Talk:Aubrey–Maturin series

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[edit] Title

My (British) paperback copy is called The Mauritius Command as well, and the copyright page has no indication of its originally being published without the definite article. Loganberry 01:13, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge

I plan to merge the content from all the separate articels about the books in this series into the series article. Most of the book articles are quite short, stubs or near-stubs, and i think the resulting combined article will be a significant improvement. Of course I will leave redirects at the titles of the various books, and add one at "The Truelove". I will also clean up some of the content along the way.

I am announcing my intention in advace so that anyone who has strong feeligns on the matter can comment here. Obviousl a merge does not require a vote or anyones approval, but equally obviously i don't want to do this work if lots of people would only revert it. DES 15:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems reasonable and if the pages already exist, then if someone writes a long article about one of the books we can move the content there and link from here. I like the box with all the novel titles listed, could we keep that and have them as internal links to the separate books. Dabbler 17:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I had in mind putting them (the various books) in separate sections, so the TOC would serve the same function. DES 17:30, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Seems reasonable. Don't suppose you'd like to reference the real events that are fictionalized in each case while you're at it? :-) --SarekOfVulcan 19:14, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
The ones I know for sure, and can recall accurately, of course. Others perhaps I'll add soon.DES 19:19, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be an improvement; go for it. Paul Tracy|\talk 00:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

As you can see, I'm now more than half done, I'll finish as quickly as I can. DES 00:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Baasic merge now done -- lots of expanson and cleanup left.DES 01:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Crozet, a possible candidate for Desolation Island
Crozet, a possible candidate for Desolation Island
Kerguelen, a possible candidate for Desolation Island
Kerguelen, a possible candidate for Desolation Island
Forgive me, but I question the wisdom of a merge. It doesn't seem to me that it really accommodates further expansion of discussion of the unique aspects of some of the novels.
Desolation Island is my favourite. I've been a member, for the last eleven years, of one of the mailing-list devoted to discussing the works of Patrick O'Brian. I couldn't list for you all the scholarly topics my fellow list members and I have discussed.
One of those topics was whether the Desolation Island in the novel was intended to be a particular real Island, or an amalgam of several Islands. Well, I have access to better tools now. I just prepared a couple of maps of some of the islands that were possible candidates. I was considering adding thumbnails of those maps to the Desolation Island (novel) article. Or alternatively, one map that showed all the candidates. But I don't see how that information could be made to fit in your design. It seems to me that your design provides for a minor expansion the summaries of the novels, but no room for summarizing critical reviews or scholarship around the novels. -- Geo Swan 13:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Cool maps, but surely Desolation Is. cannot be The Crozet Islands since they sail past them early in Ch.9??? Personally I'd be interested in much more discussion on the books that the new merge allows, but I'm not sure that WP is the right place for that. I think that your mailing list is probably better for that. Much as I love the A-M series, I think WP would be better served with a fairly short, encylcopedic view of the series instead of detailed lit crit of every volume. So I quite like the idea of the merge, but I'd like to see more interesting content in it. Thruston 16:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Cerrtinaly critical and anylytcal issues should be covered. Of course remeber to source them, and pay attention to the no original research policy. If the discussionm of a particualr book or a particular topic in the books gets large enough, a separate page could and should be split out. But that might not be by book. For example, a section on "Correlations with real histroy" or "real places in the series" might include the kind of discussion you spoeak ogf, and might soonm be large enough to justify being split out as a separate article.~
By the way, the two map images, as the show up on my screen viwing this page, seem very nearly identical, and don't seem to clearly identify the differen islands involved. I think that showing the maps at a larger scale, or perhaps the images at a larger size, or both, might help illustrate the issue better. DES 14:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Oh, in considering expandign the plot summary element of any book's section, or splitting pages, you might want to look at Wikipedia:Summaries which is a guideline page. DES 17:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Master & Commander

includes comments copied from the separate talk page.

What is the calendar date when the novel ends?

If we use Thomas Chochrane's capture of El Gamo as a guide, then Master and Commander must end some time after May 6th, 1801...

The historical Battle of Algeciras which Aubrey witnesses as a prisoner took place on July 8th or 9th 1801. His court martial for the loss of Sophie must have occurred later than that.

[edit] Penniless

My edit summary overran. Its clear that Stephen is penniless for all practical purposes at the start of M&C. He can't afford food or lodging and owes money and has to get an advance on his pay. He may have resources elsewhere but not accessible. Dabbler 30 June 2005 19:30 (UTC)

I'll let it stand for now until I can re-read and figure out at what point he gained enough money to make the purchase he made in RotM. I was under the impression that he had quite a bit even before he inherited from his godfather. --SarekOfVulcan 30 June 2005 19:40 (UTC)
Nope, you were right, I was wrong. I'm currently in The Thirteen-Gun Salute, and he talks about his previous lack of money here.--SarekOfVulcan 19:11, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I am just commenting about his state in Port Mahon at the beginning of M&C. Clearly by the end of M&C what with prize money and naval surgeon's pay and what have you, he is much more comfortably off. Dabbler 30 June 2005 21:21 (UTC)

He does mention in M&C (during his conversation with James Dillon aboard a captured powder-barge) that he has an estate that while it is mostly mountains or bogs, may bring in upto a thousand pounds a year, if his tenants all pay their rents.
So not entirely penniless - he has a theoretical thousand a year from his rents alone, never mind the prize money that Aubrey kept raking in at regular intervals. He didnt have a penny on him in Minorca though, I'll admit that.
Even after his godfather's death makes him quite rich, he still remains threadbare and unshaven for most of the time, and doesnt spend much at all except to gratify his tastes - natural philosophy, his personal fight against Napoleon's regime, and one drug or the other. Then there was the incident in, I think, The Mauritius Command, where he pulls a thick wad of banknotes out of his pocket, from which he randomly peels off high value bills to lend Aubrey money, not knowing or caring just how much he has.
A naval surgeon's pay being five pounds a month - or sixty a year. That was a reasonable income for the early 1800s. I remember a Sherlock Holmes story "A case of mistaken identity" where Holmes mentions that a private income of a hundred a year is more than enough for a single woman to live comfortably and even travel a little.
All the Holmes stories were set in the late 1890s and early 1900s and I can only assume that inflation must have taken its course for at least part of the 19th century, so that 60 a year was, while not a princely sum (such as would keep "a gentleman in style"), perfectly adequate as far as salaries went. Remember - Aubrey rents a 10 bedroomed house early on in "Post Captain".
srs 09:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
You might want to re-read that conversation in M&C---it is Dillon with the estates that bring in £1,000 a year, not Maturin. Maturin has his estate on main-land Catalonia---the caved in castle and the sheep that he visits in Post Captain, and describes to a gleeful Mrs. Williams about "rack rents" in Spain----"why we make them pay for the use of the instrument." But in M&C he states that he does not have access to even that income while stranded on Minorca. --Woland 00:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Right you are srs 03:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spy or Agent?

Is it fair to call Maturin a "spy"? I will try to get an exact reference, but I hazily recall Stephen's angry words when someone suggests that he is a "spy" -- he hates an informer more than anything else (apart from Buonaparte). Can we change "spy" to "intelligence agent"? If no-one objects I shall do so Thruston 09:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Is =t is true he doesn't like to be called a spy. He also doesn't like being called a bastard, or a liar, but he is both, at least he is a liar from time to time. I don't think he would call himself an "informer" -- in his context that would be one who betrays his friends or associates by informing, and who does so for money or advantage, or perhaps to gratify emnity or spite. He does, at times, go into foreign territory in secret or under false names or descriptions, for the purpose of learnign and reporting secrets. I don't think this can be called anythign but spying. We might want to note that he dislikes beign described in this way (He also refers to lies as "certain nessicary dissimulations" IIRC). DES 15:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
It should also be noted that his role as an intelligence agent is nowhere mentioned in the first book, but seems fully established in Post Captain -- where and when adn how was he recruited? I don't think there is any answer anywhere in the books, but perhaps the question should be mentioned. DES 15:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
In Thirteen Gun Salute (I think without a copy to hand to reference) Stephen is reviewing his early diaries and notes that he started his contacts with British intelligence with a cousin in Barcelona round about the time of Master & Commander. Perhaps he was spotted as a possible agent then and recruited later on his return to England? Dabbler 18:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that Dr Maturin's activities as an intelligence agent are noted in M&C, but you have to read between the lines a bit. Aubrey is only made aware of the Cacafuego through Maturin, and Maturin learns of the ship during the time he spends in ashore in Catalonia. Theoreticaly, this could just be some gossip that Maturin has picked up, but when Aubrey asks if Maturin could collect any information about the Spanish ships and convoys, the doctor's reply is, "Certainly I could, if I chose to play the spy. It is a curious and apparently illogical set of notions... that makes it right and natural to speak of the Sophie's enemies, yet beyond any questions wrong, dishonourable and indecent to speak of her prey." I am working from Norton's publication of the text (ISBN 0-393-30705-0, p251). Dr Maturin may not have any specific mission that takes him to Catalonia, but his notions of what is appropriate seem to be very well developed for someone who is new to the work.
On the other hand, O'Brian allegedly wrote this novel as a stand-alone, so those scruples may merely be the in nature of Dr Maturin's native character; the appearance of intelligence work may be nothing more than rewriting (and misinterpreting) Maturin's history. Yet I am inclined to think otherwise, since Maturin had been active in the Irish independence movement. His activities in that movement are only refered to obliquely, but even in M&C they look to be concerned with intelligence at one level or another; consider pp 169-79, when he has a long discussion with Lt Dillon. Admittedly, this would be intelligence against the English, rather than for Britain, but the work would be of a similar kind: spying or intelligence. More to the point, Post Captain begins in late March or early April of 1802, shortly after the signing of the Peace of Amiens. With M&C finishing up no earlier than the middle of July, 1801 (as discussed above, on this page,) this leaves no more than nine months between them. I doubt that Maturin could become a trusted intelligence agent in that amount of time if he hadn't yet been recruited.
Of course, it's only a novel; there may be no correct answer. --Badger151 03:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-merge histories

These records are needed to keep to the strict letter of the GFDL, but are not appropriate in the article text, so I list them here for the record. Gdr 19:43:14, 2005-08-12 (UTC)

[edit] Reader Comment moved from Main page

++++Reader Comments++++

These minor discrepencies within the books, such as Jack Aubrey's loose tongue in "Fortune of War", give the character a more realistic feel. Real human beings do not function the same way that fictional literary characters do. Real people are able to freely act "out of character", but if a person in a book does that it is considered "inconsistant".
- Lugi 14:17, 19 October 2005 65.23.110.237

[edit] Desolation Island is not Kerguelen

I removed the reference about Desolation Island being Kerguelen because Aubrey says explicitly that it is not in The Thirteen-Gun Salute, chapter five:

'Kerguelen is what some people call Desolation Island, is it not, sir?' asked Richardson.
'So they do. But it is not our Desolation Island, which is smaller, farther south and east. [...] I believe there are a good many places that have been called Desolation at one time or another, which is a pretty comment on a sailor's life.'

Stephen Turner 10:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I have aded back a mention of Kerguelen because it is a well known and obvious candidate and we should address what O'Brian writes about it being Kerguelen.
Yes, thanks, your version is better. Stephen Turner 11:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anachronisms

I don't think Brigid should be referred to as 'possibly autistic' without making it clear that the book doesn't use the word. If it's to remain in the article a discussion list claiming the same thing should be cited, or I think it violates the 'no original research' policy. Njál 17:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I want to know what condition O'Brian was thinking of, not what someone unnamed reviewer thought of. I've removed it for now. Someone can restore it if there's a authoritative source. Stephen Turner (Talk) 07:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
IMO O'Brian probably was thinking of autism, he just didn't say so (he did, however, refer to Brigid as a 'fairy child' which has been used as a reference to autism, amongst other things), which means we can't either, unless it's phrased in a very cautious way: "...and may have had what would today be called autism," or put in some sort of 'Fictional characters who may have had autism' list, as it is a point of interest.
Here's the first post of a thread from the POB archive: Was Brigid Autistic? Njál 13:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
You're probably right. I didn't mean that it wasn't autism in O'Brian's mind, just that it would be nice to have a source for that, rather than assuming. Stephen Turner (Talk) 15:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Main characters

Both 'Jack Aubrey' and 'Stephen Maturin' redirect to this page, so could the (very small) section on 'Characters' be expanded to discuss them properly? Alternatively, though I like having the books gathered in one article, separate articles for the main characters could be a good idea. Three reasons:

  • there's a distinction between a book (with an author and details of publication) and the story it contains, and important features of the story (e.g. the protagonists) are both separate entities and deserving of articles
  • too much in one article is clumsy
  • other book-related articles do it. This side of Wikipedia seems to be polarised between the two types of organisation: individual articles for every minor character (e.g. the Artemis Fowl articles, which are a mess), and having everything lumped together or absent (often the case where a book is named for its lead character, who would otherwise have his own article). Is there an organisation policy which covers this? In this case, I think an article called something like 'Secondary characters in the Aubrey-Maturin novels' should be created as well.

Isn't there a Wikiproject organising the Patrick O'Brian stuff yet?

Njál 17:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the evidence for the statement that in his role as a naturalist, Stephen Maturin is based upon Banks? Certainly Banks was a first class naturalist and, in his younger days, an explorer. However, to my eye at least, if anyone was a proxy for Banks it would have been Sir Joseph Blaine given that he was more settled in London and more obviously of the right Banksian background than Maturin. --Canadian Osprey 14:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifying the 'Far Side of the World' section

This section is very unclear about which ship is based on which:

The exploits of the Norfolk are based on those of the USS Essex.

The novel provided much of the overall plot structure for the 2003 Peter Weir film, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, though the USS Norfolk was changed to the French privateer Acheron, and episodes were also taken from other books in the series, including Master and Commander and HMS Surprise. The Acheron was based upon the USS Constitution.

...So I'm getting the impression that Acheron is based on Norfolk, which is based on Essex, which (though a real ship) is based on Constitution, only I'm not clear whether it was the historical or fictional Constitution...

Or to make sense of it, is there no link between the Acheron and Norfolk at all?

Njál 18:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

There are two senses in which a fictional ship can be "based on" a factual one: in action and in construction. The real actions of USS Essex inspired the fictional actions of USS Norfolk which in turn inspired the fictional actions of Acheron. However, the construction and appearance of Acheron were based on that of USS Constitution.
Another example of these two senses of "based on": in the novel Master and Commander, the actions of HMS Sophie are based on those of HMS Speedy. But Sophie's construction is based on that of HMS Vencejo.
I agree that the article is unclear on this point. You are welcome to fix it. Gdr 23:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed DeMerge

I came here as part of the WikiProject Novels group with the intention of adding conciderable input to this significant series of book by a wonderful author. I can see that many here appreciate O'Brian in much the way I do. However partly out of esteem for the chap and this series of novels I would have to say that this merge does the series a disservice. I believe each of these stories is worth an article of at least a page and a half and in some cases more. If that is done in the context of the merged article we are looking at a 'Large' download for the average surfer to get information on any one book. A lot of very useful information is presented in the article as it is and provides a good overview of the series, however that does restrict the potential for writing up information for each one individually. It may have been that the history of this artcile comes more from the time when most individual articles were little more than one line stubs, so I can understand, this is now not really the case. I find myself with enthusiasm for contribution and familiarity, particularly with the earlier books, tempted to leave the thing well alone and take my efforts elsewhere. Is this a good thing to encourage. I would not intend to damage anyone's contribution and would think that 'thumbnail' descriptions of each novel would be good to have in the series article. Also I think the 'Series' article should be about the 'Series' as a whole as the title suggests rather than each book. Please debate here a De-Merge. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 11:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I did the merge, several months ago -- look at the history. It is my general feeling that fewer larger articles are better, particualrly for works of fiction. What would go in this page and a half per book? a plot summery? not IMO a wonderful idea. Critical analysis? beware of WP:NOR. I woudl also add that when I did the merge msot of the separate articels were mere stubs, and added little. I think that this stayig in its merged state is the better option at least for the time being. DES (talk) 17:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I appreciate your interest in these novels and the amount of work you have already done on them. I also imagined that your opinion would be as you say, due to the merge being your idea already. However looking back on the history and the original debate which gained four comments other than your own. In summary there were two for, one against with the most cogent reasons offered from anyone, and one who seem cautiously for but doesn't seem to anticipate the loss of the indvidual articles as well, which is partly my point. And by the 'the box with all the novel titles listed' he must mean the automatically generated TOC, otherwise I can't quite see what he is driving at. Also your debate appears to start on the 14 July and the merge then appears to be substantially completed by the 16 July, where was the time allowed for people to comment. I don't like to get to worked up about these things but I does look as though you rather drove this one through. I certainly hear what you are saying about the WP:NOR issue and an critical analysis would need to take due notice of such concerns. In no way do I want to compare the two authors (very different) but I do think in structural terms the Tom Clancy article and the associated novels give a better pattern (I have not contributed to this by the way) with the possible exception that a series article for the Aubrey–Maturin series is right and proper. This series of novels is of such quality that they should have the best possible editorial treament here. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 18:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I meant the original info box Template:AubreyMaturinSeries (which has since been deleted) in the separate articles, not the automatic TOC which works OK but didn't look as nice. My attitude was that although at the time the books were a lot of stubs and they might not deserve separate articles then, I believed that they would eventually grow so that separate articles would be warranted and as we now see demerging would become a topic for discussion.Dabbler 20:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I might, if doing this again, have waited longer. Around that tiem I was doign a number of mergesd in the interst of helping clean out the book-stub categories. In mostcases i jsut went ahead and did the merge withotu discussion in advance at all -- which is specifically endorsed by WP:BOLD. In cases where everythign being merged was a stub I think no discussion is really needed. Here most were stubs but some were not. Note that the firtst serious commetn oppsoing came after the merge had been compelted, I did not find the arguemts in that comment persuasive, but if people in general feel that a de-merge is a good idea, so be it. Perhaps it would be best to start by exapndign indvidual sectiosn, and when it seesm that one or more are large enough that a split would be proper, it can be done. Note that there are ways to splt other than a separate page for each book -- ther might be one articel for the series and one for critical response. i really feel taht the reader is better served by having all the content in one place unless/untill there is enough that a split is needed because the page is too large to handle easily. But I am only one voice. DES (talk) 18:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • In any case, lets not discuss whether last summer's merge was properly conducted or not -- seven months is a long time on the web -- let's discuss what should be donme now. A merge is never a bar to a future split, after all. DES (talk) 18:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I like the attitude. Concensus is good. And I understand the 'time issue' you talk about above and must admit to doing similar things myself. How about we augment one of the titles up to give more an idea what I have in mind and then take more of a view of a split possibility then. I can see some of the books even now need more work and input, mostly towards the end of the series. I noticed the inclusion in the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books) page, but also notice it is the longest there. I'll start having ago soon on one if you (or any others) don't raise any objections to this trial (in situ) approach. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 18:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
(after edit conflict with comment below): I am surely not agaisnt adding proper, relevant, and sourced content. That should only improve the current article, in any case. If after you add such content it looks like a split is a good idea, that can be discussed and carried out. I am NOT saying "this will be split only over my dead keyboard" or anythign of the sort. I do NOT claim to own the article -- others added far more of the actual content than i did. Note that if we split back to the original pages we have to be a little careful about how this is done in order to preserve the history for GFDL purposes, but that is a technical matter only. DES (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, might I suggest you post it to a user subpage for now? Then, if consensus likes it, you can move it to the new article.--SarekOfVulcan 18:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Last summer's merge came as a very unpleasant surprise to me, and it made the addition I wanted to make worthless.
  • Merges like last summer's show linear thinking. Knowledge is a many-dimensional network, not a linear track. The old-fshioned linear document style, that was the only style that was convenient in the days of paper documents, allowed only one track of association between facts and ideas. There were crude mechanisms for authors to fork their discussion into two of more directions -- footnotes, sidebars, captions all allowed authors to briefly fork their discussions. These mechanisms were deeply inadequate, but they were all that we had. We no longer need to be limited to linear documents. The wikipedia is a wonderful tool for allowing us to tie knowledge together in non-linear ways, but, some of us, are still blinkered by the linear heritage of traditional paper documents.
  • Merging and redirecting articles that can stand on their own leaves readers with only one transit through the network of knowledge. It can be a grave disservice to those with different interests than the person who thinks they should decide one correct hierarchy everyone else should live with.
  • For example: Consider the wikipedia reader who is interested in the Lord Byron, the poet, and the Byron family. O'Brian is subtle, he doesn't bat us over the head, in The Unknown Shore, that the hero Jack Byron is the grandfather of the poet Lord Byron. But he was. In Desolation Island, my personal favourite, there is a key passage where Pullings and Maturin have a discussion over Pullings grandfather, who had sailed with foul-weather Jack Byron, both during the events described in The Unknown Shore, and later, during other voyages, when Byron was a senior officer, and Pullings grandfather was a Boatswain. The reader who is seriously interested in all things Byron should find it easy to traverse from [[Lord Byron]] -> [[Jack Byron]] -> [[The Unknown Shore]] -> [[Desolation Island]]. The redirections broke the utility of the [[The Unknown Shore]] -> [[Desolation Island]] link. That redirection takes the Byron reader from The Unknown Shore to a large, monolithic article about a series of twenty novels. That reader thinks, "This stupid wikipedia! Why the heck would a wikipedia contributor send me here?"
  • I was very unhappy about last summer's merge. IMO, some wikipedians seriously overstep the encouragement to "be bold" in their editing. -- Geo Swan 01:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Have we agreed to a demerge?

If so, what is the next step? Moving the edition information and the paragraph or two of text to the individual articles, with a
{{main|Post Captain}} for each one, incorporating any material that was lost when the merge took place? -- Geo Swan 16:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I have gone quiet but I have been re-reading "The Mauritius Command" and attempting to work up an individual article for others to review. Bearing in mind you have pre-empted me you can find the "work in progress" at Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/The Mauritius Command temp. how we being it on stream or somthing like it I will need to take advice on the "retain the article history". :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 16:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way I think is very important to retain the "series article" and to take out to the individual articles the publication information. This article should then focus on describing the broad sweep of the novels and comment on any discussion of the series as a whole. :: Kevinalewis 16:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with that. I think this page with the series summary gives a continuity that web links will lose. I am grateful for the work of the editor that did the merge because it created this great continuity. Please don't remove this page or reduce it's series content. Remember, this is the web and we can create as many pages as we like. I would use the "main article" redirect to send to each novel page. I have just started this series after the Hornblower series and having the "series" page is very important. In fact, the Horation Hornblower page has the same summary that I would expect here. --Tbeatty 02:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Keep the series article and add longer individual book articles as the fancy takes people. We may need to reduce an individual book section once there is a full blown article elsewhere.Kevinalewis has made a good start with The Mauritius Command. Dabbler 15:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Mauritius Command augmented

Augmented rather than demerge! is how I like to think of this.

I have have loaded my revised article in the original (retaining the history). Please see if this can be improved and we can look to doing a similar exercise with the other novels. My thanks to Geo Swan particularly for his comments on the promotion to Commodore issue that I have trimmed down but included almost as he decribed the issue. Please bear in mind this is still work in progress and the plot and characters particularly is in need of more work. Then more comment on the literary criticism and allusions could be made. Thanks all. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 15:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I definitely like the idea, and also the way you left a short description about the book here in the main article. (One minor point: I don't think the new article needs a stub notice). Stephen Turner (Talk) 15:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Master and Commander augmented - soon

Further on the demerge (augmented article) front I have a new article for the first novel coming, I want to get the basic structure and information right before I place it in the general namespace. Currently working on it as User:Kevinalewis/OBrianNovel. Still "Very much" work in progress. I will get the basics in place and then bring it on, and we can all get on with it! Anyone want to make a start on one of the other novels I'll happily support that. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 15:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor characters list

I see that Njál already addressed this above, but I will mention it again. I think this article would benefit from a list of minor recurring characters with a brief description about each, e.g. Killick, Davies, Pullings, Bonden, Plaice, Sophie, Diana, Reade, Babbington, Lord Keith, Sir Joseph, etc. Alternatively, create a different article with this list, which could have more info including mini-biographies, maybe pictures from the movie (if this is allowed and anyone knows how to do it). This is already a good article in my opinion, and these books are as notable as any other series. I have the collection, so I'm willing to do a lot of the grunt work, if anybody else thinks it is a good idea. --Joelmills 02:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I definitely think this is a good idea. I think it could support both one-line descriptions within this article, and a full article with a paragraph on each one. Stephen Turner (Talk) 08:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Exactly what I would have proposed Stephen. The only thing here is the already large nature of this article, (any help on progressing the main Novel articles would be of help, only 1 done and 1 in progress so far) and bear in mind the fact that we should allow for a few minor character to exist in this list (with the one liner) and yet not warrant a seperate article. Once this takes off we could think at a later date about a seperation of the character list to an series article like "Characters in the Aubrey–Maturin series". :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the solution would be to include the more important secondary characters, such as Bonden and Killick, here in the main article, with a spin off article for tertiary, but nevertheless noteworthy characters - The difficulty then becomes how to separate the two - Parker, of the Polychrest only appears in Post Captain, but he is important during Jack's time on that ship. Lt James Dillon is extremely important in Master and Commander, but is never spoken of in any of the subsequent novels. Amanda Smith appears in Fortune of War and The Surgeon's Mate, and then again in The Yellow Admiral - in neither does she appear for many pages, but her presence influences the story. One list of secondary characters to be included here might be: Bonden & Killick (present in most/all novels, well developed relationship); Sophie & Mrs. Williams, and Diana (family/ love intrest/ sometime major influences); Pullings (present in many novels, well developed realtionship); Queenie & Lord Keith (patron, friend, Deus ex Machina); Reverend Nathaniel Martin (well developed relationship with Stephen, present in several novels); but no doubt I'm leaving someone out... --Badger151 04:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
And we don't even have articles for the Major Characters. ! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I took a stab at a recurring characters list, which you can see at Recurring characters in the Aubrey–Maturin series. It is by no means complete or even totally correct, probably. Please feel free to edit, critique, change, or add to it as you see fit. Then we can add it to this article or its own article. With its size, the latter may be better. I will continue to refine this, but I really need the time to go back through the series. I don't remember much about Babbington, for instance, except that he was present in a few of the novels. Any help would be appreciated. As an additional thought, it might be nice to have a list of Aubrey's ships with their characteristics. --Joelmills 03:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

A good start. IMO, we need complete names of each character (e.g., Queenie's full name, which I'm forgetting at the moment). Perhaps break them up by nationality, too? Also, love the idea of a list of ships appearing in the books (also broken down by nationality). This would be a great resource for us regular readers. Konczewski 14:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The page is now up for the recurring characters in the Aubrey–Maturin series. It still needs organization, footnotes, and more info. --Joelmills 03:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Simply plugging in some of the characters into Wikipedia helps - the Admirals (Keith, St.Vincent, Linois etc) were real Napoleonic war admirals and do have quite extensive wikipedia pages on them, pages that do appear to be quite correct. Made a few changes here and there srs 13:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A bit of suggested demerging

The recurring characters list seems to have got off to a decent start. Now, the section on Humor is getting large enough to justify a page by itself .. I dont think we've got nearly all the good jokes that O'Brian has cracked in the canon .. hell, all of them are good.

Any comments, folks? Shall we demerge the humor at least, like the recurring characters list has been demerged?
I would say no to that. It is long enough to deserve its own page, but I'm not sure that a page dedicated to just humor in these novels would be considered encyclopedic. I peruse WP:AFD on a daily basis, and this seems like something they would jump on. If the length is a problem, I would suggest trimming the "Toilet and sexual humor" a bit. There is no need for every joke of that type to be included. My own personal suggestion would be to keep in the bit at the beginning about Martin, the cunt splice and Lesbian bits, and my own personal favorite, "My bankers are Hoares." --Joelmills 19:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
There's just too many personal favorites (I did a straw poll of my friends who were aubrey-maturin readers .. I've left out quite a few more .. his "Molter Vivace" pun for a composer called Molter - pun on "Molto Vivace" was quite nice, almost as good as the "lesser of two weevils" one. And then you could add a whole lot on their ignorance of religious / classical lit characters .. "Chilon with his famous saws" so "of course he was only a sort of ironmonger..", and that midshipman abord La Fleche in "The Fortune of War", who replies to "Who was Abraham" .. one guy says he was probably a seed merchant, based on the biblical quote about scattering seed .. and another says "he was an ordinary wicked jew", and gets tied over a gun and spanked with a rope end for his pains. Leave it alone but probably move the book reviews to their own page then? That's the single largest part of the article. srs 00:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


The recurrent humor is a major feature of the series. I see no reason to reveal such a large number of important reader payoffs. I have "spoilerized" (if you will) the bulk of the humor section, even though "Significant plot details" is not what is spoiled. I urge other editors to either leave the spoiler warning in (which an individual can ignore), or make the discussion of O'Brian's humor style more abstract; eg, "notably Jack's "debauchery" (by inadvertently making it drunk) of Maturin's pet sloth" might be changed to "notably Jack's interaction with Maturin's specimens". It is not Wikipedia's part to tell the punch lines and be amusing reading; though, "Aubrey...should never be allowed within twelve fathoms of a metaphor" was very amusing and a very good imitation. (I will note that I refer to my old-school stockbroker as "my mother's Fugger". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.131.129.84 (talk) 04:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "also known as the Aubreyad"?

Is it really worth mentioning this in the opening sentence? I had certainly never heard the term before, despite having been devoted to these books for years. It just seems to be an eccentric usage, not worthy of the "also known as" description. Leeborkman 01:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed. I have over 128,000 of the most recent Gunroom articles archived. Aubreyad is used in ~1/1000th of them--far less that "the canon" or some rendition of "the A-M series". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.131.129.84 (talk) 05:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It is used in a number of places, for example 2700+ hits on Google, though I agree that it is less common than the other terms. I personally don't like it but as there is a redirect page to here for it in Wikipedia, I suppose that it is covered. Dabbler 15:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC).

[edit] "Many have likened it to reading Shakespeare"?

Can we get a citation on this? I can't really see the similarity myself, and I would hate to give anyone the impression that these books make difficult reading. All is written in perfectly straightforward modern English, just a few items of vocab that are now outdated (eg "the portable soup is sophisticated"). Or have I missed something? In fact, all this para about the language being challengin but getting easier seems completely subjective, so should be annotated or removed as POV. Leeborkman 01:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The english is quite typical late 18th / early 19th century English, including slang like "clemmed" for hungry and some other typical colloquial but ungrammatical constructs (Can it be ate? etc). Personally speaking, I'd compare O'Brian's English with that of Charles Dickens, or Sir Walter Scott, who wrote during approximately the same period of time that he covers. The english is still a bit archaic and outdated, but sufficiently close to modern queen's english - far closer than the truly archaic english of Chaucer or Shakespeare. It is quite different from American english though, and I kind of understand the motivation behind that comment. The frequent use of old nautical and scientific terms in long, detailed discussions might also have caused that comment. srs 02:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, Richard Snow, the critic, does mention that the initial meeting between Aubrey and Maturin at a concert has a parallel with the meeting between Hal and Falstaff in terms of great friendships in literature. Ivankinsman (talk) 20:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Literary review, ie POV?

Now, reading this article in its entirety, the overwhelming impression is of POV literary review, eg: "A lot of the humour in the series come from the two principal characters' malapropisms" "readers know they will have to proceed to the next volume to uncover the details of the resolution " "after a short while a total immersion effect is produced" "The delivery, whether in the form of narration or dialogue, is often so forthright that the reader (or listener) does not perceive it at first"

Certainly much of this true, but there should be citations. God knows there is such a wealth of literary essays on O'Brian that citations should be easy to find. Leeborkman 01:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite possibly. And some citations from the book (page number / book name) for the quotes / vignettes / book reviews. Ditto for any articles that analyze the real incidents that POB based incidents in his books on (Jack's capture of the Sophie and much later, his trial for stock fraud, both based on Cochrane's capture of a much larger ship and his trial, the south american adventures again cochrane, the capture of Grimholm / Groper Island, etc).

[edit] Post Captain and Pride and Prejudice?

Has anyone notable pointed out the parallels between these two books? I'm just re-reading PC, and it's quite striking. Mrs Williams = Mrs Bennet. Sophia = Jane. Diana = Elizabeth. Jack and Stephen = Darcy and Bingley, etc, etc. PC is much racier, of course ;-) Leeborkman 05:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

But the Williams girls have ten thousand pounds each! Ten thousand pounds would have gone a long way towards making Jane acceptable to Bingley's family, vulgar mother or no. And of course given where Diana ends up, she's rather a combination of Lizzie and Lydia, isn't she? I just re-read PC, and have been studying P&P in some depth recently, and the similarity didn't strike me, though now you point it out I do see it. The "parallel romance" between two sisters and two friends is often used in literature, but rarely so well done as in P&P. In some ways the comparison between P&P and PC on that basis is unfair because the Maturin-Diana romance is carried over several books. I've not finished the series yet, just started it over, so don't give me any spoilers! Maturin is a fascinating character. Laura1822 03:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects

What is the status of the de-merge? Right now the first several novel links on this page redirect to the top of this page. (As it stands now, they should go to the anchor on the page where they are individually discussed.) I would fix them but there seems to be an effort afoot here to split the articles out again-- yet nothing recent. What's up? Laura1822 03:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can it be ate, or Aubrey's alleged words

From the article:

"his usual reaction when Stephen points out an interesting bird or animal to him is Can it be ate?"

I would like to see a quotation, where Aubrey is saying such words. From any of the books. --Dart evader 21:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

From The Truelove (or Clarissa Oakes) page 141 of Norton edition.

While the boat was lowering down Stephen, from the gangway, said 'Captain Aubrey, sir, I appeal to you: is not that bird on the edge of the whaler's front platform - top - foretop - an ancient murrelet?'
'Why,' said Jack, considering it, 'I am no expert, as you are aware. But perhaps it does look a little elderly. Can it be ate?'

Maybe not his "usual" reaction, but used at least once. Dabbler 20:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, if such were his "usual reaction", it would be close to moronity. Said once, it should most probably count as a joke. Dart evader 21:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, the second time I saw that - it was Pullings, talking about some beast (a turtle) I think. I guess this was on Desolation Island —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hserus (talk • contribs) 02:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Demerge

I'm working purely on the plot summaries and editions lists, trying to expand those of the former that seemed to me to omit key details (particularly about plotlines involving Maturin's personal and professional doings) whilst keeping them reasonably succinct. I'm uncomfortably aware that what I've been doing is making a long article even longer, and that there's a movement afoot to demerge and have separate articles for each book, but I do think that (a) if the article is demerged, we'll need a more detailed plot summary for each book anyway, and (b) if it isn't demerged, a reader should be able to follow all the major plotlines through the series by reading each plot summary in turn.

Is there any kind of consensus on demerge? --Karenjc 19:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

CAN WE PLEASE DEMERGE THIS HUGE ARTICLE - starting from the section Details of the Individual Books - INTO SEPERATE ARTICLES FOR EACH BOOK. I am prepared to help contribute on expanding the plot summaries for each book if this is required. WHO DO WE NEED TO TALK TO IN ORDER TO GET THIS DONE? CAN AN EDITOR PLEASE HANDLE THIS A.S.A.P.! LET'S GET SOME ACTION ON THISIvankinsman 09:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
There are individual articles for each book which are currently redirects. If you think that there is too much information here on any one book then you are quite at liberty to remove the content to the separate article leaving only what is necessary here. Remember Wikipedia's slogan "Be bold".
O.K. I will take this project on and create a seperate article page for each book - this should reduce the copious information on the main page and enable users to add more detailed information/participate in more detailed discussion pertinent to each book in the series. I hope most other users feel this is for the best! Ivankinsman 06:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The pages already exist. Some of them already have quite lengthgy articles e.g. Master and Commander. The others currently have redirects back to the main article as there was insufficient information for a full article when they were created. Dabbler 18:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Ivankinsman. I do think this is the best solution and I'll contribute as far as I can to the demerged pages.--Karenjc 12:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this talk page's reversions

I've left a note on User:Ivankinsman's talk page suggesting that he create his article here: The Hundred Days (novel). I think he was trying to create a new article and talk page but uncertain about how to proceed. Hopefully this clears everything up. --Kyoko 20:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have just create The Hundred Days (Novel). Part of the confusion seems to stem from the fact that there are two different pages, Aubrey–Maturin series and Aubrey-Maturin series (if you cannot see the difference: The dashes are typographically different). I now have made the one a redirect to the other. I hope this is what you all want. I've also left this message at User:Ivankinsman's talk page. --Stephan Schulz 20:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This might sound picky, but according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Books_-_literary_works and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books), "(novel)" and not "(Novel)" is the standard way to name an article about a book. Please consider moving the article to The Hundred Days (novel) and changing the other version into a redirect. --Kyoko 20:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Umm...looks like we now have both. I'll check. I made the page while you wrote here... --Stephan Schulz 20:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I hope I fixed it (and a couple of disambig links). --Stephan Schulz 21:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have now removed the info. regarding the plots of the individual novels from the main Aubrey-Maturin series page as these are now all on the individual book's main article pages. Also, most of the novels now have their ISBN nos. and review quotes. Ivankinsman 07:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humour

I think too many examples of his humour are given here. A few give a taste, a few more explain it, two pages is like dissecting the frog. If someone wants a List of jokes from Aubrey-Maturin series go ahead, but not here. Subsolar 03:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. I am a new reader to the series, and after three books it is obvious that almost none of the Humour or Sexual Humour sections belong here at all. Someone must have let a LitCrit student in here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.103.139.167 (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Food

I heard some information once about a dinner hosted for Patrick O'Brian by William Waldergrave and some other Aubrey-Maturin fans at the Royal Naval College? The menu for this dinner, I believe, was based on some of the dishes mentioned in the books.

Could anyone write a description on the main article page of this event? I also believe it would be of interest if a reader could insert a section that focuses on the different types of dishes and foodstuffs eaten by the characters in the novels. Ivankinsman (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

There were two spinoff books by fans -- authorized i think:
  1. A Sea of Words, a glossary of technical terms and geography, and IIRC characters and ships
  2. A book of recipes
One or both should be excellent resources for the article.
--Jerzy•t 06:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Extended 1814

Our article: "...although his telling of the war with the US (The Fortune of War-The Yellow Admiral) is much longer than its historical length..."

There's a lovely wording in one of the later books (an introduction?) where he apologises for having started to run out of time "and as such, 1814 takes place three times over", or words to that effect. Does anyone else remember this? It'd be useful to quote here. Shimgray | talk | 19:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It's in The Far Side of the World, p. x - "in the near future the author (if his readers will bear with him) may be led to make use of hypothetical years, rather like those hypothetical moons used in the calculation of Easter: an 1812a as it were or even an 1812b." Actually, the question of chronology needs to be addressed in the article itself - the fact that the first six books are closely pegged to real historical events, and the following 12 take a detour through a kind of alternate history, in which the years 1813-14 are hugely expanded to accomodate events which by their very nature ought to occupy six or seven years. Cenedi (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've dashed off a quick note - it's not much, but it's something. Shimgray | talk | 21:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
That's pretty good as a succinct statement of the case! Cenedi (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Have added a couple of refinements including making internal chronology a section on its own. The Fortune of War ends with the battle between the Shannon and Chesapeake, which historically took place on 1 June 1813, so the 'real-time' historical period into which the next 12 books are squeezed is really very short. Cenedi (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)