Talk:Audi

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[edit] Pre-war rivalry with Mercedes-Benz

Auto Union and Mercedes-Benz staged a great racing rivalry in the immediate pre-war years, producing some of the most powerful Grand Prix cars (it wasn't until the 1980's turbo era that the outputs of the cars) and, apparently, some of the most exciting racing of the time. I've got a couple of books on the topic, but written from the perspective of the Mercedes-Benz team. Does anyone have anything written specifically from the Auto Union/Audi perspective? Robert Merkel

[edit] VW takeover

It would be great if someone in the know could add some info about the VW takeover. The two seem to be pretty inseperable today -- stewacide 20:58 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Fleshing out

Wow ... well, this page is in serious need of 'fleshing' out by an auto enthusiaist. If I have time, I'll try to do it, as I'm an avid Audi fan / owner. However, if anyone else reads this comment, please regard it as a plea to bring in some 'gear-head' and historical know-how.

I agree, I would like to find the time to do this as well. --AudiS4BiTurbo 06:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed... I think the place we should focus our efforts is in the Technology section, especially the first three paragraphs. I'm really curious where the "World record for mpg in a full-sized car, approximately 200mpg" citation is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomisina (talk • contribs) 00:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Volkswagen

Well, what happened as how I hear it is that in the 1930's, Audi had employed a designer from Porsche to work on their cars. The German government (or someone) wanted a really cheap and easy car to build for the people to use because they realized the populating masses need to get around. The Porsche designer came up with the Beetle concept and released it under the car brand "Volkswagen" ("people's car"). This influence can be felt in some VW cars have the same type of air-(or is it water?) cooled system Porsche's used too. Audi kept chugging along, acquiring another company in the 1970's (I think NSW) while their Volkswagen unit exploded with Beetle popularity since the Beetle came out. The company then changed their name to VAG (Volkswagen-Audi Group) (others think it stands for Volkswagen AG, where AG is the abbreviation for the German word "Aktiengesellschaft" which is english for Stock Company) to reflect that VW was more of an equal partner because without their capital, Audi might not have survived into the 80's. Audi as a car brand started becoming popular through rally racing. Their advertising unit used the "if it's good enough to drive 80 mph through dark forest paths in the snow, it can handle anything you've got to drive it through" notion and sharing the lead with Subaru in the All-wheel drive craze of the mid-80's. This goes off-topic I know, but more trivia for the readers. Subaru and Audi used all-wheel drive as a big selling point whereas Porsche and Mercedes had it available but their all-wheel drive systems weren't as reliable with Mercedes being the worst of the group, I hear it wasn't true all-wheel drive, that it was a hybrid between four-wheel drive and all-wheel drive. Audi took the luxury all-wheel drive road, Subaru took the economical all-wheel drive road and all others practically pulled out but a few manufacturers still dabble or offer all-wheel drive systems on a very limited basis. --LighthouseJ 17:37, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that this is historically accurate. Please see Ferdinand Porsche for a backgrounder on the Beetle. Jbetak 05:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vorsprung?

Your translation of Vorsprung durch Technik is not correct: "progress" translates "Fortschritt" in German. I'm afraid that I can't offer you a better translation, my English just isn't good enough. I would suggest "leadership", that's a little bit closer, but still not exactly the same as Vorsprung. Let me put it like this:

After on e wekk Lance Armstrong was only 20 seconds ahead, but in the Pyrenees his VORSPRUNG rose to more than two minutes

Who can help?--62.199.240.86 01:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)(from de:wikipedia)

To further help out the translation, I found an advertisement on the net for Audi. It poses the question "vorsprung" and then "what is it?". It then says "there are those who have it..." and shows Muhammed Ali fighting, Albert Einstein thinking and Marilyn Monroe with her famous dress, Dr. Martin Luther King at his I Have A Dream... speech, Mahatma Ghandi looks around a room and other imagery. The second part says "and those who don't" and it shows lazy guys sleeping, sipping coffee, falling asleep in a recliner and waiting for a haircut. The sequence ends with "and never will." The third part begins with "But you'll always know it, when you see it." and shows some older and powerful Audi racing films from earlier in the 20th centure and the 21st century Le Mans competitions and includes some clips from the 80's (my personal favorite time in Audi racing) of the Audi quattro kicking dirt up around turns and people desperately trying to get out of the way. Before the end, there's a radio-quality clip of what sounds like Dr. August Horch laid over film of him actually speaking that says "You've got to have the vorsprung in order to be in front." The rest of ad shows mostly racing clips intermixed with examples of vorsprung. If you are interested in watching it, I suggest you download a copy at http://wippermann.free.fr/audi/

Vorsprung means the passion to accel ahead of the rest, to be the best. --LighthouseJ 06:32, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I guess "vorsprung" could be loosely translated as "edge" or "competitive edge" in the context mentioned above. advantage is a more conservative translation and advancement is closest to "fortschritt", which is not what we are looking for IMHO. My best guess: "Edge Through Technology" Jbetak 06:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Apparently, Audi used "Advantage through Technology" in a 1986 UK advertising campaign. Leave it as it is then? Jbetak 07:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
"Vorsprung" (in this context) translates as "head start" or "lead" - so a good (non-literal) translation would be "Our technology gives us a head start over the competition"... if you try to maintain the three word slogan, taking the translation through the alternate meanings jbetak suggested gets you there... YggdrasilsRoot 20:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the site Jbetak links to above implies that Audi ever used the English phrase "Advantage through Technology" in its advertising. Rather, they've always used "Vorsprung durch Technik", and "Advantage through Technology" is that particular website's translation of the phrase. Nevertheless, I do agree that "Advantage through Technology" is the snappiest possible English translation. ("Competitive Edge through Technology", while being a more faithful translation, simply falls flat.) Angr (talk • contribs) 07:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I (native german) would also translate "Vorsprung" as advantage. While edge is equally fitting, "advantage through technology" has a better "feel" to it and doesn't mingle with the original balance of the slogan. "edge through technology" shifts the emphasis too much towards the end due to the discrepancy in both words' length. -- Benjamin, May 7th
FWIW, the BBC translates it as "Progress through Technology". [1] f(x)=ax2+bx+c 17:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

lol doesnt matter what the bbc says.. no, to be serious: you just cant translate it directly into english, there is so word for it in the english language but the actual translation in the article describes it quite well :) so, done ;)

[edit] Link suggestions

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[edit] Marque status (luxury)

Audi? Luxury? // Liftarn

I am sorry that I have to disagree with you again but yes Audi is a luxury marque.

For whatever it's worth - Audi positioned itself as competition to BMW in late 70s and early 80s. In turn, BMW started positioning itself as competition to Mercedes in late 60s and early 70s. BMW has long attained the status of a Mercedes' heir apparent, even outselling Daimler in its own market segment for the first time in recent years. Audi's brand might not appear as established in the luxury market; BMW has about a decade advantage on them. Jbetak 06:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Neither BMW nor Mercedes (perhaps with the exception of some Mercedes models) are luxury, they are premium cars. Luxury cars are designed and built to provide the utmost of style and comfort. Often they are at least partially hand built and often also according to customer specifications. I find it hard to fit a compact car like Audi A2 into that description. // Liftarn
I figured out that our disagreement is due to our difference in catergorical terms. Rolls Royce and Bentley are not luxury cars. They are ultra-luxury marques. Luxury and Premium automobiles are synonomous.

I disagree. // Liftarn 12:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

But if Luxury and Premium automobiles are synonomous then why not call it "Premium" then? // Liftarn 08:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I was about to post something along the same lines, but to your edit prevented mine from being saved ;-) Let me at least post the link I quickly grabbed from German Google: http://www.ciao.de/Luxusklasse_156555_3. All of the three German brands have models positioned below this class as well. The sematics and culutral use is quite likely different between Germany and the US .
Jbetak 16:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Is some models enough to classify the entire brand as luxury? // Liftarn 12:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
That's a good point. What would you call Lexus then - a brand specifically created to host Toyota's luxury models. Right or wrong, is it perceived as a luxury brand today - some 15 years after its inception? And how about Toyota? And Hyundai has a luxury model now too. Jbetak 16:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I would call Lexus "Toyota" (or "a rebadged Toyota"). I would call it Toyota's premium or prestige brand. If the bar for what constitues luxury would be lowered then almost every brand would have to be called luxury since almost every brand has a model badged as De Luxe, GL (Grand Luxe) or a version thereof (GLE, GLi et.c.). Then even Nissan Micra would become a luxury automobile since it has a Grand Luxe model. // Liftarn

In the US Mercedes and Audi sell only their upper range models. The lower range models you see in Germany are not available. This allows (particularly Mercedes)to have the luxury brand image. It's all marketing.74.130.52.177 05:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Multitronic Gearbox Link

I created the Multitronic article in order to link to it from this Audi article but it was removed sometime and now there's no mention of Multitronic on the page at all. Does anyone know why it was removed? The cloest match is near the end of the Technology section where it mentions a DSG gearbox, which is the Multitronic system, but there's no mention of Multronic or a link to it.

I don't want to change the article without some talk about it first in case there's a valid reason, if not, I'd change the article and they'll just get reverted.LighthouseJ 21:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead the way?

There are several lines in this article with such claims as Audi "leads the way" in technology and innovation.

I also read the same in many other automakers wikis, but its particularly bad here.

Isnt the claim "Audi leads the way" a claim after all? Therefor subjective?

I think such lines need to be removed.

If your teachers say the world is round, and your geography textbook says the world is round, do you think your teachers and textbooks are being subjective too?
If you don't think Audi leads technological advances then you aren't up to date on Audis' technological progress. LighthouseJ 17:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I do agree with the idea that the claim "Audi leads the way" is highly subjective. To "lead the way" in automotive industry it's very complex concept, there's no authority who can determine which company "leads the way", and it can not be proven (the claim "the world is round" can be proven). For me, and so many colleagues, Audi does not (and did not) lead the way in technological advances in automotive industry. Even more, Audi has been always a step ahead other German manufacturers, not only in technology, but in quality. Since the 1990's, Audi's desperate effort to be included in the "Porsche/Mercedes-Benz/BMW" premium class, has been an intense race, in which Audi has improved prices before technology. It's a personal opinion, but not isolated...
Let the facts speak for themselves. I can only see two instances of "Audi leads the way" style narration in the current article, but I'd suppoprt the removal of both. --DeLarge 13:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The object of jokes

The removed text: Audis are a source of jokes such as

Q: Why do Audis run so bad?
A: They have the piston rings in the grille.

I wonder why it was removed. We have similar sections for other brands, for instance AvtoVAZ. // Liftarn

because it's not funny 86.130.208.172 18:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

no encyclopedic use... and by the way totally unknown (did you just invent it?) and boring. Easy reason, isn't it? --84.58.9.107 21:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TDI and LeMans

Towards the end of the article, in the "Technology" section, there should be some reference to Audi's development of TDI, which won the 2006 24 Hours of LeMans.

[edit] Citation needed for 60 Minutes bashup

I don't have the know-how to do a proper citation, but here's the skinny: the 60 Minutes story comes from an article titled "It Didn't start with Dateline NBC" published June 21, 1993 in the National Review, by Walter Olsen. It can be searched for in the archives of National Review at http://www.nationalreview.com or seen online in full text at http://www.walterolson.com/articles/crashtests.html

I would be interested in more sources for this as well, since I'm familiar with this story as a child who grew up in a family that is rather fond of Audis and purchased them from before the scandal, through the court case and after Audi's name was cleared, all the way to the present day. My understanding is that there was a court case where a woman ran over her own child with an Audi, and sued Audi with this claim that Audis accelerate by themselves. The jury cleared Audi of all charges despite the extremely sympathetic plaintiff, since apparently it was demonstrated to their satisfaction that such spontaneous acceleration overriding the brake pedal was impossible (under the conditions described). According to my parents, the media covered the trial well, but said nothing about the exoneration at the end. The whole business smells like an attempt to sabotage Audi to me, although I'm willing to accept that it's simply yellow journalism rather than a conspiracy, but I just find it interesting that everyone at the time bought the story, and now everyone has forgotten that the whole thing happened... nobody in my generation is familiar with the story. --Skyfaller 06:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Our family was also really fond of Audi, and owned two. The second one, a red 5000, did however unintendedly accelerate when I was at an intersection, and almost caused me to get into a head-on collision as I was attempting a left hand turn. I was familiar with the news at the time regarding the unintended acceleration, and the fact that the pedals were close together, so I released my foot from what I thought were both pedals, looked down and placed my foot on the brake only, the engine kept racing, and due to my leg strength, I was able to control the 5000, but I can see how a weaker person caught unaware might not be able to control the car as the rpm's were past 5000. As it was, it still took about 10-20feet to control the Audi. If it didn't happen to me, I wouldn't have believed it. As it was happening I couldn't believe it. I find it degrading that this article tries to place the blame on the driver as there was a real dangerous issue plaguing some of their cars. In my over 800,000km's driving my various cars, trucks and motorcycles, it has happened only that one time in that one Audi. Please rephrase the wording so that the blame is placed where it belongs; i.e. with Audi and not with the operators/victims. ZYXW9876 (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First modern Audi

The 100 was NOT the first modern Audi, I´m sorry to report. Instead, it was preceded by the Audi 60/72/80/Super 90 series by about two years. I´ll try and find a reliable source for the facts and will alter this article correspondingly.

--Rybiczka 23:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squash that Beetle

Can anybody comment on hostility to the New Beetle within VW management, because it was too retro? I've heard Hochmut Vargas (?) had to hide US$300000 in Audi's budget for the development. Confirm & add, somebody? Trekphiler 09:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sd-Kfz 222 hp?

This article says the Sd-Kfz 222 had 81 hp, but the Sd-Kfz 222 article says it had 90 hp. Which is right? --Jeff Worthington 19:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] VIN decoder link

Explain why my link is no good here, but VIN decoder links (including mine) on many other vehicle manufacturers are welcome on those articles. Please stop reverting me when others aren't--see Buell Motorcycle Company history--links were cleaned up there and a VIN decoder remains. It is welcome as a part of the article. I'm putting the Audi link back up. Corey Salzano 13:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that it should be included in the article. I don't feel that it meets the spirit of WP:EL, even if I can't find a hard and fast rule. If you look at WP:EL under What to link, it includes "Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?" I don't think it's useful in the context of an article. Very few people are going to come to the Audi article and want to get more information by going to a VIN decoder. If they wanted to go to a VIN decoder, they would have searched for a VIN decoder in the first place. --Matt 13:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
"Very few people are going to come to the Audi article and want to get more information..." Isn't that the point of navigating to the article, though? To get more information? What about articles like Harley-Davidson that have VIN decoding information in the article. If a VIN decoder link at the bottom of the article is not to be included then shouldn't we edit out all VIN information on all vehicle articles? Thanks for the reply! Corey Salzano 14:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
That quote is out of context, in fact missing the critical part of the sentence. "Very few people are going to come to the Audi article and want to get more information by going to a VIN decoder." The Audi article is an article about the company, its technology, and its history, and to some extent its line-up, not about how it numbers its vehicles.
I haven't read the Harley article fully, but from a quick search I don't see "VIN decoding information in the article", just a link to the same web site as has been removed from here. I'm not saying VIN information can't be pertinent in the right context, but I would guess that a VIN decoder is going to be out of context for most auto manufacturer articles. --Matt 15:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't think a full quote was necessary since your entire original message is on this same page. "I would guess that a VIN decoder is going to be out of context for most auto manufacturer articles." Yesterday was the first time anyone has reverted my edits (on 3 articles in different topics!) My first impression was "wow I'm being targeted here". If you review the Buell Motorcycle Company history as I recommended in my original post on this page, external links were whiped out but a VIN decoder link remains. I'd like to talk to IrishGuy and see why he thinks differently than other editors. Corey Salzano 15:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on the Logo and Brand Name

Not sure of the origin of this information, but it's interesting, and I would presume, accurate. I have requested more info on the origin from the actual website

http://chickencrap.com/c.php?c=1600 (just under the Alfa Romeo bit)

Could be suitable for the other Car Manufacturers, and the other corporations too. Cheezehog (talk) 23:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)