Talk:August Burns Red

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[edit] Matt Greiner get signed

I'm not sure if it should make the article, but the drummer matt greiner got signed recently by zildjian (maker of cymbals) more about it here http://www.zildjian.com/EN-US/artists/artistDetail.ad2?artistID=3036 and also they released a christmas carrol during december on their myspace, purevolume and other places, a link to the purevolume page is http://www.purevolume.com/augustburnsred thanks peace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1337freek (talk • contribs) 23:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grindcore???

Some of their material contains blast beats, death metal vocals and riffs along side metalcore/hardcore punk main instrumentals. Maybe Techgrind?

Nah. Really not a grind band at all. --Wick3dd (talk) 01:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is ABR A christian Band or not

I'm not sure if their a christian band or not someone show me info that they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.22.136 (talk) 23:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

They're definately not a Christian band, seriously - christian deathcore? Lmao (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Messengers.jpg

Image:Messengers.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Name

The lead singer indicates that the meaning of their name is different from the one included in this wikipedia article. http://wisemenpromotions.com/wmpshowcase/august%20burns%20red.htm here is the link to the interview. He says one of thier friends got his hand cut off in august.

[edit] Demo not a studio album?

if not then i think it should be taken out of the studio album section. PhilCosby 07:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mathcore?

I'm pretty sure ABR is not mathcore. I don't know much about the genre, but if its roots are in bands like Converge, it doesn't seem reasonable to label ABR as mathcore. Could someone possibly provide a source or some piece of information indicating that they are mathcore? Otherwise I'm tempted to remove the genre. -- FatalError (talk | contribs) 03:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The source for metalcore doesn't mention mathcore but mentions the style of it having unusual time signatures and the like but no clear cut announcing them as mathcore. Maybe another reviewer names them as such? Oh and by the way, even that source for metalcore could be questionable since it's college-published and not sure about it but lets not go into that shall we? −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 06:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I asked that back when mathcore was one of the genres in the infobox. It's irrelevant now. -- FatalError 21:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I just realized the date after I posted. It was just a heads up and by the way someone just added it. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 02:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian

Yes ABR is christain they go to my church they are really cool guys. My friend is like friends with Matt. I live right bye Manheim where they live is not lancaster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.186.101 (talk) 05:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

well they say everyone in their band is christian. but they would rather not be consider a christian metal band. they say christian is their religon not music.Rockismorethanmusic (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

  • You are mistaken. In response to the removal of the Christian metalcore genre from the band August Burns Red, here are several sources disputing that removal. [1], [2], [3], [4], and [5]and what about this page, in our very own wikipedia, clearly billing August Burns Red as a Christian band? I'm putting Christian metalcore back up. ElisaENTiCiNG (talk) 14:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Rock

ok come on theres not one alternative rock bone in this band body. I mean that source said Becoming the Archetype is a alternative rock band also. I mean come on for real. a Alternative rock band is like. The Fray, Fall Out Boy, The Classic Crime, Anberlin,Aiden, Switchfoot. ABR is way way heavier then alternative rock.Rockismorethanmusic (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Death metal?

ABR is NOT death metal. That source is a link to an online store. It's not reliable. I'm removing it. Might as well cite Amazon and Borders too. -- FatalError (t|c) 02:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop it. ABR is clearly not death metal in any way, shape, or form. If you have ever listened to their music, you would know. Online stores are not reliable sources. Stop linking to them, pretending they are valid sources. The link to MTV is to their store, not an actually page on the MTV website. -- FatalError 01:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The sources that are up now for death metal are not verifiable, and thus not reliable. AOL Music is not a reliable source. Just because someone said it doesn't mean it's true. Those links are all databases that don't even have the genre "metalcore" in them anywhere. (Yes, I checked each one.) For example, Unearth is labeled alternative metal and post-hardcore on AOL Music. How can you call that reliable? Like I've said before, you might as well go link to Amazon and Borders, because that's the quality of the ones that are up right now. Linking to AOL Video is like linking to YouTube. And also, not a single one of those links follows WP:V. I am removing them and they are not to be put back up. If you have a good, reliable source, then feel free to put it up. -- FatalError 04:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You are not who decides which sources are reliable. The new ones were not online stores. Just because you do not like what a source says doesn't mean it isn't reliable. Why are you edit warring over this? You are clearly in the wrong here, you are removing sourced information, properly sourced information. No matter how many sources I add you remove it because it goes against your personal opinion. That is not how it works in case you didn't know. You can't go around removing things based on what you "think." I am providing sources, multiple well-known sources for my edits. You are just mindlessly reverting. Landon1980 (talk) 05:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, this has nothing to do with my opinion. The sources do not follow WP:V, like I said. You are not who decides which sources are reliable either. And you also removed neutral edits of mine that had nothing to do with genres, just to let you know. I don't want to start an edit war, so I'll get an admin or someone to check up on those. -- FatalError 05:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean to remove any of your other edits, guess I got confused. Sorry about that. I don't know why but the first sevral times I tried reverting your genre edits nothing happened. If an admin says AOL, MTV, and the others are all unreliable I will stop. Landon1980 (talk) 06:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Fatalerror on this issue as the current citations are extremely unreliable. Perhaps "deathcore" would be a more suitable genre for this band.--SilverOrion (talk) 06:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


I get a kick out of the two of you. How is MTV, and AOL unreliable? Like I said, tell me which sources the two of you deemed reliable for wikipedia? There are literally dozens of them out there. Since you two are the ones that decide which sources are reliable I guess you need to alert the rest of the community. The sources I added earlier meet the criteria of all policies regarding sourcing on wikipedia. They are third-party well-known reliable sources. Try finding me a person that has not heard of MTV or AOL music. That is just two of the many I added. Seriously, which sources have you decided to be fit for Wikipedia? This is hilarious even. Any source that doesn't say what you think it should is suddenly "unreliable." This beats anything I've seen on here so far. LOL your userpage even deems sources unreliable and is one big genre edit warring attack page basically. You go as far as to say which sources are unreliable lol. I had no idea that a single editor could deem sources unreliable and expect the rest of us to abide by his ruling. Landon1980 (talk) 07:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll go through each source then:

  • MusicAOL.com – as FatalError said earlier, this is a data base. Plus, if you look at the artist page, its actually categorized under “rock and alternative” http://music.aol.com/artist/august-burns-red/2166434
  • Windowsmedia.com – again, this is a database. The genre simply says metal. It also has a review from Allmusic.com, which is another unreliable source. Allmusic.com writers do not even know the difference between metalcore and black metal.
  • Video.aol.com – why would you even consider using this? It’s like citing Youtube.
  • MTV – is an online shop. MTV specializes in more mainstream style genres, their knowledge of genres such as death metal is extremely doubtful.
  • FYE – is an online shop.

If you want to strengthen your case, find an album review from a credible source. --SilverOrion (talk) 09:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Landon, you're wrong that your links meet Wikipedia's criteria. None of those sources are self-published works, they are simply databases just like Last.fm and PureVolume, and Wikipedia requires self-published sources. There is a reason MySpace and PureVolume are not realiable sources for genres, and your links are the exact same. We're not the ones deeming the sources unreliable, the Wikipedia policies are. -- FatalError 17:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to add an example of a reliable source: the source for metalcore.[6]. It is a self-published article by a credible source. It's not just a database that says "Genre: Metalcore", it is an actual article. The sputnikmusic review is also a self-published review by a well known music website. Again, not a database. The only semi-reliable source you have is the allmusic review on windowsmedia.com, but there have been many warnings all over Wikipedia about AMG's use, and it is notorious for clearly mislabeling certain groups. (For example, The Fall of Troy is labeled speed metal.) -- FatalError 17:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Purevolume is not acceptable because it is first-party, myspace isn't acceptable because it is merely individuals, or if it is the artist's page once again first-party. Will you show me the policy that says wikipedia requires self published sources? The only mention I can find of self published sources is discouraging the use of them. I know that isn't what you meant by self published I'm just saying. I have seen AOL used several times on wikipedia, as well as yahoo and others, and certainly MTV. It may be their store but it is still edited by MTV and is part of them. Also, where is the policy that says you cannot use online stores. I'm a pretty new editor so if you could show me these policies it would be helpful. Landon1980 (talk) 23:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

  • "Being used several times on wikipedia". - that doesnt actually prove that its RIGHT.
  • Theres no policy against the use of online stores, however it has been commonly accepted as an unreliable source. As Fatalerror stated earlier, there have been many disputes on other artist pages over the use of such sites.

--SilverOrion (talk) 06:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I'm sorry, someone brought this to my attention: I meant secondary sources, not self-published. I can't believe I did that. But anyway, many other fellow Wikipedians have warned against the use of online stores and media databases and such because they are often inaccurate, and Wikipedia itself says to use them with caution. Most of them only cover broad genres; the only reason ABR is labeled death metal on all of them is because none of them have "metalcore" in their databases (I checked), so they use the next best thing. And AOL Video is as unreliable as YouTube is, because it's essentially the same thing. If you were referring to Abort TV, the makers of the video, their review of ABR ([7]) labels them as metalcore and makes no reference to death metal. -- FatalError 18:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, right now you are the only one that has a problem with death metal being listed. Yeah, it is obvious silveronion is your sock account. You do realize sock puppets aren't aloud on Wikipedia right? Landon1980 (talk) 20:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? You're accusing me of sock puppetry? So I got into an argument with myself? You're only making that accusation because you have no rebuttal against my argument. If you had looked into it more you would have realized that it's obvious that he is not my sock puppet. I didn't even know who he was until he got the article for The Used protected. Do your homework before you make bold accusations like that. -- FatalError 21:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The argument is one of the things I base my opinion on. Classic behavior of a sock, you two seem to be in all the same places. Your argument is the weak side. I done what I was supposed to do. You are the one removing info, I was not even adding it. I put back up what you took down. Landon1980 (talk) 21:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm too lazy to have a sock puppet. I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of making (and regularly editing) the user page, for example. But either way, whether he is my sock puppet or not, it's irrelevant. I didn't remove just any info, I removed inaccurate info. Wikipedia says to use common sense when dealing with questionable sources, and I'm using common sense in stating that ABR is not death metal. It has no influence in death metal music. Anyway, I'm done arguing, I don't care enough about this article to get into an edit war with you. This is a fruitless debate. I guarantee that someone else will come and continue this in the future, but it's not going to be me. -- FatalError 22:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to tell people that some online stores called Underoath a pop rap band so that prooves that online stores are not to ever be used as reffrences. And I agree ABR is not at all Death metal but just Metalcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.76.43 (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Logging out and using your IP is also sock puppetry in case you did not know. Landon1980 (talk) 05:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Two people agree with each other... therefore it MUST be one person using two accounts!!! yeah great logic.--SilverOrion (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Not nearly as good removing sourced info because you don't like what it says. It is obvious there is sock puppetry going on here. Death metal has been in the list for a long time, now all of the sudden here come all these ppl against it. So you wouldn't object to me requesting a checkuser be done? You just don't understand how things work here; you can't remove information because it differs from your personal opinion. You need to go back and take a look at the five pillars of editing Wikipedia before continuing here. Landon1980 (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, stop accusing me of sock puppetry. Neither SilverOrion nor the IP were me. Go ahead and check me, I don't care, you're just wasting your time. And second, I removed sourced information because the sources are crap. But I have better things to do than argue with you. See ya. -- FatalError 01:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, this is a common tactic, you know. When a person cant sustain a logical argument, they resolve to making baseless attacks. So, have you checked me yet? How about you find some CREDIBLE sources, instead of avoiding the actual discussion. I'm not going to let this pass.--SilverOrion (talk) 06:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop edit warring. Both of you have violated 3RR. This is a content dispute, not a matter of simple vandalism, so you are wrong in feeling your reverts are justified. Seriously, come here and discuss it. Start a RfC or 3O if you need more imput. Do what it takes to reach consensus. However, if you continue to edit war, you both may be blocked. -Andrew c [talk] 13:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually neither of us have violated 3RR lately. Maybe you should learn to count before you throw around false accusations. Mtv, AOL music, and allmusic are used throughout wikipedia in music related articles. There is nothing else to say. The genre is properly sourced and has been in use for quite some time. The burden of discussion is on him, not I. Landon1980 (talk) 14:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you just attacked a guy who didn't even participate in the discussion. And on top of that, you need to learn how to count, because you have broken the 3RR several times. I still haven't seen a good argument from you stating why those sources are reliable. Just because they have been used a lot does not make them reliable. Even allmusic, which I actually considered a reliable source until recently, is often warned to be inaccurate, and should only be used as a last resort. But since we already have multiple sources citing ABR as metalcore, there is no need to use the last resort. Again, you have given no reason why your sources should be used other than the fact that they are used, which is not an argument. And the fact that it "has been in use for quite some time" does not mean anything. I'm re-adding the "verify credibility" note, DO NOT REMOVE IT until we get another opinion. In the mean time, someone could go request one. Thank you. -- FatalError 22:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Oh yeah, and one more thing I forgot to mention: all of those sources describe the album as death metal, not the band. There is a difference. For this reason, I'm removing the link to AOL Music, because on the actual band page, ABR is listed as "Rock & Alternative". Is that reliable? -- FatalError 22:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Note the IP address 76.177.242.179 is me. I thought I was logged in. Landon1980 (talk) 23:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Let me step in:

1) See this. MySpace and YouTube are out of the question and that means AOL Video too. It's not a question that MTV and AOL are popular (and they sure are) but as someone said they don't even have tags for metalcore and we cannot be sure if it's official or not and that the video was edited at all, etc. (sources that relate to this: [8])

2) Allmusic has been questioned as a reliable source especially for metal genres. Look at their tag "death metal/black metal" that pretty much shows that they can't differentiate extreme metal genres very well. Look at Killswitch Engage's allmusic page, they label them death metal/black metal, thrash and even power metal and progressive metal. Are you willing on using those to define them? Also on Hatebreed's allmusic page they use that death metal/black metal tag again. That can be said for those sources that take information from allmusic or etc which = questionable at best. (sources that relate to this: [9], [10], [11], [12])

3) In this article (for genres) theres a lack of real undoubtedly reliable sources that are third-party/second sources such as reviews/interviews/official biographies/etc that are not just self-published or unofficial. Blogs, music databases, etc are all non-reliable (see WP:RS). It is preferred that we use those official sources instead. (^see just above^)

What I don't know is if online stores are reliable enough (even by a well known company, etc) and I don't think they are death metal either but they may be influenced by it. We just need more undoubtable reliable sources for this kind of issue. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 23:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If you guys want to remove death metal I'll not revert your changes any more. To be honest I have never even listened to ABR, and I'll just take your word for it. I am still quite new at editing Wikipedia. If MTV and the others are truly unreliable then OK. I'm tired of edit warring and watching the page, and I'm sure you all know more about editing, etc. than I. Sorry if I made any enemies here. Landon1980 (talk) 05:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, don't be sorry. It was a good debate. I'll admit the edit warring was a little over-the-top, but I don't blame you for it. But yeah, listening to the band helps. ;) Cheers. -- FatalError 05:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)