Talk:Astronomican
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[edit] Theories
"There are counter-theories against Emperor/Golden Throne,see articles about Horus.Proofs of Emperor like Ian Watson books have been dropped from official fluff, hence the issue remains open to debate." - Xasf
That's as may be, but the Rulebooks and Codexes remain the basis, correct? I quote from Codex:Necrons:
I have seen the mon-keigh brutally shorn of their previous civilisation, reduced to a weak and frail shadow of their gaudy, temporal grandeur. No more do their brutish warriors wage their xenocidal wars; they could not fight against the inevitability of time. No more does their corpse-god's pallid beacon splutter and crackle in the warp; his feeble flame was long since extinguished. His appetite for souls was as nothing next to the ageless hunger of the Yngir.
-Attributed to Farseer Maechu of Ulthwé
Ulthwé is certainly not out of the loop, having an "exaggerated" psychic potential, an unusually large number of Seers and powers of prediction explicitly stated to be better than any other Craftworld. Now, the Astronomican is a massive signal with a range that constitutes an appreciable fraction of the entire galaxy, as compared to a common astropath's several light-years. It's very hard for the Ulthwé to miss, and my quote proves they haven't. If someone as different from the choir as the Emperor* were involved, they would surely be able to sense Him. It seems very natural for the Ulthwé to know this.
Now, if He were not involved, how would the Astronomican be His flame? How would the end of the Astronomican relate to His soulhunger being stilled in the way implied by the serial way these two are mentioned?
*If not truly in mind (I'd think so, but it's possible), then at least in emotions and attitude to the task. Grey Knight Terminators are said to possess will-power and stoicism far in advance of even the most dedicated ordinary human for "endur[ing] the agonies of the Emperor's soul-binding". While it is drawn into question whether they actually do, it is stated that those who do are exceptional. Cygnus360 00:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I think your basis conjecture of rulebooks and codexes is insufficient. WH40K universe is not a static setting bound to material published years ago, it's being constantly reshaped with each new novel, each new issue of White Dwarf or some statement or gossip from the guys at GW. And it is the way of GW to create conflicting fluff material to keep things alive and interesting. If you scan the boards in various online WH40K communities, you will find many theories about what exactly the Golden Throne contains, including alternatives like a completely-dead Emperor and Horus himself. While I agree that most of those are unfounded and pure speculation, there are also some solid looking ones with various links to the official fluff and they can supply you with exact references which I'm unable to recite from memory at the moment.
One thing that comes to my mind though is the Thorian Inquisition. They believe that the Emperor's spirit slipped into the Warp and reincarnates in the bodies of great people (like their saint Sebastian Thor) to further help the Imperium, which would mean that the body in the Golden Throne is not the Emperor, not anymore, not in the sense that his immortal will still resides in the body in the Golden Throne and through that, is linked the Astronomican. As you can see, we already have conflicting material, one coming from a great seer and the other from the heart of the Imperium. Taking the issue one step further, one could argue that the words of the Ulthwé seer may refer to the existing presupposition of the affiliation of the Astronomican with the Emperor, rather than the affiliation being real. (Like, for example, if everyone spoke of New York as "your city", some third party may refer to it as "the city of cygnus360" while it isn't the actual case.) Or even one step further, the quotation is "attributed" to the seer, so it's uncertain if he ever said such a thing. How can we know for sure? The answer is, we can't. This is what I meant by saying that "the issue is open to debate". While I can't prove to you that the Emperor doesn't guide the Astronomican, you also can't prove to me that he does. No matter what examples we come up, there will be always something to hint at the opposite view. Such is the nature of the WH40K setting.
Therefore, I don't see the need to be dogmatic about anything. Since suspicions undeniably exist, we may as well speak of them.
Xasf 05:36, 20 November 2005 (GMT+2)
- I guess you're right, and you've got Wikipedia policy on your side. It was mainly the previous "superstitously believed" bit that got me riled. Looks a lot better now. Cygnus360 09:06, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, may be that thing with superstition looked a bit.. extreme. Like you said, a lot better now.
Xasf 14:42, 20 November 2005 (GMT+2)
- I found a better quote. From the Rulebook, 4th Edition: The sheer quantity of such psychic energy generated is vast, and only the mind of the Emperor is mighty enough to direct such power. Well, "widely believed" is probably ok for now, but if I find more it's not too unlikely I'll change it again. Cygnus360 22:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Astronomican, months or days?
Another article, I forget which one (possibly the Emperor or psykers) said that psykers are destroyed over a process of months. This article says days. Could someone in the know clarify?
Liastnir 14:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
- While the Astronomican section of the 4th Edition Rulebook does not specify an exact timeframe, the 3rd Edition does say that "The prodigious amounts of mental energy needed to contribute to the Astronomican drains a psyker of his life essence in a few short months (...)", so I'm editing the article to reflect that. Thanks for heads-up. Xasf 13:04, 03 April 2006 (GMT+2)
