Talk:Aslan
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[edit] Persian Empire Turkish???=
Persians and Turks are two completely different ethnic groups, and the Persian Empire was never ruled by Turks. True, Seljuk Turks ruled Persia at one point, but the Persian Empire refers mostly to the Achaemenid and possibly the Sassanian dynasties. I've gone ahead and removed those three words of the article to prevent misinformation.
[edit] Image concerns
I sure hope that picture is public domain. Absolutely none of Lewis's work is, and I doubt that any "supporting" material such as artwork is.
- What picture? Just because an image isn't public domain doesn't mean it can't be used. It's preferrable to use non-copyrighted images, but not always necessary to. I think I'll add a fair use image.
Theshibboleth 01:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Allegorical figure
My understanding is that Aslan is not an "allegorical Christ figure" - he is Christ. -- Paul A 05:38 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
- No, Aslan is definitely not Christ. Christ doesn't look like a lion. Aslan is meant to represent Christ, though, which is exactly what the phrase "allegorical Christ figure" means. Similarly, Tash is not Satan, Narnia is not Earth,... —ajo 9 Feb 2005
- Aslan is indeed an allegorical figure. Just because Lewis said he wasn't doesn't make it true. Theshibboleth 01:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
actually I do believe that even Aslan himself says that he is known under another name in our world, which even I assumed meant that he was actually Christ in our world, but the lion in Narnia.
What C.S. Lewis wrote in a letter to a young reader is telling:
- As to Aslan's other name, well I want you to guess. Has there never been anyone in this world who
- (1.) Arrived at the same time as Father Christmas.
- (2.) Said he was the son of the great Emperor.
- (3.) gave himself up for someone else's fault to be jeered at and killed by wicked people.
- (4.) Came to life again.
- (5.) Is sometimes spoken of as a Lamb....
- Don't you really know His name in this world. Think it over and let me know your answer! (Dorsett 32)
How much Aslan is an allegory/representation/symbolism/reincarnation/image or another version of Christ, or how much he 'is' tautosymous to Christ, and to which levels each, can't be explained by anyone, since Narnia's nature related to our world, can't be defined. The following explanations are equally possible:
- There is ONE original Christ that comes to every world in its own version (Aslan in Narnia, Jesus in Earth)
- Jesus himself was reborn in Narnia as Aslan
- Aslan is 'twin' to Jesus, but not the same person.
- Aslan is the son of Narnia God, which is different to ours, whose son is Jesus, so it's just the Narnian homologous to Jesus
- Jesus is the original and Aslan just a lesser copy to fulfill his own plans
I believe it is pretty apparent that Aslan is supposed to actually BE Christ, the second person of the Trinity in Christian theology, but in a different form. In his space trilogy, Lewis also explores the idea of Christ's presence in other world that we know nothing about, such as on Mars, which in "Out of the Silent Planet" is called Malacandra, where he is known as Maleldil to the resident populations. Only, Malacandra is an unfallen world and thus Christ has never directly interviened in its history as he did on earth, and in which angels, known as Eldils, handle things. Earth is called Thulcandra or "the Silent Planet" and is considered by the native population to be "enemy occupied territory" under assult by a rebel Eldil (Satan), and even the Eldils have never heard anything about it except that. Narnia, in this way, is like earth, fallen because the seeds of sorrow have been sown in it by the White Witch, who was only brought there because Digory succubed to the temptation to ring the bell in Charn that woke her up. Likewise, Christ appears in a physical form to the Narnians from time to time because Narnia, like earth, needs Him.
Aslan is a fictionalization of Christ; Just like Mel Gibson's Christ "is" not Christ, it is a representation of Christ. The same goes for Aslan. Hell, even the gospels are an account of Christ, and thereby an "artist's impression". This is true regardless of whether you hold that Christ has an independent historical and/or spiritual reality. Aslan "is" Christ exactly as far as Narnia "exists" (i.e. he "is" Christ in as far you can accept fantasy as some sort of reality, as per On Fairy-Stories. dab (ᛏ) 15:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Given the multiverse depicted in The Magician's Nephew, it seems clear to me personally, as a fan, that Aslan is the corporeal embodiment and incarnation of the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, in the universe of Narnia, as Jesus of Nazareth is in the universe of Earth. Parallel incarnations, with the same soul/controlling entity/mind. Though multiversal speculative fiction was not expounded much during Lewis' time, his reasoning was consistent. If God is omnipresent, does that mean He can be multipresent, if He so wishes? This matches the appearance of The Father as the Emperor Beyond The Seas in Narnia and Eru Ilúvatar in Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings. As for Aslan's presence at creation and lack of depicted parents weakening the parallel, one could argue that since Narnia never had a specific Fall From Grace event (again, see The Magician's Nephew), the separation from God never occurred, and Aslan was not required to come in the flesh of a promised bloodline. BlueNight 19:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
As a Theistic Christian writer myself, I have noted that in all my own, and others, writings that God is God no matter where you (the reader) go. In other words, if there are other worlds, then God created them. Otherwise God would be finite in a way, being God of some realms but not others, and not truly be the Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent being that Christian Theology makes Him out to be. So yes, in C. S. Lewis's writing, Aslan is God incarnate, aka The Son of God. It sure gets complicated if you go deep enough, lol. Doncroft 20:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origin of name
We had an e-mail at the help desk claiming that Aslan was originally a Farsi term and the Turks adopted it. He supplied corraborating evidence one of which I attached. Capitalistroadster 01:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
According to Türk Dil Kurumu [1] (Turkish Language Association), aslan (arslan) word is originally Turkish. [2] [3] 81.213.204.253 18:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The word used for lion in Persian is "Shir", if they also use Aslan then they have loaned that word from Turkish. The place to look for a word's etymology is not an amateur website but rather professional organizations and linguists.
- the term didn't mean "lion" in Old Persian, but it was some epithet of rulers. The Turks loaned the term, and interpreted it to mean "lion". So the word is indeed from Persian, but it means "lion" only in Turkish, and not (afaik) in Persian. dab (ᛏ) 15:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
How can you make such a claim that arslan/aslan did not mean "lion" in Turkish before they "interpreted" it to mean "lion?" Or are you claiming that Turks did not have a word for lion back then? What is your proof? -Lugalbanda
[edit] disambiguation?
Aslan, as variant of Arslan, "the Lion" is notable as an Ottoman/Turkish title. In the interest of dispelling the impression that this is "the encyclopedia that Slashdot built", I propose we move this to Aslan (Narnia) and make this the dab page, or at least put the Turkish "etymology" right at the beginning. dab (ᛏ) 15:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Sources and Relevance
There are a few assertations lacking sources, such as the last line in the opening paragraph referring to "a paper published later in his life." Also, there are a few quotations which I assume were taken from the books that haven't been cited.
Also, I don't see the relevance of mentioning Qui-Gon Jinn in the Portrayals... section. The whole article seems a touch rambly without a clear purpose. It's been a long while since I've read the books, so I'd just like to bring that up if anyone else is qualified and willing to organize the article. --Keitei (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Appeared in all books?
Did Aslan actually appear in all books? I know he was _mentioned_ in "The Horse and His Boy", but my understanding was that he didn't actually show up in that one. My copy has wandered, or else I'd have checked this already. --Christopher Thomas 05:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Aslan appears in the last half of Chapter 9 of "The Horse and His Boy." --Jobongo 14:20, 14 Jun 2006 (UTC)
- …when he tells Shasta that it was he who was the cat and the lion who attacked Hwin and Bree, et. al. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Just a thank you for this entry
Aslan was my first vision of a higher power, as a child, and now in midlife, I have returned to Lewis' creation when I reach for the concept of my higher power. This page is both factual and respectful to those of us who do so (and I don't think I'm the only one).
[edit] Request for expansion
This article does dreadful justice to Aslan, barely covers his role in the books and instead lingers on the allegory. I think involvement in each of the stories is a priority in this article. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 05:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'll expand the article. First, however, could people tell me what should be included, and what is too trivial for the biography section?
- You might look at this CharacterTemplate that we're working on at WikiProject Narnia. It should work for any Narnian character, but Aslan is "the" Narnian character, so perhaps some changes will be in order. LloydSommerer 03:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poor Quality
This whole article is pretty bad, especially the section on The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe. I don't know enough about Narnia to really clean it up, but I cleaned some of the bad spacing, and I'll go and get the grammar errors if I get a chance
That would be much appreciated. The Narnia universe really needs a tune up as far as Wikipedia is concerned. --Doncroft 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Main Character?
Would you really consider Aslan to be the main character from all the stories? Certainly he (He, whatever) has appeared in all the books, but he doesn't truly possess the qualities of a main character. He usually doesn't engage in the story's conflict, the stories' events don't center around his actions, and he usually only makes an appearance near the end of the books. An important, and powerful character, but not suitable as the protagonist of the The Chronicles of Narnia as a whole. --Wikiwow 14:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, not the protagonist, but certainly the most important. He employs other characters, children, to lead theaction for him. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 16:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Alright, alright, I could see Aslan as important, even the most important character in the series, but there is a difference between the main character and a vital character. If I may, note the Wikipedia article for protagonist:
The protagonist or main character is the central figure of a story.
The protagonist is [also] characterized by his/her ability to change or evolve. Although a novel may center around the actions of another character, as in Herman Melville's "Bartleby the Scrivener", it is the dynamic character that typically allows the novel to progress in a manner that is conducive to the thesis of the work and earns the respect or attention of the audience.
-
- Aslan doesn't do that much changing or evolving throughout the stories, whilst you see the children from every individual book growing and gaining maturity and qualities of heroes and all that...Furthermore, Aslan's actions aren't truly the center of the novels, as they usually revolve around the quests of other heroes, andit is their actions that allow the story's plot to progress. Aslan is more like a--what's the word--like Obi-Wan from Star Wars (I know, stupid comparison, but it makes sense): both of them tutor and/or guide the main characters along while remaining prominent figures (I never actually saw the first 4 Star Wars movies, but my friend told me about them), but not main characters. A little more convincing? I'm not doubting Aslan's importance, only his role as protagonist in the story. --Wikiwow 20:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the Category of Fictional messiahs? Has it been deleted or re-named.
[edit] Lion (capitalized) vs lion (lowercase)
(From article)Lewis often capitalises the word Lion, to convey the reverence the characters feel toward him.
It is my understanding that it is specifically TALKING animals that are capitalized. Aslan is capable of speech, and thus is a Lion instead of a lion. BirdbrainedPhoenix 01:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- That is my understanding, too. I seem to recall a line or two that actually clarified the distinction within the text, possibly in The Silver Chair, but it's been a while. Lilitou 04:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Epic Movie Reference
I was puzzled by the frequent changes to this reference, so I looked up the credits on IMDB and found that the character is listed as the "White Bitch". I haven't seen the movie, but perhaps someone could summarize what happens so that we can come to a consensus on what should be reported on the main page. Dfmclean 12:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The power of his song vs His power
I think that the original statement (The power of his song) is more specific and, therefore, meaningful. Unless there is an objection, I intend to change it back. Dfmclean 16:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] British vs American spelling
So has it been decided to use British spelling in this article, then? Is there a policy for making this decision? Dfmclean 14:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- We're actually using British spelling on all of the Narnia articles (whenever someone who knows what it is decides to change it and until someone who didn't have any idea that that is what we're doing changes it back). The general rule is that British subjects get British spelling and American topics get American spellings. Here are some references:
- This final sentence is completely superficial, and exists only as a spot to which a signature may be attached. LloydSommerer 02:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
the word "Aslan" is used too in caucasus, and the caucasian nations are much more ancient than turkic nations, and turkic nations were nomadic tribes, which the nomad life influenced their language too by "borrowing" words from other nations, it is known that turkic nations once occupied the caucasus, so it can be that the word "Aslan" came from native caucasian tribes.Andynapso (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Aravis's whipping
The article currently states:
- (Aslan later explains that his treatment of Aravis is punishment for a previous action. When she ran away from home, she left while her servant was sleeping, with no thought about the punishment the servant would receive. The cuts on her back were equal to the damage done when the servant was whipped.)
As I recall, she specifically caused the servant to oversleep; it was an active crime, rather than a passive one. I can't think how to word it to compass that concept accurately and briefly, though. Rosuav (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
