Talk:Australia-Indonesia relations

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[edit] Lack of Picture Content

Why no picture content?

Articles don't progress to good or feature status without them. Many feature articles have a picture or pictures in each section.

I have added pictures (State Symbols of respective countries) and they have been taken down. The same pictures appear on many Aus and Indo-related pages, starting with Australia, Indonesia etc..

User Merbabu most recently took them from the 'treaty relations' section. Treaty relations occur between Governments therefore such pics are appropriate. Tags on such pictures add to encyclopaedic content.

The best pictures should appear at top of page to grab attention and generate interest.

I am preparing a map of Indo-Aus region for top of page and my plan of design would be to place Aus-related pictures down left side balanced by Indo-related on right side.

Comments welcome.

Issue of picture removals listed for third opinion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements DavidYork71 04:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Initially i shrank rather than removed the oversized pictures and noted in my edit summary that i wasn't sure their inclusion was warranted. Ie, they are clearly put there for decorative rather than informative purposes. A picture of a country's coat of arms does NOT inform about it's bilateral relations with another.
Furthermore, with respect to your comments at the Third Opinion board, i was NOT the first person to remove the pics. Thus, you have your third opinion. Better form, in my opinion, would to have notified myself if you are going to mention me as being in a dispute.Merbabu 05:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty Relations

this terminology is broader than 'treaties', additional to treaties in for it encompases engagements to reach agreements which did not result in agreements or which resulted in agreements which did not go into force and stale treaties etc


[edit] Earlier comments

I apologise if there is alredy an article that covers this, and if there is, please delete this one.

I also apologise for any disputed neautrality. I personally believe that the neautrality should be disputed and i intend to rectify the situation within the next three days. by thursday this article will be a fully formed wikipedia article with refrences, much more information, much more relevant information and a more neautral outlook. For now i simply wanted to get a few facts in and start the article.

I was also wondering if there was an article on how the climatic and geographical factors of indonesia affect Australias climate and more specificaly Perths climate.

AC Boy 03:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] next comment

This article is currently really, really shallow. It certainly glosses over the difficult relationship between that began during WW2 when Sukarno was installed as a Japanese puppet ruler and then decided to side with the Soviet Union after the war ended. The article should cover the aforementioned along with:

  • The Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation
  • The West's fear (Australia's in particular) that a Soviet backed Indonesia could cause further conflict in the region
  • Suharto's bloody rise to power and the Free World's support thereof
  • Implicit and later explicit support from the Australian government of Indonesia's decision to annex East Timor
  • Suharto's fall from power, which lead to Australia's UN backed campaign to liberate East Timor following the Indonesian military's ruthless occupation and destruction of it's infrastructure. Make sure to explain the deep mutual resentment that developed in the political cultures of both nations.
  • Several other incidents that have harmed or helped relations including the Bali Bombings and subsequent criminal prosecutions, Chapelle Corby, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's rise to power (he was the only major candidate who refused to play the anti-Australian demagogue in order to win votes), the Tsunami and Australia's unprecedented billion dollar aid package.

Aussie Jim 02:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments removed from article

These I've removed from article. They appear to be planning comments which have some use. Although I think the POV/emotive language should be toned down, even for talk page...

[edit] Strengths

  • Military cooperation
  • Joint participation in peacekeeping ops
  • Cultural and educational exchange
  • How many Indo come to Aus to study?
  • Aus sold out Timor for the benefit of Indo in '75
  • Aus resisted precicipitate action when shit hit the fan in Timor in '99
  • Tsunami appeal benificence '04/'05

[edit] Challenges

  • Aus grants humanitarian protection to West Papuan splittists
  • The fisheries line is still not finally delimited.
  • There's no prisoner transfer agreement.
  • ?Differences about recognition of Taiwan?
  • Indonesian bigamous marriages not recognised in Australia?, see Marriage Act
  • Aus public perceptions of Indo, and vice versa. Variance with Govt pronouncements?
  • Aus mistrust(misunderstanding) of Indo legal system
  • Indo mistrust of Aus motives in Timor, Irian.
  • Indo not so deeply sucked into alliance with US. Not in Afghan, not in Iraq.
  • Difference of language. Is Indo a language taken up in Aus schools?
  • Indo don't play cricket, rugby, AFL. Aus don't play seepak takraw. Soccer is the answer!
  • Small size of Indo community in Aus. Many more Lebs.
  • Aus colonisation of Bali
  • Aus broadcasting to Indo, ABC tried. How can Indo appreciate brilliance of Roy and HG?
  • Love to see an Indonesian version of Club Buggery!
  • What Indo stories make it to press in Aus? All about Schapelle Corby, drug *models and the Bali Nine. Amrozi too
  • Huntington thesis. Clash of civilisation. Aus/Indo 'civilisational fault line'

--Merbabu 04:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A mess

This article's sections are all over the place. There appears to be no logical order. I don't know where to start.Merbabu 11:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Wiki links, ie to Australia & Indonesia only need to be made once, the first time the word appears only. Not every time it appears. This is wikipedia standard. Merbabu 01:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relations during the Indonesian National Revolution

This Indonesian Revolution section, for example, reads like a list. Needs more prose/paragraph style - not just a recitation of dates. ie, this is an article, not a timeline. regards --Merbabu 03:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original Content Plagiarised

I've discovered that the original content of this page was lifted from propaganda of the Australian Dept of Foreign Affairs at this site: http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/indonesia/indonesia_brief.html (under Australia-Indonesia Relations) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DavidYork71 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Picture Request

i have made a copyright release request to the Australian national archives for a picture of John Gorton and Suharton from 1968 to accompany this article.DavidYork71 06:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Great initiative! Merbabu 07:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Travel Advisory for Indonesians Coming to Australia

Who can provide information here about what the Indonesia embassy says about travel to Australia, to balance the Australian embassy warning against travel to Indonesia. Firstly i dont know where to find it and if it exists, second it may be -probably is- in Bahasa languageDavidYork71 07:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm now finished with working on this article but still would like to find some information with currency about a. indonesian public opinions surveys re opinions of Australia and Australians b. similar Aus surveys re Indo and Indonesians c. facts (size, composition) about the Indo community residing in Australia, and vice versa d. reference for the statistic claiming the number of Indonesian students in Australia e. what's the scale of Indonesian news coverage of Aus and vice versa, commitment to coverage by national broadcasters

This picture of Gorton/Suharto is now up. That was around the time of signing the 'Cultural Agreement'.

There could be further development about how the events of 1975 in Timor affected things. There were certainly street protests in Australia cities. The Aus govt was twofaced and out of step with the public there because Whitlam assured Suharto that he wouldn't move against Indonesia whatever they did while he came out in public deploring the violence and saying the Timorese should have a vote. Whitlam scorned the idea of Timor's independence.

Another low point was 1965 when Sukarno was playing racial politics with his speeches against foreigners, colonialism, the West, etc. ... failed ploy to distract Indonesian people from domestic crisis.

Can't be said that the relationship's 'good' when Indonesia is such an unsafe place for Australians to visit. Not a good outcome from past aid commitments and all the scheme of cooperation arrangements between the two govts, IMO. At least Indonesians in Australia aren't tageted for kidnaps and terrorist assault because of their foreign appearance. Once again love to know what the Indo govt travel advisory says.

Thanks to Merbabu and others for editing collaboration.DavidYork71 07:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the idiotic commentary suggesting that it was unsafe for Australians to travel there and that this showed Indonesia was ungrateful for Australia's aid contribution. Oh, the Indonesian language is known as 'Indonesian'. The Indonesian word bahasa means 'language'. Merbabu 09:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The respective degree of contributions to ad hoc disaster relief appeals affecting either country is relevant to assessing the degree of mutuality in this relationship. Also the issue of violence and victimisation affecting those who visit either way has some relevance to describing an aspect of it - which is why I've asked for the official Indonesian view on the safety of its nationals travelling to Australia. If it's known to you, please add in. The conclusion that Indonesia is especially unsafe for Australians (even after the $Bns commitments under AIP etc) is coming from the most recent DFAT travel advisory which does not seem to regard any part of Indonesia as safe for Australian visitors. Compare it with the advisory for New Zealand (http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/New_Zealand) Another aspect is threats and bombing attacks against the AUST Embassy, Jakarta; while I've not heard of similar behaviour by Australians against the INDO Embassy, Canberra. All is relevant and should be included for building a comprehensive picture to give encylopaedic content to the article. DavidYork71 12:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've commented in the edit summaries why I've removed your WP:OR that Indonesia doesn't reciprocate aid. Why don't you think Indonesia reciprocates? It's govt is bankrupt, and its GDP/capita is a small fraction of AUstralias - once again, rich country vs. poor country. Why would Indonesia give money to AUstralia farmers? That's hilarious and your own WP:OR. Furthermore, don't contrast Australian aid donations and perceived danger to Australians from terrorism unless you can find a source. It's your own opinion and thus invalid for wikipedia. It's not very difficult, really. the DFAT warnings are referenced, but they are a primary source. Merbabu 12:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent suppression of travel safety information

User Merbabu has adopted a consistent policy of expurgating references to murders of 90-odd Australians in Indonesia in recent years from this article. These were widely reported occurrences and have some reference to the subject matter. He has claimed 'original research', and 'unreferenced'.

The same user previously has made abusive commentary in edit summaries, arising from his judgement about my presentation of information from DFAT

I have reintroduced this material with my original reference, in the introductory section. My original references were to other wiki articles, and those reference were removed by MichaelJLowe in this edit [1]

It was also claimed that the intro statement of the nature 'deepening Australian AID commitment to Indonesia in recent years', put by me, was 'unreferenced'. I had thought to tag additional references there was superfluous because the ensuing content of article (in the section 'Australian Aid etc' with many references added by me) clearly provides the foundation for that characterisation. For sake of consensus I now have bracketed a hyperlink from that statement to the 'Australian Aid..' section.

The remarks about travel safety have always been referenced (with reference tag and/or quotes) to the Feb 2007 Indonesia DFAT travel advisory. This remains so. DavidYork71 16:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, this is the first time you have actually responded to repeated reasoning in edit summaries, article discussion and your own talk page. That is way too late given that you have reinserted the info over and over.
Secondly, i have not once removed the referenced travel advisory. Rather I have removed your original research interpretations of it and your own opinionated connection of it to Australian aid. Also, you opinion that Indonesia should provide aid to Australian farmers.
As I have explained every time, this you still fail to provide one single reference for the connections. Once again, i put it to you that such a connection is your own original research, and that the quotes such as the following have no place in an encyclopedia: Despite Australia's significant unreciprocated contributions of development aid to Indonesia over a lengthy period and foreshadowed into the future, Indonesia remains an unsafe environment for Australians This is your own unproven connections and only the Australian govt's assertion that it is unsafe. We cannot report that "it is unsafe" although you may say "the Australian govt advises it is unsafe because A, B, C, etc". Despite your I have not removed referenced material about AUstralia govt warnings. I will continue to remove any statement as "Indonesia is unsafe for AUstralians." This is typical: [2].
I really don't see what is so difficult about this. I have made a number of suggestions on your now archived talk page. In my opinion you have some fundamental misunderstandings about what a wikipedia article is about. It is not about advancing a position - i've tried to explain this and it is severely frustrating to have to remove the same original research and blatant POV again and again. And I have continually been editing poor writing style. I will now be seeking admins to monitor this issue as it has gone on long enough. Merbabu 06:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a few examples of your edits that have been edited by myself and others - I have removed/edited countless more. After 20 times and yourself making no effort to reply/discuss, i think I am entitled to be just honest and label them rubbish - that is far from 'abusive'... [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] Merbabu 06:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments on your recently archived talk page. Merbabu 07:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Australian visit to Indonesia

Something for the article? Article from the Sydney Morning Herald: [12] --Merbabu 14:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] East Timor section

This section just seems to be a narration of events in 1999 that are amply discussed in other articles. I suggest that such rehashing is not the point of this article, rather this section should be developed to discuss the events' effects in Australia-Indonesia relations - the topic of this page. Ie, how did these events affect Aust-Indon relations? Merbabu 04:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I removed [13] this from the article as it was a reference to Osama bin Laden's threats to Australia, the relevancy to this article I am not convinced. The source however, does seem to contain good info on other aspects Aust-Indon relations and cooperation. Including the Bali bombing investigation. --Merbabu 04:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fact checking

The Public Opinion section has been a subject of edit waring because it contains POV statements with loaded terms (unambigously, anti-Australians, etc.). Yes, the section has two sources:

  1. 'Representative views: Mass and elite opinion on Austrlian security' McAllister, Ian (2005). Australian Strategic Policy Institute Report, Canberra, 15 June.
  2. 'Breach of Trust', interview of Imron Cotan by Paul Daley, The Bulletin, 14 April 2004

However they are inaccessible thus I cannot verified them. Therefore, I requested fact checking to whoever has the source to mantain citing consistencies and to avoid misinterpretation. — Indon (reply) — 07:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Indon. I've actually got the first report open now. it's a shame the editor adding it didn't check the facts or provide the link. I'll get back to you. In the mean time, i think we should put it back until we've verified it. Sorry. i've reverted it in the past because of it's creation by a sock puppet of a banned user. Hang on. Merbabu 13:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Link to the first report (not provided by editor): [14] Merbabu 13:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, i thought Indon had removed it - i was wrong - hence my suggestion to put it back. I modified my comment above accordingly.
It would be nice if we could get verification on the second ref. Also, the interpretation of the first reference needs to be checked, and possibly re-written.[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] 01:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Here's the next best thing - an academic paper which references the material: [15] (Caniago 02:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC))

(unindent) Okay, thanks guys. Since I'm neither in Indonesia nor Australia, I have to read those papers first. Just to remind that this topic (opinions) has dynamic in nature. So to put neutrality, the dates or years of any public opinion expressed must be mentioned (the similar case of statistics/figures). For instances, "Australian voters unambiguously identify Indonesia as the greatest security threat to their country and that is a view that has been steadily strengthening since the mid-1970s." is not neutral because voters' opinions change throughout the time. — Indon (reply) — 07:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

agreed, it is needs to be re-written from the original source. Maybe i can try this weekend. Maybe. :) Merbabu 09:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The Bulletinarticle

[16] I found the article. Interesting - there's so much to that article than what was quoted. More work. Merbabu 10:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lowy Institute sources

The Lowy Institute, an Australian based international policy think tank has written several publications (available free on PDF) on Australian-Indonesian relations. Perhaps someone with more time could use them for this article.


Australia and Indonesia: current problems, future prospects

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=668


Australia and Indonesia compared

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=471


Pitfalls of Papua: understanding the conflict and its place in Australia-Indonesia relations

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=475


Dealing with a Democratic Indonesia

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=574


Australia-Indonesia Roundtable on the future of Australia-Indonesia relations

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=430


Staying the course: AusAID's governance performance in Indonesia

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=257 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.191.74 (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)