Talk:Atlatl

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Contents 1 Spear? 2 Armor piercing 3 Bearing surface? 4 Pronunciation 5 Sources for the History section 6 Convert Imperial Mesurements To SI Units 7 Hook?? Vs. Cup? 8 This page should be renamed? 9 Aztec adoption of the atlatl 10 Expired Links

[edit] Spear?

There's an interesting terminology gaffe here. One of the external links has this to say about 'spear' throwing: "But most enthusiasts object to the term 'spear', since it suggests a rigid shaft. An atlatl actually throws a flexible shaft that's more like a 150 centimetre long arrow and is properly called a dart."

John, can you please say in this good article some more which nation of the Native Americans use this tool or is it too hard task for you since you're from and live on their 'native' land - Wisconsin. Here in Europe we are pretty much far from there - perhaps as you're from mother Russia :-) And look up for my ignorance. If you ask me if I know that Native Americans also live, for instance, in Wisconsin I must say I do not. BTW I am glad to hear that you're learning Russian. I'll probably learn it my whole life, ha, ha. And for sure I'll learn that long English too. Respect. --XJamRastafire 21:02 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

Hello John. Being a naive first-year college student (who still thinks digital watches are cool) I have all the enthusiasm and useless bits of trivia needed to write Wikipedia articles, but I tend to do a rather flimsy job of it. Now that my brain is smarter for knowing about the atlatl, something I, five minutes ago, did not even know existed, I have decided to use your articles as templates for writing my own. It's ok for me to *be* a 19-year-old -- but I don't have to write like one. Please, if you are ever so inclined, feel extremely free to edit my articles and be advicy (pardon my habit of putting the letter y in places where it should not be in order to make adjectivy descriptions more convenient for me. I am berated for it often, much as I should be). Take care, and please keep writing articles. You, typing at your keyboard, are making me a smarter person! Your Little Apprentice, Liesel Hess 18:12 May 08, 2003

Does anybody know from which australian language the word Woomera is taken from? --Yak 19:05, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)

Yak, the name comes from the Eora people who were the original inhabitants of the Sydney area, so those who still use it in Central Australia would have a different name for it. LamontCranston 14:45, Aug 29, 2006 (UTC)

The spear might be a weapon, but the spear-thrower is only an instrument

--Yak 20:18, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)

Much as the "gun" enhances the effect of a thrown bullet, no? - Nunh-huh 20:23, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm- yes --Yak 20:24, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)

A better analogy is a gun sling (enhances aim but is not the weapon itself). Where the darts are made for a specific thrower, I guess the thrower is part of the weapon but the basic concept is a tool for throwing spears.

[edit] Armor piercing

"History shows that the spanish feared the Aztec atlatl above all other weapons and many an unfortunate spaniard was surprised to find the power of weapon could easily penatrate spanish metal armor..." There's something very wrong with that sentence. Period Spanish armor was made to protect from firearm bullets, and yet a projectile tipped with obsidian thrown at it could "easily penetrate"? Not possible. At most it would skip off with little concussive damage. This article needs serious revision. --SunWuKong 14:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Firearm bullets at that time were large-caliber, low-velocity, and only as hard as printer's lead. Armor-piercing ammunition really wasn't an option for armies of the time. In armor design, the important qualities of a projectile are its hardness and the amount of momentum behind a given cross-section. A four-foot wooden shaft is actually fairly heavy, and silica glass is harder than even the best steel. An interesting discussion on the topic of Conquistador armor can be found here; I've reproduced an excerpt below.--Joel 17:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Compare the performance of a bullet proof vest against an attacker armed with a tanto. This is why the police wear stab jackets.

Your link to "stab jacket" redirects to a piece of diving equipment. Apparently "stab jacket" is diving slang for "stabilization jacket."

Septegram 02:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Bulletproof vests are uniquely lousy against bladed weapons. This is because kevlar is strong under tension, but has very little shearing resistance--you can cut it with a pair of scissors. Metal armor is both shearing AND tension resistant. Its brittleness in thin layers makes it less effective against relatively high-velocity bullets, but these claims are simply impossible. If an atlatl spear can pierce two layers of armor and the person in between, why did it get replaced by the bow in ice-age Europe? As I understand it, the Spanish armor-piercing claims are generally lies to avoid having to admit being defeated by a bunch of aborigenes with primitive weapons. 153.2.247.32 13:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Aubri

Posted by Benjamin H. Abbott on 11-30-2004 08:41 PM:

The cotton vs. steel thing going on in the New World is odd. Heath claims that "Spanish chronicles" assert that Indian obsidian bladed spears could pierce metal corselets but didn't do as well against quilted armor. Heath also quotes Gomara in saying the Aztec obsidan bladed swords could "pierce or nick iron" and Diaz in claiming no armour was of any good against atlatl darts.

And of course Garcilaso de la Vega is quoted as saying that quilted armor turned arrows better than mail and "inferior plate." In all it makes me wonder about the quality of the armor the Spanish were using in America.

On the other hand, Cortes talks about the cavalry being very resistent to Indian weapons because it was well armored ("bien armado").

It's also strange how the Spanish never seem to have any trouble punching through Indian cotton armor (presumably similar to what many of the Spanish themselves were wearing), or at least never mention it.

Posted by Bret B. Dusic on 11-30-2004 09:34 PM:

I wonder if the reason that the Obsidian tips were less effective against the cotton armor was because they didnt 'react' to the cotton armor the way they would with steel.

I am more than willing to bet that when an obsidian tip hit a steel protection point that it shattered, sending shards of glass into any exposed area or even resulting in pits of glass getting caught under the armor and thus resulting in cuts or simmilar wounds.

Discussion references: Armies of the Sixteenth Century 2: The armies of the Aztec and Inca Empires, other native peoples of the Americas, and the Conquistadores 1450-1608 by Ian Heath. Foundry Books, 1999. Chock full of useful info and nice little line drawings.

Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783 by Harold L. Peterson. Originally published in 1956, this is the Dover reprint from 2000. Slightly dated, but still holds up really well. Plenty of black-and-white photos of arms and armor, from the time of the Conquistadores to the American Revolution. Interesting excerpts from period accounts are included, regarding weapons and armor. A great book (and Oakeshott was a fan of Peterson, FWIW).

The Conquistadores by Terence Wise. Osprey Man-At-Arms series, 1980 (1988 reprint). The original Osprey Conquistadore book, and still the best. Color plates by Angus McBride.

The Conquistador 1492-1550 by John Pohl. Osprey Warrior Series, 2001. IMO this book is inferior to Wise's; Pohl has an annoying tendency to play the part of the historical revisionist (as with his negative comments concerning Columbus), and he sometimes just gets things plain wrong, as when he describes landsknechts as "Swiss pikemen" (and frankly, a research archeologist from UCLA should know better). Still a useful book, but problematic. Decent color plates by Adam Hook.

References and book commentary by David Black Mastro.

[edit] Bearing surface?

In the first paragraph, what is meant by "bearing surface?" It links to the Bearing dab article, but that didn't help me understand it. Is it as simple as "the surface that bears the dart" or am I missing something? Thanks, Throbblefoot 18:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I wrote that sentence, and it's bothered me since then, but I couldn't think of better way to phrase it. This surface acts like a bushing, in that it has to hold a load while offering a slick surface to slide against. I'll go ahead and re-link it to the type of bearing that I meant to refer to.--Joel 23:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! The new link is much more helpful! Throbblefoot 23:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

The Wall Street Journal gave the pronunciation as (basically) rhyming with 'battle-battle' in an 18 Jan. 2006 article, and I also heard it used that way by Peter Woodard in the "Stone-Age Weapons" episode of Conquest, but the 'at-lat-uhl' pronunciation seems more common to me. Can someone cite a reference as to the correct pronunciation? JJL 15:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the IPA given (['a.tɬatɬ]) does not match the “.Wav file featuring the pronunciation of 'atlatl'” link – compare the sound at ɬ. -Ahruman 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard the atu-latul from my anthropology classes (or something like that, I'm bad with writing out pronounciations). So that seems closer to the "battle-battle" version. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 00:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Like JJL, I've also heard the 'attle-attle' pronunciation, and would like some solid source citation for the 'at-lahtl' pronunciation claimed here. ThuranX 00:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If this isn't too self-referential, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atlatl says, "ät-lätl". At http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atlatl we have "/ˈɑtˌlɑtl/" or "[aht-laht-l]". My (hard)copy of Webster's says "(ät'lät'l)" in its pronunciation section for that word (stress on the first syllable if it's not clear from that formatting....) Personally, I'd never heard the four-syllable "attle-attle" pronunciation until I read it here, and I've never seen it noted that way anywhere else.... Geeman 12:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for the History section

It would be good to have more specific sources for some of the statements in the History section. For example, the word "atlatl" does not even turn up when I use Amazon.com's "search inside this book" function with Wise's The Conquistadores. I see that several reference books are mentioned in the Armor Piercing section here on the Discussion page, but would like to know which ones were actually used for the Aztec/Conquistador paragraph in the main article. Catawba 02:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Convert Imperial Mesurements To SI Units

Please put the imperial mesurements in SI units please.100110100 23:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hook?? Vs. Cup?

What is a '...hook...'? I changed, '...It consists of a shaft with a hook, in which the butt of the spear rests....' to '...It consists of a cup, in which the butt of the spear rests....'.100110100 23:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This page should be renamed?

as it deals with much more than atlatls - all the Palaeolithic European and Asian examples, for starters. Or maybe the bits about the Old World examples should be split out into a separate article? 81.152.169.19 20:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

As the woomera gets a separate page, how about a general page on 'spearthrowers' with all the Old World egs, linked to pages on atlatls (used in their close geographic sense) and woomeras. I live in the uK, studied archaeology and have never heard the term atlatl: spearthrower is used for the old world egs. 81.152.169.19 20:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aztec adoption of the atlatl

"The Aztecs reinvented the atlatl after the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores in their lands and they were used extensively during the resulting war."

If I remember correctly, in "El Museo Nacional de Atropología" in Mexico City there is a facsimile of a codex that records the migration of the Mexica (pronounced "me SHEE ca"), improperly called "Aztecs, from their legendary land of origin, "Aztlan," to the shores of Lake Texcoco (tesh CO co), that is where Mexico City is now located. The codex was purely pictorial but was accompanied by a narrative in Spanish (and maybe in English as well). If memory serves me right, according to this narrative, the Mexica adopted the bow and arrow upon leaving Aztlan, but sometime during the century or so in which they journeyed to Lake Texcoco the Mexica, readopted the atlatl as their favorite means of casting projectiles, at least in battle. Perhaps this readoption was due to a commandment by their tribal god, Hitzilopochtli -- I don't quite remember. But if this account is accurate the Mexica would have "re-invented" the atlatl sometime around the year 1300 AD, two hundred years before the Spanish Conquest.

Tim Reagan: 64.126.156.160 06:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expired Links

At least three of the URLs down in the External Links section are expired (dead links). Shouldn't they be removed? I removed one of them recently, but somebody put it back in, so thought I would ask here.

Yes, they should and I just did. It's possible the person didn't realize the link was broken when they reverted you, although you did mention it in an edit summary. Sometimes people just don't pay attention; it happens to the best of us. Ungovernable Force^{Poll: Which religious text should I read?} 05:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Force. I thought I had done something wrong since I'm new to Wik. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.113.34.7 (talk) 08:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC).