Talk:Atomism

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Contents

[edit] Breaking up the article

This article should probably be broken up and linked to separate articles on classical atomism, Indain atomism, Rennaissance/Sci Rev atomism, and the late 19th century debates about atomism.

I disagree. It's a long article, but I think it makes sense to have the whole story together.--ragesoss 15:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
It's long because it contains a bunch of extra stuff. Much of it (esp. Consequences for guiding one's life and Facing reality) sound like someone's philosophy paper rather than an encyclopedia article. Reorganization and some trimming are in order I think. — Laura Scudder ☎ 15:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, those two sections could probably be removed; I was mainly just defending the historical sections. Of course, you should take my defense of those with a grain of salt as well, since I wrote section from "exile of the atom" to "atomic Renaissance". In short, trimming good, splitting up bad.--ragesoss 00:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. — Laura Scudder ☎ 15:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.21.165.37 (talk) 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logical atomism vs. memetics

Is logical atomism related to memetics? Martin


Wow! Nice idea. I like that. My immediate reaction would be, Yes, logical atomism would be one example of memetics. But then maybe a logician like Bertrand Russell would say, "Wait a minute, young men, logic supersedes the culture that memetics traces." Interesting insight. I will look around for some scholar, perhaps a modern logician, who sees some connection between memetics and logical atomism. I have to run to a party first, though.! :))). Rednblu 01:28, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)


[edit] Creation vs. Evolution

Is there any reason why Creationism vs. Evolution is in this article? It seems to me to have little relevance to the rest of it.

--LaurenKaplow 22:26, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • According to the cultural anthropologists and the social anthropologists, one of the earliest secular explanations for how we got here was the 400 BC atomist Democritus who hypothesized the derivation of life from just atoms and void with no divine intervention. In addition, the creationist scholars see the atomists as the ones who started the Evolution vs. creation debate. Evidently, before Democritus, it was all creationism with divine intervention. And then after Democritus, it was Evolution vs. creationism. If you are interested in looking at the ancient creationist attacks against the secular explanations of atomism, the surviving creationist attacks are all collected in The Atomists: Leucippus and Democritus, C. C. W. Taylor (Translator) (University of Toronto Press 1999) ISBN 0802043909. Apparently from their writings, the ancient creationists blamed the evolution vs. creationism debate on Democritus and his teacher Leucippus and on no one else. :)) ---Rednblu | Talk 01:05, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So why doesnt the section say that? It seems the current piece is simply a brief overview of the evolution debate --Real World 05:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed the section. The link between evolution and atomism is weak and only the first sentence was about atomism at all. That kind of content belongs in a different kind of article. If any disagrees and reverts, I won't change it back, unless consensus is reached. -- Kjkolb 10:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

You made the right choice; it detracted seriously from the article.--ragesoss 15:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture size

I shrunk down both pictures to a more appropriate size. Uriah923 07:37, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] On Aristotle

Is the section on the political implications of Aristotlean ontology really appropriate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.21.68.128 (talk • contribs) 08:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plato and Epicurus too

Why are there only a few lines on the Timaeus, where Plato spells out his atomistic theory, and extensive discussion of his idea of forms and the Creator/Demiurge?

Most of the discussion of Epicurus could be reduced to a few lines -- the first paragraph would about do it.

And as for Aristotle, a discussion of his reasons for rejecting atomism would be appropriate.

This article needs a lot of work. --SteveMcCluskey 02:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

---

  • Curious, I am. Why wouldn't Epicurus's statements of what atomism is be important on a page about "atomism"? --Rednblu 16:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright Violation

In accordance with policy on Copyright violations, I have made a duplicate copy of this page on Talk:Atomism/Temp. Reflecting policy, the page will remain listed for 7 days to allow discussion and resolution of this issue at Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2006_June_3/Articles.

As a first step in resolving this problem, I have removed the passages copied from [www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/ india_contribution/physics.html] from the new temporary copy. (Incidentally, the remaining section on Indian atomism is shorter and seems much more coherent).

Any further edits should be made to Talk:Atomism/Temp or they may be lost when the article is restored. --SteveMcCluskey 14:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other issues to do with philosophy and atomism

At 05:51, 17 October 2006 SteveMcCluskey undit my edits by reverting to the previous version. As no reason has been given for the reversion, and as I think my edits are definite improvements, I have restored them. If someone else decides to again undo my edits, I will not again restore them. It would help if instead some Wikipedians familiar with the subject compared the versions and explained why they prefer one or the other. --Ujm 02:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

What's with the incessant vandalism? Note that I am now watching this page ...

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Strom (talk • contribs) 04:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Connection between Indian atomism and Greek atomism

Hi! I replaced the mention of Pythagora's journey to India, which I think was not really pertinent, with the reference of Democritus journey to India. Benio76 16:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern atomism issues

The article seems to imply that after Boyle atomism was a done deal. This is not so — it remained a controversy amongst emminent scientists up until the early 20th century (e.g. the Boltzmannians vs. the Machians). Even someone as modern as Einstein contributed directly to the debate with his paper on Brownian motion, which was intended to provide logical-perceptual evidence for atomism. Any article on atomism should be able to bring it a bit closer to our present period, as otherwise the reader will get a very skewed version of this bit of the history of science. --24.147.86.187 12:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. To omit figures such as Avogadro, Einstein on Brownian motion, and Jean Perrin (who experimentally confirmed Einstein's Brownian motion theory leading to their receiving the Nobel prize and converting sceptics of atomism such as Ostwald) is unforgivable! The first paragraph of History of chemistry#Disputes about atomism after Lavoisier is an example of possible content. I am not an expert though. --Davidc 15:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Science vs Philosophy?

I was drawn by the recent edit to look at the distinction drawn between atomism in science and philosophy:

"The word atom is understood in primarily two distinct ways: firstly, by the physical sciences; secondly, by philosophy. Atomism is traditionally associated with the latter,..."

I see two problems with this distinction:

First, by "physical sciences" the editors seem to mean the modern physical sciences, ignoring the fact that early "natural philosophers" who debated the nature of the material world (e.g., Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Democritus, Descartes, Hobbes) are considered by most historians of science to have been doing physical science. Thus the attempt to separate "natural philosophy" from the "physical sciences" seems to be either a false dichotomy, or perhaps a dichotomy that needs to be more clearly defined.

Secondly, once we look at the boundary in this fashion, the claim that atomism is traditionally associated with philosophy (as opposed to physical science) doesn't seem to hold up.

--SteveMcCluskey (talk) 13:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)