenon I refer to does really exist I would love to see a section in the article that refers to this phenomenon (and explains it) of great uniformity in the Australian English. Ryan Albrey (talk) 04:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is correct that Australian is much more uniform than other English languages (eg. the English spoken in US or UK). This is especially noteworthy because Australia is so large geographically. There are however subtle differences, in both vocabulary and accent, between different parts of the country. Logicman1966 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this section- Australian English#Varieties_of_Australian_English- cover what you are talking about? Or does it need some work to make it clearer? --DrHacky (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh yah! I didn't see that on my first read through! Thanks. However, do linguistic experts have any theories as to why this is the case in Australia and not the case in Northern America or the UK? Why is it that someone from inner city Brisbane sounds the same as someone who is otherwise of the same demographic but from inner city Perth? The same comparison between New Jersey and Boston I am sure would be very different. Or am I wrong? Ryan Albrey (talk) 09:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Condescending and Quaint.

I found this article quaint because it appears to be based on many long superceded arguments and misconceptions, for example the suggestion that there are roots in Cockney. Unfortunately I am at present unable to reference the following but I have heard several 'experts' make a highly convincing argument that realistically it is only the 'rhyming slang' aspect of Australia's cunning linguistics that underscores this dubious argument. Moreover, it may well have been similar needs that created this parallel rather than 'dialectic transportation'. Thus having come about simply as an effective tool when these cultures found themselves in need of 'Coded Speech' between like minded groups (ie. Barrowmen, stall holders and such in front of the establishment of London and convicts in front of their guards in the colonies). Just a thought but perhaps a very elegant one. Also I'd like to mention how important this article is to any true blue Aussie and how it desperately needs a lot more effort put into it. At best this could be called an early draft I feel. Yeah, no, but... Outofthewoods, who couldn't log in because I wrote this via my Nokia N95 and Wiki won't let me whenever I access this site from my phone. Grrr! All other sites I access will, why not the wonderful Wiki? My all time favourite site- I used to Google- now I just Wiki! PS. No one so far has mentioned the 'Rising Terminal 'BUT as in displaying severe insecurity by a person about what they themselves have just uttered. Now THAT is uniquely strayn! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.145.148.3 (talk) 19:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Like, Ride, Side, etc.

How does the vowel sound in words like "like", "ride", and "side" in Australian English differ from the sound of those words in Cockney or Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{Aust Beer Glass}}

The template is up for deletion on the grounds that it contains errors and it is not referenced. Can it be saved? Jɪmp 15:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Varieties of Australian English

Varieties of Australian English has been nominated for deletion on the grounds of being mostly original research. Do we have any sources for the claims made in the article (including the claims about who speaks what)? Of that which we can support is there enough to warrent an article? Jɪmp 00:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the varieties should be better explained. I would be interested to know more about them. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 16:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common Australian phrases

Would a table of common Australian phrases benefit this article? ie: Raw Prawn = Bullshit, Spit the Dummy = get upset at something

I can see the validity of both arguments that Australian English is "complete tosh", and yet it is distinct from the Queens English in many ways. It would be nice if the article would reflect that. There is also some deep academic bullshit in here that I cannot understand, such as "/dj/, /sj/ and /tj/ into /dʒ/, /ʃ/ and /tʃ/." It must mean something, but I don't think it belongs.

Mr. Welsh (talk) 15:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Common words/expressions, that's what wikt:Appendix:Australian English vocabulary is for. That deep academic bullshit is the International Phonetic Alphabet. The /j/ stands for the sound of "y" in "you"; the /ʒ/ is the "ge" sound in "beige" (/dʒ/ is the "j" sound in "jump"); the /ʃ/ is the "sh" sound in "fish" (/tʃ/ is the "ch" sound in "chips"); the /ʉː/ is the "oo" sound in "roo"; and /s/, /d/ and /t/ are as they usually are. The section talks about how certain sounds join with the "y" sound to produce something different. Say "lightyear", compare it to "lie-cheer". Do you pronounce "jew" and "due" the same? It's an important aspect of the accent, it does belong. Of course, we could adjust how it's expressed if need be. JIMp talk·cont 17:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Would you find the phonetic alphabet in standard encyclopedias? Mr. Welsh (talk) 12:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't have one at hand but it is common in standard non-US dictionaries e.g. Cambridge. Have you got a better method in mind? JIMp talk·cont 23:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phonetic Realizations of Australian Vowels

Here is something I found from here:

This survey of the speech habits of young Australians has sometimes been described as the outstanding achievement of impressionistic phonetics in Australia and undoubtedly, in some respects at least, it deserves this description. It had by far the largest number of subjects (>7000) of any impressionistic study (or any other type for that matter) of AE and drew these samples from six states. The subjects included both males (47%) and females (53%) and were each identified using a wide range of social parameters. All of the speech parameters were assessed impressionistically by the authors and included variety of AE spoken (ie. Broad, General or Cultivated), use of weak consonants, elision or assimilation, type of intonation (normal or restricted), speed of speech and nasality (normal, pervasive or contextual). The only other impressionistic study of AE to go to the trouble of collecting samples several states and to indicate the frequencies of occurrence was McBurney. The survey was a collection of tape recordings by teachers from the 309 participating schools, and because of this, both the quality of the recording and the quality of the interview varied greatly.

One of the analysis methods was the analysis of the six vowels identified by Mitchell (1946) as being the main indicators of AE variety being used. For the most part subjects used all the sounds in a particular set (i, ii, or iii), although a significant minority used vowels from more than one set. (see table 2)

Set Name /iː/ /ʉː/ /æɪ/ /əʉ/ /ɑe/ /æɔ/  % of sample
i) Cultivated [ɪi] [ʊu] [ɛɪ/eɪ] [oʊ] [aɪ] [aʊ] 11%
ii) General [əɪ] [əʊ] [ʌɪ] [ʌʊ] [ɒɪ] [æʊ] 55%
iii) Broad [ə̞ˑɪ] [ə̞ˑʊ] [ʌ̘ˑɪ] [ʌ̘ˑʊ] [ɒˑɪ] [æ̝ˑʊ] 34%

I like this, because it tells us what the difference really is between the three Australian varieties. I would like to know what other people think about this. My question is, when they say [ʌ], do they really mean [ɐ]? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

What this tells me is that the way many Australians pronounce do sounds identical to doe pronounced by many British people. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)