Talk:Assassination/Archive 2

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Talk:Assassination/archive1

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Assassin/Assassination = the same?

In my oppinion it doesn't. Assassin should refer you to either a page with links to different "guilds" while assassination should be what it is now. The explanation of the act it self. //DerMeister (not signed in :P)

Important note!

This article incorrectly refers to Nizarene Ismaili Shia as being a sect of the past. The historical "Assassins" were not all wiped out when the Old Man of the Mountain's citadel was destroyed - that portion of the sect that had already spread into India survives today. Their leader is the Aga Khan, a direct lineal descendant of the prophet Mohammed. They are generally a peaceful people, and do not call attention to themselves; their doctrine requires them to be good neighbors unless they are opressed, which nobody is stupid enough to do any more. For more information on the religion see http://www.iis.ac.uk/ismailis/ismailis_l2.htm or simply contact the Aga Khan through one of his many businesses, foundations, universities, etc.

I've editted the article to include the info below, however, I'm adding it here as well in case it is removed from the main page:

The information presented as ‘fact’ with reference to Ismailia on the Wikipedia site is both controversial and inaccurate. These substantial concerns; based primarily on the lack of credible sources, deal with the slanderous descriptions of the Nizari sub-sect of the Ismailia as a people that habitually used drugs and involved themselves in targeted killing(s). The importance of credible citation in the academia need not be extolled here, however as the aforementioned warning indicates, the neutrality of the information herein has been challenged, precisely because of the lack of any sourcing, leading to the conclusion that this is simply conjecture. The Ismailia sect has been documented throughout history in a capacity of the quietist denomination within the foray of Islam. Their contributions have been well documented.

- SAA

Initial Discussion re: current revision

I think, if I might be so bold, that the article is informative but just too concentrated on the anti-assassination side (myself being a pro-assassination liberal, ironically enough). Would anyone mind terribly if I took a crack at evening it out? I mess it up, y'all can revert no problem, and if it works, it works. However, I am kind of jumping in here, so if you all would prefer not that's cool too. Just an offer. :) Wally 21:27, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

  • Please be bold. All these articles are collaborative efforts :) Kingturtle 21:38, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Hi, Wally. I see you haven't started yet. I was going to second Kingturtle's objection of the WP:FA candidates page, but decided it might be more productive to spend my 0.02 here. Some points which I thought needed work:
    • Writing. There are parenthetical insertions with no closing parenthesis. There are multiple run-on sentences of more than forty words; consider breaking them up and re-organising them. There are sentences with dashed insertions where the material on either side of the insertion does not join up; either rewrite the closing of the sentence, or break it up into multiple sentences. Paragraphing and section heading is disorganised and confusing - there are major sections with respectively just one, two or three sentences. The three section headings discussing motives could be combined in one. Nine paragraphs consist of a single sentence, and in many cases it is unclear why they have been given a whole paragraph.
    • Comprehensiveness. We need much more on history prior to the 1960s (e.g. Julius Caesar, Odoacer, hashashin and the Crusades, Medicis, Borgias etc), and a discussion of political effects (e.g. Archduke Ferdinand). Perhaps also practical matters (e.g. bodyguards, presidential limos).
    • Accuracy. I am no expert on the area, but a lot of it strikes me as opinionative stuff of doubtful reliability, e.g. "...paid killers have always been felt necessary...". I am also skeptical of the refutation of the common etymology of the name; if you exclude items derived from this page, it fails the Google test, whereas a few years ago I read a book on the hashashin where the first two or three chapters could be considered supportive of the conventional etymology. I don't think that paragraph should be included unless supportive evidence can be found.
    • POV. 100% of assassinations actually mentioned are actual or alleged acts of the US, and much of the last three paragraphs are just generally anti-US stuff that is not even related to assassination. I would at least completely remove the stuff that is not about assassination. -- Securiger 15:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, just to be really brief, I eliminated much of the discussion from later in the article as I saw little relation between that and the topic of assassination (what US troops in Afghanistan do hardly qualifies as relating to the subject, in my opinion) and tried to streamline it to provide a more smooth and coherent evaluation of the subject and relevant questions, with opposing views of each (not to mention historical evaluation). It almost feels like I've forgotten something, but I'm rather too tired to examine it now. :P Let me know what you all think of the changes, and if they constitute an improvement over the last.

Also, btw, can I get some clarification on the etymology? I'm a little hazy on that one, and think I may have mistaken it, so I'd appreciate a specific double-check on that.

Wally 04:13, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Added counter-measures section, would appreciate further comment!!!

Wally 03:07, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

  • Sorry, been very busy working and not checked in for a fortnight. At first glance seems much improved! Good work. Might do some more detailed proof-reading tomorrow, but off to sleep right now... Securiger 18:39, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No problem. Added the final section, "techniques". The links probably need more than a few fixes, and I haven't gone over it for grammar mistakes, but it's 95% complete. If you and others like what they see, I might be ambitious enough to put it up as an FA. :P Wally 03:41, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Also, as a note for Hans' Zarkov, I reverted on your note about execution because when a government performs an execution, it is not for reasons political but rather those of jurisprudence (murderers, for example, would never be confused for persons assassinated). Even those committing treason could be said simply to be executed, since while their rebellion is political, the punishment is not considered so, unless it's trumped up. If a government should authorize the killing of a foreign dignitary, or whatever, it clearly is assassination. The reason, therefore, I removed it is because I felt the distinction was already clear in the minds of even the most idle reasons and including the disclaimer would, indeed, cause more confusion than leaving it out.

Hit me back here or at my talk page to discuss more. Wally 03:51, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Removed Mary, Queen of Scots from list of Medeival assasination victims; she was executed in London in 1587. JHCC 13:30, 23 Mar 2004

no offense but this speculation on prehistorical assassination is kind of, you know, complete and utter guessing with no evidence to back you up.

Well, no offense...whoever you are, but I make it quite clear, I feel, that it is just that - speculation. That, and I think it's broad and plausible enough to be useful, if not certain - I've been able to find very little on prehistoric assassination and so resorted to conjecture. Do you have any specific objections to anything in there, or have anything to support/contradict me? If so, that would be very useful and productive to the article, and would be much appreciated. Wally 03:12, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This article, at present, reads a bit too much like propaganda.

Wiki, being in the US, has considerable latitude on free speech...

So when in doubt, be bold...

Let's explore in this article:

1. How are assassins selected? 2. How are they trained? 3. How do they, er, do their job? 4. How successful is it, anyway (in terms of target dying)? 5. How many are actually caught?

Leave the "is this a good idea?" for the reader. Inform, don't preach.

That being said, we seem to be focusing on the US and Israel too much. The UK also does it (via SAS, particularly in Northern Ireland), for example.

--Penta 03:54, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

For my information when I go back to edit, how/why/where does it sound like "propoganda", specifically? I just want to make sure I know, because this is what I saw as my level best to lay out both sides of each part of the discussion. The morality of assassins was pretty central to the whole discussion, I thought, so it at least deserved treatment - assuming it's possible to treat it, how do you think it could be done better?

Also, if you read the techniques and counter-techniques sections, I thought it rang out fairly well how they conduct the work. As for training and selection, that's out of my scope of expertise, unfortunately, so I could not speak to that. As for numbers 4 and 5, I think that information (ESPECIALLY number 4) would be kind of hard to work out, since it depends how you define an attempt on someone's life (just talking, plotting, setting up for the act, actually taking a shot?), and of all the assassinations and attempts in history (that we know of) I doubt there's a hard count.

However, any place where you think it could be made better, especially in NPOV, please let me know, I'd like very much to pinpoint that so I know where I tripped up. Wally 07:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, some quick thoughts. I'm kinda distracted, mind.
1. We leave out *why* Assassination is practiced in the modern age. There are many reasons, not just bloody-mindedness or doing it for the hell of it. Why modern states would assassinate people (whether it be the ticking bomb scenario (as in Gaza and the West Bank), the deterrence factor (Again, see the aforementioned regions; Hamas now has much of its comms and control capability in tatters because of Israeli direct action operations), or simply "We can't capture him, but can't leave him operational either") is as important as Should they or shouldn't they?
2. OK, so limit the period we try to count the attempts in. Try....since World War II.
3. NPOV...Hm. It just seems to focus on the US and Israel too much in its examples. Call it a gut feeling.

--Penta 15:01, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

More Examples, Color

Hey... wonderful article. I must say, it kept me reading. However, while examples have been drawn predominantly from Western countries (especially with the pictures), it might be good to add other stories. There is the famous story of Shivaji, a Hindu king of Western India... disarmed during 'peace' talks in an enemy Mughal general's camp, he used concealed tiger-claws to slash his captor's general's stomach apart. Then, there's the murder of Mahatma Gandhi, wherein the assassin, a man named Godse, did namaskar (placing palms flat together, a traditional Indian greeting) to conceal a pistol in his hands, thus allowing him to get close to the leader (surrounded by hordes of people) and shoot him.

So, you might want to improve on an already excellent page by diversifying examples. I don't want to put them in myself without consultation because the format is not conducive to people randomly inserting examples. I will write the text, however. But, aside from that, great show. --LordSuryaofShropshire 00:51, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Added brief mention of SAS operations in Northern Ireland

Figured I'd note here that I added a brief mention of SAS and FRU operations in Northern Ireland. --Penta 15:32, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks - I forgot all about that! :) Wally 17:53, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

see Talk:Assassin#UK assassinations

Regarding the intro sentence

The intro sentence as it stands now is In its most common use, assassin has come to mean someone who kills (assassinates) people selectively, usually for ideological or political reasons. I think this should make some mention of the fact that an assassin kills important people, but my edit was reverted. If I kill my neighbor because simply because he is of some certain political affiliation, does that make me an assassin? I'm going to stick the word "important" back in there unless someone can give me an explanation why it shouldn't be. -AndyCapp 04:31, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • I agree with the above. →Raul654 04:36, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like the best definition somehow. Perhaps people should be replaced by public figures instead? --Eequor 05:37, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Concur with Eequor and AndyCapp - I had misgivings about that sentence from the start. However, (going from the definition problems section) one could argue that any political or ideological killing is an assassination. I suggest, however, that further the word "significant" be prefixed to "public figures".
RE "Significant public figures" - assasination targets aren't always public figures: they can be people who are certainly significant in some way but are not generally known to the public at large.

sweeping changes

Also, reverted sweeping changes made today by someone who obviously had not been involved with the article, did not bother to post a message to the talk page explaining reasoning for the massive changes, or take note of the article's initial structure, intentions etc., even going so far as to make POV judgments re: Islam as well as reverting or altering previous passages beyond their original meaning and constituting a perversion thereof. Wally 01:23, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have to say I prefer it after having been swept up by wally. That being said, if the user who made the changes made them slower, I'm sure at least some of them would improve the article. Not any that I noticed tho, I will admit ;) Sam Spade 02:38, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
i user:badanedwa am the refered user. the edit summary is verbose, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Assassin&action=history. as stated in the edit summary, the article structure is good and is unchanged (one paragraph was restructured, to split it along subject lines). it contains no reversions. the reversion comment "this article would not be featured if it needed major changes..." is contradicted by the existence of Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. i have listed it here: Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates#assassin. user wally has asserted ownership of this article and reverted indiscriminantly, i have no use for a reversion war. wally is free to specify "pov judgments re: islam": that ismailism is a sub-sect of shi'a? that shi'a is a sect of islam? wally has restored materials which violate copyright, Wikipedia:Copyright_problems#april_27. bad prose, typography, etc should be fixed in any article. Badanedwa 03:34, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
After making those changes, Badanedwa also listed this article on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. I do not know how that page is supposed to work; it has only existed since 25th of March this year, and has no talk page. However the introductory paragraph gives as an example reason that "the page has since been changed". Of course this was done, but by Badanedwa! Claimed reasons were "extensive redundancies; copyvio; no pov changes; original scheme good, kept; typos; grammar; wiki links; cogency". With more than 300 changes in one edit, it's difficult to tell which is meant to be which! Glancing through them, a few seem quite reasonable, some definitely not (e.g. "In the final analysis, it has proven inevitable that assassinations will succeed if the murderer is willing to go the lengths necessary.", correctly spelled words changed to incorrect ones, etc.), but in most cases I cannot understand why an apparently arbitrary change was made. I certainly have no problem with adding links - as Wikipedia grows, most articles will continue to have links added from time to time, and this is almost always an improvement - but links were also removed. Why? At least, the changes other than adding links need to be broken up a bit so other editors can understand the reasoning. (And in particular, which is the alleged copy vio section, and why?). Finally, I agree with Wally about "pov judgments re: islam"; not objecting to adding the link to the Ismailis, but the tone of the paragraph has altered to make it sound more like an ordinary Islamic view. Securiger 03:42, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I reverted for exactly the reasons I specified on my summary, sir (And Securiger did an excellent job of addressing them). I'm not at all claiming ownership of this article, because it's not mine (and if you click on the difference between the current revision and my last major one, you'll notice there's been a high number of changes indeed - front page articles get that). However, from the beginning a very dedicated group of people have been working on this article (myself, Securiger, Raul654, etc.) and have put in not a few hours ensuring it reaches the place it is now (this is not even mentioning users like AndyCapp who, even though their question was but one of style, brought it here for discussion so that the people who built the article to what it is can have a say. Do I mind you making changes? Of course not. The writing may be good, but it's not perfect. Do I mind you making an extensive change, not just stylistically but also to the basic structure and/or information inherent in the article, and then shortly after listing it for removal from FA? Yes, I do. If you don't feel it's FA material, please list it and say so, because that's the post of the removal can. page - however, don't change it and then say the fixed version is hopeless. It toes the line between chasing your tail and trolling. What you did was technically fine, but practically such a sweeping edit was done in a very rude and uncivil way, especially given the level of other Wikipedians who passed through this article and found nothing major of the sort incorrect.
i suggest the copyrighted material be removed immediately, Wikipedia:Copyright_problems#april_27. "heretical" may be necessary, if islam -> shi'i -> ismail'i -> hashhashin doesn't illustrate it. others may restore my work if desired, but hair-trigger nastiness is not something i want to wade through. Badanedwa 22:18, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Does it really matter? The "copyrighted material" is one sentence and a sentence fragment. It's hard to construe that as plagiarism. --Eequor 23:46, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(<-- jump back to left to avoid falling off the edge). You might be able to argue in court that such a small fragment is fair use, but I dunno, I'm not a lawyer. It's simpler, and fairer in spirit, to change it. Basically someone back in early February copied a chunk of American Heritage Dictionary verbatim, someone else largely removed it but missed two sentences, which were subsequently edited only slightly. I think I've fixed them, see what you think.

Secondly, can we all please calm down? Wally seems to have construed Badanedwa's actions as some sort of attack, and is writing with a rather angry tone. Wally, I'm sure there was no such intention; please relax a little or you'll wikistress. Badanedwa, I'm not sure what you mean by claiming my points were "ad hominem"; my intention was to illustrate that, as it is human to err, within such a huge number of changes some are likely to be wrong. By making so many in one edit you make it very difficult for other editors to review them. The copy vio has now been dealt with, please continue working on the article - but in more tractable increments. Also, when I make large changes to an article, I provide an explanation in the talk page; the comment box doesn't really provide room to adequately explain large changes. I would like to recommend that practice. Securiger 02:23, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My apologies, to badanedwa and everyone. I got a little bit hot-headed before, and that was unnecessary and wrong-headed. However, as to the substance of what I said, and that of my revert, I stand beside my position as it was. I still feel what badanedwa did was unadvised, and stand-by my revert (and all the other changes made since my last of substance on 17 April) as the stronger version. However, where specific changes are concerned, I'd be happy to examine the major ones and have them submitted for general review - in whatever case, I feel that the vast majority of those made were either unnecessary, counter-productive, or both. Again, apologies for the overreaction, that pesky ego getting away from me again. :P Wally 00:22, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

UK assassinations

"The United Kingdom, through its Special Air Service and Force Research Unit have also conducted assassinations of Irish Republican Army members and sympathizers both in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the world."

UK assassinations of IRA members (and *sympathisers*)? This is thrown in like it's common knowledge but I'd like to see some more information on this please.

I checked up on this one in Secret Soldiers: Special Forces in the War Against Terrorism (a scholarly work of 620 pages and thousands of detailed references) as well as various press reports of the investigations. The frequently made allegation has been subject to both criminal investigation and various forms of inquiries - officially, privately, and by the Press. Of all this, the closest thing to substantiation is the proven fact that the Force Research Unit (a military intelligence unit largely unrelated to the SAS, but with some former members in its ranks) leaked information about IRA suspects to a "loyalist" (anti-IRA) paramilitary informer, Brian Nelson. Nelson was the intelligence officer of the Ulster Defence Association, and undoubtedly provided the authorities with valuable intelligence information on terrorist activities. But he also provided UDA with information supplied by his handlers, and this information was used in the assassination, by the UDA, of several IRA members and even of persons who were merely suspected of being IRA sympathisers. Nelson received a ten year prison sentence, and has since died from cancer. Whether Nelson's handlers were actively colluding, or simply spectacularly incompetent, remains a matter of controversy; the latest official report has recommended that Brigadier Gordon Kerr (commander of FRU at the time) be prosecuted. It should also be noted that at the time Nelson was infiltrated into the UDA, it was still a legal organisation whose terrorist activities were unproven; its banning as a terrorist organisation in 1991 was partly as a result of Nelson's information.
So I think we can say that the UDA conducted assassinations of Irish Republican Army members and sympathizers in Northern Ireland, and that the FRU probably colluded in this. However claims that the SAS were involved, that the FRU performed assassinations directly, or that such operations were carried out outside Northern Ireland, are at best unsubstantiated allegations from hostile sources, and in many cases nonsense (e.g. SAS troopers intercepting armed IRA men en route to a terrorist attack, kill them in ensuing gun fight; IRA sympathisers describe it as an "assassination"). Securiger 02:00, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I think the main incident for SAS action was Gibraltar. Although oreiginal reports did claim that the three IRA terrorists shot dead in 1988 had been armed, and had just planted a bomb, and that the SAS were therefore acting to prevent terrorism and believed their lives were in danger, eyewitness reports contradicted this and within days the Home Secretary (Geoffrey Howe) admitted that the three had not planted a bomb and had not been armed. More than that, intelligence supplied to the SAS indicating that the IRA had developed a remote detonator (the later defence used for the killings) turned out to be bogus.
Semtex and a timer were later found in a car connected to the three, parked in Spain. They almost certainly were going to blow something up, and the morality and legality of the killing is debatable, but it seems like a clear case of assassination. And Gibraltar is far from being the only time the SAS assassinated someone they suspected of being in the IRA - just the only time it was well-publicised (because there were eye-witness, and probably because the SAS men on the ground - though not their political masters - thought they were preventing an immediately imminent atrocity). Of course, if these actions were more well-known, the SAS wouldn't be doing the job it was created to do.
Your description above contains a number of widespread myths. For example your claim "intelligence ... indicating that the IRA had developed a remote detonator ... turned out to be bogus" is completely wrong. This particular IRA team turned out not to have such a detonator, but in fact the IRA had been using them for years, and had used one in a car bombing in Belgium just a few weeks before the Gibraltar operation. Likewise "... eyewitness reports contradicted this" refers to the impression given by a certain documentary maker, and by the families of the deceased, that many eyewitnesses saw the terrorists trying to surrender. In fact of 79 eyewitnesses, only three made statements that tended to support such a view. (Needless to say, these three were focussed on exclusively by those with an axe to grind, or seeking to stir controversy.) Two of these three were at a considerable distance from the events, and looking down at a steeply inclined angle. One thought one of the shooters jumped over a railing; the person who jumped the railing was actually a policeman arriving a few seconds later, which calls into doubt whether this witness actually saw the shooting at all.
I suggest you read McCann and Others v United Kingdom, which debunks a lot of the mythology surrounding this case. This is the report of the European Court case, and about the strongest condemnation by anyone who doesn't actually have an axe to grind. It is often cited as concluding that the three terrorists were unlawfully killed. In fact it does nothing of the sort; it finds that the soldiers acted lawfully and there was no conspiracy to kill the terrorists, but did find that the Gibraltar authorities showed "... a lack of appropriate care in the control and organisation of the arrest operation". That's all; the Court rejected all other claims. The Court's final decision on the issue of assassination is this: "The Court therefore rejects as unsubstantiated the applicants' allegations that the killing of the three suspects were premeditated or the product of a tacit agreement amongst those involved in the operation". Given that, regardless of whether one considers excessive force to have been used, it cannot possibly be counted as assassination. Securiger 05:45, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Some members of the intelligence services broke the law and supplied information too and aided loyalists in targeting Republicans. But that is a long way from the HMG authorising SAS conducted assassinations. Members of a ASU killed when carrying out an attack or conduction a reconnaissance may be unlawfully killed (for example if they attempt to surrender and are then shot) but they are not assassinated. Philip Baird Shearer 13:20, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

School of the Americas

As with the UK mention against the IRA, I have some problems with including the School of the Americas. Shouldn't the usage of the word "allege" tell us that this is unsubstantiated rumour? Unless we get an officer from the SOTA telling us that they have a course in Assassination 101, I would ask that we remove that reference. (it comes across as tepid, accusatory, and non NPOV). Davejenk1ns 19:46, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Normally I'd agree, but not only is there fair circumstantial evidence (testimonials and whatnot) floating around about the SotA, at the very least it's a rumor a lot of people have heard, and we can neither confirm nor deny it truthfully; however, since it is something people hear, it's addressed, with the word "allege".
Besides, it's really more of a "semi-substantiated rumor". :) Wally 03:16, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, it still doesn't belong here, until we see official or credible evidence of Assasination from the SotA. Much of the "evidence" out there is published by parties with specific political agendae and axes to grind against the school. Unfortunately, the school itself will never confirm or deny such policy. We might as well start putting "the CIA allegedly shot Kennedy" and "Jews allegedly masterminded 9/11". Once Wikipedia starts including rumours, it is a short hop to consipracy/polemic goofyland. Davejenk1ns 12:49, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. When a rumor is widely-known and has a dedicated group of adherents, and their allegations can neither be confirmed nor denied, we have a duty to at least note that a rumor does exist (and, to my mind, not necessarily such a silly one... no one I've queried has been able to give me a reasonable purpose for what SotA does do for their size and funding). But you have a very good point; it's not at all provable beyond a reasonable doubt. I still object to removing it all, but perhaps we could flesh it out a little more as a compromise?
Try this (out-of-context): "Many 'assassins' academies' are rumored to exist, covertly sponsored by major world governments. One name often mentioned is the School of the Americas, allegedly both run by the American CIA and home to, amongst others, the various Cuban exiles charged with removing Fidel Castro. Compelling and conclusive evidence, however, is rarely discovered to back up such claims." Wally 16:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
All that needs done is a Citation so that we can Verify who made the claims regarding the School of the Americas Sam Spade 05:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Start here? http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,583254,00.html

Just a quick link I pulled up, more to come when I can look into the subject a bit deeper. Wally 18:36, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Hrmmm, an op-ed piece from the Guardian doesn't hold much water for me, but... well, I am not trying to defend the SotA, but let's get back to the focus of this article: assasination. To say the SotA "teaches" assisnation is misplaced. It most likely teaches counter-insurgency, interrogation, commando tactics, and other unpleasantries of modern warfare, but the acutal skills of "assasination" can be found anywhere-- aim the gun, pull the trigger. (Remember Full Metal Jacket?). These skills are just that: skills. Assasination connotes (as stated in the article) killing in the name of a certain motivation (political, sexual, mental obsession). There must be a definable difference between assasination and simple combat killing.
Certainly, many graduates of the SotA are baddies, but Correlation is not causality. I would posit that pet officers of the nutjob running many of these banana republics end up being the ones to get chosen to go to Georgia (obviously an honor for a military man), but their disposition toward unseemly acts (inlcuding assasination) doesn't have much to do with the school. Davejenk1ns 11:30, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Minor nitpick

Mention's Charles Manson's cult as "anti-government neo-fascist" ... aren't those oxymoronic? Fascist being pro-gov't control? --anonymous

Not neccesarily. Though I wouldn't characterize the Family as "fascist" you could be an "anti-goverment fascist" assuming you mean the current goverment. A better term if we're going to adopt that label for them would be "revolutionary." In that they did plot the overthrow of the current world-order.

Assassination as military doctrine

I think a mention of the American's perception that Skorzeny's commandos were trying to assassinate Eisenhower during the Battle of the Bulge shows that military assassination, or the threat of it, if well timed can be a very effective tactical move. In an interview with the NYT Skorzeny denied that he had ever intended to assassinate Eisenhower and could prove it. (Page 155, Commando Extraordinary, by Charles Foley). There is also a mention in the same book (Page 35) of a British commando raid on "capture" Rommel. If he had been removed from the board, then that might well have had strategic effects. I think that these examples would help elucidate the points made. Also a mention and a link to Asymmetric warfare would be useful in this section. Philip Baird Shearer 00:47, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

dormant vandalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Assassin&diff=3632276&oldid=3607350 i have likely reverted all of it. Badanedwa 21:15, May 24, 2004 (UTC)

passive voice

is still used in most of the article. Badanedwa 05:10, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Is that a big thing, though? I had always thought passive voice was better if we're trying to maintain a more scholarly, objective take on things. Not sure, though. Wally 00:41, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ah, so you're right. In the next couple of days I'll go through it and fix up what I can, and you do the same, and we'll see if we can't knock this problem off. Thanks for noticing it! Wally 03:54, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I prefer avoiding passive voice whenever conveniently avoidable. This is to ensure readability. Sounding (or reading) scholarly is subservient. Mission9801 08:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


The passive voice should be avoided in all writing, especially "scholarly" writing. I believe that most academics would agree that the active voice is is not scholarly. More important, Can we get some clarification on the origin of the word though?

a list of assassinations would be useful

There are so many lists in Wikipedia, it seems a list of assassinations is in order--especially because the entry stakes a claim on a definition (even if this definition is emergent, or still-to-emerge). I think there are also factual issues to be checked. (What topic could possibly call more for fact-checking than this one???) This is important work. I have a dream that, in the future, people of the world can come here to find out what has happened...simple as that. Not to drag this out, but I stopped reading the article (I will go back and do my best to make as numerous and specific criticisms as I can) at the mention of John Lennon. I believe it was in a high school class that I was shown a documentary about Mark David Chapman, and it was obvious that this was not a "crazed fan" but an emissary, intended or not, of the fundamentalist church whose dogma he believed. I will do more research and fix the line, but it seems this article is FAR from finished. As long as I'm here, the entry for Robert Kennedy claims he was killed by Sirhan Sirhan's point-blank shot. This is somewhat disgraceful. Even-handedness is necessary. There are so many unaddressed details about this assassination, that there should be an article just on IT. At the very least, we must acknowledge that all witnesses and evidence placed Sirhan no closer than 3 feet to Kennedy.

Lee Harvey Oswald's murder not clear-cut assassination

The murder of Lee Harvey Oswald is not a clear-cut case of assassination. He was NOT a prominent person - as most definitions mention. His death is important mostly only because there was little chance to hear from him. Article on assasination should NOT make his murder so prominent, since there is doubt about whether or not his murder was an assassination. --JimWae 06:20, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

Requested move to Assassination

In staying with the convention of other articles such as murder or despotism, shouldn't this article be moved to assassination? It wouldn't make much sense for either of the articles used above as examples to be included under murderer or despot, so why is this one? --tomf688 (talk) 18:18, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. I vote yes. I also question if Dahlgren Affair - a botched raid that may or possibly may not have also been a botched assasination attempt should go in here. I am sure there are plenty of other botched assasination attempts that could go in here - including those against other US presidents (Jackson, FDR, Truman, Reagan, Ford ...) and plenty of other world leaders. I also find the sudden inclusion of several US-centric assassinations - without regard to era - breaks up the flow of the narrative.--JimWae 01:57, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
  • Support. I vote yes. Assassination is a more general term. Nobbie 13:02, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Support —Michael Z. 2005-04-1 00:06 Z

Decision

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 08:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:02, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Loaded term

is often considered to be a loaded term. is a weasel term who considers it a loaded term and why? Sources please --Philip Baird Shearer 14:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The original text is not mine, but I agree that the term does carry a negative connotation. I hope [1] is satisfactory. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 02:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
No it is not: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=assassination

If in place "murder of a public figure by surprise attack" is not sufficient to cover all assainations "to kill a public figure by surprise attack" would be closer. One could make a case for the use of the wrod murder, if murder is defined as "murder under the jurisdiction of the victim's legal system" --Philip Baird Shearer 11:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Which only proves the point. Legalese aside, the term murder is even more emotionally charged than killing. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 11:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

mergefrom Targeted killing

Targeted killing is in my opinion just a Euphemism (Doublespeak) for assassination. Having "Targeted killing" as a seperate article will lead to pov arguments in on other pages as two which is the correct term to use. EG as cropped up this week on State terrorism see Revision as of 10:22, 6 December 2005. At least if it is only a redirect the content can be kept in syncronisation which will reduce the likelyhood that there will be revert wars. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposal: as the article corrrectly states, assassination is a loaded term, especially in the wartime context, and therefore would violate WP:NPOV.
Examples of asassination: Leon Trotsky, JFK, Ghandi. Examples of targeted killing: Hamas "engineer" bombmaker Yahya Ayyash or Rigoberto Alpizar. Regrettably, sometimes police or military operations involve killing an offender in order to save innocent lives. Let's not mix an arsonist with a firefigther.
Euphemism#Doublespeak "attempts to confuse and conceal the truth" - I don't see how this is applicable here. Please explain. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 05:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Who is to judge who is the "arsonist" with a "firefigther", or who is the terrorist and the freedom fighter? I do not think that assassination is a loaded term and if you look a the previous section in this article I have asked for a source which says that it is. See List of assassinated people#israel and Palestinian Authority Territories Your idea would suggest that we need two list one for "List of assassinated people" and another for "List of targeted killed people" Who is to judge who goes in which list? For example was Rehavam Zeevi "targeted killed" if not then what about Sheikh Ahmed Yassin?

In American domestic politics there is a need for them to use a different term if the American executive is to assassinate a forigner, but that does not make the word itself a "load term". Many English spleaking countries now have a "ministry of defence" which were previously called "ministry of war" but that does not make war a "loaded term".

As I pointed out on the Talk:Targeted killing, assasination covers both peace time and war time "targeted killings" and on both sides of the fence for example:

--Philip Baird Shearer 10:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I provided the requested reference. Are you comforable calling the killing Rigoberto Alpizar an assassination? I am not. Of course there is some overlapping between the two terms, but I don't think it warrants the merge. The current definition of TK applies when "anticipated acts of terrorism are prevented by killing a person deemed to be related to those acts." ←Humus sapiens←ну? 11:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Rigoberto Alpizar (who I had never heard of before) was not assassinated or "targeted killed" any more than Jean Charles de Menezes was they were either murdered or lawfully killed.

In the definition "anticipated acts of terrorism are prevented by killing a person deemed to be related to those acts." Who defines who is a terrorist? If I were paranoid I might decide someone was trying to kill me and be terrified at the thought. If I were to kill that person would that be a targeted killing?

Few it any would say that an IRA Active Service Unit member killed when on active service were "assassinated" or "targeted killed", any more than they would do so for any member of military unit engaged in warfare eg Mairead Farrell (leader of the Gibraltar three) who was killed in 1988 [2]. They are more likely to say "who?", "don't know", "lawfully killed" or "murdered" (as she was unarmed) depending on interest and political affiliation. If she was subject to "targeted killing" then when Michael Stone was bundled into a black taxi boot after his grenade attack at the funeral of the three, was that an attempted "targeted killing" as it stopped an act of terrorism by attempting to kill a person deemed to be related to those acts[3]? The two British Army soldiers dragged from their car and killed by an IRA mob a week later at the funeral of one of those killed by Stone [4] could by the definition you gave be called targeted killed. Because the people at the funeral were anticipating an act of terrorism and prevented it by killing two persons deemed to be related to the anticipated act. Seems to me that the definition can be used to justify an awful lot of killings which are not assassinations, so why is it that most of the times that the US administration uses the term it is used for assassinations? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

It was your idea that these terms are interchangeable, and now you are asking why one is not used instead of another? See their respective definitions: they have different meanings. Also, the word assassination has negative emotional/ideological/political overtones. Intentionally or not, your proposed merge would lead to losing that difference and imposing POV. I hope this answer satisfies your concerns. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 01:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

No, it does not. I find using examples helps to clarify meanings, so please explain why the above are or are not "targeted killings" as to my mind they fit the definition you have given "anticipated acts of terrorism are prevented by killing a person deemed to be related to those acts", which to me makes the definition almost useless.

Also you have not answered the question: who defines who is a terrorist? For example when the IRA tried to take out the British Cabinet in 1991 during the first Gulf war, as the IRA believe that the British had a "shoot to kill" policy against them in Northen Ireland was that attack a "targeted killing" attempt? If not why not? --Philip Baird Shearer 11:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Please see moral equivalence. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you implying that people at the funerals were less than moraly equivalent to others? Further Wikipedia has a stated policy WP:NPOV. And you still have not answered the questions I have posed:

  • please explain why the above are or are not "targeted killings".
  • who defines who is a terrorist? (see example).

--Philip Baird Shearer 14:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

In case I didn't make this clear earlier: we need a separate article because "targeted killing" is a stated policy. It is because of WP:NPOV policy we need an alternative to emotionally/ideologically charged terms like "assassination".
Who defines: my or your opinion don't matter. It would be wrong to redirect or merge TK into "assassination" because the opinions of authoritative sources differ, and the article's intro honestly says "controversial" and includes links arguing various cases. I invite you to collaboratively improve the quality of WP articles in neutral way. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 23:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

"targeted killing" is a stated policy. Who's stated Policy?

  • Just because a person or organisation uses an euphemism for something does not mean that the euphemism is a valid distiction from a common English word. A British civil servent became famous when he said he was being "economical with the truth", that does not mean that most people considered what he was doing was lying.

You have still not answered my questons:

  • Are you implying that people at the funerals were less than moraly equivalent to others?
  • please explain why the above are or are not "targeted killings".
  • who defines who is a terrorist? (see example). --Philip Baird Shearer 00:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge. Per User:Philip Baird Shearer. Targeted killings just is another way of carrying out assassinations. Killing somebody is rarely neutral, it will be difficult bypassing the debate. Tazmaniacs 13:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Merge completed (Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words). Tazmaniacs 16:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

I don't think that the conspiracy theories are off topic, I think they directly relate to the effects of assassination on society, and are a result of assassination itself. I think the Wikipedian who posted it did a fair amount of research and documentation, I think it should be left in. Chris 22:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Which was that? I've been away from the page for awhile. Wally 01:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

From the histoy of the Article: mark for cleanup, see critique on talk page User:BluePlatypus 22:00, 23 January 2006

This article is very unencylopedic in scope and style. It needs a lot of work. A lot of things need sourcing, like: * One remarkable recent example involved a political figure who made the mistake of keeping to a regular route and schedule. - Who, When? How recently?

  • indeed, the death in battle of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, while not an assassination, led directly to the Catholic defeat at Lützen as the infuriated Swedes rallied behind their fallen leader .. Says who? I've never heard the battle described that way, and I've read accounts of it in several history books. They all describe the battle as having been won despite the loss of the King, not thanks to it. And the Wikipedia article on the battle corroberates that with: A panic began among the Protestant ranks, made worse as rumours spread of the king's death..
  • The overall style is rambling and imprecise. Full of "weasel-words" and sweeping generalizations. It reads like a high-school report, not an encyclopedic entry.
  • No sources, and the impression I get is that most of the article is based on the authors' personal opinions, i.e. original research.

Another example: As the Middle Ages came about from the fall of the Roman Empire, the moral and ethical dimensions of what was before a simple political tool began to take shape.

First off, it's factually wrong. The Middle ages started centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. Secondly, it's intent is wrong: There were no ethical dimensions to assassination prior to the Middle Ages? I find that hard to believe. Who says the 'ethical dimensions' began to take shape then, other than the author?

Although in that period intentional regicide was an extremely rare occurrence

Says who? I don't believe regicide was 'extremely rare' in the Dark Ages at all.

the situation changed dramatically with the Renaissance when the ideas of tyrannomachy (i.e. killing of a King when his rule becomes tyrannical) re-emerged and gained recognition.

How can it re-emerge if it didn't go away?

There were notable detractors, however; Abd-ul-Mejid of the Ottoman Empire refused to put to death plotters against his life during his reign.

Anachronism, Abd-ul-Mejid didn't live anytime near the renaissance, you can't skip four centuries like that.

As the world moved into the present day and the stakes in political clashes of will continued to grow to a global scale, the number of assassinations concurrently multiplied.

Weaselly and interpretive. Multiplied according to who? Any figures on that?

I could continue through the entire article. But I've made my point. --BluePlatypus 21:56, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare invented the word ASSASSINATION!!!

I never knew until someone told me (an English teacher- who is backed up by a search for "Who invented the word assassination?") so it really seems like something that should be featured in the article. 82.5.225.131 19:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Offensive

Many things in this article (particularly in the etymology section) are offensive to the Nizari Ismaili sect of Islam. For example, 'notion of a hazir imam'. I urge writers to be more conscious of the beliefs of others.

Someone in this talk insisted that the term does not carry emotional/ideological connotations. While this premise is highly questionable, the article as it stands now is not written from NPOV. Hence the tag. You can't have it both ways. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why there should be any question of the etymology. Arabic: حشاشين, translates as 'consumers of hashish', hashish (حش) being the arabic word for grass and referring quite specifically in this since to marijuana. According to the Encyclopedia of Islam: "Derived from the Arabic hashshashin, 'consumers of hashish', through Medieval Latin assassini. The name was adapted by crusaders for members of the Nizārī branch of the Ismā'īlīs at a period when the sect was characterized by extreme militancy." A basic understanding of how words are formed in Arabic would rid someone of the confusion of the origin of the word. -Yung Wei 綪永徽 15:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Please be specific. --68.214.35.104 05:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

etymology through حشاشين + assassini

i have edited the etymology section, adding arabic script and some details to the actual etymology. i have also removed the folk etymologies that had been placed there. neither of these two which i have deleted were accurate and do not stand up to even cursory investigation. additionally before making this edit i consulted multiple arabic dictionaries and mid-east related encyclopedias and dictionaries. this should end any further dispute regarding the etymology. -Yung Wei 綪永徽 2 April 2006

TEDDY Roosevelt

Hi,

I came to this page after reading Time magazines bio on TEDDY Roosevelt. It mentions an assasination attemp on him. He was shot while campainging (as a private citizen) for the presidency and his Bull Moose 3rd Party. He had a steel eyeglass case and thick speech in his breast pocket which slowed, but did not stop the bullet. Although he was not president at the time, seems like he should be on your list of notable assisination attempts. Along with any other serious presidential candidates who've been shot at. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.24.227.102 (talk • contribs) 23:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoken Article

I am going to work on making this a spoken article. Mk623SC20K 02:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Iffy sentence

In the U.S. section: "On December 3, 2005, the US was blamed for another incident, in which alleged al-Qaeda #3 man (operations chief Abu Hamza Rabia) was reportedly killed in Pakistan by an airborne missile, together with four associates."

Does this violate WP:NPOV? also, "#3 man" is pretty informal language for an encyclopedia. Unfortunately I don't know how to fix this myself. —EdGl 01:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont think its a strong POV thing. #3 looks to be a grammar issue. you could say the "third in command" rather than #3 man.
The second item looks to be just phrasing. Rather than "the US was blamed" it could be rephrased "the US was suspected by some"... Since a footnote citation is given as to the surce of the claim, it doesn't look to be a major POV (if any at all) thing here.

King & Davis & Che

There is no mention in the article of the murder of Martin Luther King. Though not elected to public office, his case is one of even greater political involvement than John Lennon - and so would be a "harder case" to classify.

Che Guevara would be another "hard case" to classify, I think.

The Dahlgren Affair was not an unambiguous attempt at targeted killing of only specific individuals. It was a planned attack on an entire city in time of war, apparently including the killing of the leaders of the rebellion. Should all killings during war of leaders of opposing forces (military leaders as well as political) be counted as assassinations?

--JimWae 05:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Good question. War and political leaders are a legitimate target in a conflict, provided an official state of war as recognized under international rules of war exists. The hit on Yamamoto during WWII is part of the game as was cruise missle strikes against Saddam's palaces. Che's case is more difficult. He was leading an armed band in Bolivia, directly engaged in armed guerrilla operations, but he was also operating outside the rules of the Geneva Convention in many ways, such as lack of clear, consistent combatant identification. Some would argue that he thus was not entitled to any Geneva protections, in the same way that the Sept 11 bombers (or any other suicide bombers) are not entitled to Geneva Protections since they ignore its rules to gain tactical advantage. Running for Geneva Cover after capture, after cynically ignoring or violating it before when it was convenient, smacks to many of hypocrisy, and of handing murderous terrorists another way to game the system. Arguments to the contrary could of course be made. It is weird that Martin Luther King is not even mentioned on this article, whereas marginal (in this context) entertainment industry figures like Marvin Gaye and Jodie Foster are.

Fidel Castro body double

The article states that "The late Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin, Cuban ruler Fidel Castro and Saddam Hussein all used body doubles". An editor has pointed out this Fox news source [5] which says the same thing. Now I'm 95% certain that in the case of Castro, this is not true and is at best an urban myth. Castro frequently appeared in public with minimal security in comparison to most leaders, was famous in Cuba for wandering out on his own, boasted that he didn't even wear a bullet proof vest on a visit to New York - and proved it - etc etc. I heard an unlikely story that older brother Ramon acted as a body double - which came from anti-Casto activists and had very little credibility. Regardless of what Fox news or a US army guy says it runs contrary to well documented evidence, neither of the above should be considered a credible source on Cuba by the way.--Zleitzen 15:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That's fine that you feel that way, but if an expert on the subject claims it it's worth putting in there. I also made sure it just says that 'he believes', and that there is no conclusive proof. If someone wants to draw the conclusion that he's biased for whatever reason that's fine. But it's not a requirement that we state that is the ONLY source that says this, we can't verify there are no other sources, but we can verify that is a valid source. Now I personally have no love for Fox News, but it is a major media outlet, and Reeder is a qualified person to quote, it's not like we're quoting O'Reilly or something. LilDice 15:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Simple analysis of authority expel this argument. "US army guy" vs. some anon. person registered on Wikipedia...hmm, wonder where the more reliable knowledge lies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadowrun (talk • contribs) 20:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
After Castro survived numerous assassination attempts made by the US alone, you'd have to prove that he did not have doubles running around as decoys. It's an incredibly simple security measure and obviously one that can be ready made to fool foreign intelligence services looking to knock a leader off. Despite the ban on directly killing heads of state, the US has a neat little habit of diverting munitions to military targets of opportunity that just happen to be holding heads of state. Shadowrun 20:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
One cannot easily prove a negative. One can only point out that there is acres of material showing Castro wandering around Havana and elsewhere with minimal security - the numerous occasions he has slipped out into the night whilst on foreign visits - even in the States. The numerous serious biographies that have never mentioned a body double. One can also point out the credibility of the source. Either a US intelligence guy on Cuba is honest, accurate and correct on the subject of Fidel Castro, or two million Cubans who live in Havana and have often witnessed the very real Fidel Castro wandering the streets are correct. It matters little, but I trust the residents of Havana - my own eyes - and a knowledge of the subject – over some "US army guy". Anyway, some WP:ATT has been applied on the page now so there is less concern about a claim being presented as fact. --Zleitzen 23:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
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