Talk:Assyrian Church of the East

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[edit] Assyrian, Chaldean, Syrian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic

I doubt if you are right to say that a Chaldean Church in India is the same like the church called Assyrian in other places. It is a few years back that I went thru all this but basically: there are 2 Aramaeic- language church traditions. Syrian-Orthodox (Western Aramaeic) and Assyrian Orthodox (Eastern Aramaeic). Western means: Basically from the old church inside the Roman Empire; Eastern: from the christian tradition east of the the Roman Empire - inside the Sassanid Persian Sphere. The difference was based on the cultural difference between East and West in the huge Aramaeic-Speaking culture area, and also the two separate political spheres - and coming out in doctrinal differences. Inside the Roman area the state tried to take a lot of influence on the doctrinal development of christianity - this was much less in the Sassanid area where Christians were never the official religion, if though also an important one. Thus in the west the aramaeic church joined the socalled "Monophysite" schism (together with Armenians and Egyptians including Ethiopians) - whereas the Church in the East gave refuge and a place to teach to followers of Nestorius when their line of thought was banned in the Roman Areas = the West.

The modern western terms are convenient although they are more or less different transscriptions of the same semitic word: They call themselves something like "siryan" - add the article "al" which is joint with an initial "s" thus making from "al-siryan" >>"as-siryan".

So basically we have Syrian Orthodox (West) and Assyrian Orthodox (East). From each of these there were groups entering into union with Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has been trying to form unions since the great schism with the Greek orthodox Church after 1056. They tried with the Greek Orthodox tradition, with the "monophysite" traditions and also with the Eastern "Assyrian" tradition. They had some success everywhere; sometimes whole dioceses went into union with Rome, sometimes only splinter groups. These make the present Catholic Churches of the oriental rites (That are the Catholics under the pope whose priests do marry).

Now in the Aramaeic Tradition these are mainly three uniate churches: A) The Maronites (from Syrian-Orthodox origin, early separated, complete union with Rome since crusades); B) the Syrian-Catholic Church (from Syrian-Orthodox origin since 18th century) C.) the Chaldean Church (from Assyrian Origin since 16th century)


As far as India is concerned: Indian Old Christianity was connected to the "Assyrian Church" - largely separated from them thru the Portuguese influence in Southern India, then split: partly under Roman-Catholic, partly under Syrian-Orthodox, partly under Assyrian traditions and community. From what I hear Chaldean in India means the Catholic Uniate section of the old Indian Christian tradition (not the later Roman Catholicism like the one founded by Portuguese in Goa)- also called Syro-Malabar Rite *** --Kipala 22:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Mar Shimun XIX

Maybe someone who knows about this could have a look at Mar Shimun XIX Benyamin? This was originally a very POV article copied from somewhere (thought it is claimed that was the original author), that is now included in the talk page. I tried to make a stub out of what was there, but don't know anything about the subject. Rvollmert 11:21, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Has anybody the slightest idea about the current situation?

It seems to me, that in addition to the

  • Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of the East, Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV. Khanania residing in the US

there is an

  • Ancient Apostolic Catholic Church of the East, Patriarch Mar Addai II. residing in Iraq

Pjacobi 16:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just found (and linked) List of Patriarchs of Babylon but it isn't in full agreement with the article. --Pjacobi 16:35, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)


yes mar addai split from the assyrian church of the east because christmas was changed to december 25, instead of janurary 7. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.17 (talk) 06:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of church members

Can we discuss and agree about the number of church members to state in the article. And perhaps even on the number of Assysrians and a definttion who is included in this number.

Pjacobi 14:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


  • Assyrians
  • Church Members

Im sorry but I cant dont find my sources at the moment but i have them on my mind and I will ask around for the sources. 450.000 Assyrians in the US (Almost all Assyrian Church of the East) 1.000.000 Assyrians in Iraq (700.000 Assyrian Church) 90.000 Assyrians in Sweden (40.000 Assyrian Church) 100.000 Assyrians in Germany (55.000 Assyrian Church) 600.000 Assyrians in Syria (500.000 Assyrian Church) USA.Iraq.Sweden.Germany and Syria together about 1.300.000 so then theres about 3 million more Assyrians and I and many others would say that more or less than half of them belongs to the Assyrian Church of the East.I shall try to get my sources again since my computer crashed but these numbers are mostly true. --Sargon 18:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


That would be five time as much as pro-oriente.at states, which is usually considered a good source. Are we counting different things? Is pro-oriente.at only counting one of the two groups in schism? --Pjacobi 19:36, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Pro Oriente is only counting the members of Mar Dinkha's church. Those who are of Assyrian ethnicity are not necessarily members of that church. The difficulty comes when Assyrian ethnicity is predicated on those who do not themselves claim it. This article is about church membership, so it might be easier to leave the issue of ethnicity for another article. Numbers in Iraq are a political hot-potato at the moment. I don't know of any accurate figures, and Assyrian political groups, trying to grasp some power, may inflate figures to their advantage (such is the way of all politicians). Because of the situation, I would be hesitant to take onboard the figures provided by political groups (I know Sargon would disagree with me): all politicians may not be liars, but they do have ulterior motives. Gareth Hughes 20:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes it would be easiest to leave the ethnicity based numbers out of this article. But surely we should state the Mar Dinkha (Chicago) and Mar Addai (Bagdad) numbers. (Did I get the name/base relationship right? I find this always most confusing).
As an aside, adherents.org which is a relatively sober source (but always only compiling from other sources), recently discussed that previous estimates on non-muslim faiths in the middle east may be severely underestimated, discussing the case of Zoroastrianism [1].
Pjacobi 21:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I dont really know..Gareth is a vise man but 400.000 its hard to belive since we are about 4 million Assyrians and the 3 strongest churches are the Assyrian Church.Syriac Orthodox Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church.The Syriac Orthodox Church has about 400.000 members and the Chaldean Catholic church i dont really know how many they have but id guess on 700.000 so together it would be 1.1 million so where would the rest 2.0 - 2.9 million be? The Assyrians dont have a lot of atheist nor muslims so we all must agree that the Assyrian Church of the East have more than 400.000 members or am I wrong Gareth and Pjacobi? And by the way Gareth ive learned that your a smart man and i cant disagree with you on all points but on a few i do so its up to us 3 to decide how many are estimated to the Assyrian Church since some sources are not true.--Sargon 09:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Nestorianism" in China

Should "Nestorianism in China" be properly called by some other name? Was "Nestorianism" in China actually Nestorianism? --Dpr 03:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a difficult one. Historians, rather than theologians or religious historians, would generally use the word Nestorian to describe the type of Christianity that travelled along the Silk Road. This is especially noted in descriptions of the Nestorians in the service of the Mongol Empire. However, of course, these Nestorians were descendents of the Christians of Persia who had been tarred with that brush by the Roman Christians. The Chinese sometimes called them Persians, and the never called them Assyrians. It may be best to keep the title and add some explanation, as there is not a convenient way of expressing it otherwise. --Gareth Hughes 11:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Mr Highes, by stating that the christian that reach China wer not Assyrian from the Assyrian Church of the East witch were accused of Nestorinsm is the same thing the dictator were and still doing to the Assyrian in the Middle east, Dening them credit what they have done. --67.166.133.88 01:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)



Can someone post a link to info on the active old parish in China that this page mentions twice? I'm very curious about it, but there is no citation and I have a hard time getting anything on it with Google.

===>I'm posting this at Talk:Assyrian Church of the East and User talk:Amber388 The information about the church in China was added by me, and I got that data from Reverend Father Shlemon Hesiqial of St. George's Church in Chicago, Illinois on Christmas of 2004. Apparently, the church was discovered in 2001, and has been in continuous operation since its founding in the eighth century or so. If you would like more information, I imagine that he can answer all your questions, or direct you to someone who can.

St. George's Church
Reverend Father Shlemon Hesiqial
7201 North Ashland
Chicago, IL 60626
Office: + (1-773) 465-4777
Fax: + (1-773) 465-0776
Source

If I can be of assistance, let me know. -Justin (koavf), talk 20:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Church in Japan?

I've heard rumors that the remains of a very old church were found in Kyoto beneath a Buddist Temple. Can anyone confirm or deny this? If it is true, then the church would have spread all the way to one of the easternmost areas of Asia. Impressive indeed.

Check this out [2] Chaldean 20:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text available from cleanup elsewhere

In cleaning up the "Orthodox Church" disambiguation page, I removed this paragraph. It seemed like a good paragraph, so I am putting it here in case someone more knowledgable on this topic would like to work it into the article:

In contrast to the Syriac Orthodox Church (part of Oriental Orthodoxy), the Assyrian Church is part of neither Eastern nor Oriental Orthodoxy, having split from the rest of Christianity in the Nestorian Schism of 431 AD, under the accusation that its believers heretically divided Christ into two persons. However, the Church does not characterise itself as Nestorian. It was active in the spread of Christianity to China and to India, where it is known as the Chaldean Syrian Church. Despite its historic importance, it is now a relatively small denomination.

--Iggle 07:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The old Nestorian Church

Could someone please explain to me what happened after the seperation of the Nestorian Church from the rest of the other Churches, who were the people which consisted of the Nestorian Church, wasnt it all of the Christians in today's middleast, Iran and Turkey??? could someone please clarify this to me Thank you.. 124.187.153.75 09:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not Turkey or Syria, which were part of the Eastern Roman Empire. But Christians in the Persian Empire (Iran, Iraq etc.) and areas further east (such as India, China) were largely in this church. --Henrygb 00:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move of interest

In case anyone here wants to weigh in, Eastern Rite Catholic Churches → Eastern Catholic Churches: See Talk:Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. Fishhead64 07:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mar

I'm guessing it's an Assyrian or Aramaic word, but can anyone tell us what it means? I can make a guess but I'd rather get more reliable information. Thanks

--Maha Odeh 10:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Lord (as in mar anatha) 128.100.110.88 (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It is also used to refer to Bishops and (male) Saints. The female form is "marta". --Midnite Critic (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rating

I'm new enough to Wikipedia to have no idea how an article moves from Start to B-Class, but I can tell you that, with all due respect to those who have contributed to this article, there is no way that it should have been upgraded to B-Class in its present form.

At a brief reading, the following topics are either unaddressed, grossly incomplete, or inaccurate in their coverage:

- as regards the terminology "Assyrian Orthodox", the fact that there was, briefly, a body by that name associated with the Russian Orthodox Church and consisting of clergy and faithful who separated from the Assyrian Church

- the lawsuit between the Assyrian Church and the Syrian (Syriac) Orthodox Church in the 20th century in regard to the usage "Assyrian"

- the present schism in the Church involving Mar Barwai, as a consequence of statements that he made arising from his role as the Patriarch's chief representative to the Catholic-Assyrian dialogue commission

- the proper styling of the Church's Indian jurisdiction

- the nature of the issues and present status of talks between the Church and the Ancient Church of the East

- the description of the Holy Leaven which fails to describe the premise on which the Sacrament is based in any form that might be understandable to the average reader

- the scope of the Pastoral Agreement between the Catholic and Assyrian Churches

- the scope of the Church's involvement in China in the first millenium - during which it had some rather amazing number of jurisdictions in that country

- the architecture of its temples, the structure of its liturgy (the title of which I don't even remember seeing mentioned), its religious artistry (or lack thereof)

The External Links incorrectly label the official news service site of the Church as its official site - it isn't. The links list also denigrates another site (or, minimally, inserts a non-NPOV) as by an "amateur historian". The site, in fact, belongs to a deacon of the Church was, last I knew, also the webmaster of the Church's official site.

All in all, that doesn't say B-Class to me.

I'll try and offer some text to correct some of this, but it's going to be slow and piecemeal, as I have a major project underway that is occupying most of my spare time right now. Irish Melkite 10:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questioning the name of the Church

I just so have happened to come across, the first line, which reads, quote: "The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East", and also at a particular Assyrian Church in Sydney, it stated "The One Holy Apostolic Catholic, Assyrian Church of the East". This is a stark contradiction and in fact I would like to see that very line removed for a number of reasons, and in turn I would like it to be called the Assyrian Church of the East. Is it not the Assyrian Christians that are moving themselves away from the Pope and the Catholic Church, so then how can you turn around and state it is a Holy Apostolic Catholic Church? Furthermore, the One True Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is the Roman Catholic Church, and it just so happens to be that Assyrians are under the impression that they are, quite funny I believe. In addition to this, was it not Mar Bawai who was taken to court because he had the pillar of unity with the Catholic Church, but wait if you are already Catholic what is the need of this pillar? Finally, this article is set in the ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY Wikiproject, and it is called a Catholic Church? It is clearly evident that the name of the Church should be removed, and left as Assyrian Church of the East, because they say they are Catholic, then Orthodox, then say we want to be Catholic, WHICH ONE IS IT? And the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, is not the Assyrian Church of the East as you would have people believe but the Roman Catholic Church.

Andrew.hermiz 01:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, when I was working in Australia earlier this year, I went to an Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, however, when i appearently went inside, it turned out to be an Orthodox Church, and this was evident by seeing no statues at all, and that the priests I was talking to admitted to be Orthodox and were married. This Church appears to be in a Suburb where my cousin live called Gleenfield Park, I am as counfuesed as any one else, both followers of Orthodox and Catholic appeared to be celebrating the Eucharist together, could someone please clarify this to me, as a professor I should not be confused, but this is something I have never come across.

Asm ccc 11:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Professor Marco

I am not an Assyrian, nor a follower of the Assyrian Church, but I too agree that it is seemingly a contradiction on the church's part for the name "Holy Apostolic Church of the East". Is it not blatantly so, that "Apostolic" refers to originating from the apostles, and namely St. Peter, first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? Therefore, to me, is seems that the Roman Catholic Church can only truly be refered to as apostolic, with adequate, endorsed justification. I have also heard the argument that, perhaps, as there were 12 apostles, another could have created and initiated the Assyrian Church. However, as Apotolic refers to conservative, traditional Catholicism, the initial doctrines and dogmas must be recognised, for example the law of religious chastity, for example. Lastly, it seems pompous that "Professor Marco" seems to believe that professors can never be confused- this is wrong and every one makes blunders, for example, his spelling of the word "confused".

RakiRaki 00:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I second all of the above notions raised. I mean all you have to do is too take a look at the article yourself and you will see a section saying that thre was a schism in the church between Catholic and Orthodox. The only way it can be known as the Apostolic church is if it can be traced to the line of St Peter. Since this has been broken through their Schism. THye cannot be called Apostolic and all references should be removed.

Their their, please calm down. Obviously you 3 don't know anything about the word Catholic. To clear things up once and for all Catholic#Divergent_usages; "As noted, in addition to the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Church of the East all see themselves as the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed. The holy catholic assyrian church of the east is the offical name of the church. Chaldean 08:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to thank Raki Raki and Andrew Hermiz of pointing this out, but dont put to much pressure on these people, not only do they know if they are Catholic or Assyrian they dont know what to call their Church either

"The East-Syrian Church of Persia became in the course of the history known as,, The Church of Persia”; “The Church of the East”; “The Nestorian Church”; “The East-Syrian Church”. Since 1976 its name has been changed in,, The Assyrian Church of the East”." http://www.aramnahrin.org/English/Testimonies_Historians.htm and now they are claiming they are apostolic, I demand the article to be changed as evidence has been provided this article is bias to an extent where it is not longer acceptable, and just to clear something up for Raki Raki i spelled confused correctly, dont teach me how to spell, when you recieve a degree such as mine, you will discover for yourself that spelling is not the most importantly, aspect of getting information over to someone. Professor MarcoAsm ccc 09:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You are so wrong in so many aspects its not even funny. Chaldean 14:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


I do not intend to be rude, but again, it seems quite contradictory that, you, user Chaldean are telling me, and the ones agreeing with me that we "are so wrong in so many aspects that it isn't funny, when you said "Their, Their" in the completely wrong context- rather it's "There, There" RakiRaki 22:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your grammer correction RakiRaki, but Enligsh is not my firs language. By the way, Is it not blatantly so, that "Apostolic" refers to originating from the apostles, and namely St. Peter, first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? - No it does not, and did you read the Catholic article to understand why? Chaldean 01:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What is funny is that the user "Chaldean", has actually turned out to be an Assyrian who is imitating Chaldean people. How dare you act in such a cruel way, and does this not show the last resort Assyrians have gone. Whats a claim without any proof, well hre you go everybody right in front of your very eyes, quote: "Baseema raba fellow Assyrian", which translated to english means Thankyou very much fellow Assyrian. I demand you change your username or I will report you to the moderators for acting on behalf of Chaldeans in a bias and NON-neutral manner. Your history, does not seem suprising with all those bans. I believe that the box added on your wikipedia userpage, which stated capable of English Advanced should be removed, because RakiRaki has shown the bad level of english you have. I will reinstate my unopposed argument once again that initiated the change of the first line by an Assyrian "Catholic". Catholic is in inverted commas because it is Orthodox (Schism between Orthodox/Catholic Church).

I just so have happened to come across, the first line, which reads, quote: "The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East", and also at a particular Assyrian Church in Sydney, it stated "The One Holy Apostolic Catholic, Assyrian Church of the East". This is a stark contradiction and in fact I would like to see that very line removed for a number of reasons, and in turn I would like it to be called the 'Assyrian Church of the East'. Is it not the Assyrian Christians that are moving themselves away from the Pope and the Catholic Church, so then how can you turn around and state it is a Holy Apostolic Catholic Church? Furthermore, the One True Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is the Roman Catholic Church, and it just so happens to be that Assyrians are under the impression that they are, quite funny I believe. In addition to this, was it not Mar(Bishop) Bawai who was taken to court by his own Church because he had the pillar of unity with the Catholic Church, but wait if you are already Catholic what is the need of this pillar? Finally, this article is set in the ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY Wikiproject, and it is called a Catholic Church? It is clearly evident that the name of the Church should be removed, and left as Assyrian Church of the East, because they say they are Catholic, then Orthodox, then say we want to be Catholic, WHICH ONE IS IT? And the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, is not the Assyrian Church of the East as you would have people believe but the Roman Catholic Church.

Andrew.hermiz 01:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What is funny is that the user "Chaldean", has actually turned out to be an Assyrian who is imitating Chaldean people. - are you seriously mentally ill? Who the are you to tell me I'm not Roman Catholic? You think I'm the only Chaldean wikipedian that considers himself Assyrian? Try User:EliasAlucard, User:Tourskin, and User:Sharru Kinnu III. Are you going to report them too for being Chaldean Catholic but considering themselves Assyrian? Dude, get a life.
Catholic is in inverted commas because it is Orthodox - you are so uneducated about this subject that you don't even know that Church of the East is not even a Orthodox Church. Listen, you are not capable of editing any of Wikis page because you have shown to be a complete joke.
in turn I would like it to be called the Assyrian Church of the East. - what part of it is not your choice don't you understand? This is the official name of the church. Go as the church to change its name.
because they say they are Catholic, then Orthodox - this is a perfect example of you not being knowledgeable about this topic. For the last time, Catholic does not mean one belonging to Roman Catholic Church - PLEASE READ THE Catholic page to understand this.
WHICH ONE IS IT? - its neither but your too ignorant to understand that. Chaldean 00:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East is Apostolic as it was founded by St. Thomas, one of the 12 apostles of Christ. It is Catholic, meaning universal. You guys need to get your facts straight, and stop wasting Chaldean's time - you 3 have proven yourselves to have no real knowledge about the Assyrian Church of the East, so I'm asking you (namely Asm ccc) to kindly take your political agendas elsewhere. I've seriously had enough :) -Šarukinu 15:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 19th century

http://www.aramnaharaim.org/English/ArameanHistory.htm

Assyrian church of the East got given its name in the 19th century how could it be Apostolic, Only the Catholic Church is Apostolic i challenge you to do some more research.

RakiRaki 03:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

That website is full of lies, starting with Yusuf Akbulut. Don't take that site seriously. While I don't know when did the Church got its name, if you want to know how it is apostolic, I suggest you ask the patriarch of the Church. Chaldean 03:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
It's Apostolic even according to the Roman Catholic Church. It is apostolic because it has apostolic succession starting with St. Thomas. That is WHY it IS APOSTOLIC. 20:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


Regarding the name, a wiki describes the catholic church as being "The historical, unbroken One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles, having maintained unbroken the link between its clergy and the Apostles by means of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition". However, the Assyrian Church of the East also wants to make claims to this title. Though, can be this be sourced and religiously and fundamentally jusitfied if the the Assyrian Church of the East does not compleltly recognise all the dogmas and the doctrines enforced by Jesus Christ, as well as the Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church? One of these is the vow of chastity which is essential within the Catholic faith. The Assyrian Church of the East does not enforce this. So is it really, completly the Catholic Church? It is seemingly not. I am, in no way disputing that the Assyrian Church of the East is Christian, this is blatantly unmistakable,but it is not Catholic. Perhaps this discussion must be talked over logically rather than all users getting upset, and taking it personally.

RakiRaki 05:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What part of the word Catholic is not owned by the Roman Catholic Church don't you understand? Chaldean 14:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It is Catholic. It is not Roman Catholic. There is a big difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.77.139 (talk) 02:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

RAKI, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ST. THOMAS WAS AN APOSTLE OF CHRIST? IF YES, THEN THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC, IF NO, THEN YOU ARENT CHRISTIAN. He started christianity in the middle east, india and china. There is a monument in china dedicated to him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.17 (talk) 06:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You responded to thread that has been dead for 6+ months. This is why there needs to be a regular archive. --Secisek (talk) 09:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


It's ignorant remarks like the one above that got your userpage vandalized. secisek, stick to your own religon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.17 (talk) 06:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oops!

I'm sorry about my edit, I was having a dyslexic moment. I can only hope my Dog will for give me--Supernerd 10 (talk) 18:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)