Talk:Athanasian Creed

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Contents 1 General Talk 2 Filioque 3 Different Translations 3.1 Capitalization 4 19thC controversy 5 "Western Church"

[edit] General Talk

I am adding some discussion about objections to this Creed.

-- LeandroGFCDutra 22:43, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• I am adding the Latin appelation for this Creed (Quicumque vult) and its former use in the Office of Prime of the Divine Office. Prime, the first of the four minor hours (the other three being tierce, sext, and none) was suppressed with the promulgation of the post-conciliar Liturgy of the Hours.

Aloysius Patacsil 20:35, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Filioque

Does verse 23 have a filioque addition? Or was it always like that? --Audiovideo 13:45, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To judge from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.iv.html , the earliest version of the Latin text directly available to us included "Et Filio", but it's omitted in Greek translations. -- AnonMoos

Not trying to offend anyone, but it occurs to me that this creed seems like a possible inspiration of the well-known Monthy Python and the Holy Grail gag about the "holy hand grenade." "And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'" And, again not trying to offend, I have to say that now that I am familiar with the Athanasian creed the joke is twice as funny. Three persons in one God, no more, no less, no substitutions, and anybody who has done evil will enter eternal fire! (sorrydontrecallmyusername)

[edit] Different Translations

User:172.197.242.40 deleted "descended into hell". I reverted that change based on [1]. There will be multiple english-langauge translations, so we might want to instead call out variations in a discussion section at the bottom. User:172.197.242.40, can you provide a reference to a version that lacks the "descened" clause? (Which would prompt a start of this section?) Johnh 23:13, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

User:172.199.92.250 deteled the "descended into hell" clause, just as the previous anon user did. There's not much use in constantly going back and forth. Since the text is a translation, it seems much more fruitful to simply list alternatives rather than argue (or revert-war) back and forth. I therefore added the ICET text (since that is the only text about which I know the translation history) as one widely used translation. I strongly encourage others with alternate translations to add them in addition (before, after sideways :-) to this text instead of altering it. My hope is that this will give a fair, NPOV view of a wide set of reasonable viewpoints and avoid fruitless reversions.

I'm of course open to alternative, constructive suggestions. Johnh 02:34, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I should add, although I changed the prior translation to the ICET translation, I did so only because I don't know the correct source or citation for the prior translation. If someone can offer it, I'm all for putting that translation back on the page in addition to the ICET version. Johnh 02:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

If there was any historically-significant attested variant of the creed which omitted the "decended into hell" clause then it would almost certainly be mentioned at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.iv.html . All that's shown there is one particular loosely-periphrastic Greek translation (certainly never accepted as authoritative by any church) which replaces the "decended into Hell" clause with a vague reference to Jesus' burial and resurrection. Since I don't think that any scholarly-respectable English translation would omit the "descended into hell" clause, I've replaced the call for other English translations with a reference to the http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.iv.html page. --AnonMoos

[edit] Capitalization

I reverted Cmdrjameson's change capitalizing catholic. While often capitalized when refering to the Roman Catholic Church, my understanding is that in the creed, the word is used in the sense of "universal", in which case it is not capitalized. Johnh 03:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 19thC controversy

In the nineteenth century, I think the Athanasian Creed became controversial in some circles in America and Western Europe because of its claims to exclusivity of salvation (I once read that some of the Bronte sisters didn't like it for that reason, but I don't really have any sources at hand now). It would be nice if this could be mentioned on the page and placed in context. AnonMoos 03:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Western Church"

Does the "Western Church" mean the Roman Catholic Church, or does it mean all (Nicene) western churches, including, for instance, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Methodist, etc.? john k 19:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)