Talk:Auschwitz concentration camp/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Mark Stafford

The last sentence in the "Auschwitz III and satellite camps"-section contained the text "These camps were closed due to great work by the Allies, but mainly, the hard a tighless work of Mark Stafford.". After trying to figure out what this meant (assuming 'hard and tireless work..') I tried to find references to this Mark Stafford and why he was to thank for this work. I could however not find anything of interest at all, and just clipped that part out of the text. If someone has more clues to this, please inform me and correct the sentence. Gamkiller 09:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Upside down B

I know that in the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C., they make a point of mentioning that the "b" in the Auschwitz sign is written upside down (i.e. in the font used, the top loop of the B should be smaller, but in actuallity it was larger). It is a noticeable feature of the sign once pointed out, and the explanation given is that when the sign was cast, the B was purposely made upside down to sort of nix the notion that "work makes free"...sort of like crossing your fingers when you promise something. Here (www.deathcamps.org/websites/pic/big1401%20KL%20Auschwitz%20Work%20makes%20free%20Arbeit%20macht%20frei%201945.jpg) is an image of the sign, it's pretty easy to pick out the "upside down b." This always sticks in my mind when i think of the gate, but i'm not sure if its really all that notable, or even where to put it on in the article. Thoughts? jfg284 you were saying? 16:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but it seems rather far-fetched to me. It's probably just a simple mistake. I didn't hear any reference to it when I visited Auschwitz a few years ago. --Valentinian 00:56, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This sounds very much like a story invented to explain the observation. We should require a citation to a primary source (not just a repetition of the story) before accepting it as true. --Zero


More than fair; that's why i proposed the question here first rather than just drop it in the article. I figured citing "Yea, but I'm pretty sure I read it in the museum 4 years ago" wouldn't fly as a reference.--jfg284 you were saying? 21:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


In German a double 's' is written as 'ß', meaning a sharp 's' sound. It appears the sign maker modified a 'ß' to look like a 'B' to me. I can't handwrite it here to show how the letter looks like an upside down 'B' though. I lived in Germany for a few years. Malice1982

Random, Unspecified stuff

While I think that this article is great (in most respects), it is woefully deficient in relation to the number of SS guards that worked at the camp. The number of Jews, Roma & Sinti, Homosexuals, who passed through the camp (and either were murdered or survived) is related in great detail.

However, there is no mention at all (that I could see regarding how many SS guards worked at the camp). Does anyone know this fact????

According to local information, about 6,000.--Anthony.bradbury 21:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a picture which I feel would be relevant to this topic. It can be found here: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Illustrious86/99d52482.jpg. It is the memorial stone erected in memory of those inmates killed during the unsuccessful revolt of Sonderkommando's in 1944. For copyright purposes it was taken by me (James Jones) in March 2005, and I don't have any reservations about putting it into the public domain. I am not a registered user of wikipedia, and if anyone (with a little more technical expertise than I) wants to add my picture, I would be greatful.

How come no mention is made that the original figure put forth as the death toll was 4 million and has now been reduced to about 1.5 million thanks in no small part to the "revisionists"? Seems strange to me that in the last paragraph you seem to attempt to disparage the people whom you should be crediting.

The "original", or earliest, number was actually eight or nine million.[1] (Note esp one item w/i: ‘1,000,000 Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers…In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further…’) Kwantus 16:58, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)
Um, you trust those vague "citations"? Also, I don't think a movie made in 1955 would count as a source for the "original" or "earliest" number. In any event, since the Auschwitz numbers were never used to calculate the total Jews killed, the number is not particularly relevant. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Pff. It's more citation than most people give, and excuse ME if I think it has relevance to a page on Auschwitz, not the sacred Holocaust-uber-alles. Actually, I should be annoyed that the shrinking auxiliary numbers can be used to further marginalise, say, the Holocaust of the Romany. If that were possible. Kwantus 16:21, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
The citations are vague, untrustworthy, and most importantly, from non-historical sources. Hoess himself estimated the number killed at 2.5 million. Serious historians like Hilberg (in The Destruction of the European Jews) estimated the number killed at 1 million in 1961, 25 years before Holocaust Deniers started questioning the number. Numbers since then have fluctuated up and down. Taking a series of dubious estimates from non-historical sources, and lining them all up from biggest to smallest, with little regard for when the estimates were made, then claiming that the number is steadily declining as a result, is one of the weaker Denial techniques. And, as I've pointed out before, it's not relevant to the overall Holocaust Death toll, since the Aushwitcz numbers weren't used to calculate it. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:31, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hilberg was not entirely accepted by his contemporary historians, originally, and later on he revised his work in places to accord with David Irving's detailed accounts. Hoess also stated he had been beaten severely by his British captors, but this seldom makes it into the chronicles of the holocaust because it makes his confession sound untrue.


Auschwitz is very old town, once cultural centre, capital of one of duchy.. I am hesistating on whether I should've moved all of this into Auschwitz exetermination camp, and here instead put info on city of Auschwitz. szopen

Auschwitz is the town, so put information about the town here. However, the extermination camps is a important part of its history, so it should be mentioned and/or referenced. Just do it like you did with Treblinka. (I'm angry at myself for making such gross simplification wrt Treblinka.) --Yooden

However Auschwitz had really clear conotations in English, not like Treblinka. I was wondering maybe about Oswiecim entry about town, and Auschwitz about extermination camp. I mean, i don't like that name Auschwitz is nowadays associated only with death, but i am not sure if change similar to Treblinka in case of Auschwitz is justified... Mozzerati 10:17, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

Anyway, right now i have not any good informations about earlier history of Auschwitz, all i remmeber are some basic facts like that it was selled to polish kingdom by last prince of Auschwitz together with Zator and all mines nearby, and that protestants founded there some kind of school, If i am not mistaken... szopen

I see what you mean. So what about this: Once you have more information, make an entry for Oswiecim with all information, and prepend the Auschwitz entry with a synopsis and a reference to Oswiecim. (Auschwitz is the German name for Oswiecim, right?) --Yooden

I don't think that "tourist attraction" should be used while talking about place, where so many people were murdered. There is a wise phrase written in the museum in Oswiecim: "People, who forgot a tragedy, are convicted to experience it again" --swPawel

I agree the general tone should be soon rendered in a more respectful form; if we need to give a great attention to today's visitors, we could perhaps use a reference to "tourism" about that project (I don't know if it was completed - it was a few years ago) of opening a discotheque in front of the camps, and stress instead that human nature can be so pretty that there is also people who goes visiting the camps only to satisfy instincts that other people could also call insane, and in a spirit that might be better not to describe further.
About Arbeit macht frei, a native english speaking contributor might perhaps render with appropriate form, more than the geographical technical details of where people were entering, the general sense of insult that the sign could represent, which is the main reason why we remember it. I know it wasn't in the author's intentions, but by paradox it seems as if the sign was... "innocent" (I omit the following question).
The modern image of Auschwitz never actually existed as such risks to appear as a funny espression...

- -

Note that discoteque was not in front of camp. It was outside the protection zone. As one guy i met on usenet said, it seems that some people want to have protection zone around the protection zone. Or to evacuate whole damn town and leave only cemeteries.
Remember, whole Poland is cemetery. It is hard to find place where Nazis haven't murdered someone. But life must go on. szopenThey had faith all theywanted was to beliveve that everything would be ok until they showed up at the camp..................!!!!!!!
It was described on the newspapers as very close, and the fact of being close to it _meant_ as a feature, in the sense that going to dance in front of camps was its principal special offer. Yes, in front of camps' area, this is how it was described - now we can start a debate about journalists, about correctness in information, whatever you like, but this what I read, on papers from different countries. I however take your point that it wasn't there (and sincerely I thank you for your note); the debate anyhow was started from something, I presume.
Of course life must go on, but memories too deserve to be respected, specially in a place that is so much symbolic today beacause it has been so little symbolic and too much real in the past. I don't think a discotheque is going to open in the next future at Ground Zero, as well.
Life _goes_ on. I live in Rome, where so many places may have similar symbolic contents (in smaller proportions, obviously, but still important), and I can see people in the streets living and enjoying life because life goes on; nevertheless I don't see anyone trying to open an entertainment business in the proximity of any sybolic place right _because_ of this vicinity, or people frequenting it _because_ of this nearness. Are we a lucky people in a lucky place or is it perhaps that there are things that need attention in any culture, at any latitude, beyond any ideology?
So, this doesn't mean at all that whole Poland should be "protected" or that I would like to put the nation under a glass bell, it is not in my words because it is not in my mind; you are perhaps better able that anyone else here to tell us instead about the many camps in your country that nobody is aware of, as nobody is aware of italian camps (let's say just San Sabba, Trieste) and we all just think of Auschwitz to identify in it the whole tragedy; not to make a desert around any or each of these places of terror, but I think can we leave just a symbolic place to stand up alone, representing the many, for the respect of manhood, which is made of the sum of the single respects by anyone of us, starting from us here and passing through the respect of discotheque owners. And for the memory. I don't know if it is correct to be that "iconic", but I am afraid it would be worse if we weren't even that, at least.
On another field, I am not so worried about the discotheque, I am sad about the fact that very likely there would be customers. If so, you might "protect" anything you like, the problem will not be solved, they'd move to another sad but not protected place. And I already said the worse aspect of all is this insane curiosity that makes it seem as if there is a touristic business, a sort of Disneyland in black, that I do hope for general reasons Auschwitz (and Poland) is not.
I am sincerelly sorry if you read in my words something unrespectful for Poland, it wasn't at all in my intentions. I am sure that your country, in its entirety and locally, has no interest in making money from holocaust. I am sure Wikipedia will (respectfully) render this too.

I do not understand this sentence: "Several authors have criticised the historical inaccuracies perpetrated upon Auschwitz [...]" It sounds a bit like Colorless green ideas sleep furiously to me. Can an innaccuracy be perpetrated?

Perhaps some elaboration is necessary to, because we don't know what innacuracies these are.--branko

About 700 prisoners have attempted to escape from Auschwitz over the years

I don't know if the author really intended what this implies in English: that Auschwitz is still around as a prison. Perhaps you mean: about 700 prisoners attempted to escape the Auschwitz concentration camps or something like that? DanKeshet
I'm assuming the latter was intended. I've tweaked it a bit; how does it sound now? --Brion

I have a question about Auschwitz II (Birkenau). The jews and gypsies who were not murdered right away lived in the camp. I would like to know what kind of work they had to do every day. If anybody knows, or has a reference work to look it up, I'd appreciate it. I tried usenet, but no answer. Thanks, AxelBoldt

I'll try to find something. Axel as a native German can you please say a few words about feelings of todays Germans of a such terrible thing from their past. I am sometimes also quite ashamed for my own nation too. There was no such camps as Auschwitz was on a teritory of Slovenia but some bad things also happend during nation's history (for instance terrible war crimes of Slovene traitors against Slovene patriols during the 2nd World War) or postwar crimes of official goverment against enemy's colaborators in 1940s. I must also say that my auntie came from Auschwitz in 1946 weighting a good 30 kg and died in the same year. Some say that these things must never repeat again, but Serb camps from 1990s like Omarska disprove this. How the mankind can protect itself from happening such things? Are we all the rat race in the end as Robert Nesta Marley sung or the dreads of society from Burning Spear's whoops ... Best regard and respect. --XJamRastafire 16:07 Sep 20, 2002 (UTC)

Well, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Germans are shocked and deeply ashamed by the Holocaust, and still struggle to understand it. How it could have happened? Was it ordered from above or did people enthusiastically participate? It's an ongoing debate. Many Germans see the Holocaust as a defining moment in German history and have therefore very ambivalent feelings towards their own nation. AxelBoldt 03:05 Sep 21, 2002 (UTC)

Why is this page listed in the "In the news" section on the Main Page? --mav

See Current events. --Eloquence 10:06 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Probably because George Bush is visiting it today. Thanks the Poles for their war support, and simultaneously snubs the French by reducing the time he'll spend in France. But unless he says something surprising, it doesn't sound like much actual news will be made there... -- Someone else 10:08 31 May 2003 (UTC)
I knew that - my question was why this article is in the "In the news" section since there is no mention of the current event in this article. --mav
Many Americans will probably hear about Auschwitz for the first time when they see on CNN that Bush visits that place. The idea is to provide a background article so that they know what this is about. But if you want to enforce a policy that all articles listed on the Main Page have to cover the event in question, then Auschwitz should not be listed, because it obviously does not meet this condition. --Eloquence 10:26 31 May 2003 (UTC)
For the first time? I dont know what Germans think about the American education system by a good chunk of high school history is based around World War 2 and the atrocities commited by the German government during that period --Anon

I'm a little confused - the article says that the gas chambers at A I didnt survive the war intact but did the ones at A II? PMelvilleAustin 17:12 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No they did not; they were blown up by the Nazis. You can walk around in the ruins. AxelBoldt 22:19 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[The camp brothel] was staffed by women specifically selected for the purpose, and by volunteers from the female prisoners.

How voluntarily did they volunteer? --Charles A. L. 15:55, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I would imagine that some women preferred work in the brothel over the alternatives available to them. I'm not sure if "volunteer" is the right word under these circumstances. "I will shoot you either in the right foot or in the left foot." -- "Ok, I volunteer my left foot." AxelBoldt 08:47, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)


In the version prior to the edit I've just done, the beginning of the article implied that the camp was in Poland. The remains of the camp are in Poland, the area where the camp was had been in Poland prior to the war, but the actual camp, when active, was not, according to my understanding, in Poland. I think, given the way that Poland has moved around alot historically, it's worth explicitly mentioning that it was in the area which had been Annexed into Germany a map of Poland from 1941/2. Note that, at the time, Poland (General Government of Poland) did exist in a different area. I do not think that has dropped any information in this edit. Mozzerati 06:26, 2004 Jun 4 (UTC)

Oh I see, I had a hard time understanding the convoluted first paragraph. If that was the point, I'll put it back in. AxelBoldt 08:27, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Axel has reverted a change that I made (Auschwitz is the name of a concentration camp..) to an older form (Auschwitz is the German name of a town). I, as a native English speaker, don't feel that this is really the main definition any more. How about something like the following proposal, which I think is both precise and clear (see below):

Auschwitz is used as a shorthand for a series of concentration and extermination camps. The name Auschwitz is the German form of the name of the Polish town Oświęcim, situated about 60 km southwest of Krakow. Beginning in 1940, Nazi Germany built several concentration camps and an extermination camp in the area, which at the time was annexed by Germany. The camps were a major constituent of the Holocaust. There were three main camps, and thirty-nine subcamps. The three main camps were:

The most likely place to encounter the name is in phrases such as "she was sent to Auschwitz", "he died in Auschwitz" and "Primo Lewi survived Auschwitz". Even though there's a certain ambiguity in this (which camp? was "she" actually sent to the camp or the town).

It should be noted that in English, the ambiguity is in most practical cases resolved by using the German form for the camp and the Polish form for the town. Try doing a Google search for each term; if you ask for results in English only the difference is striking (Auschwitz returns links about the camps; Oswiecim returns one link about the museum followed by many tourism links). This distiction does not exist in Polish (where both can be Oswiecim) or German (where both can be Auschwitz).

Mozzerati 20:01, 2004 Jul 4 (UTC)

Am informal discussion on the Wikipedia IRC channel agrees with your version. Please change the article to reflect that Auschwitz is camp, making the town name secondary, along the lines of "Auschwitz was a Nazi concentration camp, named for the nearby town of Oswiecim (which the Nazi Germans called by the Germanized name Auschwitz)." -- orthogonal 03:27, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Incomplete...

International Red Cross visited Auschwitz a lot (and certainly found no evidence of "genocide"), why isn't this mentioned?

In fact, nothing is mentioned that would provide evidence that Auschwitz was anything less than a death factory where Jews lined up to be gassed.

There is also strong evidence that the gas chamber shown to visitors even today was built by Polish communists in 1948. This may or may not be exactly true, but I take it it cannot be mentioned - where other speculation (and that's what it is) is presented as fact?

Very disappointing, and far from NPOV.


--Wintceas 14:19, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)----

1) Give us the dates when Red Cross had been in Auschwitz, please. Auschwitz was no Terezin.

2) It's common knowledge that today's gas chambers are a later reconstruction based on those destroyed by the Germans.

3) This article IS impartial, as far as your ignorant assertions are concerned.

If the Red Cross ever visited Auschwitz, which I dispute, I would like to hear of any comtemporary sources in evidence of it.The gas chamber in Auschwitz 1 is original, though it was modified by the SS into an air raid shelter, and re-converted to its original form after the war. The associated crematorium was rebuilt from the original components, which remained on site. All of the other gas chambers and crematoria, of which there are four at Birkenau, exist only as ruins. To talk of their existance as reconstructions merely reveals lack of knowledge of the camp.--Anthony.bradbury 21:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


The Red Cross visited throughout the war. They produced reports - supposedly in existence but not released ( the revisionists would love to see them, so they aren't the cause for the hesitatancy it would appear ). To convert the "gas chamber" to an air raid shelter would interrupt the deaths and make the total death count too low.

I do not accept your unreferenced word, anonymous editor, that the red cross EVER visited Auschwitz. I can find no record of it, so please give citations. As for the gas chamber conversion, that is undeniable. And as the total death count in this gas chamber was only some 60,000 spread over one year, as against 1.1 to 1.6 million at Birkenau, your comment about the total count is not defensible.--Anthony.bradbury 19:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


Search for Red Cross Arolsen etc on the web, you can't miss the documents. The entire Red Cross inspection record - inmate counts, deaths, hospital facilities, foo - calories, etc - is available at their Arolsen facility. The records have been sequestered for decades - supposedly to end soon, fat chance I believe - but a few have been released - easy to find. Starnge to see the number 60,000, that happens to be the entire population of inmates who marched West with the SS to escape the Russians.

60,000 - which is clearly a round figure estimate - relates to the number of murders perpetrated in the gas chamber at Auschwitz I between 1941 and 1942. It has absolutely no relationship to the number of survivors forcibly marched from Birkenau in 1945. In Germany and Austria today, Holocaust denial is a criminal offence, punishable with imprisonment. What are your views on this?--Anthony.bradbury 18:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have now looked through the various Red Cross Arolsen sites, as you requested, and while there is contained therein extensive statistical evidence of the scale and dimension of the Holocaust, which confirms my position, nowhere is it claimed that the Red Cross ever visited the site. Nowhere. The Aroldsen data is all data accumulated post-war.--Anthony.bradbury 18:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Images

At the top of page, I see the pictures aligned horizontally in an ugly fashion before I see any of the article text. I would like to fix this by moving the pictures around, spacing them out vertically, but then again the problem may be particular to my browser or my Wikipedia format, in which case I wouldn't want to mess with it. Everyking 10:03, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Picture of entrance

The writing on the wrought-iron entrance actually translates as "work makes free" - although this is almost the same as "work liberates" it is the more correct translation. I don't want to change it without an opinion though. What does anyone else think? Selphie 13:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) **

I think you're right. Jayjg | (Talk) 17:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't know German, but "work liberates" sounds like a more natural english phrase than "work makes free". The BBC's Auschwitz series uses "work makes you free". This sounds like a better translation. Cburnett 18:57, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about the current version, "Work (shall) make (you) free"? See also the Arbeit macht frei article. Jayjg | (Talk) 19:07, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, that article has "work liberates" or "work shall make you free". Either would get my vote. Cburnett 19:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)


As a German speaker (although I am English) I can tell you that it is Arbeit (work) macht (makes) frei (free). It almost seems as though they made it simplistic and 3 worded so that the inmates could understand it. Even though it was an utter lie. Malice1982
Well, half a lie and half a horiffic pun. On the one hand, it was a false promise to keep the inmates pacified and obedient, hoping they might actually get to leave. On the other, it was literally true for those who were worked to death, if death can be considered a kind of freedom. --Arvedui 17:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The Polish government

"The Polish government" has been imposed to the Poles by the UK, USA and SU, so I'd rather call it "Soviet-British-American government" or "Anti-Polish conspiracy". This government assigned some Soviet crimes to the Germans, e.g. the Katyn murder. I bet that the four-million story came from Moscow.

--Wintceas 14:12, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC) You don't need to bet anything. The figure was a Soviet fabrication made soon after the camp liberation. Historians know that since the 50's.

Gas chambers

The official museum site informs about the destruction of several chambers: http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/krematoria_komory_gazowe_ok.html (Some links are false, you may inform the museum, if you care)

Fate of female prisoners

I've removed the following from the article:

Some female prisoners fared even worse. A female Jewish prisoner has stated that Soviet troops repeatedly raped female inmates, sometimes strangling them afterwards.[1]

since it gives a citation that does not appear to exist within the article. Please supply a source citation if you restore this text to the article. -- The Anome 12:00, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I have deleted a reworded version of the above statement. A serious charge like this needs to have a citation. My Grandfather (deceased) knew a man whose wife had survived Auschwitz. From what my Grandmother can remember about her conversations with her was that Soviet soldiers provided food, water and blankets upon liberation. --RPlunk 23:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
The information came from a review of Berlin by Anthony Beevor, I won't reinstate it until I've checked the original source. Incidentaly, a surving female prisoner made similar claims on the acclaimed BBC documentary Auschwitz. Conch Shell 16:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Deaths by Experimentation

Why is there no mention in the article of the many experiments, including, most predominantly, Mind Control and medical experiments, which were performed on the inmates? It has been concluded that the numbers stated officially killed in gas chambers is a physical impossibility in the timeframe given, and many inmates actually died during such experiments. It is also known that some inmates were programmed through traumatic dissociative procedures, had their eye colour, hair colour, and facial features altered, and were then reintroduced into society, as part of Mengele's experiments. Why is this not mentioned? Atun

Do you have a source with information on that? If so, you might want to include some summarized material from that. Jayjg (talk) 15:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have found these discussions an interesting read, and I myself have visited the camps. With the information already printed I don't think there's much I could help you with in the understanding of Auschwitz though. Being part Polish myself, thinking of my grandad's participation in the war made the experience hard. Those of a German heritage that have contibuted on here mentioned that they were ashamed and I can understand this, but they have to remember that it was the Nazis not the Germans that ruled these camps. I visited in a large group consisting of English, Polish and German teens and as I was born in England it was us, the English, who helped with the pain of both our Polish and German company. Auschwitz was on the German side of the border at the time the camps were open and as others have mentioned with the shifting of the Polish border it is now part of Poland. Again relating to an earlier question, there is a small section of gas chamber remaining, consisting of a small empty room with a 'shower nozzle' hanging from the ceiling. As the prisoners were told they were about to have a shower. There is also a small section of the crematorium left, but a lot of the buildings remaining are the living quarters (in Birkenau) which stretch over acres of land showing the real extent of the capacity of prisoners held. - Bożena Jablonski

At Auschwitz concentration camp, Dr. Josef Mengele carried out medical experiments of this kind. These included placing subjects in pressure chambers, testing various drugs on them, freezing them to death, and various other usually fatal traumas. Of particular interest to Mengele were twins; beginning in 1943, twins were selected and placed in special barracks. My source? Nazi human experimentation. Maybe a wikilink in the main article?--jfg284 you were saying? 21:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

uncertain date

There are some doubts about 1941, September as a date of the first killing with Zyklon B in Auschwitz I. Please see Diskussion Tesch & Stabenow in German Wikipedia. Holgerjan = 84.143.205.238 21:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Belegstelle für ersten Massentötungseinsatz von Blausäuregas (5./6. September 1941)in Jürgen Kalthoff / Martin Werner: Die Händler des Zyklon B ... Hamburg 1998 ISBN 3-87975-713-5 / Seite 235 --- Ich suche zur Sicherheit eine weitere Belegstelle. --Holgerjan 00:48, 13. Mär 2005 (CET)

und schon ist die Sache schwierig. Ich habe nachgesehen in der gerade erschienenen hervorragenden DVD-ROM Der Auschwitz-Prozess" ISBN 3-89853-501-0 Bei den Vorermittlungen ist zu dieser ersten Massenvergasung in Block 11 des Stammlagers durch Fritzsch sogar der 9. Oktober 1941 genannt, später wird als Datum der 3. 9. 1941 genannt (auf Seite 404 / 633). Diese Angaben stammen ja aus den Akten von 1965 - warum in meinem zitierten Buch von 1998 das Datum um einige Tage verschoben wird, ist mir nicht klar. --- Ich werde also nur den Monat angeben, nicht den Tag. --Holgerjan 14:46, 13. Mär 2005 (CET)

Und nochmals wird das genaue Datum ungewisser: Peter Longerich: Der ungeschriebene Befehl. Hitler und der Weg zur Endlösung, München 2001 - gibt auf Seite 124 an: "In Auschwitz wurden im September oder Dezember 1941 600 sowjetische Kriegsgefangen sowie 250 ausgesonderte kranke Häftlinge in einem Keller des Blocks 11 mit Hilfe einer hohen Konzentration des hochgiftigen Desinfektionsmittels Zyklon B ermordet. Zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt, im Dezember 1941, wurden.... mit Hilfe von Giftgas ermordet." --- Ob hier ein Versehen vorliegt und es im ersten Satz zumindest November statt Dezember heißen müsste? Der Anschluss-Satz passt nicht so recht... --- Peter Logerich war Gutachter im Prozess gegen David Irving und gilt als ausgewiesener Fachmann. Der Vorgang selbst mit den Zahlenangaben bleibt unbestritten --Holgerjan 14:28, 27. Mär 2005 (CEST)

Ich gebe auf! Das fand ich bei Christopher Browning: Die Entfesslung der Endlösung. Nationalsozialistische Judenpolitik, München 2003 ISBN 3-549-07187-6 auf Seite 513: Spätsommer 1941. Höß habe jedoch unterschiedliche Angaben gemacht. Auf Anmerkung 205/206 werden diese zitiert. In Anmerkung 207/208 sind weitere Datumsangaben aufgeführt, darunter die des Irving-Prozess-Gutachters Robert Jan van Pelt, von dem offenbar das Datum Dezember 1941 stammt. Browning kritisiert, dass bei van Pelt nicht auf andere Beweise eingegangen wird; es wird deutlich, dass Browning Oktober 1941 für richtig hält. --Holgerjan 12:01, 29. Mär 2005 (CEST)

Many of the tests conducted were done on females. They were tring to stop the jewish race. in school we watched an inerview with a former Nazi doctor... he was aquitted because some one asked him to stop sending the people to the gas chambers, so instead he, and some other people did harmless tests to stall there death at the gas chambers. 152.163.100.204 20:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Beatified

The term beatified was piped to cannonization and not beatification. I changed it and piped it to beatification as there is a wikipedia article on it.

Vandalism?

I reverted User:213.206.148.225 because I saw they had changed Auschwitz from being a site to honor the victims of Nazism to one to honor Nazism. Subsequently I noticed the IP had made prior edits which may or may not be vandalism, I can't really say, so someone else may want to take a look at them. Everyking 06:07, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Should this be fixed?

At the moment I am at school doing a history assignment, I have chosen the Auschwitz camps as the topic. However, I think the person who made this change - the Afuckuschwitz camps (before the contents) is very immature and downright stupid. Someone should please fix this. Thanks.

A comment on Victor Frankl, listed as inmate at Auschwitz, if wikipedia is looking for the utmost accuracy that should probably be changed to most likely only transited Auschwitz, probably only for 3 days. At least that is the most recent conclusion from the Journal of Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Timothy E. Pytell, Redeeming the unredeemable. http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/holocaust_and_genocide_studies/v017/17.1pytell.

"Most important, the revelation that Frankl spent only three days in Auschwitz is startling for any reader of Man's Search for Meaning. Frankl makes no mention of Theresienstadt in his book....Frankl even portrays himself as an authority on the camp with the claim that "the prisoner of Auschwitz, in the first phase of shock, did not fear death. Even the gas chambers lost their horrors for him after the first few days." 86 This assertion is dubious at best, since Frankl was in Auschwitz only for a few days. " 139.80.123.38 22:19, NOVEMBER 14, 2005

Link to Official Web Site of Auschwitz

Perhaps a link to the official web page of the Auschwitz Camp and Museum could be given: http://www.auschwitz-museum.oswieci.pl

Leuchter Report

There should be at least a mention of the Leuchter report which found no evidence that Aushwitz was used as an "extermination" camp as such, if for no other reason than to link back to the Leuchter page.

Being the most comprehensive scientific study ever performed on the site, its absence would lead an independent observer to question why it is not included.

Because the Leuchter report was found as bunk by the courts, engineers, and historians, a fact which was emphasized when Leuchter admitted lying to a court about his background. You can read about it at the article on Fred A. Leuchter. You can see an actual scientific survey here, which found cynide at the gas chambers: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-seven.html

His report was part of the evidence accepted by the court at the trial of Ernst Zundel that refutes the idea that Zylon B gas was used to exterminate prisoners (see Fred A. Leuchter) at Auschwitz. These facts need to be made part of this wiki.

You should sign your comments, but I see by your contributions that you have made a number of suggestions along similar themes to other pages, so I suspect discussion will not be that productive, since you appear to have a strong POV on the subject. However, if you read the article you point to in your link, you will see that the report was not accepted by the court as evidence, but rather as a display, about which Leuchter was brought to testify about. He was shown systematically in that court session to have no knowledge of the subject, and was also later found to have perjured himself. Tests done using actual scientific methods detected cyanide residue. Holocaust denial already rears its ugly head in this article more than enough, with the whole Auschwitz plaque gambit, so including the disproven testimony of a Holocaust denier who was found by courts in Massachusetts and Canada to have lied under oath is not needed. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


I believe the only other study done ( actually they tried twice ) was by a Polish group. There study has been debunked. When they didn't find what they wanted they stalled the release of their report and then left out all they could from it. Easy to find their work on the web.


Zyklon B - wiki - is still in production. Has anyone tried to recreate a gas chamber using it? A reproducable experiment would clear up Leuchter's et all ( pro and con ) conclusions. Time, conditions, quantity,etc - unless someone cheated - could be reproduced under rigorous measurements. Prove your point - would make a great citation.

German prisoners reconstructed the camp?

I have recently read that German prisoners worked there after the war. If it isn't obvious I'll check my sources. Xx236 13:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Just a question

It says that Auschwitz 2 (Birkenau) was started in 1941 as part of the "final solution". That really should be changed as the final solution wasnt decided until January 1942 at the Wansee Conference.Banana.girl 08:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not correct. The final solution had started long before the Wannsee Conference. The Wannsee Conference is NOT the beginning of the Final Solution, it is simply a conference in which Heydrich assures that 1) SS has the upper hand in the death process. 2) the coordination and cooperation go smoothly, something that necessitated the attendence of the different departments. Stiangutten 10:06, 24 February (UTC) Looking back, I really didnt say what I meant!! what i meant by that was that the final solution was decided then. Its just that my history teacher often says that January 1942 was when it was all finalised. If that wasnt true, its ok. I dont mean to cause a problem. Banana.girl 08:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


Go read the Wannassee report - hard to figure out how a "final solution" can be found in it. It even lays out a solution that is defintiely not final. Your teacher should read more - or at least a little. Read it - really, you will be surprised as to what it says ( try several translations, hopefully you read German but the context certainly will not give you the traditional outcome. )

Have you read it? The phrase "die Endlösung der Judenfräge" is specifically used in the directive from ReichMarschall Göring to Gruppenführer (as he then was) Reinhardt Heydrich, and is quoted in the minutes belonging to Martin Luther, who was present. His was, as you may know, the onlyt copy to survive. I would accept that the word "extermination" is not specifically used. But deportation to th East is, and anyone who can not or will not accept that in this context the East means Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, Maidenek or Belsec has his head in the sand. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anthony.bradbury (talk • contribs) 20:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC).


However the Wannsee is rigorous in stating that the deportation was to remove Jews from Germany and to produce a work force. Killing Jews didn't require a camp and a dead work force is worthless. Who went to the hospitals in Auschitwz - Germans, Poles, or Jews.

Aerial photograpy by US Air force

Just read an article in history today that made reference to pictures of Auschwitz the US Airforce took when they where investigating IG Farben in preparation for a bombing. It was only recently realized that the camp was photographed back then.

As I understand it those pictures would be public domain. Do we need to get them from an official source or could we scan them from the puplication? Agathoclea 18:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Polish authorities asked the Americans repeatedly to bomb the camp (or rather its train station and other facilities in order to allow for the prisoners to escape), so they must've known what where they shooting pics of... But this is of course OT here. Halibutt 18:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The photos were actually published in 1978 by the CIA, but they are PD - you can see them here. I'll place one of them in the article. Also, it is not clear that the US knew that the pictures were of a death camp at the time they were taken, the photography was of the factory, the camp was incidental. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for putting it up :-) Agathoclea 23:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

A detailed discussion of the photos are also on codoh.

Reason for location

the article states: "The German camp was located in this area due to a high Polish Jewish population." But accourding to the quoted references the camp was far underutilized, and I seem to remember that it was supposed to "deal with" all the Jews et al from the soon to be conquered lands. Which then didn't happen. - So my question is could the above sentance be adjusted to reflect that? Agathoclea 18:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Auschwitz Cross

Is it verifiably true that most of the victims in Auschwitz 1 were Polish Catholics. If not, I think we should change the words "pointed out" to "claimed" in §5 of the "After the War" section. --David.Mestel 20:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I've made this change. --David.Mestel 06:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No objectons so you have changed... but you have changed the history as well.
What about sentence at the beginning:
Auschwitz I, the original concentration camp which served as the administrative centre for the whole complex, and was the site of the deaths of roughly 70,000 people, mostly Poles and Soviet prisoners of war.
Note: the overall number of Soviet POS in Auschwitz (1, 2, and 3) was 20000 to 30000.
Get your pencil and paper and do some math.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.2.99.90 (talk • contribs) .

Sources

Most of the stuff in this article is unsourced, so any demand for removal of unsourced material would mean dismantling it. Credible authorities, whether or not an assertion is true, are difficult to find. I see alot of photos of basements and wooden structures that were supposed to have been gas chambers. Alot of it is internet rumor that is easy to pass around. Who can provide a source for this "fact" from the Auschwitz article:

In September 1941, the SS conducted poison gas tests in block 11, killing 850 Poles and Russians using cyanide. The first experiment was on 3 September, 1941, and it killed 600 Soviet POWs

??? I'll just check back regularly to see if anyone provides a primary source. The problem is that Nuremberg testimonies and Nazi documents and eyewitness accounts are all buried in the past. A surprisingly high proportion of Nazis facing trial were found dead in their cells of apparent suicide. Some even were reported as poisoning themselves with poison they themselves managed to sneak into the cells despite routine strip searches. No doubt a last minute episode of shame and guilt motivated them to end it all after confessing their crimes in private under interrogation, but before they would ever be called to the witness stand to tell their stories before the world.

Much of the understanding we have today of Auschwitz is based on the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, camp commandant 1940-43. Hoess confessed under oath to administrating 2 million deaths at Auschwitz during his tenure, and testified further that he understood the total number as finally reaching 3 million. He also stated in his autobiography that he was severely beaten by the British during the time of his capture and internment before the Nuremberg trials. His autobiography was first published in Polish, not German. It was later translated into English, and presumably from Polish into German since the original German text was never made available. Hoess's signed statements at Nuremberg are mostly in English, though by law and convention they should have been in German. Many of his Nuremberg statements contain handwritten changes in English, not on Hoess's hand; there is no evidence that Hoess could speak, read, write, or understand either English or Polish. Mysteriously, this final estimate of 3 million has been revised downwrd to 1.1 million by none other than the administrators at the Auschwitz museum in charge today.

Two documents from the German industrial archives which were registered by the Americans at Nuremberg tell us that the Zyklon B, or gaseous hydrogen cyanide, had a strong tendency to adhere to surfaces and would best be removed from an ordinary room with a strong ventilator; ordinary off-gassing or aeration could last 24 hours. The solid pellets would activate into gas at about room temperature (25.7C, 78F) and additional heat speeds the process. Documents found only at the site in the Auschwitz Museum archives show that the main room in question was of 210 square meters, had been located underground, and was provided with a single door which served as both an entrance and an exit (no ventilation system). Hydrogen cyanide gas is an extremely toxic substance, lethal at only 300 parts per million, and explosive at 56,000 parts per million. Normal conditions require sophisticated ventilation systems and gas masks to avoid almost instant death to operators. Forty percent of the population is unable to detect the almond-like odor of the gas.

Zyklon B was originally designed as a pesticide to kill lice, a carrier of typhus. Typhus was extremely prevalent throughout Europe, and in the crowded, unsanitary conditions of the camp the disease killed countless prisoners. The difficulty in combating the spread of lice necessitated shaving the heads of both male and female prisoners. Certain smaller gas chambers with sophisticated mechanisms for induction of Zyklon B pellets, heating to speed activation, and ventilation for off-gassing were constructed clearly for the purpose of de-lousing objects such as clothing. Crematoria were constructed to handle the inevitably large number of corpses in a camp with tens of thousands of inmates. Theoretically, other non-specific buildings such as bunkers, barracks, and, most famously, showers, were used for human extermination, though most or all of these structures were supposed to have been destroyed by the Nazis directly before the end of the war. They were subsequently re-built by the Russians according plans based on eye-witness testimonials, and these are what one sees at Auschwitz today. American liberators of the camp made no mention of recently destroyed facilities, however. Tests have been conducted by Polish officials on the presence residual cyanide in the bricks of certain extant buildings and these are reported as showing positive results for cyanide exposure. However, it is conceivable that the Nazis, faced with the huge task of eliminating vermin and typhus-carrying lice, used these larger structures for treatment of the "mountains of clothing" so frequently cited.

Endorsers of the full-on version of the holocaust would have us believe that it is impermissible to question any aspect of the holocaust because that would be questioning the essential premise upon which it rests: that many Jews were persecuted and murdered. This is a kind of perverse petitio principii argument whereby the premise is based on the conclusion, and vice versa, and none of the steps in between can come under scrutiny. An example of this circular logic would be the following: "We know the Nazis pursued a program of extermination of the Jews but they couldn't speak about it openly, therefore they must have devised 'code words' to communicate with each other." These 'code-worded' documents then become the basis for the premise and conclusion that the Nazis had a program to exterminate all Jews. Someone asks, "How do you know there was ever a program?" the answer is "Look at these documents with all these code words." If someone questions this reasoning at all, he or she is then attacked for "denying the Holocaust". There may be other perfectly good peices of evidence to support the existence of the holocaust, but it takes many bricks to build a wall, so the more evidence the better. Once the wall is built it becomes a serious threat to its integrity to remove a brick here and there. Such monolithic belief structures rarely have much credibility overall, however.

The existence of concentration camps is disturbing enough without the addition of drastically hyperbolic accounts of baby eating and experiments with radiation. The exact details of how these camps operated will never be known because of the unfortunate mixing of fact and blatant fabrication. Seek out facts wherever possible. If one finds oneself slipping softly into supine acceptance of some official version of reality, one is obliged as a human being to question just how valid that version of reality is ... or not question it. It's a matter of choice after all.

Please provide reliable secondary sources for your Holocaust denial original research before attempting to re-insert it into any article. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 02:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Please stop making your cause a personal campaign, Jayjig. Stop following me around wikipedia and deleting and changing everything I've written without providing any basis. Put up or shut up. You haven't provided any basis whatsoever for your actions.

Of course I have, Wikipedia policy. I'll repeat: Please provide reliable secondary sources for your Holocaust denial original research before attempting to re-insert it into any article. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 06:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg is quite right. This material does not belong in the article. As well as missing the required reliable sources, it is mostly rubbish. --Zerotalk 06:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Easy to say, hard to substantiate. "Mostly rubbish" is such a trite phrase. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.109.175.76 (talk • contribs) .

He/she may choose to correct me, but I strongly suspect that this editor, whose name I cannot detect, has never been to Auschwitz. Had he done so, he would know that Gas Chamber1, which is located in Auschwitz I, is a solid stone structure partly buried under an earth mound, which survived the war and exists today. It was used by the SS in the latter half of the war as an air-raid shelter. The associated crematorium was dismantled by the SS, but reconstructed in 1946 using the original materials.Gas Chambers II, III, IV and V and their associated crematoria still exist as piles of concrete and brick rubble; they were blown up by the SS as the Russians approached. Whether the true figure of deaths at Auschwitz is 1.1 million or 1.5 million does not seem to affect the enormity of the crime committed there. Those people are still there - if one walks between the huts, which tourists are not permitted to do, particles of bone are visible where the Nazis scattered their victims' ashes. There are many, many first-hand accounts of what happened at Auschwitz; to attempt to deny them, or even to minimise them, as the above editor does, is a contemptible offence against the victims, their families and the whole of humanity.--Anthony.bradbury 14:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


Interesting that Hoess confessed to 300% more deaths than now are said to have happened. hy was he so generous?

I can not give a referenced response here; at his trial, and from his testimony, it is clear that he was proud of what he had done. Given that, he might have been inclined to magnify what he apparently saw as worthwhile achievements. But, as I say, hypothesis only.--Anthony.bradbury 20:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Above you asked the "denier" for reliable sources. Do you have any reliable sources for the article?

To the Holocaust denier posting above

Your denials will not make my grandparent's families memory go away. My Father's father was the only one of his family to survive the war as a young adult. His parents, brothers, sisters, grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, nephews - dozens of family members - are all gone. Murdered. There is no grave left, no fingerprints, no photos, no houses, no trace - save in the memory of the sole survivor, My grandfather David. He came to Israel, became a metalworker in a Kibbutz, married, had sons, grandsons and granddaughters. He died last year, age 88. My four grandparents all survived the war on a razor's edge. So many jews around the world have no family left. How can you do this? How can you try to kill the private and collective memories of a people? How can you try to erase the horrible crime committed against us and the civilization of man?

You can call me a liar. You can deny everything and everyone. You can deny that the earth circles the sun and say that all the astronomers are engaged in a massive conspiracy to hide "The Truth", and that nothing will make you change your mind from "The Truth". You could twist and turn pieces of fact and claim that somehow some discreptancy in modern astronomy "Proves" the astronomer's "Lies" with non-speak such as Such monolithic belief structures rarely have much credibility overall etc.

I ask you to stop this evil that you are commiting. Stop poisoning young minds that have yet to read about this terrible part of history. Stop trying to deny the horrible crime - as it aides those that seek to make it happen again. RZ. June 8th, 2006. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.155.24.43 (talk • contribs) .

That is very sad that You've lost Your relatives. But that is also the fact that many nazis were defamed after WW2. That is not fair. Atrocities against jews are condemned like greatest evil in whole world history. But the same or worse atrosities against germans are somehow justified. That is too selective to be fair. You are'nt only who suffered during WW2. There are many peoples in Europe who suffered much more then jews. Germans, for example. You might be shocked, but atrosities against my own race worries me much more than atrosities agaist Your people. World jewry and whole mankind are not the same. Some author said: "propaganda of victors became history of vanquished". Sorry, but I don't believe victors' propaganda. Truth is not evil.--Igor "the Otter" 06:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that Nazism was a philosophy which preached the superiority of the Nordic or Aryan race above all others, and also preached that Jews, Negros, Roma and some other minorities were subhuman species who the master race could enslave or destroy at will, I would suggest that defaming Nazis is a contradiction in terms, in that their philosophy defamed them itself without outside help.

As to there being worse atrocities comiited against the Germans, that is a statement hard to justify. If you are thinking of examples such as the firebombing of Hamburg or Lubeck, or the bombing of Dresden, you have a point to make. The answer of course is that, well judged or not, these were wartime operations against the German armaments industry or transport infrastructure. The people in the extermination camps were deliberately, callously and cold-bloodedly murdered, and I submit these are not comparable situations.

I do not know which your own race, which you alude to, is. If your name indicates a Soviet origin, then I would accept beyond argument that the atrocities committed by the Stalinist regime certainly equal those committed by the Nazis, at least in terms of total numbers. But to acknowledge one atrocity does not diminish the other. If, on the other hand, you are German, and are referring to the excesses committed by the Red Army on its advance to Berlin, then I can only say that many of the Soviet soldiers had seen what the Werhmacht did to civilian women in Russia, and while their behaviour is not excusable, it is in my view ubderstandable in the climate of 1945 --Anthony.bradbury 23:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

My race is white, as You can guess. Both German and Russian nations are belonging to the same race. But that does'nt matter. The matter is that jews who suffered from that war much less then either germans or russians are considered as the "poorest victims" in world history. They are so poor that they are now allowed to expell other people from their homes. Soviet soldiers didn't care about nationality of women they rape. So that wasn't kind of revenge. If You think that soviet soldiers' behavior was understandable, than I think so about considering some minotiry as subhuman species. That was mainstream science opinion of that time in all civilized countries. Where is nothing defaminng in that. In that time it was absolutely normal. But not even subhuman. Allien will be more right. Acting in interests of your own people is absolutely normal too. Even now israelis think they have right both to enslave and destroy palestinians. Killing civilian population is not acceptable, but I don't understand, why killing jew is worse than killing white. That insults me. As I know, first example of the genocide described in Bible, in that part there jews conquer Promised Land. And Bible justified that genocide. Now some jews say they'll never forgive. Whom? My race? I owe nothing to them. Long ago was time both to forgive and forget everything bad.--Igor "the Otter" 11:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think you can justify a statement saying that the Jews suffered less than the Germans or Russians. The Jews lost half of their total population in the Holocaust, and neither of the Nationalities you specify approached that percentage. And when I say that the behaviour of Soviet soldiers in Germany in 1945 was understandable, that does not mean it was right or that I condone it. The point I was making is that many of them had seen their own women raped and killed and their families shot by the Nazis, and they knew that were invading Nazi Germany. Two wrongs do not make a right, agreed. Furthermore, it was not the official policy of the Soviet Government to target German civilians, except as collateral damage in military operations, while it was the policy of the German Government to destroy all members of the Jewish race. I see a distinction here; if you do not we must agree to differ.--Anthony.bradbury 19:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I doubt in number of 6 millions. 6 million includes 4 millions gassed in Auschwitz. Now it is estimated about 1,1 millions (by official history). Official history replys: "That does'nt matter, we just lied there, anyway 6 millions". Believe if You like. And there is no proves that that gas chambers existed except words. I think therefore number of 2 millions will be closer to truth. Not only nazis destroyed jews. So did romanians, ukrainians and others. Germany and Soviet Union lost more than 40 millions of people. Please explain me, why 1 jew more important then 10 whites? I see no reason but jewish money paid to mass media. Percentage? What if nation consistst of 100 persons? You think extinction of such nation more important then million of dead people? I hardly think so. Please point me an example of mass rapes commited by nazis. Policy is that made by politicians. Churchill desided to bomb Hamburg and Dresden, Trueman desided to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so there is difference?--Igor "the Otter" 20:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I have stood inside the gas chamber at Auschwiz I, and walked around the ruins of the gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau. I recognise that there are always going to be some people incapable of accepting the simple, multiply attested existence of the Holocaust, and regret to find that you are one such. Goodbye.--Anthony.bradbury 20:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that chamber was built in 1946--Igor "the Otter" 21:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

You heard wrong.--Anthony.bradbury 21:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

So when it was built?--Igor "the Otter" 21:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

September 1941. It was used as a gas chamber, killing approximately 60,000 people, until 1942, when with the opening up of the four much bigger gas chamber/crematorium complexes at Birkenau it was converted for use by the SS as an air raid shelter, and used as such until the liberation. All this is in the article - have you actually read it?--Anthony.bradbury 22:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked about chambers which are available for tourists NOW. When were built THESE chambers? If not in 1946? Original ones were destroyed in 1945. There written they were reconstructed. If there are some original blueprints? So how they were reconstructed? I don't understand. Faurisson proved that it is technically impossible to use that chambers in the way official history claims.--Igor "the Otter" 15:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The four chambers at Birkenau were destroyed in early 1945 and survive as ruins. I have walked there. The chamber at Auschwitz I was not destroyed, and is the original one from 1941. Not reconstructed. As far as Faurisson is concerned, if you take the trouble to read this whole talk page you will see how he has been totally discredited. Why can Holocaust deniers such as yourself not accept the simple, straightforward eye-witness account of thousands of Auschwitz survivors? It seems so easy to me.--Anthony.bradbury 21:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Bacause there were examples when nazis were defamed. Like there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre Trials From December 29, 1945 to January 5, 1946, ten officers of the German Wehrmacht – Karl Hermann Strüffling, Heinrich Remmlinger, Ernst Böhm, Eduard Sonnenfeld, Herbard Janike, Erwin Skotki, Ernst Geherer, Erich Paul Vogel, Franz Wiese, and Arno Dürer – were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. They were falsely charged for an alleged role in the Katyn massacre. The first seven officers were sentenced to death and executed by public hanging on the same day. The other three were sentenced to hard labor, Vogel and Wiese to 20 year terms each and Dürer to 15 years.[36] Dürer is said to have pleaded guilty at the trial and to have returned to Germany later, the fate of the others sentenced to hard labor remains unknown.

Soviet government executed 7 german officers for one's own atrocity. That is one of my reasons to be suspicious.--Igor "the Otter" 12:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is now generally accepted that Katyn was a Soviet atrocity; certainly I would not argue with this interpretation. But Katyn has no relationship at all to the Holocaust.--Anthony.bradbury 15:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

May be Katyn says little about Holocaust, but it says much about nazis' enemies who tried nazis and wrote history of that war.--Igor "the Otter" 16:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, "discredited" in my eyes are those who have banned to ask questions about this matter, not those who doubt and ask questions.----193.17.208.226 14:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)193.17.208.226 14:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)--Igor "the Otter" 14:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Igor, you said a few paragraphs back "Please point me an example of mass rapes commited by nazis". Take a look into the origin of the name of the british band 'Joy Division'. Also, I think you'll find documents found at auschwitz confirmed reports of these divisions existing.

Couldn't find any internet reference to "Joy Divisions". Doubt it ( German officers were strick in disciplne - Hoss' predecessor I believe was executed for mistreating inmates, so I doubt regular soldiers were at liberty to indulge.

Höss was the first commander of the camp, and hence had no predecessor.--Anthony.bradbury 11:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that - it was Hermann Florstedt of Majdanek and Karl Koch of Buchenwald who were executed by the SS for mistreatment of prisoners. But I assume the message got around after a couple of executions.

Soviet liberation?

I noticed this in the Auscwitz II section: "When the Soviet army marched into Auschwitz to liberate the camp..."

From what I've read, I'm dubious that the arrival of the Soviet troops constituted much of a "liberation" - how about we leave out speculation over the Soviets' motives and say "When the Soviet army marched into Auschwitz"?

Also, there are very few inline sources in the article - are the claims supported by the few sources listed at the end? Just because something is widely known and accepted doesn't give us a break from the requirement to cite our sources. Cheers, Kasreyn 21:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, but the word "liberate" in the context used means "free from Nazi rule" and that they certainly did. And the Russians did call in the Red Cross and tried to save the remaining inmates, none of whom would have lived under the SS.--Anthony.bradbury 13:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. "Liberate" is exactly the right word, and is also in general use. To verify this, Google searches on liberate (fill in the name of any concentration camp) yield copious results. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


I believe most of the inmates voluntarily chose to leave with the SS when they retreated. Only the sickest stayed behind.

That is a quite extaordinary statement, anonymous editor. Please give references or retract. Unless by "voluntarily" you mean "come now or be shot through the back of the head".--Anthony.bradbury 20:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually I really hate to do this but my source is Elie Wiesel. He chose to evacuate - his words - rather than remain with his father at the infirmary. This, however, is from a novel by Wiesel,"Night". I remember Anne Frank, etc were also transported out of Auschiwtz prior to the Russian arrival. Strange that the SS left the several thousand who were too sick to travel behind, and alive. I will check if there is a more reliable source than Wiesel. PS Back again - telegrams and letters concerning the evacuation of Auschiwtz etal are in the FDR Library at Hyde Park NY. It appears there was negotiations between the Allies and Nazis about the transfer of inmates. The death march story was actually train/truck transportation according to inmate witnesses, not novelists.

Removed the word "innocent"

"One display case, some 30 metres long, is wholly filled with human hair which the Nazis gathered from the (innocent) people they slaughtered."

Removed the word because also criminals (albeit a small number of them) were executed there.

I have left the article as modified, but am fairly certain that only Jews (predominantly), Romany, Jehovah's Witnesses, Political prisoners and homosexuals went to Birkenau. I thought that what one might call "ordinary" criminals went to Auschwitz I, or to other KZ Lagern elsewhere. I could be wrong.--Anthony.bradbury 12:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Improving this article

I believe that a frank, open, and democratic discussion of the history of Auschwitz should include differing viewpoints. Certain doubts are inevitable and should be explained to the best of the contributor's abilities. Robert Faurisson was the first to describe the technical impossibility of the mass gassings in the areas designated as gas chambers with Zyklon B, as testified to by eyewitnesses. The following sentence is a clear statement of the core of Faurisson's argument:

"If the Nazi gas chambers were to work at all, they would have needed the following: absolutely perfect hermetic sealing; a special introduction and distribution system for the gas; a fantastic ventilation system to eliminate the gas from the chambers after the mass murders; a system to neutralize the exhausted gases; and then, quite separately, a device, incredibly clever in design and construction, to eliminate the gas which would adhere stubbornly to the bodies, making touching and carrying them a deadly business. The ventilation and exhaustion of cyanide gas is very time-consuming and difficult. It adheres to the human body, and penetrates the skin so easily that it would be hazardous to touch the body of a person killed with high concentrations of cyanide gas with the bare hands. Contact through the skin alone may lead to intoxication."

It would go a long way towards establishing the factual accuracy of the Auschwitz history if this technical interpretation could be explained by a competent authority. Until such time, I would expect this statement to stand without being deleted. The above statement, while Faurisson's, is of personal concern to me. Thanks with utmost respect.

Doremifasolatido 17:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

  • And, pray tell, what are Mr. Faurisson's technical credentials to support including this statement? We're not going to include extended statements from Holocaust deniers in this article, sorry. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I do not comprehend the viewpoint of holocaust deniers. As I understand the above point, Mr Faurisson is saying that in his personal view the technique used by the Nazis in the Auschwitz gas chambers is not possible, and therefore the eye-witness testimony of thousands of witnesses must be wrong. I suggest that he re-visits his database on the lethal concentration of inhaled hydogen cyanide. As witness accounts are clear that death in the chambers could take up to twenty minutes, it is obvious that the amount of cyanide present, while lethal, was vastly less than that which he is postulating; enough to cause the death of the chamber's inmates who were forced to inhale it, but nowhere near enough to persist in the way he suggests. Each chamber had two doors; an entrance, from the so-called changing room, and an exit into the crematorium. Witnesses, in some numbers, have stated that the Sonderkommando opened both doors, alowed the air to clear, and were able to work in the chamber. Please let us not produce abstruse unsubstantiated conjectures in the face of unimpeachable witnesses, all of whom were there, many of whom have left video or filmed witness statements, and a few of whom are still alive.--Anthony.bradbury 21:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

WHO THE FUCK are YOU to make that "conclusion", Holocaust God? Don't you understand the problem? YOU are trying desperately to exclude SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY from "holocaust deniers" because the person has not given you his "qualifications", while you who have NONE are SPECULATING as to how IT MUST HAVE HAPPENED so that you can continue to be a "holocaust believer". Don't you see the STUPIDITY of your position?

My position contains no speculation whatsoever, and there is in reality no problem, except that which is caused by deniers who, for their own ends, attempt to distort historical fact. You can be as strident as you like, although being abusive is both unnecessary and pointless, but nothing that you say will alter the obvious truth enshrined in the first-hand eye-witness accounts of thousands of survivors.--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's a better version:

As core arguments Faurisson claims that the Nazi gas chambers would have needed a perfect hermetic sealing; a special introduction and distribution system for the gas; a fantastic ventilation system to eliminate the gas from the chambers after the mass murders; a system to neutralize the exhausted gases; and, quite separately, a device, incredibly clever in design and construction, to eliminate the gas which would adhere stubbornly to the bodies, making further handling lethal.

The technical issues, indeed, should be discussed by people with scientific backgrounds. That's why it is brought up here on the Talk page. Doremifasolatido 18:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a scientific background. But the issues are not primarily scientific; the central issue is whether one does, or does not, believe multiple first-person eye-witness accounts. It would appear that if someone chooses to deny the Holocaust, then they remain unmoved by even the most compelling evidence. The Holocaust is NOT a matter for discussion; except for those with closed minds, it is a matter of fact. To discuss the Holocaust in any other way is to demean the survivors of it.--Anthony.bradbury 19:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

YOU are a liar and an idiot. If you have a scientific background, then WHAT IS IT? And, why should that be relevant to THIS discussion? If you disagree with what Faurison wrote, say WHICH part, then put forth your SCIENTIFIC evidence to refute that. Which part of 1+1=2 don't you understand? What difference does Faurison's motives make? He is either right or wrong scientifically. Address that, and with REAL FACTS, not "1,000 eyewitnesses", most of which have been shown as lies, like Elie Wiesel or Victor Frankl?

Fine. He's wrong. And furthermore, if you take the trouble to read through this correspondence you will see where and how he is wrong. I did not specify a specific number of witnesses, but some 7,600 inmates were liberated by the Soviet Army, all of whom were witnesses and many of whom have left written, filmed or video testimony. Given that the War ended 41 years ago, I assume that even you would accept that the testimony of a witness is not rendered invalid by their subsequent death? To stipulate this would wholly erase the entire history of the plane before the early years of the twentieth century.--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless any such dicussion would constitute original research, which is not supposed to be a part of Wikipedia according to the published guidelines for wikipedia articles. What is featured on this page is the generally accepted view of the vast majority of historians. If you want to challange that view you are free to do so through the normal channels for scientific research and papers, Wikipedia, however, is not a scientific journal and hence doesn't deal with such material. 83.108.157.39 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I seems the Holocaust is having PR problems these days. Too many people are starting to think for themselves and are asking the right questions. There are more doubters today than in the past. I suppose this is a mystery to some, but eventually the truth will come out.67.72.98.45 01:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The truth is already obvious to all except intellectually blinkered holocaust deniers.--Anthony.bradbury 12:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think YOU are the intellectual midget, or just a liar.

Calling me a liar is a futile and puny attack, in that I have made no original statements that might be called lies; I have merely pointed out that the Holocaust is well documented and well witnessed. Clearly, I will not change your mind. But that is your problem.--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust is NOT a matter for discussion; except for those with closed minds, it is a matter of fact. To discuss the Holocaust in any other way is to demean the survivors of it. The contradiction within your statement is oh so very comical.

This is a CLASSIC!!! And, in an "encyclopedia, too. Too funny.


It is so very sad that there are some ignorant people in this World, particularly self-opinionated ignorant Holocaust deniers, who appear to be utterly impervious to simple factual demonstrations. How many first-hand witness accounts would it take to convince you? And why do lack the resolve to sign your name?--Anthony.bradbury 13:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A "witness" account is NOT FACT. IT IS HEARSAY. Geez, do I have to teach you EVERYTHING?

That is a nonsense statement. Of course a witness statement of an event observed by the witness is fact, and is so regarded in a court of law and, indeed, anywhere else. Hearsay is when someone repeats what someone else told them which is not the case hear. What else can you teach me?--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, have you ever thought of signing your comments?--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'd call it a lack of thinking for yourself that is leading people to question the Holocaust. Too many are willing to swallow the lies put out by neo-Nazi groups and websites to be capable of seeing the truth for themselves: the evidence points to the inescapable conclusion that the Holocaust occured. FVZA_Colonel 10:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The answer Doremifasolatido is looking for is actually a pretty simple one... all of those requirements Faurisson reels off would only be neccessary for gas chambers meant to be a) efficient about gas-usage and b) safe for the people who worked in and around them. No need for a perfectly hermetic seal if you just keep pumping the gas in until the screaming stops, and as for lingering health effects, well, that's what the sonderkommando were for, and they were all replaced every 4-6 months. Nazi soldiers hardly ever had to soil their hands. --Arvedui 17:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely correct. I hope that the Holocaust denier who is working through this page will see this comment and think about it; but I fear he may not.--Anthony.bradbury 00:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


If you read Faurisson you would find that in order to met the numbers of gassed victims in the Auschwitz story you would have to do several gassings a day - almost continuously. Therfore without the ventilation, etc that he mentions you would have to "replace" each gang of sonderkommandos several times a day - several times each shift. The door to the gas chamber would start to get clogged with sonderkkommandos. Soon you would be gassing people in the yard. Go back and rehabilitate the ventilation system that other proholocaust groups have pushed for, otherwise this idea peters out.

Do the arithmetic. 1.5 million deaths in three years = 500,000 per year. That is 10,000 per week. Which is 2,500 people per gas chamber each week. A gas chamber held about 200 people, so that is perhaps twelve gassings per chamber per week. Call it two per day. This leaves more than enough time for the Sonderkommando to work, particularly as the SS guards were not unduly concerned about the health of the members of the Sonderkommando groups.--Anthony.bradbury 12:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Name Change

The UN granted Poland's request for a name change. Should we consider the same for the article? Agne27 16:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

In my view no. The Polish Government wanted, with some reason, to put the memeory of the camp behind and allow the inhabitants of the area to go forward without the stigma associated with the name. But the atrocities happened at Auschwitz - which of course was always called Oswiecim in Polish - and the name of the article should not be changed.--Anthony.bradbury 18:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

On a related topic, there seem to be conflicting reports about whether the name change was actually approved. Reuters (via Warsaw) says it was, AP (via UNESCO) says a decision was deferred. Also, there is no "United Nations Ministry of Culture" as per the article (the news reports obviously are talking about the Polish Ministry of Culture). Airminded 00:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

  • The proposed new name reminds me a bit too much of FYROM... --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, indeed it doesn't sound too fortunate, but still sounds better than, say, Polish death camp of Auschwitz. //Halibutt 08:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No name change

I've tracked down the official word from UNESCO -- the name is NOT being changed at this time. As I've been criticised for aggressive edits before, I thought I'd bring this up here first. I propose replacing the sentence starting "On July 12th" with "On July 12th, 2006, UNESCO deferred a decision on Poland's request, pending further consultation." With an inline citation to the UNESCO statement. Airminded 03:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as there were no objections, I've made the change. Airminded 17:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Auschwitz Figures

The part about the West assuming the figures quoted by the Soviet Union and Poland were false is rubbish, and it appears to be just an attempt to discredit those who have repeatedly challenged history and finally proved themselves correct on one point. This "we knew it all along" nonsense, supposedly quoted on the Auschwitz website according to the article's in text citation, wasn't even there. As it turn out, the link references the sentence immediately above it, talking about the Soviet and Polish figures. Granted, the "Four Million" factor isn't necessarily a lose thread that Holocaust deniers exploit and use to justify their claim that more "myths" exist to be exposed, but it is irresponsible on our behalf to distort the truth and say we know that it was 1-2 million all along, unless it can be accurately sourced.--72.92.0.83 01:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

  • But you're also putting in unsourced assertions. So work it out here in talk; you're asserting that the figures were used at Nuremburg; that should be easy enough to provide sources for. Also, please be aware of Wikipedia's three revert rule; you're over the limit. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, fixed. By the way, I thought this was an interesting list of numerical changes, but it comes from a more questionable site. The numbers are sourced, but since I didn't know what to do with it due to my own suspicions I'll just put it...here. [2]--72.92.0.83 08:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
When I was at school (I live in Poland) at history lessons I was told that in Auschwitz 4 million people were killed, including one million Jews. Later I was told that the number was inflated by communist authorities to hide the fact that Auschwitz was death place of mainly Jewish victims. Szopen 10:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Interesting.--72.92.0.83 20:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It is easy to get bogged down in figures, and assertions of men such as Hoess, who according to the testimony of his trial was proud of what he did, need to be considered carefully. It is not, I think, now possible to give the number killed at Auschwitz with any accuracy. It is, however, known that large numbers were exterminated at Treblinka and Sobibor, which predated Auschwitz, and also at Chelmno, Maidenek and Belzeç. Smaller, but still large numbers of Jews died at what one might call "ordinary" concentration camps such as Dachau, Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen, Theresienstadt and Ravensbrueck, and a wholly unknown number were killed in the ghettos and by the 'Einsatzgruppen' operating behind the Eastern Front. The total number of Jews killed is believed by all except deniers to be between six and seven million, on which basis a figure of one to one-and-a-half million in Auschwitz seems reasonable.--Anthony.bradbury 13:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The Bordello

I saw a documentary on the holocaust yesterday, and they had a segment on the bordello of Auschwitz. Aparently Himler decided (in 1943?) that valuable (non jewish?) prisoners should be rewarded with women, so they converted a barracks near the entrance in one of the camps into a bordello, staffed by female camp-inmates. In the documentary they interviewed an inmate, I think he was a Polish political prisoner, that was part of the camps "fire department", and thus deemed valuable enough to receive coupons to the bordello. He had gone several years without a woman, so he was quite pleased to get access, and in the interview showed no remorce for the suffering of the women forced to serve as prostitutes. I realise the bordello is a sensitive subject to some, but surely it merits inclusion in the article in order to paint a more complete picture of Auschwitz. --Stor stark7 Talk 16:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The bordello was in block 24 and is mentioned briefly in the article.--Anthony.bradbury 19:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Iranian researchers, Ambiguous sentence

Currently it reads: "In February 2006, Poland refused to grant visas to Iranian researchers who were planning to visit Auschwitz.[4]. Polish Foreign Minister Stefan Meller said his country should stop Iran from investigating the scale of the Holocaust, which Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has dismissed as false.". The problem is that one could easily get the impression that Ahmadinejad is dismissing the Foreign Minister's statement as false, when it is in fact the scale of the holocoust he has dismissed as false. I could not quite see how to reword it in a good way. 83.108.157.39 22:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Redirect from Auschwitz

Auschwitz is the German name of the city that was nearby the concentration camps. So, Auschwitz should redirect to the article about the city (in which the camps are mentioned) or to a disambiguation page, linking both the article about the camp and the article about the city.--AchtungAchtung 13:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The concentration camp is clearly the most common meaning of the word. The city is linked in the first paragraph. I think the current situation is fine. Kusma (討論) 13:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The Polish name for the city near the camps was and is Oswiecim, which was Germanised to Auschwitz. The Camps, being German, were always referred to by the German name. The city by the Polish one. I feel that there is really no possibility of confusion.--Anthony.bradbury 13:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It's true that the camps are more well-known than the city, but nevertheless the German name for this city was and is Auschwitz. If you enter Danzig there is also a redirect to the article about the city. --AchtungAchtung 18:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, alright. It is a fairly trivial point, but it is true to say that the names of towns and cities are changed when used by people from other countries; for ezample , in France London is called Londres, in England Köln is called Cologne, and so forth. It nevertheless remains true that the Camp complex, built under German control, was always called Auschwitz, while the Polish town had always been called Osweicim. It's only a usage thing, but the name of the place shoiuld not be allowed to obscure the essential issue associated with its existence.--Anthony.bradbury 10:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Heinrich Himmler

In the article, following is to be found:

"...Heinrich Himmler, chief of two Nazi organizations—the Nazi guards known as the Schutzstaffel (SS), and the secret police known as the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei).

Which is not completely true. In fact, H. Himmler was the head ("Reichsführer-SS") of the SS (1929-1945), Chief of German police (1936-1945), Reich Minister of the Interior (1943-1945), Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of Germanism (1939-1945) and several other functions. He was the factual utmost chief of the Gestapo, but also of all other Police and NSDAP-Secret Service (Sicherheitsdienst, SD) instances; the official chief of the Gestapo was the Amt-IV des RSHA (Bureau 4 of the Reich Main Security Office) Chef Heinrich Müller (1939-1945), which in order of command underlied the RSHA Chiefs Reinhard Heydrich (1939-1942) and Ernst Kaltenbrunner (1943-1945), respectively.

Thus, I suggest to change the text to:

"...Heinrich Himmler, chief of the SS (Schutzstaffel, armed forces of the Nazi Party NSDAP) and German police and Reich Minister of the Interior...--84.163.108.185 01:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It's just a form of words, isn't it. Himmler, as Reichfuhrer-SS, was the titular and de facto commander of the Waffen-SS and the Allgemeine-SS. The Reichsicherheitshauptampt (RSHA) which was headed in turn by Gruppenfuhrer (later Obergruppenfuhrer) Reinhardt Heydrich and by Obergruppenfuhrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, and of which Ampt IV was the Gestapo, answered to the Reichfuhrer-SS. If he was not in direct day-to-day control, he was certainly at the top of the chain of command.--Anthony.bradbury 18:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so. By this logic, you must come to the conclusion that the top of the chain of command was Hitler himself.

Himmler was leader of all three SS branches (Waffen-SS, Allgemeine SS, SS-Totenkopfverbände) and the deputy instance of all its offices.

My point is, that saying "Himmler was the chief of the SS and the Gestapo" is not correct. Chief of the Gestapo was Müller and Himmler, in turn was the highest authority of all "law-enforcement" and Nazi Party armed forces, not just Gestapo.--84.163.101.230 00:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, although the reality of the power structure at the top of the Nazi hierarchy was that everyone tried to get a finger in as many pies as possible to widen their individual power bases. But I have no objection to the article changing as suggested.--Anthony.bradbury 13:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Making this a Featured Article...

I have been working hard over the last little while trying to re-word and cite claims made in the article to raise it up to Featured Article status. What I have written so far can be seen in my sandbox. While it still has a long way to go, I would like to have others who have worked hard on the current article to add things and make suggestions. -- Underneath-it-All 19:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This thing has a long way to go to get there. I was very disappointed at the quality and quantity of references for an article on such a delicate and well-covered topic. Maybe I'll make referencing this a pet project of mine... Grandmasterka 07:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Victims

I have reverted the edit made by User:82 153 142 60. The comment about gypsies already exists a few lines higher in the article, and opponents of the regime, conscientous objectors (of which there were very, very few in Nazi Germany) etc were sent to concentration camps, usually Dachau, Ravensbruch, Sachsenhausen or Therisienstadt, not to extermination camps. Agreed, many of them died in these camps, but individually, not in the mass exterminations of the Vernichtungslagern.

The above edit was mine; I forgot to sign it. Apologies--Anthony.bradbury 14:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

supermarket

is it true that a supermarjket was built just next to it?--Tresckow 13:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There was no supermarket visible to me near either Auschwitz I or Auschwitz-Birkenau when I was there in July of this year.--Anthony.bradbury 14:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Not right next to it. About two or three minutes walk along the road from Auschwitz I (if you're walking towards Birkenau), there's a retail park now, which wasn't there three years earlier. Probably because, whether or not there's an old Nazi death camp nearby, Oswiecim is a fairly large and busy town. Proto::► 10:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

1944 Sonderkommando uprising

Not even mentioned, as well as the Ukrainian mutiny. --HanzoHattori 23:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Images

Now I finally got a decent computer, I can upload a few images I took when I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau a few months ago. They are all free to use. I will let you guys decide if you wish to use them or not:


One of the destroyed gas chambers at Birkenau (I believe they were dynamited just before the Russians arrived)Entry gate to Auschwitz The English language memorial plaque at BirkenauBirkenau camp Prisoner blocks at Auschwitz campPrisoner blocks at Auschwitz camp

Proto::► 00:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see these images in the article. I await consensus.--Anthony.bradbury 00:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


But where are the images of the kitchens, hospitals, gyms, swimming pools, .... the place actually was very beautiful - not in the league of some of the other camps but still very impressive.

In an article of this type I think we can survive without the sarcasm.--Anthony.bradbury 21:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Todeslager or Vernichtungslager

I changed "or todeslager" as an apositive to "extermination camp" to "Vernichtungslager." (really, changing less formal "death camp" to more formal "extermination camp.") Should the noun be capitalized, as in German? That's how I've left it. Jd2718 21:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Vernichtungslager, with the capital, was the normal official Geman usage. Todeslager was a more colloquial expression used in conversation within the SS and senior Nazi hierarchy.--Anthony.bradbury 21:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who called "vernichtung" the ugliest word in any language. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was. And in view of the concept contained in the word, I feel its ugliness is wholly appropriate.--Anthony.bradbury 22:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

rape???

Why would the nazis rape jewish women? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.1.206.20 (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC).

This claim is not specifically made, and certainly it was against the Nuremburg Laws and doubly forbidden by SS regulations for SS-men to have sexual relations with Jewish women, either by rape or consensually. But not all the women prisoners were Jewish, although certainly most were. The claim is not cited, and I have so flagged it.--Anthony.bradbury 22:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Can't we block this page from vandalism? Like new users are not allowed to edit or something? I mean people are obviously abusing this page on a very regular basis. I'm not an Admin (would like to be though), but something HAS to be done. --RobNS 01:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.