User talk:AtiN

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Contents 1 Pope Pius VIII 1.1 How a rumor rise 1.2 Translation about Pius VIII 1.3 My conclusion 2 I think you signed me under some trollish comments by mistake

[edit] Pope Pius VIII

Sorry I could not reply earlier. Yes Pope Pius VIII was poisoned. An autopsy found discoloration in his organs, specifically his kidneys and liver, that confirmed that he had almost certainly injested poison approximately 24 hours earlier. The diary of Price Don agostini Chigi, written at the time, recorded both the autopsy and the conclusion of the doctors who examined the corpse that they were "suspicious" about his sudden death and "deeply suspicious" about the liver and kidney damage, which seemed to have happened very recently, as in a matter of hours. Their conclusion, according to the Prince and other contemporaries, was while they could not say he had been poisoned (they'd need our medical technology to do that) they could not explain the damage except by means of something that the Pope had consumed. And given the damage, they suspected that, at a minumum, it hastened his death. Given that he was in full health otherwise, they had no other explanation for his sudden death other than whatever had caused the serious internal damage. They refused to say it was poison, but joked that the new pope should be very very careful what he consumed! (And the next pope was notoriously careful about having his food tested!) However the Vatican still refuses to confirm that the autopsy took place or that he was poisoned. It is something the details of which are only available from secondary contemporary sources.

I hope that clarifies matters. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 05:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] How a rumor rise

How can you so naïve Jtdirl ?

Il do not believe rumors. I do not believe conspiracy theories. So you do... Sad !

Sincerly yours AtiN 07:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation about Pius VIII

"Nella sezione del cadavere del Pontefice che seguì ieri sera per quanto si dice, furono trovate le viscere sanissime e solo si è rinvenuta qualche debolezza nel polmone, altri dicono qualche sfiancamento nel cuore; resterebbe perciò a sapersi di qual male sia morto. Benché i Capi d’Ordine nella loro Congregazione avessero risoluto di fare il Conclave a Monte Cavallo, pure hanno creduto bene di esplorare oggi individualmente il sentimento di tutti i Cardinali, tanto più che nella passata sede vacante vi furono delle lagnanze, per parte del Collegio, che questa risoluzione fosse presa senza consultare la Congregazione generale.

Il corpo del Papa è stato esposto nella Cappella di Monte Cavallo, cosa non in regola, dovendosi esporre in una camera del palazzo."

"Yesterday evening, during the autopsy of the Pope, according to the report, only very healthy organs have been found, except some weakness of the lungs, or, according to others, a tired heart; therefore it's impossible to understand the death's cause. Although the Chiefs of the Order and of the Congregation wished the conclave to be started in Monte Cavallo, still they decided to ask each individual cardinal for their own opinion, also considering that, on the occasion of the previous vacant papal see, some cardinal complained this decision had been taken without asking the congregation advice.

The Pope's body has been exposed in Monte Cavallo Chapel, infringing the habit to exhibit it inside the palace".

Hope this help, bye. --Marius 11:51, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No, in the italian text the word autopsia=autopsy is not actually mentioned. The word-by-word translation is:

"During the dissection of the Pope's corpse, which was executed yesterday evening, as far as they say, only very healthy internal organs (viscera) were found except ......."

HTH, bye. --Marius 10:22, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Marius. If you need english to french translation it would be a pleasure for me to do it for you. AtiN August 23rd

[edit] My conclusion

Jtdril is the kind of guy that contribute to rumors. He doesn't seem able to make a difference between facts and rumors.

He said that Pius VIII had liver and kidney damage. That wrong. We are not even sure that it had an "autopsy". Don Agostino (and not Agostini) write about what he heard. He just say that he don't know the cause of the death. But at that time it was very common. Even during the time of my father grand-parents it was not easy to determine the cause of a death. Usually people explained the death by a heart or a lung weakness.

The source I read declare that Pius VIII was in very bad shape since his election. He probably die after a stroke (lung, heart or brain).

As far as I know embaler remove all the intern organ. So they can see them. It's not an autospy beacause to a church POV (specialy at that time) it's not right to figure out the cause of a death : it's God decision. So if the Catholic Church deny an autopsy has been done it's not necessary to hide the truth. If my memory is correct the church teach : "The truth will make you free"

At that stage, there is no reason, not a single argument, that allow us to thing that he could have been poisoned.

For beliver of the conspiracy theory there is no doubt : Pius VIII has been poisoned.

AtiN 20:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I think you signed me under some trollish comments by mistake

Hi AtiN -- I think you signed me under some stupid unsigned comments over at Talk:Resistance movement. (The signed comments are mine, though :-) ).

The difference between terrorists and resistance movements is pretty interesting, though. Not least because there seems to be a wide gray area. E.g. should we say a group is still a resistance movement if the amount of "resisting" is much greater than the amount of terrorism aimed at civillians, or does one or two terrorist incidents disqualify them? Deuar 17:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that mistake Deuar. Thanks to sign your contributions.

To answer your question I would say that no, one or two terrorist incidents do not disqualify a resistance movement. During the WWII and occupation of France by the german army, the FFI kill a german officier that was not in duty. Even if he should have been considered as a civilian, this murder do not discalified the whole movement.AtiN 17:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's ok! I'm glad it was an honest mistake ;-) By the way - feel free to erase this section if you like. Deuar 10:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)