Talk:Auguste Rodin

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Good article Auguste Rodin has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

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[edit] Format

Ok, so I eliminated a spacing error (as I saw it), but the result is that now the text runs into the picture. I have no idea how to edit pictures, so I'm waiting for someone else to make it all work. Sorry about leaving a mess. Unschool 23:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

No worries. It was fine to remove the space and the picture layout problem has been around for a while. I've now shifted the second picture a little to avoid clashing with the text. -- Solipsist 07:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! I've been hovering over my computer 24/7 for a week, waiting for someone to fix that! :)Unschool 07:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] possible vandalism - about Burghers

Is this not vandalism with anti-french sentiment?

"We well know now that the French word for Resistance is "capitulation" and ultimately the town accepted the sculpture for its artistic power even though they were offended by its air of submission"

--5telios 14:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes quite possibly. I believe the French word for 'resistance' is actually 'résistance' [1] and has nothing to do with captiulation. On the other hand, the recent group of edits that introduced this section :Solipsist|Solipsist]] 15:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Auguste Rodin

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 15:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Locations

The list of locations has become something like a fetish, and is in dire need of a trimming to the essential eight or ten (which would be plenty!); right now there are 27, some of which are of marginal import, or less. However, I fear that cutting into this will engender some possessive or chauvanistic reactions. Can an experienced editor in the arts offer some suggestion? JNW 00:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

We could start by trimming the locations that don't even listed the pieces held. Or, the section could be split off into List of Rodin sculptures by location, for example. Truthfully, I don't think the article is in good enough shape now that this list detracts from it... –Outriggr § 00:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Good thoughts--thank you. In some cases, as in a Rodin-specific or other world class museum, there is no need to have individual sculpture listed. My concern is more for minor entries, collections that hold one or two pieces. I think I noticed the list because in a few more weeks it will be as long as the article. JNW 01:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I see. I think you should go ahead and trim it. When I mentioned the condition of the article, I only meant in relation to the fact that it's supposed to be a "core" biography! –Outriggr § 03:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Understood. It might not be there yet, but you have done good work to raise the level of the article. JNW 05:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Review

  • There's an ISBN finder on my user page - I can't find an ISBN listing on World of Rodin, 1840-1917. Amazon.com says it has an "ASIN: B000HKSXHA " I don't know what that means?
  • According to Amazon.com, Janson's History of Art has seven editions - do you have an ISBN on the third? I can't find it either.
    • Note, ISBNs aren't required, but they're a nice touch, and make it easier to find the exact version you used - I can't find it on Amazon.com
  • It would be good to diversify the Hale sources - it's old, and I can't find commentary on how good it is.
  • Referencing looks very good, but Quoted in Flash presentation of. National Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C.. Retrieved on 2006-12-12. should be NGA Sculpture Galleries: Auguste Rodin as title.
  • Since GroveArt requires a subscription, you might delink it from the title, adding it at the end as "Available at ... " Since it's a magazine, you're not required to add a URL, but some object to clicking on a URL and finding fee required (I don't).
  • Can you switch to one, consistent date format in refs?
  • I'm unclear on ref placement here - maybe you can investigate? (For example, as a result of this limit, The Burghers of Calais is found in 14 cities.)[30]
  • Found a weasle here: Although Rodin used several models for some of his sculptures, Camille Claudel is thought to be the main model for several of his works. (cite needed - thought according to whom?)
  • Not sure why, but this sentence structure isn't working for me - Lacking features such as arms, legs, or a head, fragments like The Walking Man, Meditation without Arms, Iris, Messenger of the Gods are notable examples.
  • I'd like to see more citations for two reasons: 1) it's a bio, and 2) it's about a "subjective" subject (art). For example: Rodin increasingly sought more soothing female companionship in Paris, and Rose stayed in the background. And: The two formed a passionate but stormy relationship, and influenced each other artistically. And: Decades after the charges of surmoulage early in his career, he was still sensitive to the controversy—he ensured that the size or design of his figures made it obvious that his creations were entirely his.

That's the surface stuff - I like to read a hardcopy - printing it out for tonight's bedtime reading, but I'm not great at analyzing prose :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

  • He played a pivotal role in redefining sculpture in the late nineteenth century, both excelling at and transcending the academic Beaux-Arts tradition. His work redefined sculpture at a time when painters such as Cézanne and Monet were redefining painting through Impressionism. Three redefines in two sentences.
  • Despite Rodin's dynamic character and his misgivings with the staleness of contemporary sculpture, Not sure what is meant by "dynamic" character, and misgivings about staleness isn't working.
  • Despite Rodin's dynamic character and his misgivings with the staleness of contemporary sculpture, he did not set out to rebel against tradition. He was schooled traditionally, and wanted academic recognition.[1] Yet Rodin's most notable sculptures were roundly criticized during his lifetime. Maybe connect the first two sentences with a semi-colon, and the "yet" doesn't follow. Or connect the second and third sentences - not getting the connection.
  • A pose might be considered too informal; the exactness of his forms too real; or the lack of a heroic theme found disrespectful. commas instead of semi-colons? Not sure.
  • Expand the final sentence of the lead into a paragraph, to summarize more of the article.
  • At 14, he attended "la Petite École", See WP:MOS - I think foreign phrases are italicized.
  • Rodin submitted a clay model of a companion to the École des Beaux-Arts in 1857 in an attempt to win entrance. He did not succeed, and two further applications were also denied. Connect the two sentences with a semi-colon - do we know why he was denied?
  • Rodin, attempting to combine Michelangelo's mastery of the human form with his own sense of human nature, studied his model from all angles, at rest and in motion; he mounted a ladder for additional perspective, and made clay models, which he studied by candlelight. Use an em dash for the attempting clause?
  • and The Age of Bronze was purchased by the state for 2,200 francs Hard date may need a cite.

I stopped there - it's really quite excellent, but since I know nothing of the visual arts and I'm not that good at analyzing prose, these are only ideas. Good luck - it should be ready to go quite soon! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Sandy! I've addressed some of your feedback, and other points, relating to the lead and referencing variety, will (hopefully) come later. The only point that stumps me is your comment, "Can you switch to one, consistent date format in refs?". I'm not sure what this means. Do you mean the (year) information after an author's name in journal cites? All other references are showing traditional date formatting--or do you mean in the internal markup? –Outriggr § 03:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I meant this:
  • Rodin, Famous Sculptor, Dead", The New York Times, November 18, 1917, p. E3.
vs. for example
  • "Auguste Rodin. His Sculpture And Its Aims.", The Times, 1917-11-19, p. 11.
and then, retrieve dates:
  • Ward-Jackson, Philip. (1) Camille Claudel. Grove Art Online, Oxford University Press. Retrieved on 2006-12-19.
It's not basis for an object, nor a big deal, but it's nice when dates use either one format or the other. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I don't see that, so it must be because of date preferences. My date format preference is set to "16:12, January 15, 2001", so the items entered as 1999-01-01 are translated. What is yours set to? In the cite templates I use [[1917-11-19]] because it's the most convenient way to refer to dates... in any case, I would have thought that the default date preference would change those to something more display-friendly. –Outriggr § 20:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

I think that this is definitely of GA quality. Nice work. I am including some comments below in case you want to go for FA and that would improve the article overall.

  • Sculpturally, he possessed a unique ability to organize a complex, turbulent, deeply pocketed clay surface. - This sounds a little poetic for the lead, in my opinion.
  • I think that the lead should say a little more about Rodin's life - reflect the article a little more than it does.
  • The predominant figure sculpture tradition of the time required an almost formulaic approach, and most sculpture was either decorative or highly thematic. - wordy (watch for this at times in the page)
  • The article has excessive commas. Ex: He was schooled traditionally in Paris's École des Beaux-Arts system, and desired academic recognition.
    • You might like commas, but this comma (like several others in your article) is used incorrectly. (I like the comma too, by the way). Awadewit 04:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Is it necessary to have an infobox?
  • Rodin was born in 1840 into a working-class family in Paris, the son of Marie Cheffer and Jean-Baptiste Rodin, a police department clerk. - awkward wording
  • Misfortune surrounded Rodin - is surrounded the right word?
  • If you want to go for FA eventually, you will probably need to cite a few more things. EX: In 1883, Rodin agreed to supervise a sculpture course for Alfred Boucher during his absence, where he met the 18-year-old Camille Claudel. The two formed a passionate but stormy relationship, and influenced each other artistically. Claudel inspired Rodin as a model for many of his figures, and she was a talented sculptor, assisting him on commissions.
  • Could you integrate the "Character" information into the biography section?
  • Could you say more about who Rodin influenced in the "Legacy" section? Awadewit 12:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for reviewing the article Awadewit, and for leaving comments. I agree with many of your comments. However, I like commas!, and I don't find the sentence you mention "wordy". If the article requires more references for FA, it may wait indefinitely, as I am not inclined to add more references from my main source so far—a book that would likely be reviled for not being scholarly enough. That said, at some point I also must fall back on the "likely to be challenged" clause of WP:WIAFA. The influence and connection between Rodin-Claudel is standard fare in all sources and not really up for debate. I did treat Rodin's influence under "Legacy", but his influence was not so much "on artist x or y" as on the entire artform, broadly and over many decades. Regards, –Outriggr § 01:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
FAC seems to require at least one citation per paragraph (tiresome though it is). You might keep that benchmark in mind. Also, I don't think that citations are necessarily just about proving controversial claims; they are also about proving wikipedia's legitimacy. I tend to overcite for just that reason. I would never litter my dissertation with the number of citations that I do my articles here, but citations are used here more for legitimacy than anything else. They also make the FAC reviewers happy. Awadewit 12:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A "guideline" that is read as a requirement for one citation per paragraph has the splendid effect of making criticism possible, even for those with no information whatsoever concerning the subject. Democracy in action! --Wetman 16:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, form before content. Awadewit, I've even seen it claimed that "Good article" status requires one citation per paragraph. I presume that's not the working standard; otherwise, fail this immediately! –Outriggr § 00:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Have you forgotten? "Form is content." Awadewit 13:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Various problems

1. Please include examples of where Rodin was a "painter and print maker " ? (all I've ever seen are watercolors -- which would better be called "drawings")

2. "Rodin played a pivotal role in redefining sculpture. The predominant figure sculpture tradition of the time required an almost formulaic approach, and most sculpture was either decorative or highly thematic.Rodin modelled the human body with high realism, and celebrated individual character and physicality"

If examples of "high realism, and celebrating individual character and physicality" can be found before Rodin (and they can) -- the above claim is disproven. Also -- if there's not much sculpture immedately after Rodin that has these qualities -- it would be very difficult to say that sculpture had been "re-defined"

(I realize that the footnotes provide a source for this claim -- but that doesn't make it true)

3. "Rodin was a naturalist, less concerned with monumental expression than with character and emotion"

Again -- a footnote does not prove a claim -- it only shows its origin -- and Rodin's "concerns" are a matter of un-verifiable opinion. If this phrase (which I would dispute) is going to be included -- it should be prefaced by "According to some critics etc etc.."Mountshang 15:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

1. A recent editor splashed a number of references to printmaking. Out of balance I'd say. Watercolor isn't painting? In addition to the sketchy, minimalist watercolors, I'm quite sure Rodin did more substantial painting—as the article says, during his 30s.
2. The WP:LEAD is not satisfactory and in my limited efforts to create one, I've not come up with much. WP:SOFIXIT does apply. The lead should summarize the content of the article.
3. Fine, but if it said "according to some critics", someone would claim that that was a WP:WEASEL phrase. With only one citation, the plural "critics" would not technically be truthful. We are left with trying to convey a general impression, and we cite one critic because it's better than nothing. In comparison to the sculpture around him, and immediately before him, #3 is undoubtedly true. We are not in the business of "proving claims". (What is truth in art?) We are in the business of WP:ATTributing reliable sources. –Outriggr § 23:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)



OK - I understand the principle of "no original research" -- but at the very least, the composers of an entry must choose among a variety of published authorities -- and as they do so -- shouldn't that choice be informed by their own experience with the items being discussed -- in this case --- with the other sculpture made before - during - and after the career of Rodin -- before presenting statements about his place in art history ?
The problem with having that experience, today, is that so many of the prominent sculptors of the late 19th - early 20th century are ignored in contemporary surveys of the period -- so that when you write that "In comparison to the sculpture around him, and immediately before him, #3 (Rodin less concerned with monumental expression than with character and emotion) is undoubtedly true." --- I have to wonder how much of those things you have actually seen ? How many names do you know ?
Even the entry as it stands, contains contradictions --- for one the one hand he had a "pivotal role in redefining sculpture" but on the other "Rodin did not spawn a significant, lasting school of followers" (as Maillol did).
Please be patient. Over the course of the upcoming months, I'll keep an eye out for various quotations that might be relevant to this entry.
Here's some surveys of sculpture from that period that might interest you:
http://mountshang.blogspot.com/2006/09/modern-tendencies-in-sculpture.html
http://mountshang.blogspot.com/2006/10/modern-french-sculpture-part-2.html
http://mountshang.blogspot.com/2006/12/taft-on-modern-german-sculpture.html

Mountshang 12:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] École des Beaux-Arts

Rodin was not schooled in the École des Beaux-Arts. He was never admitted there, and for such reason he went to the Petite École. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catalina elias (talk • contribs) 11:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The lead says that he was schooled in the École des Beaux-Arts system. From my research I have taken the system to include the Petite École, where he was admitted, as well as the Grand Ecole, where he was not. If you know otherwise, please advise. –Outriggr § 03:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rodin's tools

While we might like to include every piece of information on Rodin to make this a truly encyclopedic article, that is not possible. We have to carefully select items of true import. If you can find Rodin scholars who explain the artistic importance of the genealogy of Rodin's tools, we will include that information. However the citation you have included is to a commercial site, which is not reliable (see WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:ATT - these pages outline our policies on reliable sources). "Verifiability" is one of the cornerstone policies here at wikipedia. Thanks again! Awadewit | talk 22:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I have removed this information again. Please read these policies and source this information to reputable, scholarly publications. It looks like you should have no trouble doing that. Thanks! Awadewit | talk 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Is is possible for you to provide me with WorldCat number for Into the Fire? I can't find it in a quick google search or at my research library. I thought I could use the information in the article to add more of a transition from the rest of the "Legacy" section to the tools bit. Awadewit | talk 23:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I have not been able to verify that Into the Fire exists. It may, but it is incredibly difficult to track down. It would be very helpful if the editors who added it could point us to where we might find it. Thank you. Awadewit | talk 22:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • If the later history of his tools has any importance then it is to Snowden, not Rodin. Yomanganitalk 23:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Into the Fire is a supplementary publication to Art and Business News. I continue to dispute the exclusion of information about the whereabouts of Rodins' tools, or his creative successors. If I must, I will create a new page "Auguste Rodins' tools" or wherever it is most suitable, as I find it incredible that fellow scholars would suppress information in an encyclopedia. Cttomassotalk 10:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It does not strike one as a suppression of information, so much as an attempt to recognize suitability of content for a biography--the disposition of Rembrandt's brushes after his death, for instance, would be a footnote, at best. In other words, and this concept comes up time and again, not all information is of equal weight WP:ROC. JNW (talk) 20:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Locations of Rodin sculptures

The dry list that someone deleted is here. It would seem to be of use to the Wikipedia reader. --Wetman (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The list was commented out (hidden) before Someone's (my) edit. I originally commented it out on the basis that lists don't seem to be encouraged on more well-developed articles, and I wasn't sure if its completeness warranted its presence in any case. I'll paste it here, and someone can make a new article to develop it, if they like. –Outriggr § 05:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Locations of works"

[edit] Posthumous sale

Rodin's bronze "Eve, grand modele - version sans rocher," was sold for $ 18.9 million at Christie's auction in New York on May 6, 2008.Afp.google.com, Monet fetches record price at New York auction --Florentino floro (talk) 07:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)